F-16s to Pakistan—Why Now?

re:#57 by CoolAL
Romair is an idiot who keeps rambling the same nonsense again and again. IT all flows from deep inbuilt prejudices and hatred against Indians, something he developed during his stint with the Pak Army.
Sridhar

re:this article
The author is right in saying that F16 being given to Pak is not going to be of much use to that country. The relationship between India and Pak has never been better. This has reduced (though not eliminated) the chance of a war. So, why F16 now?
This has a lot to do with, as Ballukhan said, lobbying in USA. the Aircraft industry in US needs huge orders to keep its workforce busy. Pak had been craving for F16 and made it a ``prestige issue``. So, USA is doing the right thing but at the wrong time!
US might have expected a bigger order from India when it offered more sophisticated version of the aircraft and coproduction. India, from what i have read, is wary of US politicians putting an embargo when it suits them. They have done it to their most servile client state viz Pakistan, so they can do it to anybody.
Some in the US strategic think tank are seeing India as an ally against China. This may be premature. Chinese premier is visiting India and the trade is going to go upwards. Chinese are looking forward to a good relationship with India. So, what gives?
Chinese want peaceful borders in order to concentrate on economic development. They have a long way to go to catch up with the West (especially US). They are not afraid of India though they have started to notice India`s rising status recently.
US, by propping up India militarily and economically, hopes to heat up the race. India has shown ambition to become a world power and US may want to exploit this. A direct confrontation between India and China is of interest to US.
Asia is where the action is going to be in future. As both China and India move towards greater economic progress, it remains to be seen how this game of world politics plays out and who is the winner.
As Sherlock Holmes would say to Dr Watson: The game is afoot!
Sridhar

#81 by taqat-e-parvaaz on April 6, 2005 11:15pm PT


actually, thats not true. do not underestimate pakistan, ever. first of all, pakistan has been producing sophisticated weapons and electronic components now for several years.


mmmkay...renting a satellite, a beat up one at that, doesn`t make pakiland a producer of satellites any more than my renting a buick at hertz makes me a manufacturer of automobiles...



pakistans latest MBT, the al-khalid, has been hailed and is widely respected. anyone can look this up. there is already talk of an al-khalid 2 in pakistani defence circles.


mmmkay...russian tank, ukranian engine and cup holders made in pakiland...


in addition, pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that has the ability to produce nano technology and micro technology. heres a small snippet for proof:

http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/overhorizon.htm


first of all, you`ll need a more credible source...second of all, pakiland doesn`t have the capability to launch a satellite...Highly maneuverable and packed with super-sophisticated electronics don`t mean squat if you can`t get the thing off the ground...maybe you can tie it to a kite and try to launch it in basant...

lookie here...Pakiland`s latest satellite launch vehicle...




as for the private sector, pakistan has recently entered the age of semiconductor technology.


oooh...you made and OR gate....damn...you`re so advanced...wait till pakiland manufactures AND gates...there`s no stopping pakiland...what`ll they come up with next...op-amps?

I choose `the automobile sector`, `cause it has long been considered a luxury in this part of the world, to demonstrate that we indians needn`t worry what the pak`s or anyone else thinks.We are far , far ahead of the game.The following clips will show that if this is what is happening in the auto sector in India, let all non indians just be in awe about the rest of the indian economy.We just need to believe in ourselves and keep on moving ahead.

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Tata Motors March sales up 28%

PTI[ THURSDAY, APRIL 07, 2005 12:00:41 PM]
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MUMBAI: India`s biggest car and bus/truck maker, Tata Motors Ltd, said on Thursday total vehicle sales in March rose 28 per cent to 44,433 units from a year ago. Details are awaited.

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Maruti clocks record sales in `04-05, M800 skids 31%

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, APRIL 05, 2005 05:43:09 AM]
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Spring seems to be the season of records. Car market leader Maruti clocked 54,613 units in March, including 3,920 units of exports. This is the highest monthly sales by the carmaker. Maruti sold 536,301 units in fiscal 2004-05, its highest annual sales in the last two decades.

The fiscal sales include exports of 48,899 units, and is up 13.6% over last fisc’s tally of 472,122 units. Maruti also surged ahead with combined sales in the B and C segments. In the Alto-WagonR-Zen segment it was up 47% in March and 54% for the year. In the Esteem-Baleno segment it was up 141% in March and 109% for the entire fisc. It’s bread and butter A segment though was down 34% in March and nearly 31% through the year.

Arch rival Hyundai, too, has recorded its highest cumulative sales of 23,669 units in March, up 23.2% over the same month last year. In the domestic market, Hyundai clocked 16,315 units, up 18.3% over March `04. The company`s exports for the month stood at 7,354 units. Its fiscal tally of 224,243 cars was up 30% over the previous year. Its exports were up 95% this fisc at 82,093 units. In the domestic market, Hyundai sold 142,150 cars in 2004-05, a growth of 9.5%.

General Motors sold 3,516 cars in March, its highest monthly volume. Compared to last March, this tally is up 35%. The March pickings included 1,905 units of the Tavera, 1,101 units of the Optra and 506 units of the Corsa. The Tavera clocked its highest monthly sales since launch.

Vehicle maker M&M clocked 10,710 units in March compared to 9,027 units last year. Its total domestic sales (including LCV and three-wheelers) is up 22% at 14,025 units. Including exports, the total tally is up 24% at 14,629 units. Scorpio sales, including exports, were up from 1,834 units in last March to 2,332 units this time round.

Other vehiclemakers too did well this March. Eicher Motors registered a 48% growth in commercial vehicle sales in the domestic market during the financial year with sales of 21,709 vehicles compared to 14,665 in the previous year. Overall sales, including exports, during the year were up 45% at 23,004 units.

Sales in the domestic market in March at 3,217 vehicles were also 48% higher than 2,176 vehicles sold last March. Overall sales in March 2005, including exports, were up 45% at 3,439 units from 2,377 units last year.

source:http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1068893,curpg-2.cms

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List of automotive companies manufacturing cars in india:

http://www.autoindex.org/makelist.plt?cntr=32&letter=All

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Check out Tata`s new SUV concept at the 2005 Geneva auto show:

http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/motorshow/2005-geneva/gallery10_page_5.html

Cheers!!

#81 by taqat-e-parvaaz

Is that why Musharraf procured a discarded satellite and claimed Pakistan had raced ahead of India in space technology? Ha! Ha! Ha!

re: cayenne # 1

There is nothing we Indians want more than to see our abilities reach a global status. :)

(I share all those vanities. It`s just fun to look at them and be able to poke fun at them once in a while)

The stability of pakistan is essential to the development of south asia in general.We indians can trust that the US, out of its` own self interest will always have a hand in the affairs of pakistan.Things will never get out of hand.What india should do in my opinion, humble as it is, is just mind its` own business and concentrate on putting its` own house in order.We indians need to believe in ourselves, our future and our destiny.The rest as they say, will then , be history.

#74 by dost-mittar on April 6, 2005 11:21am PT

What you`re saying will never happen...The Pakis want Indian Kashmir...The Indians aren`t going to give it up..The pakis want Kashmir...rinse repeat...you can see where this gets into an infinite loop...

It is time for India and Pakistan to look beyond CBMs and even beyond Kashmir. They should think strategically of a future in which the hostility between the two is not exploited by others. That the US move to sell F-16s to Pakistan and much more to India is designed to help its ailing aircraft manufacturers is a no-brainer. Why these two countries would so eagerly fall into this trap, where an outsider is taking advantage of their mutual hostility to line its own pockets is the real question? And it`s not just the US, China too is a willing player to exploit the hostility between the two. At least India has been smart vis-a-vis China and is not letting the Americans dictate its relationship with that country. Even Iran at times is able to exploit the differences between the two estranged siblings whenever it suits its purpose. Its time for Indian and Pakistani strategic thinkgers to devise a strategic alliance of its own, so that they can become players rather than mere mohras in the international game of chess.

Urstruly#70:
``The most they will do will be to start manufacturing toys and dollar-store stuff while chinese will move into more sophisticated manufacturing arena.``

Your contempt for the hindu is making you overlook some obvious facts. The reality is quite the opposite. India has been much more able to develop a niche in the knowledge-based industries than China.

Re: # 74 DM
//....Its time for Indian and Pakistani strategic thinkgers to devise a strategic alliance of its own, so that they can become players ...//

Indian and Pakistani strategic thinkers ??? There are no such beasts called ``strategic thinkers`` anywhere in india or pakiland.

What you find in India are intellectually-challenged dimwits who cannot break-out of a paper-bag even if their lives depend upon it..... And you expect them to become ``Players``?? All they know is how to whine.

And if anybody could be worse than them - then you would be looking at paki ``strategic thinkers``. Pakis would actually willingly walk into the paper-bag from which they can`t walk out of. For them ``strategic thinking`` means brown-nosing to some big-daddy in order to be able to needle the hinuds.

But then nothing better is expected from pakis. But one really wonders why the indians are the way they are. Stupid morons - it`s unbelievable they way the Indians have been doing their ``strategic thinking``.

The timing of F-16 sale has more to do with Bush`s resounding win in 2004 elections, than anything else. The Democrats, who are more pro-India than Republicans, are too demoralised now to effectively challenge Bush`s decision in Congress and Senate.

According to some of my friends in the PAL-C (a Pakistani lobby in Washington D.C.), President Bush had already agreed to the F-16s sale during the last Musharraf visit to Camp David. If Bush had announced that decision back then, he would have faced tremendous flak from the vociferous Democrats. The Democrats were already accusing Bush of supporting dictatorships in middle East, Pakistan and Egypt.

The F-16 is primarily a political stunt aimed at convincing the Pakistani public that America is a sincere friend of Pakistan. In the short run, it will bolster the PAF considerably but in the longer run, PAF is going to benefit most from the JF-17.

One need not be particularly bright to see what is going on: China has an economic shadow that that firmly encompasses the far east and australia and is also becomng significant as far away as latin america. It seeks to extend its military presence pari passu by building up a navy to challenge the US in the pacific.

India seeks something similar, although at a smaller scale, in the Indian Ocean. Pakistan seeks to counter this by building up its own naval strength.

Seen in this light, the recent Sino-Pak agreements (reported in yesterday`s and today`s Dawn) fit into this like a piece of jigsaw: China has helped build the new port at Gwadar, and just signed the agreement to further enhance it, and also to strengthen pakistan`s navy by providing four new frigates among other things - and in return (as the US suspects, per some reports) will probably get rights for chinese subs. Pakistan is happy because it has (once again) countered Indian attempts at extending its military reach. China is happy because it has both a potential commercial outlet for its goods as well as military presence at the world`s oil lifeline. Pakistan is also happy because it can play off China with the US (which gives it F-16s and naval planes). Pakistan is even more happy because India does not like all this at all.

Meanwhile, poor abdul and his wife worry about the next meal and medicine for their sick kid. While the Big Boys play their Big Games of Statecraft. And with all due respect they are clueless where all this is leading to - since the day of the Nation-States is over anyway, as the planet shrinks to a global village.

(OK, thru ranting).

drlokraj #64,
The USA is concerned about its place in the world just like any other country should. The status of other countries does not worry the USA unless it affects the USA`s position in the world. That`s how diplomacy of every country should be. India`s diplomacy is thankfully now moving in that direction. Only our development and our place in the world should matter to the Indian govt. Diplomacy is not about charity to other countries but about progress of only your own country.

The basic premise of this article is non-sensical although Mr. Ghauri has always been a no-non-sense guy.

The basic premise that America is propping up India as a superpower to counter China is non-Sense. China CANNOT be countered through a military threat of any size; because the nature of threat is not militaristic in nature but it is economic. Why would America help create a competitor that shows no inhibitions about becoming great. But the times have changed. The colonial era, when economics were controlled through military power has passed a century ago. Americans are learning this lesson the hard way in Afghnistan and Iraq.

The issue of supplying weapons to India is not as big as you have made it out to be. In my opinion there are two reasons for that:

1. Europeans have started re-selling weapons to China despite a US imposed sanction. They have told Americans to shove their sanctions where sun doesn`t rise. That leaves no option for Americans to sell its weapons elsewhere like India and Pakistan (potentially hot markets) or risk its manufacturers going out of business.

2. I think the Americans are trying their best from keeping India from buying oil from Iran (thru pipeline or even thru the sea), where Iran has promised to supply oil to only those who would buy it with Euros instead of US dollars. Iranians would supply oil cheaper than market rate and along with Iran, Russia and South America, especially Venzuella are opting for this option. That would sink the American economy to the abyss with in 5 years. The common sense, however, tells hindu baniya that even if he is given American technology and manufacturing liscences he would still need oil to support its economy. Irony of this whole situation is that, the Hindu baniya has become the Shylock who wants his pound of flesh too.


Trust me, I am no fan of India and I don`t see any potential of India becoming any kind of power in next 50 years at least. The most they will do will be to start manufacturing toys and dollar-store stuff while chinese will move into more sophisticated manufacturing arena.

Re: Romair & bbabu variour
Gentelmen!
Please don’t quarrel about the insignificant. We have to work hard to enrich the white man :)

Regards,

Faruk

yaar, the idea behind the Pakistani Jf-17 is to provide us with a jet to replace the ageing jets in our fleet. The current f-16 batch and the new one will be the sophisticated core of the air force and the JF-17 will be the `unsophisticated` core of the air force. It will replacce our aging migs, f-7`s, etc.