The Barbarians Within The Gates!

Re: # 233

No haroon elahi... Your statement doesn`t suggest what you are suggesting now... but I accept your correction.

I`ll make clearer what my argument has been so far... the division between those religious divines who supported Pakistan Movement and those who opposed it was largely sectarian ...

Consider: The sects that supported the Pakistan movement

1) Barelvi Sunnis: Moderate Low Church of Islam

2) Agha Khanis

3) Shiites

4) Ahmadis


.... The sects that opposed the Pakistan movement

1) Deobandis

2) Wahabis

The two latter ones were coopted by the Congress party for their own agenda...

Is there a sect of Hinduism, which does not believe in idol-worship?

On a more curious note, when was the last time any of wrote to your officials? As in, one can easily write to the Chief Minister of Punjab, Commerce Minister, Tourism Ministry, and all the other federal organs.

And if you haven`t been doing it, why not start one now? I`m sure the `unenlightened feudals` in power would love to hear the views of our fellow Pakistani citizens.

hehehehehe

Mr. Feroz, Mantolives, Tahmeed, I requested you guys to provide what a definition of a Muslim is. The latter started ranting and raving about who gets to go to heaven and who does not, but I never even asked him any thing regarding heaven.

Is it the Mullahocracy of Pakistan which you dislike with a such a passion or do you hate the entire concept of religion being a central part of the Pakistani Nation?

I can clearly understand your grienvances towards the retrogressive Mullah establishment, since I have similar views on them, however, condeming Islam because of the actions of certain shlubs is certainly NOT progressive.

And Mantolives, you always talk about how the `Islamic parties disliked the idea of creation of Pakistan and opposed it`. That has always been one of your main lines of arguement in such debates.

This is what I said, `the notion that religious parties of British India opposed the creation of Pakistan is not absolutely correct. It is true that some Muslim religious leaders of their parties did oppose the partitioning of the British India, but there were some who also favored the creation of Pakistan.`

My statement clearly suggests that even though many of the Muslim parties were agaisnt partition, some leading religious leaders and parties were for it. Note `not absolutely correct`. :)


So tell me, will all of you be content if the Feudal Mentality is earsed from the hearts and minds of all those who are engulfed by it?

Or the fact that one class has much more land than other classes pains you?

yourstruly, echoboom, malik99, ballukhan, tahmed32, hamidm, sattar,

ni arhiyo neeeee,
naa lariyo neeeee,

lar piyaan jaaayy,
koi phariyo neeee,

. . . .

Feroz

It is a well understood strategy of the Islamists to deflate the direction of the attacks against mullahism by throwing the theological debates in the air so that every person gets worked up on seeing their core religious beliefs getting attacked and debated!!! This situation then gets ripe for the mullahs to intervene and watch the fun as the arbitrators of these theological disputes.
I think we have all seen this game being played so often that I get amazed to find the so called `educated` elites fall into the same trap again and again. What amazes me is that they fail to realize that they are actually helping the mullahs` cause by accepting even the `validity` of these theological debates in the political and temporal realm as to Who is a Muslim or What is the `correct` or `pure` interpretation of the Suras?
It is time these theological debates are given the burial they deserve on this board.........

Re: # 225 Romair,

In the very long run`s sense, I would say your line of thinking is true. But in the shorter one, there is a great risk of great sufferings and catastrophic danger. I present before you the examples of Iran and Afghanistan. It is the fluctuations which matter in the short run. After 500 years, I already know what will be the plight of most religions.

In this particular sense, I find it very hard to disagree with amit that great disasters are very likely to take place. While Afghanistan and Iran might hope to go back to their norm in fifty years or so but the damage already done is not something normal. Pakistan itself has seen an apparently irreversible subversion in the last couple of decades. While you tend to give importance to the macro level political factors, I think the micro ones, i.e. changes in the thinking of normal man and the factors affecting this mind are of more importance, as the macro factors are the probablistic projections of the micro ones. And the micro ones have sure changed because of things such as legislations against ahmadis, indoctrination of intolerant taboos like leagal prohibition of liquor, wahabization of more and more mullahs, rise of a coherant islam (unfortunately wahabism), organized propaganda against hindu and disconnecting the youth from their deeper historic roots etc.

Aah ko chahiye ik umr, asar hone tak,
Kon jeeta hay teri zulf ke sur hone tak,

Please comment on it more with your knowledgable thoughts on this.

mj

Re:Romair#225

You may be right about the pulse of Pakistan, but the real issue is how to develop institutional safeguards against religious extremism. In any society there are elements that have extreme urges, whether it is the VHP in India, the MMA in Pakistan or the Christian Coalition in USA. The issue is whether these elements can ever gain absolute power. In India or the US, the chances of that are next to zero because of the significant checks and balances in the country due to the legislative process, judiciary, media etc.

In Pakistan, the chances of such a event are quite real. Just because it has not happened does not mean that it cannot happen. There can be a counter-coup tomorrow and Musharraf could be deposed by a fundo general like Hamid Gul or Javed Nasir, who could take Pakistan on the path of Talibanisation. The temptation of using religion to get absolute power is very real. Even elected leaders like Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif have tried to use religion to get absolute power.

The only way to resolve this is to put in iron-clad institutional level checks and balances. There should be a proper constitution that could reflect the religious aspirations of the Pakistani people. All political parties should swear allegiance to such a constitution. If the civilian government tries to exploit religion further, the military should step in and dismiss the government. Within the military, there should be an independent governance body on the powers of the Army chief. If the Army chief crosses certain boundaries like overturn the constitution, the governance body would step in and dismiss the army chief. The governance body should in turn be monitored by the civilian government and so on. By having multiple centers of power that check-mate each other, there is a chance of following the agreed upon constitution and having a rule of law. The extent of religion in the constitution is upto the people but at least there should be some framework beyond the current ad hoc setup that is quite fragile.

kaalchakra #214 It is certainly heartening to see India and Pakistan attempting to change the tone of their political relations relative to what it has been the past 50 years. While there will no doubt be steps backward in future, the general direction is clear - it has to be that of peace and progress. The current peace moves are despite the military government in Pakistan, in my view, and not because of it.

As for bad things people say about one another on chowk, as shakespeare said ``sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me``. :-) While I dont mind taking a few personal shots based on what someone has written - the fact is that we see only a limited aspect of anyone on chowk, and so one can assume that even the most pathetic poster may be a fine individual in real life. Anyway, glad to have people like you on chowk who make it a pleasure to be here and set the standard in civilized behavior.

re: Urstruly

Urstruly, do you wish a response from me on the clarifications you had raised about the role/power/influence of the mullahs?

I believe that I have answered your concerns, indirectly, in the response to Malik99. However, if you still wish for a response, please let me know.

Ciao

Pak reality,

It was only a three years ago the romairs of pakistan used to say that the religious parties have no support, they have polled less than 3 percent in elections. Now they have polled more than 30 percent and it is lauded as victory of democracy. What pakistanis need to accept is the talibanisation of pakistan, the latest is the banning of marathon by women. It is a slow talibanisation, and what india has to worry about is the kargill-Khan effect. Apparently with no consent from the then PM, and per Mushy no approval from the military the kargill invasion took place. Kha with no knowledge of the military or the govt trasferred nuclear technology, and per latest reports met with alquida. The question is when will this two elements of pakistan converge to launch missiles.

The only option for pakistan that the world should provide is the libiyan option. Till then pak should be slowly and steadily economically strangled till the libiyan option is taken,

SR#various: I think Pakistanis tend to be far too cynical and pessimistic. I used to have debates with people, when they said that Pakistan was goiing to be Talibinized and the Afghan Taliban would take over. I always said that would not happen. And it didn`t......

My logic was simple: Every country has a pulse. A mean and median towards which most of its population gravitates. It is very very difficult to change that pulse. Pakistan is quite a bit different from the Taliban. External events and political parties tried to take Pakistan towards that direction. The last nail in that coffin would have been Nawaz Sharif`s Shariah Bill.

However, before that the system corrected itself. A coup occured, the Shariah Bill was dumped. Then support for Taliban was dumped. And then the society was de-militarized from the relgious side. During all this time, no one in Pakistan protested. Barring a tiny minority of MMA supporters.

The reason is simple. The country was turning towards its traditional median. Which, is basically a Sufiana type of Islam. It is not Wahabism and it is not secularism - both concepts being alien to the land of Pakistan............

Similarly, the Wahabi strain is not nearly as strong in Pakistan, as everyone makes it out to be. It is very loud but not very strong. Infact, according to a Harvard/WB study, only around 1% of Pakistani students go to madrassahs. There are only a few things that will make Wahabism strong:

- A perpetual bombing of Muslim countries by the USA, which is traditionaly opposed heavily by Pakistanis......
- A forced secularization of the society, which will receive a counter-reaction in a religiously-oriented country like Pakistan
- Poor governance by the non-MMA groups

It is the last issue that govts. need to concentrate on. And that is also what the mental bandwidth of people on this site should be spent on.

sattar: Please cut and paste what I have written that you consider as my having ``put down your faith``.

echoboom #219

`` Which should send a collective shudder down the spine of all who are growing more nauseated by the day with the Republican Party and the right-wing extremists in whose grip it has fallen. If the GOP continues to pander to this insane agenda, we may all hereafter be denied the freedom to grieve for our loved ones in peace. ``

American people have the ability to toss out their elected representatives. Bush was elected by a narrow margin.

`` But that`s a small price to pay for promoting the ``culture of death,`` just as the loss of our civil liberties was a small price to pay for security. ``

Most Americans have not seen their civil liberties erode. I have not noticed any. I feel sorry for any innocent Muslim Americans whose civil rights were violated. I am hoping in five to ten years USA will destroy irredentists in the Islamic world.

`` · 32,000 Americans are killed each year by guns, including 10 more last week in a Columbine-style and Hitler-inspired rampage in Minnesota. ``

huh ??

`` · 3,487 Americans currently await execution; the U.S. is the only Western democracy that uses the death penalty, and is third behind China and Congo in numbers executed. ``

What do you suggest society do with criminals ? It is not like criminals are convicted in kangaroo court.

`` · The United States dominates the international arms market, selling 2.5 times more weapons ($150 billion annually) than the second- and third- highest arms merchants combined. ``

Most weapon sales are to civilized economically advanced societies like West Europe, Japan, Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea etc.

`` · Bechtel, which has in the past hired GOP stalwarts Caspar Weinberger, George Schultz and William Casey, supplied most of the weaponry held by Saddam Hussein. Today those weapons are used to kill American troops. ``

I never knew Americans made T-72, T-55, MiGs. The whole world minus Syria supported Saddam against Iran. Why pick upon Uncle Sam ?

`` · Carlyle Group invests in weapons systems and military hardware. On and for some time after 9/11, members of the Bush family (including G.W. Bush`s dad) and Osama bin Laden`s family owned controlling interests in Carlyle. ``

It is not like Carlyle Group runs the government. A lot of weapon systems like the Crusader have been cancelled. They were awarded to companies in which the Caryle group had stakes in.

`` · Lockheed Martin is the largest weapons manufacturer in the world. Its head lobbyist is former RNC chairman Haley Barbour. ``

Lockheed sells to the government. What is wrong in hiring a politician to advance your interests.

`` · One in every two casualties of war are civilians caught in the crossfire. ``

How many of the world`s wars are initiated by the Americans ? The whole war on terror would have been averted if Pakistan had supported a geunine multi-ethnic state in Afghanistan. How hard is it for the ISI to round up Arab extremists pre-9/11 ?

Hello chusni-echoboom

tea?

One way out........

There is one and only one way out. And that ain`t quick too.


Give heavy doze of secular and especially completely non-spirtual education (science and technology, secular arts) to the masses.

Create an environment that everybody becomes completely induldged in economic life (mortgaes, leases, credit cards) and has no time to visit a mullah`s jalsa or recite the unHoly book in the morning, or get brain-washed in ramazan.

This will slowly but surely exclude any room for extremism in people`s lives.

If somebody else brings a quicker and more effective way out, to me he will be the true second prophet of islam.

mj