Country Visa, City Visa

I agree. Bureaucratic hurdles make no sense. They should start issuing multiple entry visas that allow the freedom to travel to any part of the country.

I agree. Bureaucratic hurdles make no sense. They should start issuing multiple entry visas that allow the freedom to travel to any part of the country.

//....There is no reason why Pakistanis should have to stand in special lines to register their arrival at the Indian port of entry....//

well - Pakistanis get `special treatment` in every other port-of-entry in the world. WHy should India do different? Actually - considering pakis have been sponsoring jihad and ``death by thousand cuts`` against India [ ans still do ] - I think it`s necessary.

This visa-less entry for pakis is a disaster-waiting-to-happen.

This is how it`s going to turn out: Jihadis will pour in, pass themselves as Indians and wreak havoc. Pakis will shrug and say ``we are friends - we don`t send jihadis no more. It`s the indian muslims who are doing it``. Pakis would have yet another ``plausible deniability``.

Now that would give RSS/VHP another shot in the arm and they will go beserk. Riots will break all over the country. Thsousands will die - most of them would be muslim indians. It would be gujrat multiplied a 100 times.

Pakis who are shedding copious tears about ``friendship`` now - would laugh all the way to nearest Madrassa.

Fools die - fools always die. Those ruled by fools - die in even greater numbers. So - in next one year, when jihad breaks out all over the country - remember you read it here first. You were fore-warned here.

Now - enjoy the ``friendship`` party, while it lasts ;))))

Just in time:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-3-2005_pg3_3

[Unless you can produce excellent references, your application will be referred to Rabat, and it can take well over a month to be processed....But this is equally true for most Muslim countries when dealing with Pakistani visitors, and reflects on our reputation as the most terrorist-friendly state in the world...]

Even muslim countries know who pakis are ...... So what propels fools sitting in delhi giving free-entry to pakis? how can anybody be so delf-deluded?

Beena:

I completely agree with the spirit of your article. Those who talk about jihadis coming in India should know that jihadis or other agents have no problem entering. I have gone through Indian immigration lines; they are less efficiently manned than those by summer student inspectors at Canadian airports. The Indian babus pore over the passport and the forms filled by the passenger with a fine toothed comb but hardly ever bother to look at the person or ask him or her any questions.

When people from the two countries get used to visiting each other, there probably will be less need for any hostile agents to enter the country. My fear is that Musharraf is probably going to derail this process if he thinks that the resulting bonhommie will make it difficult for him to turn on the jihadi tap against India at will.

But Beena, people going to India or Pakistan have to respect the fact that they are going to a foreign country. No country allows people on visitor`s visas to indulge in any other activity; why should Indians or Pakistanis expect differently from their countries?

Of all the nations i`ve been, India`s immigration is the WORST by far. Ever since my US passport, things have been much better, still the worst.

They turn the passport upside down. Flip thru every page. Find an `advise` or suggestion. Claim that the photo doesn`t match. etc etc. Question the `intentions`....and then, send a `choora` after you, even outside the airport,.....Once, this `choora` followed me outside and started yelling.....``Sardar ji, aapko sharam nahin aati, bina kujh diye chal diye.....humaray bachon ka kiya baney ga...`` (A customs officer had sent him, after I had refused a bribe.....)


BTW, US has been the best, they slide the passport thru and off you go.....2 seconds. HKG was also good and so was UK (on Indian passport) .... they just stamp it without looking at you.

Paksitan and India should completely open up their visa procedures. Let anyone who wants to come and go, do so. Pakistan will be the bigger winner in this. It will get a lot of tourists from India. And a lot of Indian opinions about Pakistan will change, once they actually get to see Pakistan and realize it is different from what they have been told, all their lives......

The best immigration services I have ever seen, have to be the ones in Canada. I am a Canadian citizen now, and everything from the day I filled out the first form, till today has worked almost exactly like clockwork. Literally to the last day and week, as advertised. And the day you land in Canada, you are part of the system as a resident. Not a disposable work visa worker. And I have not had to use a single lawyer anywhere. Canadian immigration at the airports is great also. Always a smiling face.

There is still a lot of, ``innocence`` amongst Canadians. Something I have not seen in any country, before or after 9/11........

The USA used to be alright. But their green card and citizenship procedures are very disorganized and understaffed. It took months and months just to get a work visa. Indians are the most affected by this, and many are unable to get a green card, even in six years. Recently, the USA has lost a lot of goodwill amongst individuals who were otherwise pro-USA, due to its ridiculous immigration procedures. I once had a US immigration officer literally apologize to me for all the questions he had to ask. And one even laughed at the procedures, themselves.

Pakistani immigration is, now, the strictest I have seen anywhere. Checking in and out of Pakistani airports, on international flights, requires going through multiple scans and manual checks and sign-offs.

Haven`t been to India yet, so cannot comment on that...........

Re: # 6 DM
//...When people from the two countries get used to visiting each other, there probably will be less need for any hostile agents to enter the country...//

Sure - if wishes were horses.....

Look - I am sure people like Beena are good pakistanis. I believe Beena never supported jihad, ever in her life .... or ever donated in omni-present jihad donation boxes [That`s the universal definition of a good pakistani]. ..... And I am sure she wants India-paki friendship and all such good things.

But the fact is that people like beena don`t matter, in pakistan. Only people who matter are mullahs, closet-mullahs, military - all jihadis. That`s the reality. You can have as much people flowing thru border as you want - that won`t change a thing. Jihad is an ideology that has been incorporate into ``pakistan ideology`` for a long time. And there is no reason to beleive anything has changed on that front. Or will ever change.

Get wise when you still have time.

+++

//.... I have gone through Indian immigration lines; they are less efficiently manned than those by summer student inspectors at Canadian airports....//

Just because you have inefficient immigration doesn`t mean you give visa-free entry to pakis. That`s basically opening doors for jihadis. If Indian immigration is NOT efficient, then it`s necessary that India has to make them efficient.

Either way - the question still remains: While muslim countries themselves are giving ``special treatment`` to pakis at their ports-of-entry - why should India be giving visa-free entries? In fact - India has all reasons to make sure pakis get even stricter ``special`` considerations.

And what is the backup-plan if this ``people-to-people`` stunt blows up in your face [which it will - sooner rather later] ???? What do you do when jihad breaks out all over the country? Or is that completely outside the realm of possibilities?

Any thoughts Mr DM? You can bet that none of these wonderful friendship-seeking pakis will come to your support. Heck - I have never seen any paki in last 15 years who ever asked their establishment to stop jihad against India. Have you?

So what makes you sure that this time it will be any different? After all - this is not the first time ``friendship`` is being touted - right? Is this the age-old indian stupidity manifesting itself - you know, the story about some guy getting attacked by some invader 17 times, defating him all the times and yet letting him go free. How much more - when do you learn?

Mohar,

We are not talking about visa-free travel between India and Pakistan. That is not likely any time soon. But why can`t we have the same level of visa procedures with Pakistan that we have with other islamic countries? What is the need for excessive police reporting, city specific visas, the fixation about the port of entry etc? For example, recently the film star Meera had visa for both Delhi and Mumbai but her port of entry was Mumbai. When she showed up at Delhi from Karachi, she was refused entry and almost deported back, until Mahesh Bhatt pulled some strings and let her in. This is needless harassment and bureaucracy and has nothing to do with fighting jihad. It is a legacy of our government`s tendency to treat each other`s citizens like dirt. Same goes for giving multiple entry visas, business visas etc.

We have not yet reached a trust level where we can drop visas and we need to be careful about jihadi elements. But the current procedures are way too extreme in their rigidity and serve no useful purpose except to harass ordinary people. It is in our interest to accelearte more people to people contact while balancing the needs for security.

amit
//....why can`t we have the same level of visa procedures with Pakistan that we have with other islamic countries?...//

Because - other islamic countries do NOT sponsor jihad against India. [ Saudis, to some extent, are involved in financing.]

+++

//....We are not talking about visa-free travel between India and Pakistan. That is not likely any time soon....//

I thought it`s going to happen in April - with the bus service across LOC. Any paki can enter India visa-free, using that bus service. Isn`t that true?

+++

//...This is needless harassment and bureaucracy and has nothing to do with fighting jihad...//

I am all for bureaucratic simplification so that the good folks like Beena can get in. But there is complete lack of analysis on security implications - everybody seems to be caught up in the euphoria. That`s going to back-fire, very badly.

Its call of the hour that India and Pakistan should alleviate or at least ease visa restrictions policies. But intelligentsia on both sides of the border is in dilemma whether India can be trusted? We are not first time “building confidence measures”. We are doing this for last 57-years of our national life. Every time some “mysterious” hands come into play and derail the whole peace process. It would be much enough this time that both sides should eliminate such elements which destroy these peace making efforts or at least attempts to do so. Both countries are mature enough to cope with state of affairs, both are nuclear nations; both have equal level of poverty (Indian is leading in this aspect of her national life), law and order situation, domestic political vendetta and sectarian disturbances.

It’s recommended that both Pakistan and Indian should shed away bogy of “partisan” stands on core issues and come to face realities. Kashmir is a solid stumbling block between two nations. Is this something unsolvable? Enough measured have been “build” to cement confidence, now should talk about Kashmir. No body should hesitate to tackle this matter. Their should not be any sort of “ego” involvement. This way will lead to an amicable solution of the Kashmir issue which would certainly be endorsed by Kashmiri’s as well.

Dr. Tallat Abid

Re: # 13 Dr. Tallat Abid

yet another paki ``Doctor`` pontificating on ``core issue``.

b_banth#13:

With all due respect, it is not India that derails the normalisation process nor is it the core issue that does it, but it is Pakistan`s obsession with the core issue which always has and probably will derail the process again. Let`s learn from India-China and China-Taiwan how countries can maintain their postions while normalisation continues. It appears, for instance, that after several years of progress on normalisation, China and India are now addressing the intractable core boundary issue facing them. It also seems that the talks are proceeding without any of the tensions which surround any Kashmir talks and prevents the parties from making the kind of accomodation to the other`s point of view which is needed to resolve long standing intractable issues.
So, let the people meet. Let the old prejudices disappear. Let the atmosphere of friendship bloom to create the right conditions for a rapproachment on the core issue.

DM,

I respect your consistently clear and balanced outlook on many issues. But you are naive on the Indo/Pak and Hindu/Muslim`s this aspect of the issues. You cannot mix oil and water. It is politically incorect, yet it is the bitter truth.

A practising Hindu and a practising muslim cannot coexist. It has nothing to do with prejudices. You shouldn`t create or repeat the conditions to once again blowup like 47 and many other small blowups.

Under optimistic hope, the two can live as good neighbors with good fence, thats about it.