Sexual Harassment in Karachi: Whose Fault?
Corina Carrumba April 7, 2005
#113 Posted by articulating on December 10, 2005 12:43:50 pm
almost eveeything i was going to say has already been said.......except for......the article was sensitively written and the personal experiences of the author is what i can relate to........1 million %........thanx!
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#112 Posted by abskii on April 15, 2005 5:05:38 pm
thank you for your article - very intresting.
as a gori, i was cautious about my first visit to pakistan (staying with family in mirpur, near Islamabad). and i never once felt threatened (felt some letcherous stares, though).
But i will freely admit that i felt restricted - unable to even do for a walk round the village
(although it was shocking when i went to the toilet on my second day and my friend was sent to see if i was lost!)
If my other plan falls through, I may be visiting Karachi alone as i have an aquaitance who has offered to show me around. would i be crazy to do it??
as a gori, i was cautious about my first visit to pakistan (staying with family in mirpur, near Islamabad). and i never once felt threatened (felt some letcherous stares, though).
But i will freely admit that i felt restricted - unable to even do for a walk round the village
(although it was shocking when i went to the toilet on my second day and my friend was sent to see if i was lost!)
If my other plan falls through, I may be visiting Karachi alone as i have an aquaitance who has offered to show me around. would i be crazy to do it??
#111 Posted by Romair on April 13, 2005 4:51:41 pm
Sattar2 #110: You are correct that it is everyone`s responsibility to create an enabling environment. However, that never happens. If it did, the world would be a very peaceful place. It is the oppressed who have always had to kick and fight to create an enabling environment, for themselves.
In the USA, the reason Pakistanis and others have had it pretty good is because of the battles fought by the Jewish and Black minorities to get civil rights for everyone. Those rights weren`t given to them. Do keep in mind that Blacks were second rate citizens uptil almost 1970 - hundreds of years after arriving in USA. Hindus were occupied by foreign powers for 1000 years. Until they finally got independence, on their own.
It would be interesting to do a study on how Pakistanis are faring in UK, USA, and Canada. I think USA and Canadian Pakistanis are from similar backgrounds. While, as a whole, those in UK are from a different background.
I have not lived in UK, so I don`t know how they are doing. But I have a relatively good understanding of the differences in Canada and US. And they are quite significant. The Pakistani community in Canada is very confident, even aggressive. It considers itself Canadian, unilike the one in the USA, which is still on the fringes.
The Canadian community is now fully into politics. I never participated in an election campaign in the USA, but have arleady heavily participated in one, here. Pakistani women and girls here, confidently wear shalwar kameez, hijab etc. without any fear. And the mainstream politicians are now starting to cater to the Pakistani community, to some extent.
If you look at the Punjabi community (Pakistani Punjabis combined with Sikhs), the influence is even more.
In the USA, there is absolutely nothing like that. Pakistanis are even scared, now, to some extent. I have seen maybe one or two on the major TV channels. And that too, in an Uncle Tomish manner. Here in Canada, they are a dime a dozen. Every week there are Pakistanis on talk shows, aggressively pushing their agenda. Canadian federal ministers appear on Pakistani talk shows. etc. etc.
Why such a difference? I don`t know. One reason has to be, as you said, the space that Canada allows to everyone. In this, Canada has to be unique. The second could be that the pro-Israeli lobby does not enjoy nearly the same influence in Canada, as it does in the USA. It tried very very hard to get Canada into the Iraq war, and into a subsequent conflict with Muslims in general, but did not succeed. I think America`s involvements in the Middle East have made it tougher for certain minorities in the USA, now. Canada has stayed away from that.
A third reason could be the rapid rise of South Asians in Toronto and Arabs in Montreal. In twelve years, 19% of the minority population of Montreal will be Arab. In twelve years, there will be about 2 million South Asians in Canada, in a total population of plus/minus 35 million. That would be the equivalent of around 18 million South Asians in the USA. One million of them will be living in Toronto. So one out of every eight or so Torontonians will be South Asian, statistically.
Another reason is that the minorities in Canada aren`t fighting it out with each other (other than the pro-Israeli lobby) to influence Canadian policy on issues overseas, since Canada has very little influence. While those in USA are doing so.
But, I think, in all of this, the main reasons have been the minorities, themselves, taking advantage of the situations.
In the USA, the reason Pakistanis and others have had it pretty good is because of the battles fought by the Jewish and Black minorities to get civil rights for everyone. Those rights weren`t given to them. Do keep in mind that Blacks were second rate citizens uptil almost 1970 - hundreds of years after arriving in USA. Hindus were occupied by foreign powers for 1000 years. Until they finally got independence, on their own.
It would be interesting to do a study on how Pakistanis are faring in UK, USA, and Canada. I think USA and Canadian Pakistanis are from similar backgrounds. While, as a whole, those in UK are from a different background.
I have not lived in UK, so I don`t know how they are doing. But I have a relatively good understanding of the differences in Canada and US. And they are quite significant. The Pakistani community in Canada is very confident, even aggressive. It considers itself Canadian, unilike the one in the USA, which is still on the fringes.
The Canadian community is now fully into politics. I never participated in an election campaign in the USA, but have arleady heavily participated in one, here. Pakistani women and girls here, confidently wear shalwar kameez, hijab etc. without any fear. And the mainstream politicians are now starting to cater to the Pakistani community, to some extent.
If you look at the Punjabi community (Pakistani Punjabis combined with Sikhs), the influence is even more.
In the USA, there is absolutely nothing like that. Pakistanis are even scared, now, to some extent. I have seen maybe one or two on the major TV channels. And that too, in an Uncle Tomish manner. Here in Canada, they are a dime a dozen. Every week there are Pakistanis on talk shows, aggressively pushing their agenda. Canadian federal ministers appear on Pakistani talk shows. etc. etc.
Why such a difference? I don`t know. One reason has to be, as you said, the space that Canada allows to everyone. In this, Canada has to be unique. The second could be that the pro-Israeli lobby does not enjoy nearly the same influence in Canada, as it does in the USA. It tried very very hard to get Canada into the Iraq war, and into a subsequent conflict with Muslims in general, but did not succeed. I think America`s involvements in the Middle East have made it tougher for certain minorities in the USA, now. Canada has stayed away from that.
A third reason could be the rapid rise of South Asians in Toronto and Arabs in Montreal. In twelve years, 19% of the minority population of Montreal will be Arab. In twelve years, there will be about 2 million South Asians in Canada, in a total population of plus/minus 35 million. That would be the equivalent of around 18 million South Asians in the USA. One million of them will be living in Toronto. So one out of every eight or so Torontonians will be South Asian, statistically.
Another reason is that the minorities in Canada aren`t fighting it out with each other (other than the pro-Israeli lobby) to influence Canadian policy on issues overseas, since Canada has very little influence. While those in USA are doing so.
But, I think, in all of this, the main reasons have been the minorities, themselves, taking advantage of the situations.
#110 Posted by sattar2 on April 13, 2005 9:55:38 am
Romair,
I am viewing the example of expat Pakistanis very differently than you …
If Pakistanis settled in Canada are better organized than their counterparts in the USA, it’s probably due to differences in their respective socio-political landscapes. This suggests that macro conditions to a great extent dictate how a community interacts with other elements of the society, and whether a people “excel” or “merely exist”. Giving most of the credit to Canadian-Pakistanis … and not to these conditions … is incorrect in my view.
In other words, did Pakistanis settled in Canada encounter severe discrimination and overcame big hurdles to rise to leadership? If yes, then what’s holding them back in USA? Pakistanis are the same … whether settled in Canada, in USA, or in the UK.
Furthermore, if some women are not interested in bettering women’s condition, it should not be held against women at large. Some women care, some do not, and that’s life. Given a chance, they will surely do better. Creating conditions conducive to such changes is everyone’s responsibility … more so of the privileged than the oppressed.
#109 Posted by temporal on April 12, 2005 6:35:54 pm
#107-108:
looks like a turf fight
the point it highlights is once again women are being made a scapegoat and they have no recourse to justice
a point that sajal and other women have made many times and they are fleeced by obfuscation
the query remains:
where is justice for the abused women?
#108 Posted by echoboom on April 12, 2005 5:04:59 pm
Orphan christain girls attacked in their hostel. Administrator`s stripped naked.
1. Ghazala Shafique, the administrator of the hostel reported that under police supervision, at the behest of one self-appointed Bishop Sadiq Daniel, George Bhattei, Zafar Iqbal, and ..(name not clear) 30/40 persons lay seige to the hostel.
2. They barged in and assaulted her and other girls.
3. later on she was stripped naked and paraded around.
She reported at a press conference in the presence of her husband Qadri shafiq kaNwal, Bishop Eijaz Naik and HR organisations.
4. When she called 15 ( emergency police #) the police & SHO of women police ( another Ghazala) provided protection to the assailants and continued their assaults even upon those who responded to help.
Police refused to register an FIR.
The victims have appealed the Federal, Provincial governments and Federal Justice department for intervention and propper action against Bishop George--who moves in very influential circles.
...Bishop George--who moves in very influential circles.....
Hmmmm!
So it is simply a matter of who owns the buffalo.
Hmmmmmmmmmm!
(and how much time we spent on intellectualising and maligning you-know-who)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
1. Ghazala Shafique, the administrator of the hostel reported that under police supervision, at the behest of one self-appointed Bishop Sadiq Daniel, George Bhattei, Zafar Iqbal, and ..(name not clear) 30/40 persons lay seige to the hostel.
2. They barged in and assaulted her and other girls.
3. later on she was stripped naked and paraded around.
She reported at a press conference in the presence of her husband Qadri shafiq kaNwal, Bishop Eijaz Naik and HR organisations.
4. When she called 15 ( emergency police #) the police & SHO of women police ( another Ghazala) provided protection to the assailants and continued their assaults even upon those who responded to help.
Police refused to register an FIR.
The victims have appealed the Federal, Provincial governments and Federal Justice department for intervention and propper action against Bishop George--who moves in very influential circles.
...Bishop George--who moves in very influential circles.....
Hmmmm!
So it is simply a matter of who owns the buffalo.
Hmmmmmmmmmm!
(and how much time we spent on intellectualising and maligning you-know-who)
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!
#107 Posted by echoboom on April 12, 2005 4:47:03 pm
The news that never happened: At least not for the English-medium papers. Jang reported it hidden inside.
Not the way such news get reported when `moderation` and `enlightenment` ( nudge nudge wink wink) seeks fatwaas to be declared Halaal.
Summary in english will follow this post.
Not the way such news get reported when `moderation` and `enlightenment` ( nudge nudge wink wink) seeks fatwaas to be declared Halaal.
Summary in english will follow this post.
#106 Posted by cayenne on April 12, 2005 1:40:56 am
It is always the fault of the men!!!.Why waste time arguing archaic religious edicts regarding societal rules , or regulating how men and women should behave in public?.Acc. to women it is always the fault of men.It is so much easier to placate women by agreeing with them and continuing to be what we are , MEN.Some of us will go to excess and must be punished.But men are from mars and women are from venus and that`s how nature has evolved.But all this debating and nit-picking will have disastrous consequences for both men and women and will come to naught.Better we debate over Morarji desai or punjabis and the perennial indo-pak issues which some day may even have a resolution.But not the behaviour of men and women.Live and let live.And punish those who cross the line as a deterrant for others, hopefully.
#105 Posted by Romair on April 11, 2005 10:53:39 pm
Corina #101:``Romair - using your logic - the fault of poverty in Pakistan`s class stratified society is that the poor havent stood up (are too lazy, timid?) for their rights. It has nothing to do with political or social or economic factors that perpetuate cycles of oppression? Thus the answer would be then for the poor to demand their rights without the rich realizing and acting upon their role in perpetuating cycles of oppression? Please, lets be more critical than that.``
This is not what I am saying. I am not saying the problems of women in Pakistan are self-created. Neither are the problems of the poor. However, the solutions for the problems in both communities will have to come from within their own groups.
And yes, people will only come out of poverty if they are able to demand their rights, on their own. Do you really think the rich will voluntarily hand it to them? Has that ever happened historically? The history of mankind and its social divisions are based on the rich and empowered (be they individuals or nations) exploiting the poor and weak. Not of the rich and empowered, helping the poor and weak.
Everywhere the weak have risen, has been through leadership within their own communities. Do you think the colonists would have left their colonies, had the locals not produced local leaderships?
So, the poor in Pakistan will rise only when they are able to force their way up, through leadership rising from within their own communities. Similary the women will rise, through leadership coming from within their own group. That is not how it should be, ethically speaking. But that is how it works, practically speaking. That is how women got their rights in Western countries. That is how the Blacks got their rights in the USA.
And I think the women in Pakistan (specifically the affluent) would be making a mistake, if they are relying on the men to provide them with their rights. The whole reason the women are oppressed is because men, as a whole, have something to gain from it. This is why the poor are oppressed, by the rich. Why would they give up these privelages voluntarily?
This is not what I am saying. I am not saying the problems of women in Pakistan are self-created. Neither are the problems of the poor. However, the solutions for the problems in both communities will have to come from within their own groups.
And yes, people will only come out of poverty if they are able to demand their rights, on their own. Do you really think the rich will voluntarily hand it to them? Has that ever happened historically? The history of mankind and its social divisions are based on the rich and empowered (be they individuals or nations) exploiting the poor and weak. Not of the rich and empowered, helping the poor and weak.
Everywhere the weak have risen, has been through leadership within their own communities. Do you think the colonists would have left their colonies, had the locals not produced local leaderships?
So, the poor in Pakistan will rise only when they are able to force their way up, through leadership rising from within their own communities. Similary the women will rise, through leadership coming from within their own group. That is not how it should be, ethically speaking. But that is how it works, practically speaking. That is how women got their rights in Western countries. That is how the Blacks got their rights in the USA.
And I think the women in Pakistan (specifically the affluent) would be making a mistake, if they are relying on the men to provide them with their rights. The whole reason the women are oppressed is because men, as a whole, have something to gain from it. This is why the poor are oppressed, by the rich. Why would they give up these privelages voluntarily?
#104 Posted by Romair on April 11, 2005 10:44:37 pm
sattar2 #103: You are correct. It is everyone`s problem. Every social problem is everyone`s problem, in theory. However, practically speaking, the leadership intiative to solve a problem has to always comes from the affluent group of the community that is being affected. If that does not happen, then nothing ever changes.
For example, the treatment of ethnic minorities in any country is everyone` problem. However, an ethnic minority will only be able to establish itself, if the leadership comes from within itself. The worse thing they can do is to rely on others to solve their problem. Others will have their own interests to protect.
As an example, take the Pakistani community in the USA and in Canada. There is a big difference between the two. The Canadian Pakistani community is very active politically. It has members elected at every level, from municipal to Federal. There are Pakistani running for mayorships is some of the larger cities. There is an active political structure, in its infancy. Pakistanis are regularly on TV talk shows, pushing their agenda. Due to this, Canadian officials, from PM to ministers are regular attendees at Pakistani functions and TV shows.
However, in the USA, the Pakistani community has taken no such initiative. It is rudderless and leaderless. It is relying on the goodwill of the rest of the society for protecting and pushing its interests. As we are slowly finding out, after 9/11 that can be quite unreliable. Other communities will push their agendas, many of which will be counter to the Pakistani community`s issues.
Similary, in Pakistan. until the affluent amongst the women, do not take leadership positions, in large numbers, nothing will change. I think too many of them are relying on the rest of the society, or on men, to take the initiative. That may happen in small numbers, but historically speaking, in any country, it has never been the cause of change, for any particular community.
If you think otherwise, do provide some examples, that counter this claim.....
For example, the treatment of ethnic minorities in any country is everyone` problem. However, an ethnic minority will only be able to establish itself, if the leadership comes from within itself. The worse thing they can do is to rely on others to solve their problem. Others will have their own interests to protect.
As an example, take the Pakistani community in the USA and in Canada. There is a big difference between the two. The Canadian Pakistani community is very active politically. It has members elected at every level, from municipal to Federal. There are Pakistani running for mayorships is some of the larger cities. There is an active political structure, in its infancy. Pakistanis are regularly on TV talk shows, pushing their agenda. Due to this, Canadian officials, from PM to ministers are regular attendees at Pakistani functions and TV shows.
However, in the USA, the Pakistani community has taken no such initiative. It is rudderless and leaderless. It is relying on the goodwill of the rest of the society for protecting and pushing its interests. As we are slowly finding out, after 9/11 that can be quite unreliable. Other communities will push their agendas, many of which will be counter to the Pakistani community`s issues.
Similary, in Pakistan. until the affluent amongst the women, do not take leadership positions, in large numbers, nothing will change. I think too many of them are relying on the rest of the society, or on men, to take the initiative. That may happen in small numbers, but historically speaking, in any country, it has never been the cause of change, for any particular community.
If you think otherwise, do provide some examples, that counter this claim.....
#103 Posted by sattar2 on April 11, 2005 9:58:11 am
Romair (#19),
Harassment of women is not a women’s problem, it is our problem. When women are suppressed, everyone suffers … and whoever takes the initiative towards a just solution, will be a better person for it. First step should be taken by everyone … and not merely by them. It is the collective thought process of a people that makes them excel or fail as a nation.
I noticed it earlier, but did not get around to making this comment. Corina (#87) has correctly highlighted what seems to me the proper way of viewing the issue. Regards.
#102 Posted by kardesh on April 11, 2005 7:51:37 am
#99 catfischeblues aned #101 corina
{``Therefore, according to your argument, lets not talk about sexual harassment in order to reinforce women’s reputation as the silent weaker ‘inferior’ sexA``}
I don`t mean to condone sexual harrassment. I just want to introduce a measure of proportionality here. Let`s get the countries to punish rape crimes, violence, and slavery first. Go for the low-hanging fruit - that`s a pretty ugly way of putting it. I mean let`s eradicate the universally-disgusting crimes of rape, mutilation, slaughter, slavery, and abduction. These are so commonplace in the world and the criminals get away with literally murder. While you are emphasizing harrassment, they are laughing at you saying that they are only raping and not harrassing. Please be rational. You will make more progress that way. Once rape is punished as a crime, sexual harrassment itself will diminish and hopefully disappear.
{``Therefore, according to your argument, lets not talk about sexual harassment in order to reinforce women’s reputation as the silent weaker ‘inferior’ sexA``}
I don`t mean to condone sexual harrassment. I just want to introduce a measure of proportionality here. Let`s get the countries to punish rape crimes, violence, and slavery first. Go for the low-hanging fruit - that`s a pretty ugly way of putting it. I mean let`s eradicate the universally-disgusting crimes of rape, mutilation, slaughter, slavery, and abduction. These are so commonplace in the world and the criminals get away with literally murder. While you are emphasizing harrassment, they are laughing at you saying that they are only raping and not harrassing. Please be rational. You will make more progress that way. Once rape is punished as a crime, sexual harrassment itself will diminish and hopefully disappear.
#101 Posted by Corina on April 11, 2005 6:23:46 am
kardesh - Sexual harassment and rape fall on different parts of the spectrum of the assertion of power over women. The frequency of both of these in Pakistan is based o on the manifestation of laws like the Hudood Ordinance which grant women no legal protection in the event of a sexual crime against them. Are women only to speak out after they have been criminally assaulted? Or are women, based on your comment, from the Third World only to speak out after they have been criminally assaulted? Catfischblues articulates it well:
Therefore, according to your argument, lets not talk about sexual harassment in order to reinforce women’s reputation as the silent weaker ‘inferior’ sex, thereby paving the way for the patriarchal order to continue raping and abusing women? Because sexual harassment is something our daughters and women should grow to uncritically accept as a norm in society??? (!)
catfischblues - am not implying that crimes against women are something that are particular to Pakistani society. Am not trying to project Western society as the ideal society of the emancipated woman. Made the `gora country` comment in response to an interactor`s comment on how `we at least respect our women` to emphasize one point: Pakistan has legalized punishing women for reporting rape unlike any other country in the world. This is shameful and particular to Pakistan and we need to realize that.
mohar11 and Romair - using your logic - the fault of poverty in Pakistan`s class stratified society is that the poor havent stood up (are too lazy, timid?) for their rights. It has nothing to do with political or social or economic factors that perpetuate cycles of oppression? Thus the answer would be then for the poor to demand their rights without the rich realizing and acting upon their role in perpetuating cycles of oppression? Please, lets be more critical than that.
Therefore, according to your argument, lets not talk about sexual harassment in order to reinforce women’s reputation as the silent weaker ‘inferior’ sex, thereby paving the way for the patriarchal order to continue raping and abusing women? Because sexual harassment is something our daughters and women should grow to uncritically accept as a norm in society??? (!)
catfischblues - am not implying that crimes against women are something that are particular to Pakistani society. Am not trying to project Western society as the ideal society of the emancipated woman. Made the `gora country` comment in response to an interactor`s comment on how `we at least respect our women` to emphasize one point: Pakistan has legalized punishing women for reporting rape unlike any other country in the world. This is shameful and particular to Pakistan and we need to realize that.
mohar11 and Romair - using your logic - the fault of poverty in Pakistan`s class stratified society is that the poor havent stood up (are too lazy, timid?) for their rights. It has nothing to do with political or social or economic factors that perpetuate cycles of oppression? Thus the answer would be then for the poor to demand their rights without the rich realizing and acting upon their role in perpetuating cycles of oppression? Please, lets be more critical than that.
#100 Posted by drlokraj on April 11, 2005 2:09:06 am
Rape is much more than sexual gratification.Its intent is violence,which is perpetrated through sexual means and the impact is psychological and social more than physical.It is ``show of strength`` or ``imprinting the authority``on the victim or the family of the victim.In latter case,the female is actually the scapegoat and hence undergoes double trauma.
Lot of cases of rape and other forms of sexual harrassment are not reported for the fear of ``badnaami`` and often the victim is advised to keep shut even by the close relatives.In most cases there is literally no support from the closest relatives.
If reported,there is hardly any chance in countries like India and Pakistan to get justice and the laws are such that they do not help the victim.Even the justice delivery system is such that it ultimately helps the criminal.
Bribery,nepotism etc......go again in favour of criminals
Often the role of press and electronic media in such cases is not positive.
All these factors plus may be more,reinforce the idiom,``jiski laathi,uski bhains``.
This vicious cycle can only be broken by women`s resolve to fight out and an active movement at social level-they have to take the laathi in their hands and dont look for protection from males.
Lot of cases of rape and other forms of sexual harrassment are not reported for the fear of ``badnaami`` and often the victim is advised to keep shut even by the close relatives.In most cases there is literally no support from the closest relatives.
If reported,there is hardly any chance in countries like India and Pakistan to get justice and the laws are such that they do not help the victim.Even the justice delivery system is such that it ultimately helps the criminal.
Bribery,nepotism etc......go again in favour of criminals
Often the role of press and electronic media in such cases is not positive.
All these factors plus may be more,reinforce the idiom,``jiski laathi,uski bhains``.
This vicious cycle can only be broken by women`s resolve to fight out and an active movement at social level-they have to take the laathi in their hands and dont look for protection from males.
#99 Posted by catfischblues on April 10, 2005 5:58:31 pm
kardesh,
``And, little Miss Tuffet here is bothered by sexual harrassment in Karachi?``
Therefore, according to your argument, lets not talk about sexual harassment in order to reinforce women’s reputation as the silent weaker ‘inferior’ sex, thereby paving the way for the patriarchal order to continue raping and abusing women? Because sexual harassment is something our daughters and women should grow to uncritically accept as a norm in society??? (!)
``And, little Miss Tuffet here is bothered by sexual harrassment in Karachi?``
Therefore, according to your argument, lets not talk about sexual harassment in order to reinforce women’s reputation as the silent weaker ‘inferior’ sex, thereby paving the way for the patriarchal order to continue raping and abusing women? Because sexual harassment is something our daughters and women should grow to uncritically accept as a norm in society??? (!)
#98 Posted by kardesh on April 10, 2005 3:19:05 pm
Corina Carrumba,
Holy Tamales, Caramba! Mama mia,
The world is coming to and end. Little girls are raped, slaughtered, mutilated, slaughtered, and burned in Gujarat, India. Women were the primary victims in the tsuanmi disasters, girls are being sold in Indonesia, Afghanistan, and NWFP. A woman is gang-raped by Panchiyat edict in Pakistani Punjab. Female infanticide is rampant in India. Women are losing their feeling of life through female circumcision in Africa. And, little Miss Tuffet here is bothered by sexual harrassment in Karachi?
I feel for you. Vaya con Dios y muches frejoles.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan
Holy Tamales, Caramba! Mama mia,
The world is coming to and end. Little girls are raped, slaughtered, mutilated, slaughtered, and burned in Gujarat, India. Women were the primary victims in the tsuanmi disasters, girls are being sold in Indonesia, Afghanistan, and NWFP. A woman is gang-raped by Panchiyat edict in Pakistani Punjab. Female infanticide is rampant in India. Women are losing their feeling of life through female circumcision in Africa. And, little Miss Tuffet here is bothered by sexual harrassment in Karachi?
I feel for you. Vaya con Dios y muches frejoles.
Salim Ahmed Chauhan
#97 Posted by temporal on April 10, 2005 11:04:01 am
#96:
...self protection is the only way out.
yes
in an army occupied country where it is the only major institution that is thriving...that may be the only recourse available
but then there are inherent dangers in this acceptance...if women and others follow the self-protection way they would also acknowledge:
* there is no effective law and order enforcement
* there is no effective judiciary
* there is no effective legislature ( to protect their interest)
in short, anarchy!
is there any other way out?
...self protection is the only way out.
yes
in an army occupied country where it is the only major institution that is thriving...that may be the only recourse available
but then there are inherent dangers in this acceptance...if women and others follow the self-protection way they would also acknowledge:
* there is no effective law and order enforcement
* there is no effective judiciary
* there is no effective legislature ( to protect their interest)
in short, anarchy!
is there any other way out?
#96 Posted by drlokraj on April 10, 2005 10:33:27 am
Serious sex related crimes are committed by psychopaths.Psychopathy is a mental disoredr and such individuals are found in all the societies-Islamic or non islamic.Moral/ethical values donot have any effect on them,because they never suffer from guilt.It is the duty of the law of the land to provide protection to the potential victims of these disordered people and this cant be expected from a law that in effect only protects the ruling class.So self protection is the only way out.
#95 Posted by mchowdry on April 10, 2005 9:48:01 am
Awesome article. It`s a depressing topic, but I am grateful that you shared your bad experiences for everyone to see.
#94 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 9, 2005 12:55:22 pm
Re: # 89 Urstryly,
here`s a convinient answer to the question:
democracy and justice is not about imposing your world view on others. here`s my proposal.
- don`t send your daughters to marathons if you don`t want to
- please don`t interfere with the business of those who want
how`s that ?
here`s a convinient answer to the question:
democracy and justice is not about imposing your world view on others. here`s my proposal.
- don`t send your daughters to marathons if you don`t want to
- please don`t interfere with the business of those who want
how`s that ?
#93 Posted by echoboom on April 9, 2005 11:18:45 am
David Lamb, the Los Angeles reporter, who wrote the bestselling book The Africans, while living and travelling for four years in Africa echoes this point. He states that one of the best comparisons between a Christian and Muslim country in Africa was the safety of the streets within the larger cities. He felt that he would never let his wife walk alone at night, and sometimes even during the day in most of the larger African Christian cities. Yet, he had no fear of permitting his wife to wander freely within any of the larger African Muslim cities.
``Judy and I, during our 5 years in Senegal, a country of 7 million, of which 92% of the population claimed to be Muslim, don`t recall of ever having to fear for the safety of our women. Not once were they ever ``cat-called,`` and in the entire time there, we remember hearing of only one rape in our town of 350,000 individuals. On this point alone, Islam has proved to far excel Christianity with its care and discipline towards women.``
``Judy and I, during our 5 years in Senegal, a country of 7 million, of which 92% of the population claimed to be Muslim, don`t recall of ever having to fear for the safety of our women. Not once were they ever ``cat-called,`` and in the entire time there, we remember hearing of only one rape in our town of 350,000 individuals. On this point alone, Islam has proved to far excel Christianity with its care and discipline towards women.``
#92 Posted by emthree1 on April 9, 2005 10:59:51 am
Re: # 77
I couldn`t find the link but in one of the UK papers (Guardian I think) there was a very uplifting article last week about a mid-twenties Iranian girl beating her male counterparts in a car race (a ralley, IIRC). She was all smiles on the podium with miserable looking 2nd and 3rd place fisnishers. It was a two page article in the magazine section. She had been driving since age 13. Iran seems to be moving faster than other muslim countries where women`s rights are concerned.
I couldn`t find the link but in one of the UK papers (Guardian I think) there was a very uplifting article last week about a mid-twenties Iranian girl beating her male counterparts in a car race (a ralley, IIRC). She was all smiles on the podium with miserable looking 2nd and 3rd place fisnishers. It was a two page article in the magazine section. She had been driving since age 13. Iran seems to be moving faster than other muslim countries where women`s rights are concerned.
#91 Posted by catfischblues on April 9, 2005 8:46:16 am
1 in 20 women in England and Wales have been raped since they were 16. That is a 167 women are raped everyday. And this is only the tip of the ice-berg, as we don`t know how many more rapes and sexual assaults have not been reported. It is best not to make sweeping generalisations. As I said earlier, that no society is perfect. Unfortunately, the incidence of rape and sexual assault and harassment are present in every society. The gora society, though boasts its commitment to the law, and `respect` to women, it is however, only by law and just the surface. Go to the working class goras, go up to the North of England, or the poorer areas of London, and you`ll see the real treatment of women. Though the western society is more efficient with its law enforcement, it is only the surface.
The eastern, more specifically Pakistani society is very different from the western. Which is why, it is wise not to compare. For a solution to be woven successfully will need our very own thread.
Like the rest of the world the women belonging to the poorer areas are suffering most, and like the rest of the world, the educated middle class women in the cities are enjoying a more privileged and secure position. Most of the younger women belonging to the middle class families, like the rest of the world, are not really complaining about their position as a woman. Most, like I said before, are working and attaining successful positions in their careers.
And whoever said that there hasn’t been an incidance of rape for 18 years in Holland. It is on the rise, and in fact there is a controversial debate that Muslim men are contributing to the rise in rape incidences.
The eastern, more specifically Pakistani society is very different from the western. Which is why, it is wise not to compare. For a solution to be woven successfully will need our very own thread.
Like the rest of the world the women belonging to the poorer areas are suffering most, and like the rest of the world, the educated middle class women in the cities are enjoying a more privileged and secure position. Most of the younger women belonging to the middle class families, like the rest of the world, are not really complaining about their position as a woman. Most, like I said before, are working and attaining successful positions in their careers.
And whoever said that there hasn’t been an incidance of rape for 18 years in Holland. It is on the rise, and in fact there is a controversial debate that Muslim men are contributing to the rise in rape incidences.
#90 Posted by mohar11 on April 9, 2005 7:02:15 am
Re: # 87 Corina
//Members in our society that occupy privileged status are in fact more responsible for speaking out against injustice as they have more leverage//
Corina - Privileged members of your society have brought you where you are today. So don`t expect them to speak out against anything.
//Members in our society that occupy privileged status are in fact more responsible for speaking out against injustice as they have more leverage//
Corina - Privileged members of your society have brought you where you are today. So don`t expect them to speak out against anything.
#89 Posted by Urstruly on April 9, 2005 6:16:00 am
COULD SOMEONE PLEASE ANSWER THE QUSTION AT THE END
#88 Posted by Fizza on April 9, 2005 5:33:48 am
Muslim women have always remained oppressed in our society - courtesy illiteracy rate. Lack of female education is to be blamed more than the domination of male chauvinists.
However, Amina Wudud has simply torn Islamic laws into pieces. Her so-called ‘bold’ step is the lowest level of illiteracy a Muslim female could fall into. Where and how she came up with it, comes as a surprise, but the fact that people are following her doesn’t. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed (wo)man is the king. I’d rather be labeled a sadistic, extremist mullani than go by what she’s preaching.
However, Amina Wudud has simply torn Islamic laws into pieces. Her so-called ‘bold’ step is the lowest level of illiteracy a Muslim female could fall into. Where and how she came up with it, comes as a surprise, but the fact that people are following her doesn’t. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed (wo)man is the king. I’d rather be labeled a sadistic, extremist mullani than go by what she’s preaching.
#87 Posted by Corina on April 9, 2005 2:12:57 am
Thanks for your comments. Had a few responses:
Rumair - I have a problem with your if you dont do something about it I wont either attitude to your wife. Members in our society that occupy privileged status are in fact more responsible for speaking out against injustice as they have more leverage. It needs to be a joint stand not just women standing up for women.
labyrinth - you claim that `at least we have more respect for our women than goras`. I believe people adopt that head in the sand off hand attitude when they dont want to deal with something. No labyrinth in the gora countries a man cant do anything he wants to a woman and get away with it. If we had respect for our women as you claim - a woman wouldnt be raped every two hours and gang raped every eight hours (according to Sajal`s article) - in this country. We wouldnt have so many women languishing in jails and laws like the Hudood Ordinance that has been around now for over 25 years!!!
As for the MQM as a more pro-woman party - where was the MQM when the MMA was blasting the motion to repeal the Hudood Ordinance? Most of the opposition bleated pathetically and then fell silent. Why didnt the MQM protest when the MMA decided it was going to review the national curriculum to seek out anti-Muslim content? And I dont agree with MQM opposition tactics.
Rumair - I have a problem with your if you dont do something about it I wont either attitude to your wife. Members in our society that occupy privileged status are in fact more responsible for speaking out against injustice as they have more leverage. It needs to be a joint stand not just women standing up for women.
labyrinth - you claim that `at least we have more respect for our women than goras`. I believe people adopt that head in the sand off hand attitude when they dont want to deal with something. No labyrinth in the gora countries a man cant do anything he wants to a woman and get away with it. If we had respect for our women as you claim - a woman wouldnt be raped every two hours and gang raped every eight hours (according to Sajal`s article) - in this country. We wouldnt have so many women languishing in jails and laws like the Hudood Ordinance that has been around now for over 25 years!!!
As for the MQM as a more pro-woman party - where was the MQM when the MMA was blasting the motion to repeal the Hudood Ordinance? Most of the opposition bleated pathetically and then fell silent. Why didnt the MQM protest when the MMA decided it was going to review the national curriculum to seek out anti-Muslim content? And I dont agree with MQM opposition tactics.
#86 Posted by ZahraJ on April 8, 2005 8:12:12 pm
Nabs: Thanks for posting a nicely put together and well-reasoned column. I think all those male imams who have issues with Amina Wadud need to be shot dead or buried alive. The writer has pinpointed some sensitive issues. I liked his blunt style.
On the article under discussion: What`s so new about this subject that has not been addressed previously on Chowk? When the said issue has become part and parcel of the the Pakistani Culture then why raise any hue and cry. Just accept it and move on. Why waste your time?
On the article under discussion: What`s so new about this subject that has not been addressed previously on Chowk? When the said issue has become part and parcel of the the Pakistani Culture then why raise any hue and cry. Just accept it and move on. Why waste your time?
#85 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 8, 2005 7:48:10 pm
echo:
trying my best, all i could figure out is that the writer is trying to represent the true nature of pakistani society, which is not too liberal, not too conservative. between the lines, he condemns mullahs too where he condemsn the government of their stupidity. the guys is mostly rightly representing masses being a professional journalist.
but my argument still remains. netherlands is a crime free, free-sex society! i know you don`t want to accept this.
trying my best, all i could figure out is that the writer is trying to represent the true nature of pakistani society, which is not too liberal, not too conservative. between the lines, he condemns mullahs too where he condemsn the government of their stupidity. the guys is mostly rightly representing masses being a professional journalist.
but my argument still remains. netherlands is a crime free, free-sex society! i know you don`t want to accept this.
#84 Posted by echoboom on April 8, 2005 7:37:31 pm
83:malikjahanzeb
Read or Re-Read this.
Bye!
malikjahanzeb:81
You perhaps do not understand a lot of things as yet . I must have a reason to post and translate it. It is for you to figure and me to find out. Kapish?
Read or Re-Read this.
Bye!
malikjahanzeb:81
You perhaps do not understand a lot of things as yet . I must have a reason to post and translate it. It is for you to figure and me to find out. Kapish?
#83 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 8, 2005 7:28:32 pm
#82 echo:
i say so because you and likes don`t tire digging up statistics trying to find out reasons to justify a rather unnecessary tanent of islam i.e. need of perdah.
while i admit that i donot support going down the level of aminals but arn`t islam`s demands too much? we need a break in these times, it`s no longer a desert of hoodlums.
and please try to find out what islam has to say on rape because you are in a great disadvantage on this issue.
i say so because you and likes don`t tire digging up statistics trying to find out reasons to justify a rather unnecessary tanent of islam i.e. need of perdah.
while i admit that i donot support going down the level of aminals but arn`t islam`s demands too much? we need a break in these times, it`s no longer a desert of hoodlums.
and please try to find out what islam has to say on rape because you are in a great disadvantage on this issue.
#82 Posted by echoboom on April 8, 2005 7:12:01 pm
#79 is a very apt & timely column on this very subject.
Here I give a gist of it for the Urdu-impaired.
``One of my friend lives in Amsterdam..He has been there for about 20 years. Obtained citizenship and his wife and children followed. Two of his daughters and a son were born there. The children were brought up there and got all got their schooling there as well.
This friend visits Pakistan every year for a month. His children generally also accompany him. Last month he arrived and I was able to have a long chat. He said that during all those 20 years not a day passed that he did not miss Pakistan. To my question as to why then he does not return , his answer seemed weird.
He said that he has thought about that many a times but then he has two young daughters and he is concerned about their safety in Pakistan.
When I sought some clarification he said that in Holland his daughters walk around free and without a worry about their safety. They travel alone by train even late late night but they feel confident that no harm can ever come to them. In that un-Islamic country there dignity and honour is intact whereas in the Islamic Pakistan even when they have to go in broad daylight they have to seek some family male-member to accompany them. My daughters just cannot comprehend how unsafe they are in this Islamic Pakistan.
When I heard my friend say this I was in shock & thoroughly embarassed , so I sheepishly
tried to tell him that the situation really is not that bad... He abruptly cut me short and said that the last incidence of rape in that country occurred 18 years ago.
[ The friend then gives examples of news items in Pakistani papers which are thick with such incidences. He says that neither the jean-clad ones nor the burqua/veiled ones are
spared. The friend also gives examples of the lifestyle adjustments & career and employment rerouting which had to be done for absence/unavailability of male-protection
He friend said that under such circumstance how can he heed my advice. ]
I had no answer.
Such is the situation in the country and we on the other hand are singing hoarse about enlightenment and moderation. The government is trying to prove this enlightenment & moderation through Marathons and the religious leaders are beating & pushing them back.
One side accuses the other of an opponent of moderation & enlightenment whereas the otherside accuses the first of promoters of lewdness & shamelessness.
Either side is not reflecting upon the real issue.
Can a society where a woman cannot feel safe has any right to be even called an Islami society. Leave aside Islami, can it even be called a Society?
[The columnist identifies how girls & women are harassed around bus-stops, college gates, buses, workplaces, etc etc]
In a society where a Mai MukhtaraaN has to wail and scream for justice and has to knock on the doors of the Prime Minister what can we call such a society.
My friend asked me if I was in favour of the Marathon races and I replied in the affirmative.
When he asked the reason for this, I said that this would release the stifled-atmosphere and then people would be moderate and liberal.
My friend had a hearty laugh and again asked me if I considered the present rulers serious & sincere in their efforts of moderation & enlightenment.
I replied that as far as I knew they were.
Then he said that then why is it that those who are so much in favour of the races why their own daughters not taking part in these races. Those policemen who were using batons, why none of them had their daughters. Why not a single politicians or senior civil servants or feudals , who untiringly talk of moderation, had a daughter as a participant .
I could not answer this question as well!``
malikjahanzeb:81
You perhaps do not understand a lot of things as yet . I must have a reason to post and translate it. It is for you to figure and me to find out. Kapish?
#81 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 8, 2005 6:52:23 pm
#79 echo:
the article you have posted is a slap on your face. you shouldn`t have done that.
so you are admitting that infidels of netherlands have created a successful society out of free sex. i can tell you that canada has done that too.
then what wisdom remains in sexual oppression?
the article you have posted is a slap on your face. you shouldn`t have done that.
so you are admitting that infidels of netherlands have created a successful society out of free sex. i can tell you that canada has done that too.
then what wisdom remains in sexual oppression?
#80 Posted by arjun_m on April 8, 2005 6:31:30 pm
#77 by hamidm2 on April 8, 2005 4:34pm PT
........ my many iranian friends assure me that within seven days of the mullahs departure from the scene,
Iranian women in the US workplace already dress like regular American women...and sometimes even more ayatollah-wouldn`t-approve than Indian women....
........ my many iranian friends assure me that within seven days of the mullahs departure from the scene,
Iranian women in the US workplace already dress like regular American women...and sometimes even more ayatollah-wouldn`t-approve than Indian women....
#78 Posted by nabs on April 8, 2005 5:22:24 pm
This article was first published in iranian.com
Payback Time
A woman leads prayers? What`s left of Moslem
men`s dignity?
By: Siamack Baniameri
March 29, 2005
On Friday March 18, 2005, something interesting
happened. Amina Wadud, a professor of Islamic
studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, led
an Islamic prayer service before a congregation
of 100 Moslem men and women at Synod House at the
Cathedral of St. John the Divine in Manhattan. As
expected, a few hours later, all hell broke
loose.
The imam of a London mosque declared the practice
against Islam. A woman should never lead prayers,
he elaborated, because during the menstrual
cycle, there is always the possibility of an
accident during the service: if a man happens to
glance at the female imam`s behind and spots
blood, then the gates of heaven will forever be
shut to the poor chump.
Thank you, dear imam, for clarifying a few things
for me. First of all, I had no idea women bled
from their behind during the menstrual cycle. I
guess that means I was pulled out of my mother`s
ass. Silly me... I was completely in the dark.
Secondly, as an avid ass-looker, I can assure the
good imam that in all my years of looking at
women`s behinds from all different angles, I`ve
never spotted blood. Maybe I`m not looking hard
enough. Who knows? Maybe the imam is a better
ass-looker than I am! I`ve never claimed to be
good at anything.
And by the way, I didn`t know there`s a shortage
of tampons in London. What`s up with that?
Meanwhile Soad Saleh, who heads the Islamic
department of the women`s college at Al-Azhar
University in Cairo, said women should not lead
prayers because ``the woman`s body, even if
veiled, stirs desires.``
What can I say? Like many of my Middle Eastern
brothers, I have a lifetime subscription to Play
Veil magazine. Miss January was absolutely
gorgeous and even though I couldn`t see anything
behind her veil, in some perverted way, she
stirred my desires.
I can`t explain it. Only we Middle Eastern men
are capable of looking at women who are covered
under lumps of unforgiving black sheets and feel
aroused. Heck, I sometimes look at drapes hanging
from windows and get horny!
According to Ms. Saleh, we Middle Eastern men are
sexually so out of control that there`s a strong
chance we might hump a female imam in the middle
of Friday prayers. Thank you Ms. Saleh! Thank you
very much for your in-sight!
But I think the best line came from the cleric of
a mosque in Saudi Arabia. The honorable sheikh
expressed outrage by mentioning several times,
``how can a woman who touches her husband`s organ
lead a prayer... it is inconceivable!``
Obviously the sheikh is unaware that married
women do not touch their husband`s organ. As a
matter of fact that`s the main reason women get
married ... so they don`t have to touch, fondle
or stroke any part of a man`s body. In fact women
are done with sex the day after they get married.
Obviously the sheikh is enjoying an unusually
active sex-life with his wife.
I feel the anger of my fellow fundamentalist
brothers. We`re not only challenged by an
intellectual who knows her Islam but, even worse,
we`re challenged by a woman. The very fact that a
woman is more intelligent, and makes no apologies
for it, insults our very existence.
This has nothing to do with Islam; it`s about
what we`ve learned from our fathers and
grandfathers. This is about money and power --
the very essence of our manhood. This is not
about menstrual cycles, stirring desires or
fondling organs. It`s about fear and insecurity.
Nothing is more intimidating to a man than a
woman who sees right through him.
Personally, as an Iranian Moslem man, it would be
a privilege and honor to stand behind a female
imam and pray to my God. I promise I`ll never
glance at her behind -- unless, of course, God
has blessed her with one that is too divine to
ignore.
Who knows? Maybe one day women can have several
husbands too. Reversal of fortune is entertaining
-- don`t you think? Maybe we`ll see the day when
women with their Gucci purses and Prada shoes
walk in front and we follow them two steps behind
covered in thick dark sheets, pushing strollers
and gasping for air. Imagine me and the sheikh
and a couple of other fellows being some woman`s
bitches. Oh, the payback!
About
Siamack Baniameri is the author of The Iranican
Dream, (Virtualbookworm.com Publishing, December
2004). Also see Iranican-Dream.com.
Payback Time
A woman leads prayers? What`s left of Moslem
men`s dignity?
By: Siamack Baniameri
March 29, 2005
On Friday March 18, 2005, something interesting
happened. Amina Wadud, a professor of Islamic
studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, led
an Islamic prayer service before a congregation
of 100 Moslem men and women at Synod House at the
Cathedral of St. John the Divine in Manhattan. As
expected, a few hours later, all hell broke
loose.
The imam of a London mosque declared the practice
against Islam. A woman should never lead prayers,
he elaborated, because during the menstrual
cycle, there is always the possibility of an
accident during the service: if a man happens to
glance at the female imam`s behind and spots
blood, then the gates of heaven will forever be
shut to the poor chump.
Thank you, dear imam, for clarifying a few things
for me. First of all, I had no idea women bled
from their behind during the menstrual cycle. I
guess that means I was pulled out of my mother`s
ass. Silly me... I was completely in the dark.
Secondly, as an avid ass-looker, I can assure the
good imam that in all my years of looking at
women`s behinds from all different angles, I`ve
never spotted blood. Maybe I`m not looking hard
enough. Who knows? Maybe the imam is a better
ass-looker than I am! I`ve never claimed to be
good at anything.
And by the way, I didn`t know there`s a shortage
of tampons in London. What`s up with that?
Meanwhile Soad Saleh, who heads the Islamic
department of the women`s college at Al-Azhar
University in Cairo, said women should not lead
prayers because ``the woman`s body, even if
veiled, stirs desires.``
What can I say? Like many of my Middle Eastern
brothers, I have a lifetime subscription to Play
Veil magazine. Miss January was absolutely
gorgeous and even though I couldn`t see anything
behind her veil, in some perverted way, she
stirred my desires.
I can`t explain it. Only we Middle Eastern men
are capable of looking at women who are covered
under lumps of unforgiving black sheets and feel
aroused. Heck, I sometimes look at drapes hanging
from windows and get horny!
According to Ms. Saleh, we Middle Eastern men are
sexually so out of control that there`s a strong
chance we might hump a female imam in the middle
of Friday prayers. Thank you Ms. Saleh! Thank you
very much for your in-sight!
But I think the best line came from the cleric of
a mosque in Saudi Arabia. The honorable sheikh
expressed outrage by mentioning several times,
``how can a woman who touches her husband`s organ
lead a prayer... it is inconceivable!``
Obviously the sheikh is unaware that married
women do not touch their husband`s organ. As a
matter of fact that`s the main reason women get
married ... so they don`t have to touch, fondle
or stroke any part of a man`s body. In fact women
are done with sex the day after they get married.
Obviously the sheikh is enjoying an unusually
active sex-life with his wife.
I feel the anger of my fellow fundamentalist
brothers. We`re not only challenged by an
intellectual who knows her Islam but, even worse,
we`re challenged by a woman. The very fact that a
woman is more intelligent, and makes no apologies
for it, insults our very existence.
This has nothing to do with Islam; it`s about
what we`ve learned from our fathers and
grandfathers. This is about money and power --
the very essence of our manhood. This is not
about menstrual cycles, stirring desires or
fondling organs. It`s about fear and insecurity.
Nothing is more intimidating to a man than a
woman who sees right through him.
Personally, as an Iranian Moslem man, it would be
a privilege and honor to stand behind a female
imam and pray to my God. I promise I`ll never
glance at her behind -- unless, of course, God
has blessed her with one that is too divine to
ignore.
Who knows? Maybe one day women can have several
husbands too. Reversal of fortune is entertaining
-- don`t you think? Maybe we`ll see the day when
women with their Gucci purses and Prada shoes
walk in front and we follow them two steps behind
covered in thick dark sheets, pushing strollers
and gasping for air. Imagine me and the sheikh
and a couple of other fellows being some woman`s
bitches. Oh, the payback!
About
Siamack Baniameri is the author of The Iranican
Dream, (Virtualbookworm.com Publishing, December
2004). Also see Iranican-Dream.com.
#77 Posted by hamidm2 on April 8, 2005 4:34:16 pm
Re: # 71
echo,
........ my many iranian friends assure me that within seven days of the mullahs departure from the scene, iranian women will throw away their robes and chaddors and tehran will rival paris and milan as a center of the fashion industry ......... autocrats and tyrants cannot suppress the human desire for freedom for ever .......... the flame does not die easily
echo,
........ my many iranian friends assure me that within seven days of the mullahs departure from the scene, iranian women will throw away their robes and chaddors and tehran will rival paris and milan as a center of the fashion industry ......... autocrats and tyrants cannot suppress the human desire for freedom for ever .......... the flame does not die easily
#76 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 3:07:20 pm
re: Fizza # 75
Because most people have never met enough Iranis, nor they know the place`s history and culture. To them, it is just another Muslim country.
Speaking of women, perhaps more Persian women living in the U.S. marry outside of their religion than do Muslim women of many other middle eastern nationalities.
These women may be all headed to hell in the unpleasant company us non Muslim men, but that fact of gender conjugation may surprise people who do not know Iran at all.
Because most people have never met enough Iranis, nor they know the place`s history and culture. To them, it is just another Muslim country.
Speaking of women, perhaps more Persian women living in the U.S. marry outside of their religion than do Muslim women of many other middle eastern nationalities.
These women may be all headed to hell in the unpleasant company us non Muslim men, but that fact of gender conjugation may surprise people who do not know Iran at all.
#75 Posted by Fizza on April 8, 2005 1:35:38 pm
I`ve wondered why the world assumes Iran`s an extremist mullah hub. Women are very liberal out there compared to most Muslim countries.
#73 Posted by Ashutosh_Gandhi on April 8, 2005 11:04:51 am
Re: # 56
kalachakra,
At the age of 28 sure I dont need to learn that eve teasing is wrong but at an age of 8 when you are influenced so much by your friends and some of whom are older for sure a talk with parents will go a long way.
kalachakra,
At the age of 28 sure I dont need to learn that eve teasing is wrong but at an age of 8 when you are influenced so much by your friends and some of whom are older for sure a talk with parents will go a long way.
#72 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 10:59:23 am
re: Echoboom # 71
Iran is a fascinating place. It is not all Islam (despite the black robes of its rulers).
Iran and Turkey are the only two (major?) islamic nations where any moral principles and considerations other than Islam have managed to survive in the minds of local intellectuals.
Theirs are two amazing stories of survival which we need to study.
Iran is a fascinating place. It is not all Islam (despite the black robes of its rulers).
Iran and Turkey are the only two (major?) islamic nations where any moral principles and considerations other than Islam have managed to survive in the minds of local intellectuals.
Theirs are two amazing stories of survival which we need to study.
#71 Posted by echoboom on April 8, 2005 10:05:02 am
A glimpse into FUNDAMENTALIST, MULLAH-RULED, SHARIAH-LAW, HUDOOD-ORDINANCE ENFORCED nation
news.bbc.co.uk
THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN!
The Raushan-khayal KanjaRRs from the secular/munaafique/libseral/human should know where the best education & learning is acquired--Madressas! Look at the leaders--fluent & scholars an farsi, arabie, angraizee, franceesee, german, these mullahs are also doctors, lawyers and engineers from Harvard & Sorborne ( piece of Jalaibee--if you got your early education at a Madressa--Like our own Jinnah[Sind Madressa-tul-Islam& Gandhi--Islami Maktab & hindu Paatshaala)
Iran salutes female `Schumacher`
By Natalia Antelava
BBC correspondent in Tehran
Laleh Seddigh behind the wheel
Seddigh has been given the title of Iran`s best female racing driver
Women car racers in Iran have been awarded prizes for the first time in the history of the Islamic republic.
At a racing event for women organised by Iran`s automobile federation, there was one woman who many in Iran believe could outperform me
news.bbc.co.uk
news.bbc.co.uk
THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN!
The Raushan-khayal KanjaRRs from the secular/munaafique/libseral/human should know where the best education & learning is acquired--Madressas! Look at the leaders--fluent & scholars an farsi, arabie, angraizee, franceesee, german, these mullahs are also doctors, lawyers and engineers from Harvard & Sorborne ( piece of Jalaibee--if you got your early education at a Madressa--Like our own Jinnah[Sind Madressa-tul-Islam& Gandhi--Islami Maktab & hindu Paatshaala)
Iran salutes female `Schumacher`
By Natalia Antelava
BBC correspondent in Tehran
Laleh Seddigh behind the wheel
Seddigh has been given the title of Iran`s best female racing driver
Women car racers in Iran have been awarded prizes for the first time in the history of the Islamic republic.
At a racing event for women organised by Iran`s automobile federation, there was one woman who many in Iran believe could outperform me
news.bbc.co.uk
#70 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 9:20:11 am
re: echoboom # 69
``Abdul-hates`` could not be more lucky. :)
They are winning, with (except hamidm2 and a couple of others) none of their so-called ``Muslim-liberal`` foes recognizing how decisively the latter are losing political battles. Nor have these `Muslim liberals` ever figured out a mechanism for defeating the ``abdul-hates.``
With such ``enemies,`` the only better friend of ``abdul-hates`` will be Allah himself. :)
``Abdul-hates`` could not be more lucky. :)
They are winning, with (except hamidm2 and a couple of others) none of their so-called ``Muslim-liberal`` foes recognizing how decisively the latter are losing political battles. Nor have these `Muslim liberals` ever figured out a mechanism for defeating the ``abdul-hates.``
With such ``enemies,`` the only better friend of ``abdul-hates`` will be Allah himself. :)
#69 Posted by echoboom on April 8, 2005 8:42:27 am
Re: # 41: Hamidam2
[``but the abdul-hates are winning :``..]
Of course the abdul-hates(Mullahs) are winning. Alwaya have, Always will. And AbdulAmreekaas (Ba Ba Blacksheep) are losing. Always have. Always will. It is nice to see you see a little light now. Your eyes will open quite blindingly if you refuse to wake up even now.
Tiktikees & lashes are lonely without you & your kind. Moose the goose will soon have the noose around his neck.
& it won`t be a loose one.
and this `encore` is especially for you--to pry open your drunkard eyes.
``tuumharee tehzeeb, upnay khanJar sey aap kee khuud kshee kray gee``--Iqbal
tr:your (western) civilisation, using its own dagger, kill itself
and the good news is:
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
By Ahmed Al-Matboli, IOL Staff
BERLIN, March24 , 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The legislatures in two German states have turned down proposals by the opposition Christian Democratic Party to ban Muslim school teachers from wearing hijab.
e of hijab and that a legislation was needed
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
and another interesting development
FRANCE: THE POPE, ISLAM AND THE FRENCH SECULARITY COMPLEX
[``but the abdul-hates are winning :``..]
Of course the abdul-hates(Mullahs) are winning. Alwaya have, Always will. And AbdulAmreekaas (Ba Ba Blacksheep) are losing. Always have. Always will. It is nice to see you see a little light now. Your eyes will open quite blindingly if you refuse to wake up even now.
Tiktikees & lashes are lonely without you & your kind. Moose the goose will soon have the noose around his neck.
& it won`t be a loose one.
and this `encore` is especially for you--to pry open your drunkard eyes.
``tuumharee tehzeeb, upnay khanJar sey aap kee khuud kshee kray gee``--Iqbal
tr:your (western) civilisation, using its own dagger, kill itself
and the good news is:
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
By Ahmed Al-Matboli, IOL Staff
BERLIN, March24 , 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The legislatures in two German states have turned down proposals by the opposition Christian Democratic Party to ban Muslim school teachers from wearing hijab.
e of hijab and that a legislation was needed
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
and another interesting development
FRANCE: THE POPE, ISLAM AND THE FRENCH SECULARITY COMPLEX
#68 Posted by echoboom on April 8, 2005 8:23:49 am
``tuumharee tehzeeb, upnay khanJar sey aap kee khuud kshee kray gee``--Iqbal
tr:your (western) civilisation, using its own dagger, kill itself
and the good news is:
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
By Ahmed Al-Matboli, IOL Staff
BERLIN, March24 , 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The legislatures in two German states have turned down proposals by the opposition Christian Democratic Party to ban Muslim school teachers from wearing hijab.
e of hijab and that a legislation was needed
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
and another interesting development
FRANCE: THE POPE, ISLAM AND THE FRENCH SECULARITY COMPLEX
tr:your (western) civilisation, using its own dagger, kill itself
and the good news is:
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
By Ahmed Al-Matboli, IOL Staff
BERLIN, March24 , 2005 (IslamOnline.net) – The legislatures in two German states have turned down proposals by the opposition Christian Democratic Party to ban Muslim school teachers from wearing hijab.
e of hijab and that a legislation was needed
Two German States Reject Hijab Ban
and another interesting development
FRANCE: THE POPE, ISLAM AND THE FRENCH SECULARITY COMPLEX
#67 Posted by KKKhurram on April 8, 2005 8:09:04 am
A good article on ``pakarva vivah`` in Bihar. Thought you guys might find it interesting
Shotgun weddings with a sinister difference
(Filed: 27/09/2003)
Increasing dowry demands in India have led to a wave of groom kidnaps, writes Rahul Bedi in New Delhi.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/27/wedd27.xml
It is a big mistake to venture out at night if you are young, male and unmarried in India`s Bihar state.
Subhash Kumar, a bank clerk in Patna, let his guard down and paid the price by being kidnapped.
Four days after being carried off by a gang of thugs, manacled to a bed, starved and severely beaten, Kumar found himself married to a girl he had never seen before.
His tears and offers to pay ransom led to beatings, at least until the nuptials were complete. To his horror, even the household`s women joined in, wielding slippers and brooms whenever he begged to be freed.
During the marriage ceremony a rope was tied around Kumar`s waist in case he disgraced the bride`s family by trying to flee. But by then, the resistance had been beaten out of him.
In those dark hours, all he wanted was for the nightmare to end, even if it meant being married to a complete stranger. The next day a sullen Kumar took his wife home, vowing vengeance against his in-laws.
But, like thousands of similarly married Bihari grooms, he feared the kidnappers` vengeance. Unwilling to face more beatings he resigned himself to marriage. ``After marriage, compliance [of the groom] is guaranteed by the kidnappers for an extra fee,`` said Mithelesh Singh, a political activist from near Patna.
This is marriage season in the eastern Indian state of Bihar, and it is a dangerous time for young men.
Bihari social workers say excessive dowry demands by grooms, particularly among the upwardly mobile Bhumiar agricultural class, has forced the parents of young women to hire men to organise such ``shotgun alliances``.
Bihar is among the most violent of India`s 28 states, where politicians and landlords own private armies and the rule of law barely exists.
Officials in the state capital Patna said scores of bachelors were abducted each year in the state`s Gaya, Darbangha and Purnea districts and, after being beaten senseless, are married according to Hindu rites, in a custom that has gained tacit social approval.
In northern states such as Punjab and Haryana, the marriage market has the opposite problem, a shortage of brides partly driven by parents hoping for male babies aborting female foetuses.
But in parts of Bihar eligible grooms remain on the run, conscious of the dowry they can demand if they remain free to select their bride.
Payment of large dowries - banned by law - is widespread in Bihar, where the bride`s family usually compensate the groom`s parents for the money spent on his education. She is expected to bring with her a wide range of consumer goods and presents and jewellery for her husband and family.
Dowry demands often continue well into the marriage. When the bride refuses or is simply unable to meet them she is brutally treated, at times even forced into an inflammable nylon sari, doused with paraffin and set on fire. Husbands often claim the victims caught fire while cooking.
In the early 1980s such deaths became so commonplace that anti-dowry activists forced the government to change the law. Today, any such death by burning within seven years of marriage is deemed unnatural and the husband and his parents are charged with murder.
More than 12,612 dowry deaths were recorded across India in 1998 and 1999, the largest number in Bihar and neighbouring Uttar Pradesh.
But anti-dowry activists and non-governmental organisations said the true number was much higher and estimate that a woman is burned to death every 10 minutes across India.
Activists in Bihar said the groom kidnapping system was well honed, with parents choosing a victim according to caste and community. A marriage fee is negotiated, depending on the prospective groom`s status, and specialist bachelor kidnapping squads then move in.
Delivery by the ``groom contractors``, known to shadow their victims for days, even snatching them off buses and trains in daylight, is guaranteed within days. Also assured is a compliant, if somewhat bruised, groom.
Middle-class professionals are among the top targets. Government employees are the favourite, followed by doctors, businessmen and company executives.
``Eligible bachelors are so terrorised by these enforced nuptials that many rarely ever venture out alone during the marriage season,`` said Singh. Many even leave the state.
Ultimately, official apathy and Bihar`s social mores, dominated exclusively by caste, leads to the victim and his parents compromising and accepting the bride as part of their family.
But she is rarely looked upon kindly, adding to her woes of being a woman in an inconsiderate, male-dominated society.
Shotgun weddings with a sinister difference
(Filed: 27/09/2003)
Increasing dowry demands in India have led to a wave of groom kidnaps, writes Rahul Bedi in New Delhi.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/09/27/wedd27.xml
It is a big mistake to venture out at night if you are young, male and unmarried in India`s Bihar state.
Subhash Kumar, a bank clerk in Patna, let his guard down and paid the price by being kidnapped.
Four days after being carried off by a gang of thugs, manacled to a bed, starved and severely beaten, Kumar found himself married to a girl he had never seen before.
His tears and offers to pay ransom led to beatings, at least until the nuptials were complete. To his horror, even the household`s women joined in, wielding slippers and brooms whenever he begged to be freed.
During the marriage ceremony a rope was tied around Kumar`s waist in case he disgraced the bride`s family by trying to flee. But by then, the resistance had been beaten out of him.
In those dark hours, all he wanted was for the nightmare to end, even if it meant being married to a complete stranger. The next day a sullen Kumar took his wife home, vowing vengeance against his in-laws.
But, like thousands of similarly married Bihari grooms, he feared the kidnappers` vengeance. Unwilling to face more beatings he resigned himself to marriage. ``After marriage, compliance [of the groom] is guaranteed by the kidnappers for an extra fee,`` said Mithelesh Singh, a political activist from near Patna.
This is marriage season in the eastern Indian state of Bihar, and it is a dangerous time for young men.
Bihari social workers say excessive dowry demands by grooms, particularly among the upwardly mobile Bhumiar agricultural class, has forced the parents of young women to hire men to organise such ``shotgun alliances``.
Bihar is among the most violent of India`s 28 states, where politicians and landlords own private armies and the rule of law barely exists.
Officials in the state capital Patna said scores of bachelors were abducted each year in the state`s Gaya, Darbangha and Purnea districts and, after being beaten senseless, are married according to Hindu rites, in a custom that has gained tacit social approval.
In northern states such as Punjab and Haryana, the marriage market has the opposite problem, a shortage of brides partly driven by parents hoping for male babies aborting female foetuses.
But in parts of Bihar eligible grooms remain on the run, conscious of the dowry they can demand if they remain free to select their bride.
Payment of large dowries - banned by law - is widespread in Bihar, where the bride`s family usually compensate the groom`s parents for the money spent on his education. She is expected to bring with her a wide range of consumer goods and presents and jewellery for her husband and family.
Dowry demands often continue well into the marriage. When the bride refuses or is simply unable to meet them she is brutally treated, at times even forced into an inflammable nylon sari, doused with paraffin and set on fire. Husbands often claim the victims caught fire while cooking.
In the early 1980s such deaths became so commonplace that anti-dowry activists forced the government to change the law. Today, any such death by burning within seven years of marriage is deemed unnatural and the husband and his parents are charged with murder.
More than 12,612 dowry deaths were recorded across India in 1998 and 1999, the largest number in Bihar and neighbouring Uttar Pradesh.
But anti-dowry activists and non-governmental organisations said the true number was much higher and estimate that a woman is burned to death every 10 minutes across India.
Activists in Bihar said the groom kidnapping system was well honed, with parents choosing a victim according to caste and community. A marriage fee is negotiated, depending on the prospective groom`s status, and specialist bachelor kidnapping squads then move in.
Delivery by the ``groom contractors``, known to shadow their victims for days, even snatching them off buses and trains in daylight, is guaranteed within days. Also assured is a compliant, if somewhat bruised, groom.
Middle-class professionals are among the top targets. Government employees are the favourite, followed by doctors, businessmen and company executives.
``Eligible bachelors are so terrorised by these enforced nuptials that many rarely ever venture out alone during the marriage season,`` said Singh. Many even leave the state.
Ultimately, official apathy and Bihar`s social mores, dominated exclusively by caste, leads to the victim and his parents compromising and accepting the bride as part of their family.
But she is rarely looked upon kindly, adding to her woes of being a woman in an inconsiderate, male-dominated society.
#66 Posted by drlokraj on April 8, 2005 7:40:42 am
Few comments:
Eve teasing is only one form of sexual harrassment.It occurs in so many forms and is prevalent more or less in all societies
Rape is much more than sexual harrassment.Its intent is violence,which is perpetrated through sexual means and the impact is psychological and social more than physical.It is ``show of strength`` or ``imprinting the authority``on the victim or the family of the victim.In latter case,the female is actually the scapegoat and hence undergoes double trauma.
Lot of cases of sexual harrassment are not reported for the fear of ``badnaami`` and often the victim is advised to keep shut even by the close relatives.In most cases there is literally no support from the closest relatives.
If reported,there is hardly any chance in countries like India and Pakistan to get justice and the laws are such that they do not help the victim.Even the justice delivery system is such that it ultimately helps the criminal.
Bribery,nepotism etc......go again in favour of criminals
Often the role of press and electronic media in such cases is not positive.
All these factors plus may be more,reinforce the idiom,``jiski laathi,uski bhains``.
This vicious cycle can only be broken by women`s resolve to fight out and an active movement at social level-they have to take the laathi in their hands and dont look for protection from males.
Eve teasing is only one form of sexual harrassment.It occurs in so many forms and is prevalent more or less in all societies
Rape is much more than sexual harrassment.Its intent is violence,which is perpetrated through sexual means and the impact is psychological and social more than physical.It is ``show of strength`` or ``imprinting the authority``on the victim or the family of the victim.In latter case,the female is actually the scapegoat and hence undergoes double trauma.
Lot of cases of sexual harrassment are not reported for the fear of ``badnaami`` and often the victim is advised to keep shut even by the close relatives.In most cases there is literally no support from the closest relatives.
If reported,there is hardly any chance in countries like India and Pakistan to get justice and the laws are such that they do not help the victim.Even the justice delivery system is such that it ultimately helps the criminal.
Bribery,nepotism etc......go again in favour of criminals
Often the role of press and electronic media in such cases is not positive.
All these factors plus may be more,reinforce the idiom,``jiski laathi,uski bhains``.
This vicious cycle can only be broken by women`s resolve to fight out and an active movement at social level-they have to take the laathi in their hands and dont look for protection from males.
#65 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 7:31:58 am
The best of course, is individual action to change structions conditions (catfischblues # 63).
Hats off to you, lady.
That`s the difference between a person genuinely interested in at least trying to solve problems and old fa*ts whose only purpose in life is to chomp on their extinguishing cigars and deceive others with their directionless babble.
Hats off to you, lady.
That`s the difference between a person genuinely interested in at least trying to solve problems and old fa*ts whose only purpose in life is to chomp on their extinguishing cigars and deceive others with their directionless babble.
#64 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 6:45:53 am
Amrita
You, Ashutosh, and catfischblues have emphasized the important role of more direct, individualistic approaches in solving the problem of female harassment.
That is as it should be; all change must begin at the level of individuals.
At the same time, we must acknowledge, understand, and change broader structural conditions of rules, regulations, culture, tradition and religion. These create the key conditions, opportunities, costs and incentives for different behavioral choices.
Anybody who emphasizes one while not understanding or deliberating pushing the other off the agenda for entirely personal reasons is no friend of change.
You, Ashutosh, and catfischblues have emphasized the important role of more direct, individualistic approaches in solving the problem of female harassment.
That is as it should be; all change must begin at the level of individuals.
At the same time, we must acknowledge, understand, and change broader structural conditions of rules, regulations, culture, tradition and religion. These create the key conditions, opportunities, costs and incentives for different behavioral choices.
Anybody who emphasizes one while not understanding or deliberating pushing the other off the agenda for entirely personal reasons is no friend of change.
#63 Posted by catfischblues on April 8, 2005 3:04:36 am
Petition to repeal the Hudood Ordinance:
http://www.petitiononline.com/WFH1/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/WFH1/petition.html
#62 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on April 8, 2005 2:37:19 am
Corina
May be we need some real education - history, philosophy and literature. Subjects that are considered useless.
We are producing truck loads of profession orientated junkies - engineers, technologists, bankers, software wallas etc etc. Or plain simple religious extremetists.
Surprisingly, the illetrates, armed only with common sense & folk lore, are better than the above semi-educated class.
nhk
#61 Posted by harish_hyd on April 8, 2005 1:08:20 am
#60 by amrita
[ps - vagabond78: there`s plenty of female infanticide/foeticide in Andhra Pradesh.]
Nope. Cases of female infanticide were rampant in Tamil Nadu till a few years ago and not Andhra Pradesh. That stopped when Jayalalitha announced a scheme where some money would be deposited in a newborn female child`s name and at the age of 18, she would receive a sum of a lakh rupees or so.
[ps - vagabond78: there`s plenty of female infanticide/foeticide in Andhra Pradesh.]
Nope. Cases of female infanticide were rampant in Tamil Nadu till a few years ago and not Andhra Pradesh. That stopped when Jayalalitha announced a scheme where some money would be deposited in a newborn female child`s name and at the age of 18, she would receive a sum of a lakh rupees or so.
#60 Posted by amrita on April 8, 2005 12:12:22 am
kaal - its not a question of what A_G had to do in his childhood. it`s a question of the power each of us carries in society. he`s absolutely right when he puts the onus on parents. you have a kid living in your house for eighteen years, make those years count. kids can understand the diff between wrong and right, all you need to do is point out early on what is wrong and what is right. most of them are then capable of judging on their own... but you won`t bring up responsible adults by winking at their faults and depending on them to pick up the norms of civilized behavior by osmosis.
i`m an indian woman and i`ve had to deal with plenty of harassment on the streets, in theatres, in shops, in malls, in clubs, in pubs, you name it - and this has happened all over india, urban and rural areas. and what is more, i dont know a single woman who has never had to deal with it.
ps - vagabond78: there`s plenty of female infanticide/foeticide in Andhra Pradesh.
i`m an indian woman and i`ve had to deal with plenty of harassment on the streets, in theatres, in shops, in malls, in clubs, in pubs, you name it - and this has happened all over india, urban and rural areas. and what is more, i dont know a single woman who has never had to deal with it.
ps - vagabond78: there`s plenty of female infanticide/foeticide in Andhra Pradesh.
#59 Posted by vivek on April 7, 2005 11:38:15 pm
kaalchakra #56,
Seems like A_G wants to be politically correct.
Seems like A_G wants to be politically correct.
#58 Posted by sheelajaywant on April 7, 2005 10:57:59 pm
Women who belonged to the privileged socio-economic backgrounds (in India) seldom suffer either at home or the work-place, in the cities these days. In the smaller towns, and I have lived in several much of my adult life, I find that television has given young girls the confidence that previous generations didn`t, to speak their minds. Perhaps it`s misconstrued as being precocious, but in time, the rebels amongst the girls will lead the way to a more open society. We really need good programs on all mass media to change the mindsets of those that aren`t `backward/fundamentalist` but not sure how to proceed with the choices the women of the family want to make. All in all, with more women joining the workforce, things are changing.
#57 Posted by vagabond78 on April 7, 2005 9:03:12 pm
#53 by Ashutosh_Gandhi
Pls dont generalise when it comes to India. Female infanticide,foeticide is a north indian problem; places like punjab, haryana, rajasthan, delhi and gujrat.
In the absence of common culture we`ll rule that out. Let`s look at parental education: You say your friends never received moral lessons from their parents. You didnt tell us about your parents. Well I did. ``Speak truth, Dont steal, Respect elders and teachers (Guru brahma, guru vishnu..), make friends and never hurt others, dont throw food etc etc`` - thats all. They didnt tell me anything about rape, eveteasing.. never. And these lessons stop when child reach adolescence. You cant teach moral science to a 17yr old; I presume if a 10yr old teases a girl you cant call it eveteasing.
You missed role of the school so i`ll include it here. In my school till abt 7th std, girls and boys are made to sit alternatively next to each other. Two boys or two girls cant sit together on a bench. In high school of course you can sit wherever you want with whoever. We didnt have sex education then, now many schools conduct sex education classes.
In India, girls dont play with barbie dolls, they play with boys. You have six yr olds playing kajol-SRK and respective parents correcting their dance steps. I have friends who`ve married their girlfriends from 6th std!!. Such is the kind of healthy intermingling encouraged in India.
I`m south Indian who grew up in north. So I can say with some confidence that women
are given lot more respect in south than in the north.
Pls dont generalise when it comes to India. Female infanticide,foeticide is a north indian problem; places like punjab, haryana, rajasthan, delhi and gujrat.
In the absence of common culture we`ll rule that out. Let`s look at parental education: You say your friends never received moral lessons from their parents. You didnt tell us about your parents. Well I did. ``Speak truth, Dont steal, Respect elders and teachers (Guru brahma, guru vishnu..), make friends and never hurt others, dont throw food etc etc`` - thats all. They didnt tell me anything about rape, eveteasing.. never. And these lessons stop when child reach adolescence. You cant teach moral science to a 17yr old; I presume if a 10yr old teases a girl you cant call it eveteasing.
You missed role of the school so i`ll include it here. In my school till abt 7th std, girls and boys are made to sit alternatively next to each other. Two boys or two girls cant sit together on a bench. In high school of course you can sit wherever you want with whoever. We didnt have sex education then, now many schools conduct sex education classes.
In India, girls dont play with barbie dolls, they play with boys. You have six yr olds playing kajol-SRK and respective parents correcting their dance steps. I have friends who`ve married their girlfriends from 6th std!!. Such is the kind of healthy intermingling encouraged in India.
I`m south Indian who grew up in north. So I can say with some confidence that women
are given lot more respect in south than in the north.
#56 Posted by KaalChakra on April 7, 2005 8:48:53 pm
Ashutosh_Gandhi
You required a talk with your parents to know that harassing women wasn`t a good thing?
Any more of your friends were confused about where it lay on the moral spectrum?
You are from India, right?
You required a talk with your parents to know that harassing women wasn`t a good thing?
Any more of your friends were confused about where it lay on the moral spectrum?
You are from India, right?
#54 Posted by bbabu on April 7, 2005 7:21:42 pm
sorry about the author`s experiences
Urban life by nature is impersonal. It offers folks anonymity which encourages people to indulge in things that might not normally do.
#53 Posted by Ashutosh_Gandhi on April 7, 2005 6:38:23 pm
Harasment of women is equally a problem in both india and pakistan. I will not agree with anyone saying that women are less harassed in India than Pakistan. In india the biggest crime committed against women even before she is born. Female infanticide should also be covered under women harasment. Reasons like culture, religion are blamed for female harassment. I would also blame this problem on parents. How many of you have been told by their parents that eve teasing is wrong? The morals come from religion but also parents are important player when kids learn about morality, right or wrong. Without proper education from parents boys go into the habit of eve teasing. This slowly becomes physical teasing and could lead to rapes, murders, throwing acid, etc.
Dont just blame culture or religion. Parents play a huge part in childs development and I dont know any of my friend who had coversation with their parents about wrong or right in terms of morality. They learn from other when they see or hear about those acts. Take responsibility and teach your kids about morality. In many family father is hurting mother either physically or emotionally. The child at home learns that its allright to harm a female.
Dont just blame culture or religion. Parents play a huge part in childs development and I dont know any of my friend who had coversation with their parents about wrong or right in terms of morality. They learn from other when they see or hear about those acts. Take responsibility and teach your kids about morality. In many family father is hurting mother either physically or emotionally. The child at home learns that its allright to harm a female.
#51 Posted by amit on April 7, 2005 5:04:47 pm
Re:catfischblues
The real reason for this problem is the large-scale segregation of sexes in conservative countries. People develop warped notions about the other sex. They never get the chance to interact with the opposite sex and observe that they are also human beings made of flesh and blood. Instead they have absurd ideas of what the opposite sex wants.
Have you ever seen kids who attend same sex schools like all boys schools or all girls schools? They display weird, desperate behavior towards the opposite sex. Compare that with kids who attend co-educational schools and have grown up interacting with the opposite sex. They develop a much more relaxed and comfortable attitude towards the opposite sex. The same phenomenon gets maginified at the societal level, if the sexes are segregated.
Conservative countries are so obsessed with sexual purity that they do not realize the unnatural impact this causes on people. Since Pakistan is more conservative than India, you do not see the extreme behavior that you are describing in India. Still in places like Punjab and Delhi, there is a lot of eve teasing.
The real reason for this problem is the large-scale segregation of sexes in conservative countries. People develop warped notions about the other sex. They never get the chance to interact with the opposite sex and observe that they are also human beings made of flesh and blood. Instead they have absurd ideas of what the opposite sex wants.
Have you ever seen kids who attend same sex schools like all boys schools or all girls schools? They display weird, desperate behavior towards the opposite sex. Compare that with kids who attend co-educational schools and have grown up interacting with the opposite sex. They develop a much more relaxed and comfortable attitude towards the opposite sex. The same phenomenon gets maginified at the societal level, if the sexes are segregated.
Conservative countries are so obsessed with sexual purity that they do not realize the unnatural impact this causes on people. Since Pakistan is more conservative than India, you do not see the extreme behavior that you are describing in India. Still in places like Punjab and Delhi, there is a lot of eve teasing.
#50 Posted by jay on April 7, 2005 4:53:46 pm
Pak mindset
Every time an educated pakistani like romair and temporal state that hoodood is due to zia they are in support of the hoodood. They refuse to accept that zia died more than 25 years ago, all of the later rulers including the present much respected highly educated mushy refused to change it. He is a person who changed the pak constituion whole sale, but will not touch hoodood, because like romair and the temporals he also beleives that he can do nothing, it is all due to zia.
As long as the spineless educated of pakistan identify the root cause of hoodood, there will be no change. More marathons will be banned. What the pakistanis have to accept is that the social values are evolving on a path set by TNT, a doctrine of hatred. As long as that is not changed the trend will continue. The fundamental premise of TNT is that it is all due to the others, initially it was due to hindus, then ue to ahmadis, then due to americans supporting jihad, then due to zia. The premis of TNt is that muslims cannot live with others of any value system other than that is in the book.
TNT systemetised and gave political dimension to intolerance. remove that picture from the walls.
Every time an educated pakistani like romair and temporal state that hoodood is due to zia they are in support of the hoodood. They refuse to accept that zia died more than 25 years ago, all of the later rulers including the present much respected highly educated mushy refused to change it. He is a person who changed the pak constituion whole sale, but will not touch hoodood, because like romair and the temporals he also beleives that he can do nothing, it is all due to zia.
As long as the spineless educated of pakistan identify the root cause of hoodood, there will be no change. More marathons will be banned. What the pakistanis have to accept is that the social values are evolving on a path set by TNT, a doctrine of hatred. As long as that is not changed the trend will continue. The fundamental premise of TNT is that it is all due to the others, initially it was due to hindus, then ue to ahmadis, then due to americans supporting jihad, then due to zia. The premis of TNt is that muslims cannot live with others of any value system other than that is in the book.
TNT systemetised and gave political dimension to intolerance. remove that picture from the walls.
#49 Posted by kaurasach on April 7, 2005 3:58:00 pm
If the state wants, such behavior can cease overnight.....When Kanjaras and Randees rule the roost, what do you expect?
There have been several instances where bystanders tried to stop harrassment. These hijras had connections with the kanjars...and the good samaritans were punished for the deed....What kind of message does this send?
There have been several instances where bystanders tried to stop harrassment. These hijras had connections with the kanjars...and the good samaritans were punished for the deed....What kind of message does this send?
#48 Posted by catfischblues on April 7, 2005 3:41:10 pm
“If rape is inevitable then why not relax and enjoy”
You can never put the word ‘relax’, ‘enjoy’ and ‘rape’ in one sentence. How dare you say something like that. I don’t understand why your post wasn’t filtered out. How can you expect a woman to relax and enjoy herself when a man is beating her and penetrating her violently without her consent, and forcefully ensuring that she is being punished. The trauma of rape lasts a lifetime. And gang rape is far worse, no woman is going to derive and sexual or personal pleasure out of being raped!
“In 55 years we have created a society in Pakistan that is based only on one priciple: Exploit and oppress the helpless the one below you.”
And what do you think the western socities in their centuries of existence have created socities any better? Do you not think that there are daily conflict between the powerful and the weak in these societies? The conflict you speak of today is purely a western phenomenon. The western man faces the same oppression but in a different context. Yet both societies as you say have figures of rape and gang rape in ‘astronomical’ figures.
Every society is based on exploitation; if there was non then we would have been living in a perfect society. So don’t give us women the bullshit that men rape women because of the daily economic struggles. Because that is not the reason, now is it. It is about male exertion of power over the female. It is a form of female punishment directed towards the suffering for the woman only.
You can never put the word ‘relax’, ‘enjoy’ and ‘rape’ in one sentence. How dare you say something like that. I don’t understand why your post wasn’t filtered out. How can you expect a woman to relax and enjoy herself when a man is beating her and penetrating her violently without her consent, and forcefully ensuring that she is being punished. The trauma of rape lasts a lifetime. And gang rape is far worse, no woman is going to derive and sexual or personal pleasure out of being raped!
“In 55 years we have created a society in Pakistan that is based only on one priciple: Exploit and oppress the helpless the one below you.”
And what do you think the western socities in their centuries of existence have created socities any better? Do you not think that there are daily conflict between the powerful and the weak in these societies? The conflict you speak of today is purely a western phenomenon. The western man faces the same oppression but in a different context. Yet both societies as you say have figures of rape and gang rape in ‘astronomical’ figures.
Every society is based on exploitation; if there was non then we would have been living in a perfect society. So don’t give us women the bullshit that men rape women because of the daily economic struggles. Because that is not the reason, now is it. It is about male exertion of power over the female. It is a form of female punishment directed towards the suffering for the woman only.
#47 Posted by kardesh on April 7, 2005 3:15:08 pm
No woman (or man) should be forced to have any kind of contact with her (his) consent. First of all we have to recognize individual rights. Only then can we see the sanctity of a person`s space. In the west, touching or coming too close to a person is an intrusion, unless that person invites or permits the ``intruder.`` to cross that invisible barrier.
In the east, especially Indo-Pak, I have noticed that there is not much emphasis on individual rights, especially in Islamic societies. People take all kinds of unwanted liberties with each other, as long as the sexes are separated. Grabbing hands, taking one by the arm, bumping strangers without a word of apology are all too common. Parents and friends easily intrude into children`s bedrooms without knocking.
This kind of behavior makes it easier to harrass females by gazing, staring, touching, groping or worse. When there is no respect for an individual`s rights then there is only fear of retribution. So, by repressing sexual expression and release, we are encouraging young males to have a motive for ``wasting their time`` in staring at women. Then by not emphasizing individual rights, we are telling them that it`s permitted to infringe upon the females` space as long as they are not accompanied by a male.
You get the society that you plan for. :)
In the east, especially Indo-Pak, I have noticed that there is not much emphasis on individual rights, especially in Islamic societies. People take all kinds of unwanted liberties with each other, as long as the sexes are separated. Grabbing hands, taking one by the arm, bumping strangers without a word of apology are all too common. Parents and friends easily intrude into children`s bedrooms without knocking.
This kind of behavior makes it easier to harrass females by gazing, staring, touching, groping or worse. When there is no respect for an individual`s rights then there is only fear of retribution. So, by repressing sexual expression and release, we are encouraging young males to have a motive for ``wasting their time`` in staring at women. Then by not emphasizing individual rights, we are telling them that it`s permitted to infringe upon the females` space as long as they are not accompanied by a male.
You get the society that you plan for. :)
#46 Posted by Romair on April 7, 2005 3:15:02 pm
paindupastry #28: ``i agree with romairs post. #19 women have the power, they just have to find it.``
There is a simple first step in this. And in any other endeveour, which involves freedom from any kind of oppression. And that is to become the boss.
Women need to rise up in the corporate world, political world etc. and gain positions of leadership, where they are the decision makers, in Pakistan. And that can only be done by the women who are empowered already, i.e the Chowk Crowd type women.
There are some women in Pakistan who have done this. Not enough though. But if they can do it, then others can do it also, if they put in the same amount of effort. Ever hear of someone named Musharraf - a very powerful individual in Pakistan. No not Pervez Musharraf. But Musharraf Hai. She was voted one of the 400 most powerful businesswomen in the world by Forbes (or Fortune). She is the head of one of the largest, if not the largest, multinational company in Pakistan.......................
Complaining is ok, but it never solves the problem...............
There is a simple first step in this. And in any other endeveour, which involves freedom from any kind of oppression. And that is to become the boss.
Women need to rise up in the corporate world, political world etc. and gain positions of leadership, where they are the decision makers, in Pakistan. And that can only be done by the women who are empowered already, i.e the Chowk Crowd type women.
There are some women in Pakistan who have done this. Not enough though. But if they can do it, then others can do it also, if they put in the same amount of effort. Ever hear of someone named Musharraf - a very powerful individual in Pakistan. No not Pervez Musharraf. But Musharraf Hai. She was voted one of the 400 most powerful businesswomen in the world by Forbes (or Fortune). She is the head of one of the largest, if not the largest, multinational company in Pakistan.......................
Complaining is ok, but it never solves the problem...............
#45 Posted by sajal on April 7, 2005 2:33:02 pm
reply to#43
Urstruly,
``If rape is inevitable then why not relax and enjoy.`` you must be kidding right?
please tell that to every woman you know.
Rape is not about sex janaab it is about showing who has power and there are lot more avenues to enjoy sex than rape.
``No one can match the revenge of a wronged woman``. yes you are right, please tell that to the thousands of women in Pakistani jails...and now I know why they are not being released because you men fear their revenge!! how funny!!
``Ask yourself this question everyday while looking into the mirror ``What did you do to change the society today?`` You might be spared, from what is about to engulf us all.``
If you acknowledge there is a problem and think about solutions you already are doing something. Acknowledgement , undertanding and empathy lead to changed behavior and that in turn leads to change in actions and events.
Urstruly,
``If rape is inevitable then why not relax and enjoy.`` you must be kidding right?
please tell that to every woman you know.
Rape is not about sex janaab it is about showing who has power and there are lot more avenues to enjoy sex than rape.
``No one can match the revenge of a wronged woman``. yes you are right, please tell that to the thousands of women in Pakistani jails...and now I know why they are not being released because you men fear their revenge!! how funny!!
``Ask yourself this question everyday while looking into the mirror ``What did you do to change the society today?`` You might be spared, from what is about to engulf us all.``
If you acknowledge there is a problem and think about solutions you already are doing something. Acknowledgement , undertanding and empathy lead to changed behavior and that in turn leads to change in actions and events.
#44 Posted by temporal on April 7, 2005 2:28:39 pm
urstruly:
after the bengali story you say...So a common man when gets back home after losing his dignity at his place of work...
and then build it up for a thinly disguised justification for rapes
i disagree completley and utterly with your reasoning...and for that reason the query in the end sounds like crocodile`s tears..
sadly
t
after the bengali story you say...So a common man when gets back home after losing his dignity at his place of work...
and then build it up for a thinly disguised justification for rapes
i disagree completley and utterly with your reasoning...and for that reason the query in the end sounds like crocodile`s tears..
sadly
t
#43 Posted by Urstruly on April 7, 2005 2:13:59 pm
It was sometime in late 80s when the civil war in Karachi and other cities in Sindh was at its peak - Punjabis and Pathans were killing mohajirs; mohajirs were killing sindhis; and sindhis were killing just about everyone and Baluchis, police and gun runners were supplying weapons to anyone who could pay. It was the second day of shoot-at-sight curfew in Karachi. After about 36 hours of curfew the miltary announced over the speakers that there was a break in curfew for 3 hours and anyone who wanted to buy supplies could do it with in those hours and after that there would be another curfew for indefinite period of time. After this announcement people just rushed to buy food and other supplies.
Close to the house, where I used to live along with couple of other students, at the street corner, there was a wooden kiosk where a Bengali used to sell paan, cigarettes, tea, matches and such other stuff. His kiosk was hardly 3x3 ft in size and along with his merchandize it`d become so tiny that the skinny bengali could hardly fit in. He usually stood outside to sell his stuff. The guy was a poor immigrant who paid human smugglers to get him and his family all the way across India to this ``promised land`` to make his living. He was father of 8 or 9 kids of all shape and sizes, some of them usually accompanied him.
So as the break in the curfew was announced he rushed to his kiosk and opened it for business. I was standing at the street corner observing him. He was definitely not having a good day because everybody was rushing towards bigger shops so that they could buy and hoard as much as possible. Kids of the neighborhood also came out and started playing. One of them shot a fire-cracker nearby which sounded almost like a fire from Klashnikov. That sound had a magical effect on the people on the street; some of them froze with terror where they were; some ducked; and some just stopped and craned their necks to see what was going on with their frighetend eyes. That spell broke when a kid chuckeled and screemed ``Firing shuroo ho gai, Firing shuroo ho gai``. Almost everyone smiled ashamedly but this bengali just shot out of his kiosk and started beating this kid mercilessly. He himself was crying and screaming ```why the hell did you say that you son of a bitch, why....`` the kid was screaming with fright too but it was the bengali whose tears were trickling down his eyes. Some people from the neighborhood jumped in and saved that kid. Upon asking, the bengali bawled and said that it has been two days that his kids had eaten anything, and he couldn`t control himself when he heard that little twerp screaming that firing had started again.
That little incident was a great eye-opener for me. The lesson learned thru that incident could not be learned from any book written on sociology, psychology, or individual and group behavior.
In 55 years we have created a society in Pakistan that is based only on one priciple: Exploit and oppress the helpless the one below you. So a common man when gets back home after losing his dignity at his place of work; at the checkpoints at the hand of police; at the bank while paying the bills; at the grocery store where vegetable vendor would not let him pick and choose while asking for full price; at the hospital; he does not feel so charitable towards his dependents, his children, wife or others. The young man who cannot find job; the man who doesn`t have anything to attract a woman when sees that those above him are having all the fun then takes his frustrations upon the one weaker than him. And it is not necessary that this frustrated individual belongs to the very down trodden he can belong to any rung of the society but he wants his revenge, his frustration taken out to one below him. In the bigger scheme of things woman is more dependent, weaker, and vulnerable. Gang raping her is the revenge of the rapist from those who raped him first. Harassing her makes on feel powerful; disgracing her makes on more exhalted. It all goes upto the very top. At the very top, currently in Pakistan, there is a group of 4000 to 5000 very evil people who are causing this effect. They are sitting on all the resources; they are corrupt; they are mean; and they are above the law. They constitute our ruling class. Since they are corrupt themselves it has become their second nature to corrupt everyone in their field of gravity; since they lack self-respect they have to deny self respect to one below him so that no one could point their fingers at them. I don`t think that any marathon races, any number of woman seats in the parliament; and any number of women related measures will ease the misery of women. Today if women are being gang raped (astronomical figures that almost correspond with Western societies now), being thrown acid at, being confined to their houses for fear of harassment and assault; tomorrow they will be selling themselves to avenge all the wrongs done to them. If rape is inevitable then why not relax and enjoy. No one can match the revenge of a wronged woman.
Ask yourself this question everyday while looking into the mirror ``What did you do to change the society today?`` You might be spared, from what is about to engulf us all.
#42 Posted by KaalChakra on April 7, 2005 1:40:50 pm
paindu
For all behaviors, every culture creates its own context of faciliatating and restraining forces. Islam is not unique in doing so. In other cultures the mix of factors may be just different, but it is never absent.
For all behaviors, every culture creates its own context of faciliatating and restraining forces. Islam is not unique in doing so. In other cultures the mix of factors may be just different, but it is never absent.
#41 Posted by hamidm2 on April 7, 2005 1:28:22 pm
but the abdul-hates are winning :
``Retreating before the extremists
After the April 3 attack by religious extremists on a mini-marathon in Gujranwala, for women being permitted to participate in it, other districts in the Punjab have either shelved or cancelled similar races or excluded the women from them. The Bahawalpur district administration has postponed the mini-marathon for an indefinite period, while the Multan district administration has postponed it from April 8 to April 10. It has also decided that if the race takes place on the new date, women would not be allowed to participate. Sargodha has asked women not to take part in the ‘marathon’ scheduled in the city on April 8. ``
........... first it was the hadood laws, then honor killings, then the passport fiasco and now marathons ........... at this rate women, ahmedis and pigs will soon be banished from the streets of pakistan ............
``Retreating before the extremists
After the April 3 attack by religious extremists on a mini-marathon in Gujranwala, for women being permitted to participate in it, other districts in the Punjab have either shelved or cancelled similar races or excluded the women from them. The Bahawalpur district administration has postponed the mini-marathon for an indefinite period, while the Multan district administration has postponed it from April 8 to April 10. It has also decided that if the race takes place on the new date, women would not be allowed to participate. Sargodha has asked women not to take part in the ‘marathon’ scheduled in the city on April 8. ``
........... first it was the hadood laws, then honor killings, then the passport fiasco and now marathons ........... at this rate women, ahmedis and pigs will soon be banished from the streets of pakistan ............
#40 Posted by paindupastry on April 7, 2005 12:25:43 pm
Re: # 39
despite ur attempts vivek. i see this thread turning into a maligning islam thread and then some muslims getting angry and saying shyt about hinduism.....every interaction gets worse and worse. avoid interactring after the top 30-50. theres no constructive discussion after that. i think this one has reached that stage or is about to
despite ur attempts vivek. i see this thread turning into a maligning islam thread and then some muslims getting angry and saying shyt about hinduism.....every interaction gets worse and worse. avoid interactring after the top 30-50. theres no constructive discussion after that. i think this one has reached that stage or is about to
#39 Posted by vivek on April 7, 2005 11:56:02 am
satyamvada,
I never said that India, Pakistan and USA are in the same boat. I am not one of those neo-liberals that we see in India, who think India and Pakistan have everything in common and should live happily ever after. But what I was trying to say is that freedom for a woman to do what she likes is not yet deeply entrenched in our country.
kaalchakra,
One cannot seperate religion from personal behavior, after all religion influences our behavior.
I never said that India, Pakistan and USA are in the same boat. I am not one of those neo-liberals that we see in India, who think India and Pakistan have everything in common and should live happily ever after. But what I was trying to say is that freedom for a woman to do what she likes is not yet deeply entrenched in our country.
kaalchakra,
One cannot seperate religion from personal behavior, after all religion influences our behavior.
#38 Posted by KaalChakra on April 7, 2005 11:34:46 am
re: vivek # 36
Religious beliefs do not create ``eve-teasers.`` They merely alter the real context within which the ``eve`` and the ``teaser`` meet.
Religious beliefs do not create ``eve-teasers.`` They merely alter the real context within which the ``eve`` and the ``teaser`` meet.
#37 Posted by satyamvada on April 7, 2005 11:22:46 am
Vivek,
tch tch tch.....
``eve teasing`` is in India, it is in the US as well, violence exists too, but how does
society evaluate it ? So Pakiland, India and US are all in the same boat ?
In pakiland, a woman`s word does not have the same effect of evidence as that
of a man`s word. So what does that mean ? It is a clear signal to a man to be
more aggressive towards women and exercise his superiority.
Laws are a product of values and in turn Laws influence behvior and attitude.
Laws of a land are what helps to creates the social environment and reflects the
institutional character of a country.
#36 Posted by vivek on April 7, 2005 10:53:28 am
satyamvada,
Pal, in India there are people who indulge in eve-teasing and some of them are not muslims. I am not defending Islamic law and I think it interferes too much into personal life, but it also has to do
Pal, in India there are people who indulge in eve-teasing and some of them are not muslims. I am not defending Islamic law and I think it interferes too much into personal life, but it also has to do