The Barbarians Within The Gates!

Re: Urstruly # 165 and others

You passion is deep and your steadfastness remarkable. You are a true SABZA...

I was one of the Surkhas who used to stand up to the big bad T. Rex called Jamiyat-i-talaba-i-Islam that roamed unchallanged in the Jurassic Universities of the late 70s and early 80s ... Theologically we may have little common ground, and on social issues and women`s place in society we may disagree, but strangely, I find myself sympathically inclined to (the humanitarian implications of) your political dissent... anti-imperialist, pro-liberation (though not liberalization) etc.

But seriously, are you still paying taxes to the Great Satan? If you are, how is that morally justified? Does that not make you an accomplice (a passive one no less) to the murders with bombs that your tax-dollars support? Its an ethical question. What does Islam have to say about it?

As a former SURKHA I can claim that I have not paid a single penny worth of income tax on form 1040 to Uncle Sam since before the first Gulf War of 1991... and now having moved to the other side of the Atlantic I no longer pay even state sales tax or property tax.

BTW, what is your problem with sleek looking women who are fit and work out and don`t have double chins, buldging mammas and triple layered tummies?

...SR

Ferozk,

``As long as the political masters of this unfortunate land are willing to use religion as a crutch for maintaining political power, the mullah will get what he wants because he would have the political rulers of Pakistan over the barrel of his choice.``

The above quote from you summarises the spineless nature of the educated pakistanis. On another instance, the great Romair was ready to put $10 to support my trip to pakistan. Another pakistani stated that he can raise sevral hundred dollars for this great cause of projecting pakistan as a tolerant society. Stuka and dost mitters have been wined and dined to give such a good report that stuka compared pakistan to singapore.

There is a latest news item that women have been banned from marathon runs by punjab govt. Can you write something about it, will the romairs of pakistan tell the truth. Stka could see no indication what so ever of this type of a mind set in pak society.

Feroz, the only help if you choose to change paksitan can come from only from the educated. That will happen only when you take responsibility for the state of affairs in pakistan. learn to tell the truth. When YLh states that there are roads named after abdus salam, tell him that he is telling a lie. When romair states that honour killing is a tribal tradition, tell him that it is legal because of hoodood. learn not to blame the pakistanis,. feroz, do not blame the politicians and ask them to change. The only that you can have is to change yourself. Try to impart integrity to the pak educated, and start with YLH, romair, tahmed and temporal. They are the most dishonest, they are the ones supporting the jihadis and hoodood by attacking the truth sayers.

urstruly: I am glad we agree on the facts of that verse. Thats a start. As for Sabians, as I understand it they were not a branch of christianity but a polytheistic society (akin to hinduism in fact, as I recall reading in a footnote in Yusuf Ali`s translation of the Quran) - and indeed elsewhere the same verse is repeated with the ``polytheists`` being specifically included. Also, those these groups are given only as examples, since the phrase ``or any religion`` is also used, and also the Quran makes clear elsewhere that it is not singling out any particular religion as being ``better`` than others.

You write ``Other than these three people (Muslim, Jews Chris) there are billions of people in this world who ``work righteousness`` everyday of their lives to the best of their human abilities but none belives in Allah (God of Mosses, Abraham, Noah, Mohammad, and Jesus (peace be upon them) AND belive in the Last Day simultaneously.``

First, the facts are otherwise as I must have said a zillion times on chowk (but I will accept your point that you dont have time to read all posts) that in fact hinduism too has the concept of a Supreme Being (Brahman, not to be confused with the caste). Similarly, Taoism has the concept of a supreme being that is remarkably similar to Brahman aka God aka Allah - i.e. in Taoism, the phrase is ``The Tao that can be known is not the true Tao`` (mentioned in footnote in Mahabharata written by Radhakrishnan, the first Indian.

Second, EVEN if a religion does not emphasize everything - the Quran makes it amply clear that we humans are not to start quarelling with one another over matters of religion. Those are matters between God and the individual. It explicitly says that rituals in ALL religions come from God, and that is clearly another indication.

I would love to place some of the creips on chowk (the jay thakerays) in the lowest ring of the inferno myself, but unfortunately according to the Quran they are equal in the eyes of God to any muslim. Too bad. ;-)

Anyway, I do appreciate your honest answer - and hope you will see that what you yourself have written (even ignoring the points I raised above) makes it clear that being a muslim is not a big deal. Indeed, those among us who consider muslims to be a ``chosen people`` (and there are many), are following a path that is very severely condemned in the Quran. I hope you will keep this important point in mind, and then perhaps you will find that you have not just muslims as your brothers and sisters but people of all faiths. And that is a much better way to live.

Re: # 146 kaalchakra & # 142 malikjehanzen

{...context: A native flavored ``Desi Islam`` vs the Najjadi import species of ``Wahabbi Islam`` ...}

We seem to suspect that the battle is already lost, as it might well be. I do not know if there is a way to put the ``Arabized`` genie back into the bottle? A forced solution is near impossible to work.

However, to stretch the Africanized Bee alalogy further, let`s remember that no amount of chemical spray or other BRUTE FORCE methods have worked to save the gradual displacement of the more docile so-called Native Bees by its more ferocious imported cousin. Last I checked, the bee populations in the Southern United States were in serious peril already. This has happened in only the last three decades. By a remarkable co-incidence, its this same three decade period within which the virulent strain of Wahabbi Islam from the Najjadi desert (they are not Hijazis) has infested the Land of the Pure in an effort to purify it even further and faster than it otherwise might have. The more accommodating, tolerant, compassionate, introspective and non-intrusive Desi Islam has been losing out.

There is only one way to fight the Africanized Bees coming in from Latin America, and that is by genetic manipulation. Hybrid queen bees (carrying Native genotypes) are introduced into the mix with a built-in reproductive advantage and they begin to re-claim the bee colonies that had been lost to the more ferocious Latin American migrant bees.

Some say that an ultimate Wahabbi victory is inevitable for the Desi Islam was a fake... That is a seriously bad argument. It is unfair to the Desi strain of Islam. Why is it any more fake than any other? Faith is not about objective, measurable, concrete reality... Its about unconditional Love and Devotion ... reality or logic do not enter the equation (except for the delusional who will attempt to be logical yet will deep down believe in the ultimately unprovable).

Any way, bring back the bee analogy, it can be argued that if properly supported and strengthened, a revival of Desi Islam is the best vaccination against Wahabbism.

If the Great Satan were really Great, or even efficiently Satanic (it IS sufficiently Satanic, though not efficiently so -- and thus these troubles)...
a few billion of those ``created-out-of-thin-air`` US Dollars (call them Satanic Manna - Salva) would fall into the jholey of the majuors at Daataa-sahib and Pak-Pattan so as to enable them to compete against the Saudi funded Wahabbis. The Wahabbis have to be fought Madressa for medressa, sabeel for sabeel, langar for langar and then some. It would surely cost a lot less then cruise missiles and B2 bombers and I think would get far better results.

If instead of shooting the Waziri tribesmen for harboring the Taliban, there was a systemic effort (backed by real resources) was made to promote local prosperity through the Aukaaf Ministry or an NGU substitute much grounds could be re-gained. The root of the Wahabbi success is the organizational effort that has gone in the movement over the past three decades with solid support from the Gulf Oil money, while the chowkidaar`s of secularism and Desi culture were either drunk or asleep at wheel... But, is this contest even a relevent one any more?

The demographic and ecological issues facing the country are so daunting that a few more or a few less angry, stuck-up Wahabbis will only make a marginal difference. It is just happens to be my personal preference to go see Puppu Dholaki at Shahjamal and inhale deep, rather than to listen to the non-sense barkings of Dr. Israar near Regal chowk...

In the mean time, the whole country is being bought out by Gobble & Engulf International, Inc. from under the natives` feet. Think of these Tetra-Pak, Nestle, Phillips, Fergusons, Simons, Citibanks etc, etc, as the New East India Consortium... The naPak Fauj, the MNAs, the bureaucracy etc are exactly where the mansabdaars, nawabs, mirs and rajas were in the days of Company Bahadur. Even Pakistan`s through-the-back-door Prime Minister (rhymes with Crime Minister) is a Citibank boy.

It may well turn out to be a case of doing too little too late, but what else is there left to do?

In the words of Ustaad Daman:

Per Daaman Umeed da chaddya na
esi naal taqdeer dey ghulda rehay

(But letting not go a grip on hope,
we keep wrestling with fate)

...SR

sattar: we have been around this bush a few times, so lets not waste time anymore. I have not even interacted with you, and you accuse me of being uncivil!! Give me a break.

tahmed (#74):

It is incorrect of you to equate Ahmadis with jamaatis. It is also absurd of you to take shots at Ahamdis for no good reason. You try to act with civility but seem to slip into old habits every now and then.

Here’s a brief comment to the point you raised earlier: Ahmadi-Muslim belief in Allah, Quran, and a prophet of Allah makes their ideology somewhat indistinguishable from that of other Muslims. At least try to maintain some objectivity in your views. Furthermore, Quran, your favorite book, in several places states that divine revelation will surely continue.

I hope you can get past your silly hang-ups … and limit yourself to criticizing those who use religion to breed hatred and violence. Kindly spare me your meaningless sermons ... and try to appreciate the simple point I’ve made here.


Urstruly (#166),

The long list of articles of faith which includes the “last prophet” part is obviously incorrect ... and meaningless.

What’s next? Belief in a two thousand year old prophet physically residing above clouds is a part of Islamic faith? While you may take this as a joke … some time ago I read a fatwa from a Muslim scholar in Africa … who professed belief in this prophet as in integral part of Islam. Go figure …

Furthermore, do explain fatwas of kuffr issued against every sect of Islam by mullahs of some or the other sect. They all consider themselves Muslims … and others non-Muslims … go figure. (now, repeating rhetoric against Ahamdis would not be an intelligent response …)

Not content with mucking up Pakistan, Feroz, they have now bought their lovely practices to the UK. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/4406575.stm.

this will have a very bad long term result i am afraid.

netizen # 193

Well, we can sympathize, and be realistically prepared.

If you and I believed that we had discovered just the ``Great Truth,`` we too would want others to benefit from the very same divine luck. We would also not spare much respect or support to the people who obstinately and firmly closed their hearts to our wisdom.

We would feel very generous in letting such recalcitrant unbelievers live and hold on to their beliefs. But, they would seem to be extremely bad people, never to be trusted, and best avoided, no?

This is great discussion about the nature of polity of Pakistan but why
is this issue still being debated?

I am wondering whether such issues were discussed by Muslim League
leaders including Mr. Jinnah and if their discussions are documented and
preserved (and perhaps available on the internet!).
May be there was a manifesto or something that was agreed upon by Muslim League and it was published/distributed to convert people to Muslim League`s point of view of the new state to be born during Pakistan movement.

Re: # 187

tahmad

First of all, I did not read your post your referring to. I do not read each and every post that is posted here. Second, the reason I posted my post about the definition of Muslim is because this question is raised often at discussion fora, especially where Quadianis also interact. I do not understand, by posing this question, whom they try to misguide? themselves? because they already know the answer. Oh boy talk about identity crises.

Anyhoo, the subject matter in your bold letters ``BEING A MUSLIM IS NEITHER A NECESSARY NOR A SUFFICIENT CONDITION for becoming a ``companion of the right hand`` of God (i.e. for attaining entrance to heaven, or in other words being a believer). `` is indeed from Qura`n, however, the way you have put it, it becomes logically quite twisted. Lets see what Qura`n says about this subject:


The Heifer 2:62

Those who believe (in the Qur`an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians, whoever believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

You can see that the Quranic injunction applies to FIVE group of people:

1. Muslims who belive in Qura`n

2. Jews who belive in thier own scriptures

3. Christians

4. Sabians (Sabians are in fact Orthodox Christians who, in those days, used to live in the areas that constitute the present day Iraq)

5. whoever believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness

As far as Jews, Christians, and Sabians are concerned the original message delivered to them was that of Tauheed i.e. Monotheism; Jews never went astray from this message; Christians invented the Concept of Trinity, which was never the message of Jesus (pbuh) and there are still Christian sects who do not belive in this concept; Sabians are one of them. It is also a fact that Jews and Christians both have altered their religious text and they know it very well, which parts. For Muslims, only those parts of Jewish and Christian texts are valid which were authenticated by Holy Prophet (pbuh) thru his word and action as per a verse in Qura`n (I have to look up which one exactly, if you want) and those parts which are not in conflict with the basic teachings of Qura`n.

Other than these three people (Muslim, Jews Chris) there are billions of people in this world who ``work righteousness`` everyday of their lives to the best of their human abilities but none belives in Allah (God of Mosses, Abraham, Noah, Mohammad, and Jesus (peace be upon them) AND belive in the Last Day simultaneously. Do you know any such people/ because I don`t. Hence, the corrollory of this argument is that the Group # 5 is not actually a group but it is the set of attributes that the Muslims, Jews, Christians, and Sabians should and do commonly have to qualify them for their salvation. Therefore, your contention that `` ``BEING A MUSLIM IS NEITHER A NECESSARY NOR A SUFFICIENT CONDITION for becoming a ``companion of the right hand`` of God `` must always have a qualifier and it cannot be taken as a blanket statement. I hope that helps.

kaalchakra: While extremists get all the press, the fact is that the average Pakistani is by temprament among the most tolerant people on earth. For normal people like you in India (as opposed to the extremists in your country), Pakistan will over time prove to be a good friend and and open and welcoming country. As thousands of Indians found out last year.

Re: # 192

I was just having fun. There are hardly any minorities left to convert. A more appropriate slogan would be:

Pakistan mein rehana hoga to ``my brand of Islam`` follow karana hoga :)

re: Netizen # 190

That`s probably not right. They want to rest the governance of Pakistan more firmly on Islam. Islam does permit unbelievers to live within its jurisdiction.

haroon: here, then, are the answers to your questions.

Q: I simply wanted to know what your definition is so that I may expand the arguement to some other relevant matters as well.

A: The definition you seek is right there, and not even the subject of controversy: One who believes that there is in one God, and considers Muhammed to be his prophet.

The logical implication of this is what I have presented in the first para. of #189.


Q: O self-proclaimed enlightened philosophers of Pakistan, do you want to omit Islam from Pakistani politics? Yes or no.
A: No. Islam is a matter between the individual and God, not between the individual and the state. The Quran does not refer to any Islamic state, and in fact the only state it explicitly praises was a non-muslim one - Queen of Sheba`s Sabian (multi-deity) state.
btw, Please dont mock this poor old man tahmed who is merely trying to be honest.


Q: So, you want to `omit` key beliefs from the hearts and minds of Muslims?
A: I dont know what key beliefs you refer to here.

I have got a war cry for the likes of urstruly and haroon:

Pakistan mein rehana hoga to Allah ho Akbar kehana hoga ;)

dost mittar #169: I indeed consider only one basis for Islam: acceptance of the prophet having received a message from God, acceptance of the Quran as being that message, and rejection of any individual who considers himself to be a prophet, or having some special knowledge denied to ordinary people (pirs, fakirs, aalims etc.) as being an intercessor. And I consider it my responsibility before God to understand that message for myself, using my God given brain.

And when I do that, I come up with a completely different islam than is being promoted in Pakistan today by those who seek to convert Pakistan into their personal fiefdom on the basis of their having a special ``in`` with God. The Islam they promote seeks enslave the minds of the Pakistani people to religious priests (as has been done in other religions) - the true Islam sets them free by making them responsible for knowing what is right and what is wrong, and for doing the right thing.