Country Visa, City Visa

kaurasach:
We are not under an islamic sultanat now, so there`s no use bringing in old metaphors. In any case, if the `oil and water`, to use your phrase, cannot coexist, what kind of fences will you build in India for your 150 million compatriots?

Reply #26.
Amit,
Hindus and muslims has not co-existed peacefully as you feel. India has hindu majority after part of it has been cut i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh. 150 million in Pak and another 130 million in Bangla and 140 million in India. There were hindus even in Afghanistan. That totals nearly half billion. Hindus would be around 750 million and muslims are around 500 million in the indian sub continent.
There has been huge massacres of hindus by muslims in past 1000 years.
Do you know what ``Hindu Kush`` really mean (Hindu kush is a mountain range bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan). It means ``Hindu Slaughter``.
No doubt that there are lot of Muslims who are tolerant of hindus but still precaution needs to be taken. There is no need of euphoria. Still indian soldiers are being killed in Kashmir.

Re:kaurasach#24

Please explain how did hindus and muslims coexist for a 1000 years? How come India has hindu majority even after 700 years of muslims rule?

Also, why are ordinary people on both sides so warm with each other, and especially so in the past 2 years? Why do shopkeepers on both sides refuse to take money from the visitors? Are leftists and peaceniks bribing them to be nice to the visitors from the other side?

Look, it is okay to recognize differences but we should balance that with the similarities.

Amit,
I agree with your basic idea, but I think in your eagerness for better relations you are ignoring a lot of things. I think the best approach towards better relations including better treatment for each other visitors is to make gradual changes. Its better to go slow, let things settle and go forward.

Amit,

I suggest you read the history carefully. Not gulp down the sanitized hogwash the schools in India, and leftists and peacenicks concoct.

Go talk to Hindus living amongst muslims and vice versa. Not the `face` and `show` they present in front of a stranger. Go to UP (Delhi will probably do too) and do this experiment. Then, make these remarks.

Re:vivek

I acknowledge that there are differences between hindus and muslims. The question is that of magnitude. Kaurasach implied it is like oil and water. I do not agree with that at all, since that would indicate total incompatibility. That is simply not true given that Pakistan looks and feels exactly like India and the culture is almost identical. The events of 1947 were more of an outlier than an indicator of our true feelings. We got carried away with the events at that time and it was collective insanity. However, there were never riots of that vicious nature prior to 1947 or even afterwards. We cannot let temporary insanity define our attitudes forever. We had temporary insanity between hindus and sikhs in 1984, but it does not mean that we cannot coexist now.

Pakistani artistes should exploit their hugely popularity in the large Indian market. Adnan Sami appears to be minting money. I doubt that he is the only talent Pakistan has to offer.

Amit,

Go talk to hindus and muslims, where they interact and coexist `pecaefully`. you will find under calm water there are strong currents. The hatred is in the eyes, the gestures.....the words they use for each other and others` gods.

I`ve heard and seen it. The only reason violence doesn`t break up are the fear of consequences.

Regarding the treatment of Ind/Pak visiting the other country, one wishes that things be more civil, but the visit to the police station helps in documentation. How else would you track the visitor from the not-so friendly country.

amit #18,
Differences between Hindus and Muslims were always there. There were many instances of hindu/muslims riots prior to 47, but as Indians have always been poor at documenting history, these instances were not properly recorded. But ask rural folks and they would several instances of such riots as their ancestors had told them.

Re:kaurasach#16

I am sure the French, British and the Germans thought of each other as oil and water 100 years back. In fact, the Germans were protrayed as Teutonic monsters in the British media prior to WWII, who could not coexist with anyone. The US and Russians thought of each other as oil and water. In South Africa, whites and blacks thought of each other as oil and water. All that has proven to be bogus.

In the subcontinent, show me one incident prior to 1947 where hindus and muslims were at each other`s throats on a wholesale basis. We lived together and coexisted just fine, whether it be Mughal rule, Sikh rule or British rule. There were minor quarrels but no large-scale communal violence. The muslims in Pakistan i.e. Punjabi and Sindhi muslims, never attacked anyone in North India. All attacks were by outsiders like Ghaznavi, Ghauri. Even today after 60 years of virtual apartheid, Indians and Pakistanis are similar to each other and are so warm with each other. We are not like Israelis and Palestinians who will spit at each other and kill each other`s children. They literally cannot coexist. Our case is totally different. We have a love and hate relationship like two estranged lovers. When we are by ourselves, we hate the other side, but when we meet we totally melt. It is kind of weird but not hopeless :-).

Re:b_banth#13

There is no doubt that India and Pakistan need to make some accommodation on Kashmir, similar to the Northern Ireland agreement. That kind of win-win compromise solution is possible only when we start interacting with each other in a normal way. Even after all the bonhomie, there is still a long way to go. We still cannot travel in a normal way to each other`s country. The trust levels are low as shown by the postings on this board and elsewhere. We still have defence spending specific against the other side like F16 aircrafts. We have little trade from an official perspective and Pakistan still does not give MFN status to India. So while we have made progress, a lot remains to be done to build trust and confidence in each other, as well as make the whole process irreversible with strong economic linkage.

I think the easier things to accomplish in the next round would be Siachen and Baglihar dam, along with more travel links, relaxed visas, troop reductions in Kashmir and startup of trade (MFN, transit to Central Asia).

DM,

I respect your consistently clear and balanced outlook on many issues. But you are naive on the Indo/Pak and Hindu/Muslim`s this aspect of the issues. You cannot mix oil and water. It is politically incorect, yet it is the bitter truth.

A practising Hindu and a practising muslim cannot coexist. It has nothing to do with prejudices. You shouldn`t create or repeat the conditions to once again blowup like 47 and many other small blowups.

Under optimistic hope, the two can live as good neighbors with good fence, thats about it.

b_banth#13:

With all due respect, it is not India that derails the normalisation process nor is it the core issue that does it, but it is Pakistan`s obsession with the core issue which always has and probably will derail the process again. Let`s learn from India-China and China-Taiwan how countries can maintain their postions while normalisation continues. It appears, for instance, that after several years of progress on normalisation, China and India are now addressing the intractable core boundary issue facing them. It also seems that the talks are proceeding without any of the tensions which surround any Kashmir talks and prevents the parties from making the kind of accomodation to the other`s point of view which is needed to resolve long standing intractable issues.
So, let the people meet. Let the old prejudices disappear. Let the atmosphere of friendship bloom to create the right conditions for a rapproachment on the core issue.

Re: # 13 Dr. Tallat Abid

yet another paki ``Doctor`` pontificating on ``core issue``.

Its call of the hour that India and Pakistan should alleviate or at least ease visa restrictions policies. But intelligentsia on both sides of the border is in dilemma whether India can be trusted? We are not first time “building confidence measures”. We are doing this for last 57-years of our national life. Every time some “mysterious” hands come into play and derail the whole peace process. It would be much enough this time that both sides should eliminate such elements which destroy these peace making efforts or at least attempts to do so. Both countries are mature enough to cope with state of affairs, both are nuclear nations; both have equal level of poverty (Indian is leading in this aspect of her national life), law and order situation, domestic political vendetta and sectarian disturbances.

It’s recommended that both Pakistan and Indian should shed away bogy of “partisan” stands on core issues and come to face realities. Kashmir is a solid stumbling block between two nations. Is this something unsolvable? Enough measured have been “build” to cement confidence, now should talk about Kashmir. No body should hesitate to tackle this matter. Their should not be any sort of “ego” involvement. This way will lead to an amicable solution of the Kashmir issue which would certainly be endorsed by Kashmiri’s as well.

Dr. Tallat Abid