Country Visa, City Visa

malik saheb

You would know the names `sufis` gave to different groups of Hindus better than I do.

Wasn`t Jinnah supposed to be a `khoja` or `Ismaili?`

Re: # 73
Fully agree with you.
Politicians on both sides have created a general paranoia among people for their own benefits and have used media and religeon very ``effectively``.Common people fall prey to the artificially created cognitive distortions.

I can recall a small incident here-I had to go to Bangalore(from Punjab) for one month in 1989/90.Bangalorians were wondering how people were surviving in Punjab as their notion was as if terrorists were just roaming freely in the streets and killing people.I think some Indians have the same notion about Jihadis in Pakistan.Only free intermingling of people can correct these false assumptions.

This is much more easier than taking up individuals for ``Cognitive Behaviour Therapy``.

kaalchakra:

I mostly agree with you. Jinnah had evisioned a secular pakistan probably because he was aware of the absurdities of religion. As he said, `muslims will cease to be muslims and hindus will cease to be hindus`.

But you know what, I think partition minus riots minus bad relations wouldn`t be such a harmful event. But seems like polarity always breeds extremism. But I have every reason that it is only about time as people in both countries become educated and intermingled and governments get matured (specially pakistani). Religion will die it`s own death. Sad thing is, we wont be around at that time.

At this moment, I am having a craving to belive in hindu reincarnation.
;-)

mj

harish:

Don`t take me wrong but your understanding of pakistan as a unit is not completely correct. I can tell you from my own experience that the people I have been living with all my life, almost none of them had any interest in any such aggression against India or some other country (perhaps one or two peopel whome I remotely known to be showing interest in jihaad in kashmir).

Let me state my understanding here. Pakistan as a unit has a jumble of dimensions to it. But since pakistan and india have observed a *complete* isolation (because of that the current generations don`t really know indians as people), not all of the dimsions of pakistan are visible to indians. Now the jihadis are expedition loving people. They raise charity, motivate people and carry out their expeditions with a great zeal. These are the people who make themselves visible because this is what they do. Common man, who earns his bread and wants peace hasn`t been let to interact. Believe me, Jihadis are very very small in number and are kinda alien to normal pakistani people too (I hope you will apprecaite that I have no reason to lie). Am I talking sense here?

It is true that there a lot of anti india propaganda in acedamics, but the reason to it is as secualar as it can be. A piece of land and some arrogance. And my perceptions tells me that there is a strong reason why indian government and press also need some propaganda (even very little) to convince the masses so that the armies can confront any threat to pakistan.

The problem with your line of thinking is that you put Islam as the first cause to the problem where it is not. The primary cause has been this notorious land conflict. Islam is just one stupid force which can be used by the power dwellers for anything they have an interest in. Poor Jihaadi isn`t really convinced that there is a good to harm an indian. He is only convinced that he must carry out the command of his religous mentor.

I stronly think that Pakistani muslims would have been much like indian counterparts, even better had there been no conflict like kashmir for the only reason that they would have intermingled more (imagine cross highways on the long border that we share) and would have seen the better sides of each other as well.

So?

drlokraj #69,
Non-Punjabis are smarter. They dont take decisions based on emotions, thats why they dont involve themselves in mass slaughter.

re: malikjahanzeb # 61

``problems with muslims are a product of historical processes and are understandable but are to be dealt with a profound process.``

Malik Saheb

This is itself very profound, although you will let me present a little twist to it. Surely, history has not been kind to us, but subcontinental Muslims are NOT a different `problem people` to be dealt with (I know you didn`t mean it in that sense).

What I see is profound misunderstanding on the parts of both Hindus and Muslims about who both of us are, what our sincerest, deepest beliefs are, and what we find intellectually compelling, spritually uplifting, and humanly attractive.

This is not an attempt to eliminate all differences, or to claim that everyone is the same. We are different, but not in the way that is so often assumed.

My craziest idea is that in our subcontinental case, Hindu-Muslim labels are both completely wrong. This will surely get many people very offended, angry, and some would suggest a few visits to the mental clinic. Yet I repeat: we are not `classical` Hindus nor `classical` Muslims.

Unlike people, religious ideas can be/must be evaluated for what they are. In that, `Hinduism` and `Islam` are no doubt sworn enemies and totally incompatible ideologies. But we are not religions or ideologies. We are people, of the middle, not all that different IF we do not become emotionally too hung up on labels, and if our religions are willing to clearly recognize that obvious fact.

Perhaps, I made no sense! Sorry! LOL

Please keep the `faith.` Many peeople come to chowk and end up hating the very people they should be closest friends with. Its hard to be sensitive to others` emotional make up, but that is what is needed. If we do that, we won`t fall into the trap of not recognizing who is with us, and who is not. That much is doable, and in our common interest.

Catch you gentlemen and ladies later.

drlokraj #69

`` I remember having written while interacting on some other similar article,that the restrictions,rules and regulations are always for common people.Terrorists,smugglers and other anti-social and anti-national elements dont use these routes,hence these donot apply to them.So why common people are being made scapegoats? ``

14 of the 18 Sep-11 hijackers entered US legally. So much for open-ness !!!

I remember having written while interacting on some other similar article,that the restrictions,rules and regulations are always for common people.Terrorists,smugglers and other anti-social and anti-national elements dont use these routes,hence these donot apply to them.So why common people are being made scapegoats?

It is mostly non-punjabis (and may be non-bengalis )who are opposing openness between the two countries because they dont find anything common with pakistanis.Lot of Punjabis,on the other hand still consider Punjab to be one on some level and crave to visit the other side.

Governments on both sides need to simplify the visa/immigration procedures and let people meet.People will not allow the tremendous atmosphere generated by reunion to be spoilt by hanful of trouble mongers.

#67 by malikjahanzeb

[dear, pakistanis are a very segregated society. you want me to take the responsibility of a bearded mullah? or you want the mullah to take the responsibility of a `patriotic` general?]

Malik Sahib, you got me wrong. The common refrain we hear from most Pakis is that Jihad is happening because the Muslim population in India is oppressed (which is far from the truth), and the Jihadis are trying to free them. This notion has been embedded into the Paki psyche (notwithstanding a few guys like you) for far too long to go away easily. Unless there are Pakis who are willing to confront this reality, any change of heart will be at best, superficial. This is where the Paki govt. can play a role. If it can enforce its writ over the Mullahs and Jihadis, there is no reason why things can`t change. But when the Paki govt. makes feeble excuses as to how it cannot control these rampaging Mullahs, it doesn`t meet with any opposition from the moderates like you. You guys must put the fear of god in your govts. That`s what I want to emphasize here.

[note the fact that there are ample jihadis in india and there is no need to import them from anywhere. you got to think outside the box.]

Disgruntled Muslims yes, but Jihadis in India? Can you be a bit clearer?

Re: # 65 dear, pakistanis are a very segregated society. you want me to take the responsibility of a bearded mullah? or you want the mullah to take the responsibility of a `patriotic` general? note the fact that there are ample jihadis in india and there is no need to import them from anywhere. you got to think outside the box.

Approximately 34 pakistan nationals who visited Chandigarh/mohali for the cricket match went missing after the match.They were unaccounted for.A little relaxation by the immigration dept. and see what happens!!.You never hear of indians visiting pakistan and never returning.It always is , in the case of pakistanis.Better safe than sorry!.I think the visa regime should continue.

#64 by malikjahanzeb

[The fact is, for the most part, ball remains in your court. Either one has to act as a big brother.]

With due respect, I humbly beg to disagree. Pakistanis must take responsibility for their actions and not blame it as a reaction to whatever is happening outside their nation. Just think, wouldn`t it be a shame if minorities in India are treated as second-rate citizens just because Pakistan treats its minorities shabbily?

Re: # 62 Agreed. The fact is, for the most part, ball remains in your court. Either one has to act as a big brother.

#55 by Romair

[I think Musharraf has literally hung everything out for peace. He has risked his own military leadership, his political career and even his own life, for it.]

Duh! On his own, Mushy was just fine with the long-standing Paki policies. Remember, at the height of the cold war, he was training Afghan Mujahideen to fight the Soviets and in 1988 ruthlessly crushed a Shia revolt in the Northern Areas (specifically Gilgit) using Osama`s men and tribals from the NWFP. Of course, Kargil is too recent for anyone to forget. It was only when Colin Powell made that famous midnight call that Mushy suddenly decided to ditch the Taliban and the Kashmir policy.

Two things amaze me:

1. Some Pakis believe (or pretend to) that Mushy did it out of goodness of heart.

2. They expect Indians to believe this cr@p.

#61 by malikjahanzeb

[let`s say in india, if you have an incident that you subdue a muslim in a certain area by force, this event itself will create a demand for the sellers of jahadism regardless of any attraction it has to offer. on the other hand, if there is no `garbar` for a long time, the sellers will find their dukaans going out of business.]

Not that it is right, but then, the percentage of Muslims (and Hindus) who are affected by such riots is at best, miniscule. Even during the Gujarat violence, riots did not spread to any other part of India. This attests to a more important fact, a fact that does not find mention in a media perpetually looking for sensational stories, and that is an overwhelming majority of Hindus and Muslims do live peacefully. Their lives are so intertwined that no disturbance can affect just one community. The other community stands to lose as well.

Re: # 57 kalchakri and harish,

i think basic security is a right for you guys from downright jahadis (in fact I am concerned about my security too :-) ). but the thing is, for a better tomorrow one must have a policy which is geared towards those higher objectives. i think india is in a position to do better than merely respond to events in a crude way.

talking about that policy, first there is a need to seperately view the buyers and sellers of jahaism in the muslim world. the buyers are common people who only buy when certain conditions are met. let`s say in india, if you have an incident that you subdue a muslim in a certain area by force, this event itself will create a demand for the sellers of jahadism regardless of any attraction it has to offer. on the other hand, if there is no `garbar` for a long time, the sellers will find their dukaans going out of business.

so, as a policy, i will suggest that indians should make their security a surety but at the same time, avoid any tendency towards voilance. only this attitude over a long time will slowly change things forever.

problems with muslims are a product of historical processes and are understandable but are to be dealt with a profound process. i hope you guys will agree.

rsidhar #57: ``However, this should not stop research workers, NGOs to go and investigate on ground and write their own history. This is what i am talking about. A history based on facts, shorn of govt interference and ideologies. Only then the truth will come out.``

This is true.

However, at some stage, if people really want peace, as they claim they do, then they have to express a desire for an objective analysis of their past and present. They should, at the very least, express it on public sites, like this one. I rarely see that.

There has to be a truth and reconciliation type of effort, which objectively reviews the history of the Sub-Continent, India and Pakistan. And re-interprets it. And objectively accesses all areas of these countries and Kashmir and Bangladesh etc., and talks with the locals to find out who is doing what to whom. Who is/was a terrorist? Who is/was committing state terrorism? Etc. And then opens up all this information to the world.......

Until then, it is merely a case of, ``He said, she said.`` However, I think very few people on this website, even, would be willing to encourage something like that. This is why I have generally doubted many people`s desire for actual peace. They tend to want peace at their own terms, stuffed down the throat of the other..........

#44 Amit,
What proof do you have that Pakistan is searching for their soul. They have their soul intrinsically connected with Islam. You have made a very wrong assumptions about majority of pakistan would like to be connected to india because of their obsession with Hindi movies. Hindi movies are also famous in iran, iraq, egypt, israel, etc. That does not mean they feel connected to india. Movies are for fun. You watch them and forget them. Dont read too much about Pakistani enjoying indian movies.
We do not have to win over pakistan. They are an individual country and so are we. We would like to have peace with them and trade with them but other than that nothing else. You talking about winning them over is too filmi.
Malaysia and indonesia might feel like pluralistic society but they seem to be going towards fundamentalism. The pluraistic attitude was developed because of the economic reasons.
The U-turn of pakistan is their afghanistan policy. Not much with india. the infiltrations seems to be down but it can be increased again quickly. there are still training camps in pakistan. they have not removed them.
I hope you break out of your unrealisitc shell quickly.

Re #55 Romair

``giving up on their atut-ang stance, i.e Pakistan has agreed to give up on it, if India does``

Romair,

Isn`t India willing to not claim entire J&K i.e. not claiming what Pakistan controls (including
Northern Areas) and what China controls a major concession i.e. part of the ang has
been toot already and India is willing to accept that toota hua ang?

re:#54 by Romair
Your second proposal is a non-starter. Indians may be willing but no govt of the day would like to reveal the skeletons in the closet, especially if the results threaten its continuance in power. Indian govt is paranoid about these things. Did u hear the extent to which congress govt went to hide the truth about Subhash Bose`s death?
However, this should not stop research workers, NGOs to go and investigate on ground and write their own history. This is what i am talking about. A history based on facts, shorn of govt interference and ideologies. Only then the truth will come out.
Sridhar

re: malikjahanzeb # 45

Having read your interacts on the Abaya board, it`s odd that any Hindu would disagree with you on anything. But in high risk conditions, people become less willing to make distinctions among one Hindu or Muslim and another Hindu or Muslim.

Even a Badshah Khan would have aroused suspicions today. It`s good that the great man died when he did. The rest of us are surely headed to hell :(

Dost-mittar #51: I agree with parts of your post and disagree with other parts.

I think Musharraf has literally hung everything out for peace. He has risked his own military leadership, his political career and even his own life, for it. He has made concessions that no other Pakistani (or Indian) has ever made. And he has actually presented solution from the Pakistan side, pre-emptively, which is based on both sides giving up on their atut-ang stance, i.e Pakistan has agreed to give up on it, if India does........Now everyone is waiting for India..........And I think the Indian decision to drop the passport restriction on travel in Kashmir is a step in this direction.........

One has to judge leaderships and leaders by what they do. Not what they say........Vajpayee used to attack Pakistan, now and then verbally, but on the ground moved for peace........

Regarding the cricket series: I think there is genuine relationship between the Punjabis. This is what the Indians saw in Pakistan. They saw the same thing in Karachi, since Karachi is the center of the Muhajir community, which has a lot of relationship with relatives in India. Since almost 2/3rd of Pakistan is Punjabi and hence there is a large Punjabi factor, involved, from the Pakistan side.

Pakistanis have seen the same thing in Indian Punjab on this tour. But India is a lot bigger than Punjab. So, the matches in Calcutta and Bangalore, have not had the same reaction. The crowd was nice, but it certainly did not match the enthusiasm of the Punjabi crowds on both sides of the border (or Karachi crowd). Following is an interesting article from an Indian writer in Bangalore, for the largest cricket website in the world:

``The silence of Pakistan`s victory

Rahul Bhattacharya

March 28, 2005

As India slide to defeat, the silence that greets Pakistan`s efforts borders on the graceless

The sustained silence that greeted Pakistan`s extraordinary victory today was the lowest point of a superb Test series. Given how a year ago applause had poured in for a dramatic last-ball victory by the Indians at Karachi, an applause that then resonated for the rest of the tour, Bangalore was an embarrassment...............It should be perhaps spelt out here that there was no viciousness on view. Rather it was an indifference, one which has been evident over the last few days...................But just as there was a leaf to be taken out of Pakistan`s marvellous performance by the Indian cricket team, so should there be one for the Indian spectators from their counterparts`. This insularity is regressive and terribly disturbing.`` (www.cricinfo.org)

So I am not sure how much the South Indians have bought into this bhai-bhai stuff. The differences between Mohali, and Calcutta/Bangalore were quite obvious to me, when I was watching the matches. It seems obvious Punjabis (and perhaps North Indians, as a whole, have bought into it............

rsidhar #46: `` revision of Pak history on more modern lines, keeping in mind the facts and getting rid of hatred and ideologies, would be a good beginning towards reconciliation.``

There are two things that need to happen in the Sub-Continent. And I have always felt anyone who doesn`t agree with these two things, is just parroting, ``peace,`` but doesn`t really want it. He/she only wants peace on his/her own terms........These are as follow:

1. The whole history of the Sub-Continent needs to be studied and written in a very objective manner. Define what the Muslim invaders did to the Hindu locals. And define with Hindu kings did to other Hindu kings. And what happened during partition etc. And who did what to whom. etc. etc.

2. All of the Sub-Continent needs to be opened up to human rights organizations to see what is happening now. Let the international media talk with the locals and see who is a terrorist and who is a victim. Specifically so, in Kashmir, where each country presents its own picture. People talk of intra-people communication. This should be extended to everyone. Ask them what they want. Ask them who is harming them, and who is helping them.

And then accept the results....Perhaps all of the above should be led by international organizations, who have credibility, to avoid local biases........

This will allow us to get a correct picture of the past and the present. Only then can people decide who is right and who is wrong. My guess is that most Pakistanis will realize that their understanding of the past is wrong. And that most Indians will realize that their understanding of the present is wrong..........

Anyone scared to initiate this or oppose it, obviously has a lot to hide, and can, thus, never be a source of genuine peace...........

Requirement of foreigner registration is for visitors from many non-muslim countries also. So why should a Paki be upset about it? But really it is of no use. Because once registered if you act, look and behave like any Indian you will have no trouble visiting any place in India. How do the Paki terrorists go all the way to Kolkata (or even enter Bangladesh illegally)? That is the problem. India should have mandatory identification cards for all citizens. Otherwise registration and no registration it is useless. A Paki human carrying a nuke on a mule can easily pass through porous borders of India and can easily nuclear bomb any city of India. All anti-missile systems will be of no use if that is the ``delivery`` system used by an Islamic terrorist who has gained possesion of a crude nuke. Of course, Indians can do same as easily.

Re: # 38 kham
//...i being an ex-jihadi never used the recognised borders to get to the enemy territory ...//

Great - Now we have ex-jihadis peddling ``information`` on border management. Will the wonders ever cease :))

Romair#35

``I think if things open up between India and Pakistan, the comradarie will depend on the geographical region one belongs to. My guess is that four regions will blend together quite nicely, while the remaining will remain somewhat aloof.``

I think that there are tsunamic changes taking place between India and Pakistan. Indian establishment likes it, Pakistani establishment seems somewhat ambivalent about it, and keeps threatening of repeating a Kargil if the `core issue` is not resolved. It is wary of the reconciliation process taking its natural course if it means the `core issue` taking a back seat. This is why the Indian government is taking a very aggressive posture on this; the latest is that Pakistanis over 65 and under 12 can now enter India without a pre-approved visa, which would be given to them at the entry point itself.

While not ignoring the Kashmir issue, the basic cause of the hostility between India and Pakistan are the unhealed wounds of the Partition on Panjabis. Pakistani sindhis never suffered any wounds during the partition and they are the only Pakistanis who regret the loss of their Hindus. Muhajirs, especially those from east of Delhi, also did not suffer a huge trauma, most of them were migrants rather than refugees and did not lose even their properties as they left one or more members of their families in India. They still have close or distant relatives in India and even have contacts with them. They are least prejudiced against India and some of them have even started questioning the wisdom of the movement they led. Pathans, too, did not suffer any wounds during the partition. So, it is the Panjabis from both sides of the divide who have ghastly memories, which have been passed down to the next generation. This is what is changing now. This is where the effect of the relaxation of the visa is so evident. Panjabis went to Lahore last year during the cricket test and found that people there were warm, nice and hospitable and not very different from them. The same thing is happening in reverse now when Pakistanis are coming to India to watch cricket. If you have been reading excerpts from Tribune and other newspapers (somehow Pakistani media chose not to highlight these things) you would have noticed how they were ``overwhelmed`` and discovered that what they were TAUGHT was all wrong. On a lighter note, since you are so fond of using films as a source of knowledger, some of them were disappointed that Indian women were not dressed in gorgeous saris and jewellery that they are used to seeing in Saas-Bahu serials. It is this new development between Panjabis which is of huge significance. Panjabis are not that influencial in the Indian establishment, but the Indian establishment wants to aggressively pursue bilateral normalisation regardless of which party was in power, without compromising its position on issues of vital interests. However, the potential of key change is on the Pakistani side. Panjabis hold the sway on Pakistani establishment and if their old wounds are healed, it may be difficult for Pakistani establishment to raise the jihadi fever among them.

``I think Pakistanis greatly underestimate the Hindu Indians take on history and how affected they seem by it. Most Pakistanis do not go much into the Ghauris and Ghazanavis etc.``

This is somewhat exaggerated. Indians are not naming their missiles ``Shivaji`` or ``Rana Pratap``, it is Pakistanis who are naming theirs ``Ghauri`` and ``Ghazni``. Even history taught in Indian schools is not very different from that in Pakistan, except for the history of the indendence movement. During Nehru`s period, a successful effort was made under historians like Irfan Habib and Romila Thapar, to sanitise the Indian history from a secular/marxist/muslim perspetive. Under it, Muslim excesses were attributed to individuals rather than their religion, and the collaborative roles played by local rulers were emphasized. Hindu religion was almost demonised as caste ridden and the conversions to islam were attributed mostly to the oppressive caste system and the message of love by the sufis, rather than by coercion. To what extent these sanitized texts changed the mindset of ordinary hindus is however a different matter altogether.

It will take a great time for these deluded Pakistani muslims to realize why Azim Premji eulogizes the secular roots of this great country and the tremendous freedom it offers......and how in no other country the head of the states belonging to different religions can occupy their position like we have in India....................

#45 by malikjahanzeb

[it not not the matte of finding the facts, rather it is a matter of defining facts which lead us to a better tomorrow.]

Malik Sahib, I am all for free travel, and Pakis with good intentions (and I’m sure there are a lot of them) will never misuse the visa-less travel facility that is being talked about here, but the problem is with Pakis of the Jihadi persuasion who have wreaked havoc inside India. You will agree with me that India is among the world’s worst terrorism-affected countries.

Romair fondly talks about how easy it is at the immigration counters in Canada, but does he realize that no notable act of terrorist violence has taken place on Canadian soil? Once that happens, it wouldn`t be too long before Canada goes the Dutch way. Remember the broad daylight murder of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh and the subsequent calls for expulsion of Muslims from Holland?

For an Indian, the ordinary Paki is perhaps the friendliest amongst all the people on Earth because of the obvious similarities, but the problem is how do we distinguish the friendly Paki from the Jihadi Paki? After all, Omar Sheikh, the accused in the Daniel Pearl beheading was an LSE drop out.

In time, Pakistan may emerge out of the Jihadi mindset, but at least until then, I am in favor of tighter screening and monitoring.

Re: # 41

I can see why Pakis dislike you- anyway, Well said!

Interesting , when we are entertaining Mush`s Mother and Son, he is back to his stupid talks about Kargil recurrence in case Kashmir is not conceded to his military..............I do not think that those who want to come to India and enjoy it`s vibrant culture understand the damage that this idiot does to their interests when he opens his mouth about India or Kashmir!!!
It is time PAkistani Muslims realize that Mush would remain a liability than an asset when it comes to Indo-Pak relations!!

re:#35 by Romair
(I am not sure how well the Sindhis will interact. Not sure how much they have in common.)
Sindhi Hindus (some of the most prosperous business community in India and abroad) can contribute immensely to Sindh. Many Sindhis i have met in my life are nostalgic about their past and would like to contribute in some way.

In general, what u are saying is correct. Indian and Pak Punjab have a lot of commonalities which they have started to explore only recently. The same can be said of the 2 Kashmirs. I see a gradual reassertion of regional aspirations, especially among Punjabis, Sindhis etc.
South is cut off from this but in South, Pakistanis may find people shorn of religious divide and shorn off any hatred (having said this i sometimes cringe at the posts by Jay and others).

(I suppose, due to their relgion, Pakistanis might be viewing the invaders as one of them. Even though the invaders killed local Hindu and Muslim rulers alike. However, it seems as though scars of those invasions are still a main point of importance amongst Indians.........)
This only calls for a review of the subcontinental history in a new light. Amit is right when he says the invaders were foreigners. No doubt many settled down and enriched the landscape but still the fact remains: they were from outside. There was a time when the court language in Delhi was farsi!
Pakistan`s history teaches students that Ghouri and Ghazni are the real heros because they killed and punished idolators. In places like Gujarat, the scars (and hence the polarisation of 2 communiites) are deep. Nobody has forgotten what Ghazni did to Somnath temple. A revision of Pak history on more modern lines, keeping in mind the facts and getting rid of hatred and ideologies, would be a good beginning towards reconciliation.
Sridhar

brother harish,

you are seeing the different extreme of the same truth. this might seem boring but let me repeate, justice is in details, there is no black and white. differences are there and will remain untill nothing is being done. it is true that dawood, syed and bal thakrey are there but do not ignore gandhi and moulana abukalam azad too. it not not the matte of finding the facts, rather it is a matter of defining facts which lead us to a better tomorrow.

so, what do you choose?

Satyamvada,

For the past 60 years, there has been a struggle going on for the soul of Pakistan. There is a large section of people there who want Pakistan to move away from the subcontinent, focus towards the middle east/central asia and emphasize on religious identity. The Pakistani establishment supported this ideology as a counter to India and believed that it was the only way to protect Islam in the subcontinent. The Pakistani Army with its support for jihad and strategic depth were a part of this ideology. On the other hand, the vast majority of ordinary people in Pakistan are very much rooted in the subcontinent. Their ethnic and cultural roots are 5000 years old and cannot be erased so easily. The ordinary people cannot help but feel close to India and Indian culture, which shows up in their obsession for Indian movies, music etc.

Today we have the opportunity of a lifetime to completely win over Pakistan to our side. Given our status as a emerging power with growing economic clout, we have the means to convince the Pakistanis to overwhelmingly move towards our camp. The US war on terror has already forced the Paksitan army and their establishment to do a U-turn with India. We just need to pick up the ball and make this U-turn irreversible. We should encourage Pakistan to evolve along the lines of Malaysia or Indonesia which are also muslim countries with a hindu past but who have developed pluralistic societies. We can not only finish jihad forever, but we may even end up with a loyal ally.

#29 by amit

[I think the mistake we Indians tend to make is that we blur the lines between muslim invaders and desi muslims.]

Of the 2000-strong Muslim mob that set fire to the coach at Godhra, I’m sure an overwhelming majority was desi Muslims.

[Last time I checked, Ghaznavi was a Turk, Ghauri was a Tajik and Babar a Uzbek. Do you see any Punjabis in that list?]

Dawood Ibrahim is an Indian Muslim, Chotta Shakeel is Indian, and Syed Salahuddin, the Hizbul Mujahideen chief is an Indian Muslim too.

#11 by amit

[But why can`t we have the same level of visa procedures with Pakistan that we have with other islamic countries?]

For the simple reason that Pakistan has a state-sanctioned policy of Jihad against India. ISI Agents have been apprehended as far as Hyderabad in South India. I belong to this city, and till date, about 25,000 Pakis have disappeared here after entering India on visit visas.

[What is the need for excessive police reporting, city specific visas, the fixation about the port of entry etc?]

Again, for the simple reason that it is easy to track down Pakis visiting India. As I said, despite this procedure, 25,000 Pakis are missing in just the city of Hyderabad.

Identity of indian muslims.

Indian muslims have said it loud and clear, they have nothing to do with jihadic pakistan. There is no indian muslim caught in afghanistan, there is no one in guantanamo bay while it has muslims from all over the world. Worlds secand largest muslim country india, did not send even a single muslim to be trained in pakistan to be sent to afghanistan.

No Beena, no pakistani will dare to admit this reality, there is no india muslim, no indian, and they do do not believe in pak values. Pakistanis have been caught in every part of the world, the latest is in australia, a pak medical student trained with alquida. It is time that indian fenced all of pak border and stopped letting any into india. How about that pak actress who went to bombay, she is to be prosecuted under blasphemy lasws, even the minister of pakistan and the mullahs had a lot to say about her. Beens, do you dare to arite anything about pak reaction about this incident. Pathetic is the only word for this type of trash

It is rather pathetic that Beena talks about the visa restrictions. Never a word has any one heard about a stupid kerala woman called Divya who married a pakistani, changed her religion, and pakistanis will not give visa for her to stay. Beena, tell the world can any one change from muslim to another religion in pakistan,. Tell the world Bina, whether any one can build a temple or a church in pakistan now.

The paki loving dost mitters and the stukas never dare to address these fundamental values that divide india and pakistan.

here is yet another non-sense. Already hundreds of pakistanis allowed to enter india in the name of cricket have vanished into thin air. They are sure to reemerge as Mullah akhtar, who got released after the hijacking. This liberalisation of visits is a one way trafic, not many indians want to visit pakistan, there are no relatives of hindus left there.
The laskers are still going strong. No indian of the ilk of stuka dares to admit that if oakistan is concerned about human rights in kashmir why there is no support for some kinf kashmir liberation organisation, whay all of the pak organisation the so called supporters of kashmiris are called laskers, jaish mohammed etc. It iss pathetic that the dost mitters and stukas who visited pakistan never dared to ask this question to the pakistansi, or to investigate this.

The fact is that pakistan is a jihadic country, slowly and steadily, the hoodood and blasphemy las are set in stone in pakistan, and the vision of laskers is the same for kashmir. There will always be killings across jihadic frontiers, fencing of pak and bangla borders is the right step. One should follow the US example and introduce further restrictions. I do hope that the next attack on parliment will end all this crap about pakistanis coming to india.
It si time that the indians accept the reality, travel is one way, laskers coming to india.

mohar...
i being an ex-jihadi never used the recognised borders to get to the enemy territory ...only fools and fiction writers do that...this is just for your information... :)

Amit:

Though your intentions are noble, you seem very ``naive`` to me.. It is right that we should NOT live in the past.. But we should NOT close our eyes to the PRESENT too.

While we see the Indian society (at least a significant portion of it) getting worked up over Modi and his ``perceived`` treatment of ``minorities``, and fights against him, you see the re-inclusion of ``religion`` column on the passport of Pakistan..and you don`t see a whimper of protest there.

In Pakistan, the society is so ``jihadised``, it`d be a suicide to have open borders or the ``friendship`` that you are talking about. We need a really ``tolerant`` Islam being practised in India and its surroundings before we can think about opening up etc..etc.. They have suicide bombers going into each other`s mosques.. Even though we have caste clashes now and then, (fortunately, I haven`t heard of major caste flare-ups in India for a long time), that`s nothing compared to the intra sect rivalry in Pakistan.. Do we really need to get involved at this point of time.. The ideal thing to happen is the growth of a ``tolerant Islam`` in India that spreads its wings in both directions..

When you say, indian culture is same as the pakistani culture I believe you are talking about the punjabi culture..

satyamvada #31,
I agree that Amit`s too optimistic about Ind-Pak ties, but basically he`s right that that we can`t live in the past. Ind-Pak is not exactly Hidu-Muslim thing, because we have Muslims in our country too. Plus past violence should not mean that we cannot live peacefully in the future. Ofcourse there are a lot of issues and it will take some time to resolve but too much negetivity and bitterness due to the past wont do us any good.

I think if things open up between India and Pakistan, the comradarie will depend on the geographical region one belongs to. My guess is that four regions will blend together quite nicely, while the remaining will remain somewhat aloof.

Indian Punjab and Pakistani Punjab will get along well. And Indian Kashmir and Pakistani Kashmir will get along well. Pakistani Kashmiris are Punjabi speakers, while Indian Kashmiris speak different languages. But through Pakistani Kashmir, Indian Kashmir will be linked to Punjab also. Infact, the trade routes, roads etc. make it easier to export items from Indian Kashmir to various parts of India, through Pakistan than through India, itself.

Everyone else will be on ok terms. But not the brotherly love type stuff. The main commonalities between India and Pakistan are really concentrated towards the North, i.e. North India and Pakistan. That is where the cultural commonalities occur.

I am not sure how well the Sindhis will interact. Not sure how much they have in common. The Pathans have more in common with Afghanis than with Punjabis.

I think Pakistanis greatly underestimate the Hindu Indians take on history and how affected they seem by it. Most Pakistanis do not go much into the Ghauris and Ghazanavis etc. While they do talk about the British rulers. I suppose, due to their relgion, Pakistanis might be viewing the invaders as one of them. Even though the invaders killed local Hindu and Muslim rulers alike. However, it seems as though scars of those invasions are still a main point of importance amongst Indians.........

I think, at a certain point, one has to let go of history..............

I tend to agree with Beena that reporting to police is a big hassle and harrassment. India should visa rules strict. Dont issue visa if there`s slightest suspicion. But once issued, Pakis should be given right to travel anywhere and everywhere. Giving visas to one city and place is ridiculous. Bureaucracy sucks!

#29....
Amit,
I dont disagree with you. I was trying to refute your claims that hindus have not been treated badly while being ruled under muslims and Hindus and Muslims have lived in peace for last 700 years.
Hindus could easily forgive the past but not forget it. We have to be very careful while dealing with Pakistan and Bangladesh. Both these countries government is not India friendly. There are lot of elements in these countries and government that would love to harm india.
I would like India to have wonderful relationship with both Pak & Bangla. We have to take these relationship building slowly and not be euphoric in our actions.

#29....
Amit,
I dont disagree with you. I was trying to refute your claims that hindus have not been treated badly while being ruled under muslims and Hindus and Muslims have lived in peace for last 700 years.
Hindus could easily forgive the past but not forget it. We have to be very careful while dealing with Pakistan and Bangladesh. Both these countries government is not India friendly. There are lot of elements in these countries and government that would love to harm india.
I would like India to have wonderful relationship with both Pak & Bangla. We have to take these relationship building slowly and not be euphoric in our actions.

Amit wrote:
``Please explain how did hindus and muslims coexist for a 1000 years? How come
India has hindu majority even after 700 years of muslims rule? ``

huh ?
Have you bothered to read history ? Have you visited any historical sites ?
Can you tell me about how many major temples in the north are left standing ?
You probably got your history from Nehru`s `Discovery of India`.

Go to Hampi in Karnataka to learn about co-existence. Also, learn about what is
called Dhimmitude. Spend some time reading and learning about ideologies and
what *other* people think of you and what they value. Dont be so self absorbed and
try to impose your ``feelings`` on others.

Amit,

Please stop bullshitting.

No one is worried about what happened hundreds of years ago. The issue is about
behaviour and values of communities today.

Pakiland and India are also different because of differences in value systems and
institutional differences.

Let us see if you have the guts to tell the truth. My guess is that you are one of those
``lets hold hands and pretend that we are all the same`` nonsense when in reality you are
nothing more than a dhimmi.

Re:Ashutosh_Gandhi#27

I think the mistake we Indians tend to make is that we blur the lines between muslim invaders and desi muslims. Muslim invaders were all from outside the subcontinent such as Turkey, Central Asia, Arabs or even Iranians. Those invaders did indeed commit slaughter and mayhem and I am well aware of that history. However, muslims of desi origin in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan, are 99.9% descendents of local people i.e. hindus, who converted. These people or their ancestors never attacked or slaughtered hindus. In fact, their ancestors probably faced the burnt of the attacks from the muslim invaders. Of course, they might have been attracted to the faith for other reasons as well.

The irony is that we Indians have excellent relations with each of those countries that actually sent invaders over here. However, we target all our historical frustrations on desi muslims who had nothing to do with it. In a sense both muslims and hindus in the subcontinent are brainwashed and living out absurd fantasies. The muslims fantasize about being the military winners in India and pretend to carry out the legacy of those days such as jihad, when they are really descendents of hindus. The hindus buy into that fantasy and imagine the desi muslims to be enemies and representatives of those invaders. You will see the RSS types foaming about Pakistanis but you never hear any accusations against Turkey or Central Asia. Last time I checked, Ghaznavi was a Turk, Ghauri was a Tajik and Babar a Uzbek. Do you see any Punjabis in that list?

kaurasach:
We are not under an islamic sultanat now, so there`s no use bringing in old metaphors. In any case, if the `oil and water`, to use your phrase, cannot coexist, what kind of fences will you build in India for your 150 million compatriots?

Reply #26.
Amit,
Hindus and muslims has not co-existed peacefully as you feel. India has hindu majority after part of it has been cut i.e. Pakistan and Bangladesh. 150 million in Pak and another 130 million in Bangla and 140 million in India. There were hindus even in Afghanistan. That totals nearly half billion. Hindus would be around 750 million and muslims are around 500 million in the indian sub continent.
There has been huge massacres of hindus by muslims in past 1000 years.
Do you know what ``Hindu Kush`` really mean (Hindu kush is a mountain range bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan). It means ``Hindu Slaughter``.
No doubt that there are lot of Muslims who are tolerant of hindus but still precaution needs to be taken. There is no need of euphoria. Still indian soldiers are being killed in Kashmir.

Re:kaurasach#24

Please explain how did hindus and muslims coexist for a 1000 years? How come India has hindu majority even after 700 years of muslims rule?

Also, why are ordinary people on both sides so warm with each other, and especially so in the past 2 years? Why do shopkeepers on both sides refuse to take money from the visitors? Are leftists and peaceniks bribing them to be nice to the visitors from the other side?

Look, it is okay to recognize differences but we should balance that with the similarities.

Amit,
I agree with your basic idea, but I think in your eagerness for better relations you are ignoring a lot of things. I think the best approach towards better relations including better treatment for each other visitors is to make gradual changes. Its better to go slow, let things settle and go forward.

Amit,

I suggest you read the history carefully. Not gulp down the sanitized hogwash the schools in India, and leftists and peacenicks concoct.

Go talk to Hindus living amongst muslims and vice versa. Not the `face` and `show` they present in front of a stranger. Go to UP (Delhi will probably do too) and do this experiment. Then, make these remarks.

Re:vivek

I acknowledge that there are differences between hindus and muslims. The question is that of magnitude. Kaurasach implied it is like oil and water. I do not agree with that at all, since that would indicate total incompatibility. That is simply not true given that Pakistan looks and feels exactly like India and the culture is almost identical. The events of 1947 were more of an outlier than an indicator of our true feelings. We got carried away with the events at that time and it was collective insanity. However, there were never riots of that vicious nature prior to 1947 or even afterwards. We cannot let temporary insanity define our attitudes forever. We had temporary insanity between hindus and sikhs in 1984, but it does not mean that we cannot coexist now.

Pakistani artistes should exploit their hugely popularity in the large Indian market. Adnan Sami appears to be minting money. I doubt that he is the only talent Pakistan has to offer.

Amit,

Go talk to hindus and muslims, where they interact and coexist `pecaefully`. you will find under calm water there are strong currents. The hatred is in the eyes, the gestures.....the words they use for each other and others` gods.

I`ve heard and seen it. The only reason violence doesn`t break up are the fear of consequences.

Regarding the treatment of Ind/Pak visiting the other country, one wishes that things be more civil, but the visit to the police station helps in documentation. How else would you track the visitor from the not-so friendly country.

amit #18,
Differences between Hindus and Muslims were always there. There were many instances of hindu/muslims riots prior to 47, but as Indians have always been poor at documenting history, these instances were not properly recorded. But ask rural folks and they would several instances of such riots as their ancestors had told them.

Re:kaurasach#16

I am sure the French, British and the Germans thought of each other as oil and water 100 years back. In fact, the Germans were protrayed as Teutonic monsters in the British media prior to WWII, who could not coexist with anyone. The US and Russians thought of each other as oil and water. In South Africa, whites and blacks thought of each other as oil and water. All that has proven to be bogus.

In the subcontinent, show me one incident prior to 1947 where hindus and muslims were at each other`s throats on a wholesale basis. We lived together and coexisted just fine, whether it be Mughal rule, Sikh rule or British rule. There were minor quarrels but no large-scale communal violence. The muslims in Pakistan i.e. Punjabi and Sindhi muslims, never attacked anyone in North India. All attacks were by outsiders like Ghaznavi, Ghauri. Even today after 60 years of virtual apartheid, Indians and Pakistanis are similar to each other and are so warm with each other. We are not like Israelis and Palestinians who will spit at each other and kill each other`s children. They literally cannot coexist. Our case is totally different. We have a love and hate relationship like two estranged lovers. When we are by ourselves, we hate the other side, but when we meet we totally melt. It is kind of weird but not hopeless :-).

Re:b_banth#13

There is no doubt that India and Pakistan need to make some accommodation on Kashmir, similar to the Northern Ireland agreement. That kind of win-win compromise solution is possible only when we start interacting with each other in a normal way. Even after all the bonhomie, there is still a long way to go. We still cannot travel in a normal way to each other`s country. The trust levels are low as shown by the postings on this board and elsewhere. We still have defence spending specific against the other side like F16 aircrafts. We have little trade from an official perspective and Pakistan still does not give MFN status to India. So while we have made progress, a lot remains to be done to build trust and confidence in each other, as well as make the whole process irreversible with strong economic linkage.

I think the easier things to accomplish in the next round would be Siachen and Baglihar dam, along with more travel links, relaxed visas, troop reductions in Kashmir and startup of trade (MFN, transit to Central Asia).

DM,

I respect your consistently clear and balanced outlook on many issues. But you are naive on the Indo/Pak and Hindu/Muslim`s this aspect of the issues. You cannot mix oil and water. It is politically incorect, yet it is the bitter truth.

A practising Hindu and a practising muslim cannot coexist. It has nothing to do with prejudices. You shouldn`t create or repeat the conditions to once again blowup like 47 and many other small blowups.

Under optimistic hope, the two can live as good neighbors with good fence, thats about it.

b_banth#13:

With all due respect, it is not India that derails the normalisation process nor is it the core issue that does it, but it is Pakistan`s obsession with the core issue which always has and probably will derail the process again. Let`s learn from India-China and China-Taiwan how countries can maintain their postions while normalisation continues. It appears, for instance, that after several years of progress on normalisation, China and India are now addressing the intractable core boundary issue facing them. It also seems that the talks are proceeding without any of the tensions which surround any Kashmir talks and prevents the parties from making the kind of accomodation to the other`s point of view which is needed to resolve long standing intractable issues.
So, let the people meet. Let the old prejudices disappear. Let the atmosphere of friendship bloom to create the right conditions for a rapproachment on the core issue.

Re: # 13 Dr. Tallat Abid

yet another paki ``Doctor`` pontificating on ``core issue``.

Its call of the hour that India and Pakistan should alleviate or at least ease visa restrictions policies. But intelligentsia on both sides of the border is in dilemma whether India can be trusted? We are not first time “building confidence measures”. We are doing this for last 57-years of our national life. Every time some “mysterious” hands come into play and derail the whole peace process. It would be much enough this time that both sides should eliminate such elements which destroy these peace making efforts or at least attempts to do so. Both countries are mature enough to cope with state of affairs, both are nuclear nations; both have equal level of poverty (Indian is leading in this aspect of her national life), law and order situation, domestic political vendetta and sectarian disturbances.

It’s recommended that both Pakistan and Indian should shed away bogy of “partisan” stands on core issues and come to face realities. Kashmir is a solid stumbling block between two nations. Is this something unsolvable? Enough measured have been “build” to cement confidence, now should talk about Kashmir. No body should hesitate to tackle this matter. Their should not be any sort of “ego” involvement. This way will lead to an amicable solution of the Kashmir issue which would certainly be endorsed by Kashmiri’s as well.

Dr. Tallat Abid

amit
//....why can`t we have the same level of visa procedures with Pakistan that we have with other islamic countries?...//

Because - other islamic countries do NOT sponsor jihad against India. [ Saudis, to some extent, are involved in financing.]

+++

//....We are not talking about visa-free travel between India and Pakistan. That is not likely any time soon....//

I thought it`s going to happen in April - with the bus service across LOC. Any paki can enter India visa-free, using that bus service. Isn`t that true?

+++

//...This is needless harassment and bureaucracy and has nothing to do with fighting jihad...//

I am all for bureaucratic simplification so that the good folks like Beena can get in. But there is complete lack of analysis on security implications - everybody seems to be caught up in the euphoria. That`s going to back-fire, very badly.

Mohar,

We are not talking about visa-free travel between India and Pakistan. That is not likely any time soon. But why can`t we have the same level of visa procedures with Pakistan that we have with other islamic countries? What is the need for excessive police reporting, city specific visas, the fixation about the port of entry etc? For example, recently the film star Meera had visa for both Delhi and Mumbai but her port of entry was Mumbai. When she showed up at Delhi from Karachi, she was refused entry and almost deported back, until Mahesh Bhatt pulled some strings and let her in. This is needless harassment and bureaucracy and has nothing to do with fighting jihad. It is a legacy of our government`s tendency to treat each other`s citizens like dirt. Same goes for giving multiple entry visas, business visas etc.

We have not yet reached a trust level where we can drop visas and we need to be careful about jihadi elements. But the current procedures are way too extreme in their rigidity and serve no useful purpose except to harass ordinary people. It is in our interest to accelearte more people to people contact while balancing the needs for security.

Either way - the question still remains: While muslim countries themselves are giving ``special treatment`` to pakis at their ports-of-entry - why should India be giving visa-free entries? In fact - India has all reasons to make sure pakis get even stricter ``special`` considerations.

And what is the backup-plan if this ``people-to-people`` stunt blows up in your face [which it will - sooner rather later] ???? What do you do when jihad breaks out all over the country? Or is that completely outside the realm of possibilities?

Any thoughts Mr DM? You can bet that none of these wonderful friendship-seeking pakis will come to your support. Heck - I have never seen any paki in last 15 years who ever asked their establishment to stop jihad against India. Have you?

So what makes you sure that this time it will be any different? After all - this is not the first time ``friendship`` is being touted - right? Is this the age-old indian stupidity manifesting itself - you know, the story about some guy getting attacked by some invader 17 times, defating him all the times and yet letting him go free. How much more - when do you learn?

Re: # 6 DM
//...When people from the two countries get used to visiting each other, there probably will be less need for any hostile agents to enter the country...//

Sure - if wishes were horses.....

Look - I am sure people like Beena are good pakistanis. I believe Beena never supported jihad, ever in her life .... or ever donated in omni-present jihad donation boxes [That`s the universal definition of a good pakistani]. ..... And I am sure she wants India-paki friendship and all such good things.

But the fact is that people like beena don`t matter, in pakistan. Only people who matter are mullahs, closet-mullahs, military - all jihadis. That`s the reality. You can have as much people flowing thru border as you want - that won`t change a thing. Jihad is an ideology that has been incorporate into ``pakistan ideology`` for a long time. And there is no reason to beleive anything has changed on that front. Or will ever change.

Get wise when you still have time.

+++

//.... I have gone through Indian immigration lines; they are less efficiently manned than those by summer student inspectors at Canadian airports....//

Just because you have inefficient immigration doesn`t mean you give visa-free entry to pakis. That`s basically opening doors for jihadis. If Indian immigration is NOT efficient, then it`s necessary that India has to make them efficient.

Paksitan and India should completely open up their visa procedures. Let anyone who wants to come and go, do so. Pakistan will be the bigger winner in this. It will get a lot of tourists from India. And a lot of Indian opinions about Pakistan will change, once they actually get to see Pakistan and realize it is different from what they have been told, all their lives......

The best immigration services I have ever seen, have to be the ones in Canada. I am a Canadian citizen now, and everything from the day I filled out the first form, till today has worked almost exactly like clockwork. Literally to the last day and week, as advertised. And the day you land in Canada, you are part of the system as a resident. Not a disposable work visa worker. And I have not had to use a single lawyer anywhere. Canadian immigration at the airports is great also. Always a smiling face.

There is still a lot of, ``innocence`` amongst Canadians. Something I have not seen in any country, before or after 9/11........

The USA used to be alright. But their green card and citizenship procedures are very disorganized and understaffed. It took months and months just to get a work visa. Indians are the most affected by this, and many are unable to get a green card, even in six years. Recently, the USA has lost a lot of goodwill amongst individuals who were otherwise pro-USA, due to its ridiculous immigration procedures. I once had a US immigration officer literally apologize to me for all the questions he had to ask. And one even laughed at the procedures, themselves.

Pakistani immigration is, now, the strictest I have seen anywhere. Checking in and out of Pakistani airports, on international flights, requires going through multiple scans and manual checks and sign-offs.

Haven`t been to India yet, so cannot comment on that...........

Of all the nations i`ve been, India`s immigration is the WORST by far. Ever since my US passport, things have been much better, still the worst.

They turn the passport upside down. Flip thru every page. Find an `advise` or suggestion. Claim that the photo doesn`t match. etc etc. Question the `intentions`....and then, send a `choora` after you, even outside the airport,.....Once, this `choora` followed me outside and started yelling.....``Sardar ji, aapko sharam nahin aati, bina kujh diye chal diye.....humaray bachon ka kiya baney ga...`` (A customs officer had sent him, after I had refused a bribe.....)


BTW, US has been the best, they slide the passport thru and off you go.....2 seconds. HKG was also good and so was UK (on Indian passport) .... they just stamp it without looking at you.

Beena:

I completely agree with the spirit of your article. Those who talk about jihadis coming in India should know that jihadis or other agents have no problem entering. I have gone through Indian immigration lines; they are less efficiently manned than those by summer student inspectors at Canadian airports. The Indian babus pore over the passport and the forms filled by the passenger with a fine toothed comb but hardly ever bother to look at the person or ask him or her any questions.

When people from the two countries get used to visiting each other, there probably will be less need for any hostile agents to enter the country. My fear is that Musharraf is probably going to derail this process if he thinks that the resulting bonhommie will make it difficult for him to turn on the jihadi tap against India at will.

But Beena, people going to India or Pakistan have to respect the fact that they are going to a foreign country. No country allows people on visitor`s visas to indulge in any other activity; why should Indians or Pakistanis expect differently from their countries?

Just in time:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-3-2005_pg3_3

[Unless you can produce excellent references, your application will be referred to Rabat, and it can take well over a month to be processed....But this is equally true for most Muslim countries when dealing with Pakistani visitors, and reflects on our reputation as the most terrorist-friendly state in the world...]

Even muslim countries know who pakis are ...... So what propels fools sitting in delhi giving free-entry to pakis? how can anybody be so delf-deluded?

This visa-less entry for pakis is a disaster-waiting-to-happen.

This is how it`s going to turn out: Jihadis will pour in, pass themselves as Indians and wreak havoc. Pakis will shrug and say ``we are friends - we don`t send jihadis no more. It`s the indian muslims who are doing it``. Pakis would have yet another ``plausible deniability``.

Now that would give RSS/VHP another shot in the arm and they will go beserk. Riots will break all over the country. Thsousands will die - most of them would be muslim indians. It would be gujrat multiplied a 100 times.

Pakis who are shedding copious tears about ``friendship`` now - would laugh all the way to nearest Madrassa.

Fools die - fools always die. Those ruled by fools - die in even greater numbers. So - in next one year, when jihad breaks out all over the country - remember you read it here first. You were fore-warned here.

Now - enjoy the ``friendship`` party, while it lasts ;))))

//....There is no reason why Pakistanis should have to stand in special lines to register their arrival at the Indian port of entry....//

well - Pakistanis get `special treatment` in every other port-of-entry in the world. WHy should India do different? Actually - considering pakis have been sponsoring jihad and ``death by thousand cuts`` against India [ ans still do ] - I think it`s necessary.

I agree. Bureaucratic hurdles make no sense. They should start issuing multiple entry visas that allow the freedom to travel to any part of the country.

I agree. Bureaucratic hurdles make no sense. They should start issuing multiple entry visas that allow the freedom to travel to any part of the country.