Pakistan Travelogue II

re: Manto`s various posts
Manto,
Give up man.
You are fighting a losing battle.
Your own country`s rulers have give up the ``Two nation theory``. Won`t u, a loyal subject, follow suit?
http://www.keralanext.com/news/indexread.asp?id=170822
(Asia ; Pakistan formally buries two-nation theory:
Friday, April 01, 2005


[Asia News] New Delhi, April 1 (IANS) Almost six decades after the sub-continent`s partition, Pakistan`s ruling party Friday gave a formal burial to the two-nation theory by urging Indian Muslims to love their motherland.

In a speech laced with political significance, former Pakistan prime minister Shujat Hussain prayed at the historic Jama Masjid and called upon Indian Muslims to integrate themselves fully with the mainstream.

``You are Indians by choice. So live like Indians. Nobody forced you to stay back (and not settle in Pakistan),`` Hussain told a large gathering at the 17th-century red stone mosque in the city`s old quarters.

He reminded the gathering in Urdu that Indian Muslims should love their motherland as they stayed back in India, rejecting the offer to move over to the newly created Pakistan.

``You (Indian Muslims) should do everything for the progress and development of the country,`` he said.

Hussain, who is president of the ruling Pakistan Muslim League, is the highest- ranking Pakistani leader to visit the Jama Masjid, which along with the Red Fort across the street was built by Mughal emperor Shah Jahan.

The Pakistan Muslim League, although now divided into more than one faction, considers itself the rightful successor to the Muslims League that led the drive for Pakistan`s creation.

Hussain also referred to India-Pakistan relations, saying he was optimistic that both countries would be able to resolve all their differences and soon.

``I am positive India and Pakistan will resolve their differences. This is also because Indian leaders, be they in the government or the opposition, are in agreement on the issue of overcoming the differences with Pakistan.

``When the attitude of the leaders is right, then there can be no hitch.``

He also singled out Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf for the thaw in India-Pakistan ties. ``There are impediments in India-Pakistan relations, but Musharraf is determined to do away with them.``

The former prime minister, who spent about an hour at the mosque, said: ``I am overwhelmed by the hospitality I received.)
Sridhar

Re: # 764

Your inability to stick with the topic and your determination to confuse the issues is indicative of your utter desperation....

Here is what you are trying to ignore

755 by Mantolives on April 15, 2005 7:13am PT
Dear Indians,

I will take the past few posts in which you people have resorted to insults, abuse and finally changing the topic by putting up a post about Gandhi`s greatness, as a concession of defeat.

I understand it is hard for you to logically debate valid historical points.

Still I`ll try .... please answer the post 746:

#746 by Mantolives on April 15, 2005 4:42am PT
Re: # 745

Tsk tsk... You can`t argue with logic and facts so you resort to petty insults and abuse? That is funny.

The quote I put up is from Wolpert also... and unlike the internet excerpt, he is quoting a primary source here.

So rich and fanatical Hindus barricading a city from poor factory workers assembling peacefuly to attend a rally is perfectly alright? What is clear is that Hindus had decided to stop these poor workers from entering the city at all costs thereby stoking the communal fire. Only you can`t see the devious plan of the Congress Party? Fanatical bigotry had forced the Hindus to stop Muslims at all costs... including resorting to murder and mayhem.

Let me ask you some questions again....


1) Why if communal violence was the objective did ML not choose Delhi or Lahore where it had much more muscle and where it could blame it on another government?

2) Why if communal violence was the objective did ML didn`t start it else where in Bengal where Muslims were in a majority?

3) Why if ML had preplanned the whole thing, did Hindus still manage to kill many times more Muslims than Hindus? Are Hindus superhuman? Or do God`s deities help them?

4) Why was Patel gloating if Congress had nothing to do with it? Was it Hindu Pride? or was it an indication of Congress plan working ... as in destabilizing the cross communal alliance on which ML ministry stood?

5) Why was the direct action day an overwhelming success, as evidenced by the Congress paper, all over India, and yet no violence broke out where Muslim League was the strongest or where Jinnah himself was physically present?

6) Why didn`t communal violence break out in Bombay where Muslim League had won 40 seats and which was by far the most volatile Indian city?


And last but not the least:

7) Why did Lord Wavell who was in the Congress Pocket absolve Muslim League Ministry of all blame for Calcutta?


You see the contradictions of the Indian propaganda have been exposed and all you can do is quote ``journalese reports``....


and


#741 by Mantolives on April 15, 2005 0:52am PT

Since you`ve already declared Wolpert to be a credible author based on some INTERNET excerpt.....

Here is something directly out of his book Jinnah of Pakistan that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Hindus led by the Congress Party started all the trouble to taint the Muslim League with violece:

On Page 284

`Muslim workers from Howrah Jute Mill had begun pouring into the city toward Ochterlony`s ``needle`` Monument for a mamoth meeting to celebrate direct action day. Chief minister Suhrawardy and some other leaders of Bengal`s Muslim League were scheduled to address the meeting. Reports that ``Hindus had erected barricades at the Tala and Belgachia bridges to prevent Muslims from entering the city`` reached British headquarters by 7 30 AM, but the Brigadier in command of Calcutta, JPC Mackinlay had ordered all of his troops confined to barracks that day.`


MY COMMENTS Stanley Wolpert has quoted a primary source Col Burrows to Lord Wavell from transfer of power papers volume 9.


When read in conjunction with Lord Wavell`s letter (which absolves the League ministry of any responsibility) on Page 879 IBID.... and Sardar Patel`s letter in which he is gloating about many more Muslims getting killed.... it becomes clear that even before Muslims came to the city to celebrate peacefuly direct action day .... the Hindus had been planning to sabotage the event by violence and they did so .... with great success.... murdering Muslim men raping Muslim women and pillaging Muslim households.

Now hatemongering fanatics and Gandhians on these boards CAN LIE all they want... misquote and try and latch on to small mercies of their foreign masters like the Time Magazine... the fact remains.... that it was the Congress Party that effectively ruined an otherwise successful direct action day.... for the simple and machiavellian purpose of bringing down the League Ministry which depended on Cross communal alliances.

These are the facts... whether Gurumoorthy or Rsidhar or Netizen decide to evade them is another issue.

So far I haven`t received an adequate reply except utter and total garbage... by a bunch of Indians, who can`t argue on facts and logic... and so debase themselves and everyone`s intellect by resorting to insults and namecalling matches...

Come back and argue when you are able to.

re: #747 by Mantolives
Manto mian,
This was what Mani Shankar Iyer (an idiot in my opinion) said:
``In his address, the Union Minister for Petroleum & Natural Gas, Mani Shankar Aiyar, said: `` India-Pakistan relations should not be seen as a `Hindu-Muslim` issue. India is not a Hindu State. Pakistan is an Islamic State, but it is not representative of the Muslim voice of India.``
Read the last sentence again. If u believe in the spirit of that article (from Hindu), then u must also believe what Iyer said there. He is saying that Pak is not representative of voice of muslims of India.
This is what Pak ambassador to India also said sometime ago. It seems that Pak rulers have quietly buried the ``Two nation theory``, the very foundation of the basis of Pak at the time of inception.
Now, your rulers have finally found some common sense and realized that Pak`s existence need not be based on some nonsensical ideology espoused by its founder.
Basically, the concept of ``Two nation theory`` is dead.
So, what did Jinnah live for.
He gave up all his cherished ideals: of hindu-muslim unity, of secularism and founded a nation on the basis of ``Two nation theory`` (the basis of which is that muslims cannot live with hindus). Even that cherished ideal is gone now.
Sridhar

re: #747 by Mantolives
Manto mian,
This was what Mani Shankar Iyer (an idiot in my opinion) said:
``In his address, the Union Minister for Petroleum & Natural Gas, Mani Shankar Aiyar, said: `` India-Pakistan relations should not be seen as a `Hindu-Muslim` issue. India is not a Hindu State. Pakistan is an Islamic State, but it is not representative of the Muslim voice of India.``
Read the last sentence again. If u believe in the spirit of that article (from Hindu), then u must also believe what Iyer said there. He is saying that Pak is not representative of voice of muslims of India.
This is what Pak ambassador to India also said sometime ago. It seems that Pak rulers have quietly buried the ``Two nation theory``, the very foundation of the basis of Pak at the time of inception.
Now, your rulers have finally found some common sense and realized that Pak`s existence need not be based on some nonsensical ideology espoused by its founder.
Basically, the concept of ``Two nation theory`` is dead.
So, what did Jinnah live for.
He gave up all his cherished ideals: of hindu-muslim unity, of secularism and founded a nation on the basis of ``Two nation theory`` (the basis of which is that muslims cannot live with hindus). Even that cherished ideal is gone now.
Sridhar

Re: # 762

The great man retired the tnt himself after partition....

So you are 57 years late.

Re # various

Manto,

Suppose, just suppose, you are able to convice Indians that indeed Congress, Mr. Nehru,
Mr. Gandhi, Mr. Patel was at fault to cause partition of India, what do you expect
Indians to do?

Suppose, just suppose, you get convinced that indeed Muslim Leage and Mr. Jinnah was
at fault to cause partition of India, what would you do?

Re: # 759

a) I don`t expect anyone of you to do anything.... Please read the ``Jumbo`` post above (747) ... it is clear that Indians have already begun to accept who was at fault.

b) I don`t like to opine on irrational what ifs.

Dear Indians,

I will take the past few posts in which you people have resorted to insults, abuse and finally changing the topic by putting up a post about Gandhi`s greatness, as a concession of defeat.

I understand it is hard for you to logically debate valid historical points.

Still I`ll try .... please answer the post 746:

#746 by Mantolives on April 15, 2005 4:42am PT
Re: # 745

Tsk tsk... You can`t argue with logic and facts so you resort to petty insults and abuse? That is funny.

The quote I put up is from Wolpert also... and unlike the internet excerpt, he is quoting a primary source here.

So rich and fanatical Hindus barricading a city from poor factory workers assembling peacefuly to attend a rally is perfectly alright? What is clear is that Hindus had decided to stop these poor workers from entering the city at all costs thereby stoking the communal fire. Only you can`t see the devious plan of the Congress Party? Fanatical bigotry had forced the Hindus to stop Muslims at all costs... including resorting to murder and mayhem.

Let me ask you some questions again....


1) Why if communal violence was the objective did ML not choose Delhi or Lahore where it had much more muscle and where it could blame it on another government?

2) Why if communal violence was the objective did ML didn`t start it else where in Bengal where Muslims were in a majority?

3) Why if ML had preplanned the whole thing, did Hindus still manage to kill many times more Muslims than Hindus? Are Hindus superhuman? Or do God`s deities help them?

4) Why was Patel gloating if Congress had nothing to do with it? Was it Hindu Pride? or was it an indication of Congress plan working ... as in destabilizing the cross communal alliance on which ML ministry stood?

5) Why was the direct action day an overwhelming success, as evidenced by the Congress paper, all over India, and yet no violence broke out where Muslim League was the strongest or where Jinnah himself was physically present?

6) Why didn`t communal violence break out in Bombay where Muslim League had won 40 seats and which was by far the most volatile Indian city?


And last but not the least:

7) Why did Lord Wavell who was in the Congress Pocket absolve Muslim League Ministry of all blame for Calcutta?


You see the contradictions of the Indian propaganda have been exposed and all you can do is quote ``journalese reports``....


and


#741 by Mantolives on April 15, 2005 0:52am PT

Since you`ve already declared Wolpert to be a credible author based on some INTERNET excerpt.....

Here is something directly out of his book Jinnah of Pakistan that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Hindus led by the Congress Party started all the trouble to taint the Muslim League with violece:

On Page 284

`Muslim workers from Howrah Jute Mill had begun pouring into the city toward Ochterlony`s ``needle`` Monument for a mamoth meeting to celebrate direct action day. Chief minister Suhrawardy and some other leaders of Bengal`s Muslim League were scheduled to address the meeting. Reports that ``Hindus had erected barricades at the Tala and Belgachia bridges to prevent Muslims from entering the city`` reached British headquarters by 7 30 AM, but the Brigadier in command of Calcutta, JPC Mackinlay had ordered all of his troops confined to barracks that day.`


MY COMMENTS Stanley Wolpert has quoted a primary source Col Burrows to Lord Wavell from transfer of power papers volume 9.


When read in conjunction with Lord Wavell`s letter (which absolves the League ministry of any responsibility) on Page 879 IBID.... and Sardar Patel`s letter in which he is gloating about many more Muslims getting killed.... it becomes clear that even before Muslims came to the city to celebrate peacefuly direct action day .... the Hindus had been planning to sabotage the event by violence and they did so .... with great success.... murdering Muslim men raping Muslim women and pillaging Muslim households.

Now hatemongering fanatics and Gandhians on these boards CAN LIE all they want... misquote and try and latch on to small mercies of their foreign masters like the Time Magazine... the fact remains.... that it was the Congress Party that effectively ruined an otherwise successful direct action day.... for the simple and machiavellian purpose of bringing down the League Ministry which depended on Cross communal alliances.

These are the facts... whether Gurumoorthy or Rsidhar or Netizen decide to evade them is another issue.



So far I haven`t received an adequate reply except utter and total garbage... by a bunch of Indians, who can`t argue on facts and logic... and so debase themselves and everyone`s intellect by resorting to insults and namecalling matches...

Come back and argue when you are able to.

harish, sridhar

Ha Ha - Looks like you guys are beating YLH in his own game - quoting directly from Wolpert :)))

Re: # 752

ah.... you wish ...

I think the board speaks for itself as to who beat who at what game...

The only way you Indians can win is by patting each other on the back like a bunch of losers.

Re: # 753 YLH
//...The only way you Indians can win ...//

Who said about a ``win``? As far jinnah is concerned - nobody can win aginst YLH, the worshipper :)

All the same - it was interesting how Harish used Wolpert [the holy grail] to catch you in your own web.

Anyway - don`t get distracted - carry on. Beat the Indians to pulp with your formidable weapons from Wolpert, the wise-guy :)

Re: # 758

This is where you are mistaken... I haven`t used Wolpert since 2001 (and today when Harish Hyd said he was a credible historian)... that was an initial phase for me... an appetizer if you will. His history is for the beginners.

Just goes to show that you don`t read. Had you read you would know that I have moved way ahead.

So why don`t you admit this was a shameless attempt on your part to try and help your compatriots who have made an utter fool out of themselves....

Is it any wonder given the utter dishonesty of Indians here, that you people are proved wrong constantly?

re:#747 by Mantolives
Manto mian,
India is a democracy. However imperfect that democracy may be, it still is a democracy. So, i guess some people can go on stage and say Jinnah is a ``subcontinental hero`` and get away with it. They won`t get hanged.
Is there even one Paki who said Gandhi is a ``subcontinental hero``? Not that the world cares.
Gandhi is finding some use in Palestine today, albeit not without some controversy.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050405/55971.html?.v=1

(Gandhi Project to Launch in the Palestinian Territories Tomorrow
Tuesday April 5, 3:24 pm ET
Sir Ben Kingsley and Delegation Set to Attend World Premiere of Arabic-Dubbed Version of the Oscar Award-Winning Epic Film ``Gandhi``

RAMALLAH, Palestine--(BUSINESS WIRE)--April 5, 2005--The ``Gandhi Project`` (www.GandhiProject.org) will launch tomorrow, Wednesday April 6th at 4:00pm in the Ramallah Cultural Palace with the screening of the epic film ``Gandhi`` (winner of 9 Oscars including Best Picture). Working with Palestinian voice actors and artists, the film was dubbed into Arabic by the award-winning Palestinian director Hanna Elias. The Ramallah event will be followed by screenings in Jerusalem on April 7th, Bethlehem on April 9th and Gaza on April 14th. The April launch in Palestine will be followed in May by screenings in Jordan, Lebanon and Syria.

The ``Gandhi Project`` aims to support Palestinian civil society organizations engaged in activities consistent with the liberation philosophy and life practice of Gandhi who stood against occupation through peaceful resistance and civil disobedience. With the screening of the film ``Gandhi,`` the project kick-starts a series of activities and programs to empower civil society and community based organizations in advancing their goals of peaceful resistance, self-reliance, economic development and local empowerment. In the Palestinian Territories, the film will be shown in many cities, refugee camps, and villages. In addition to the screenings, the Gandhi Project will provide direct support to relevant educational and community and economic development projects.

Prior to the first official screening of the film ``Gandhi`` in Ramallah, a press conference will be held on April 6th from 1:00-3:00pm at the Grand Park Hotel to announce the launching of the project and to provide information regarding the long-term objectives of the Gandhi Project. Invited to the official screening at 4:00pm of the same day are many Palestinians from all segments of society including leaders from local communities and several ministers of the Palestinian Government. Both the press conference and the official opening of the project will be attended by Sir Ben Kingsley, who won the Best Actor Oscar for his portrayal of Gandhi in the film, Mr. Jake Eberts the producer of the film, and Palestinian director Mr. Hanna Elias who oversaw the dubbing of the movie into Arabic. Also in attendance will be project sponsors Mr. Jeff Skoll (founder of the Skoll Foundation, the media company ``Participant Productions`` and co-founder of eBay Inc.) and Mr. Kamran Elahian, Silicon Valley entrepreneur and founder of Global Catalyst Foundation.

The Gandhi Project is a collaborative program of a collective of Palestinian NGOs and Relief International - Schools Online (RI-SOL) (www.ri.org and www.SchoolsOnline.org). The project is sponsored by the Skoll Foundation.)

Manto mian,
While u are busy criticising Gandhi, the movie Gandhi has been now translated into Arabic (the language of your religious masters) and the film was recently released in West Bank. Hopefully, a large number of Palestenians will watch it and get inspired by it.
http://bedouina.typepad.com/doves_eye/2005/04/gandhi_in_arabi.html
Sridhar

Re: # 751

This is your response to my questions? A movie about Gandhi?

Desperation at its worst!

re:#747 by Mantolives

``Lamenting the fact that Indians knew very little of Jinnah unlike Pakistanis who were well versed with Gandhi, the Hindi scholar, Ved Prakash Vaidik, said Jinnah should be accepted as a ``sub-continental hero.``
Ha, ha, ha!
I had a good laugh.
Who the fukc is this Hindi scholar? Never heard of him.
Jinnah is a ``subcontinental hero``!
Now, that is a joke.
The more i read about Jinnah (and i have been doing some reading on and off as time permits), the more i am convinced the guy was conniving, brilliant but evil.
He set up a goal of achieiving a seperate state for muslims,without thinking much about millions who would still be left stranded in India, without anythought about the violence that would be unleashed (if he did not foresee this, he was not well informed) when partition was thrust upon a hapless populace.
Jiinah can never be my hero, not even on my deathbed.
He is just a despicable character. The more i read about him, the more i hate him.
A cool, calculating guy, who called for Direct Action Day, never once went to the scene of tragedy or tried to stop the carnage, can never be my hero.
If India has to improve, it should compete with China, not Pakistan.
There is a worthy competitor.
Peace with Pak is important but there is nothing much to learn from that benighted nation and its benighted inhabitants.
Sridhar

Re: # 750

PS Try the book ... `` Jinnah : A corrective reading of Indian History`` by Professor Asiananda which comes highly recommended by the Congress government....

Maybe it will give your snakes of hate a little rest...