F-16s to Pakistan—Why Now?

The idiot does not read my post properly, instead quotes another Pakistani idiot. The UN report does not mention 7500 casualities per day.

CoolAL,
SEAsians are good businessmen, so they would sell to both India and China. I dont think Myanmar has enough gas for all of India needs.

#147

Your gotta be kidding me.....Why would we even think of such a possibility? When we could easily run a land pipeline through Burma into Assam?

Also, do you really believe that SE Asia region has any potential for exporting gas to India? Assuming that they do have that kinda gas fields, why would they bother? They all border China and it will suck up what ever they can produce...

CoolAL,
An added possibility could be undersea pipeline from Malaysia.

#144

Look we need a pipeline. It could be an undersea pipe line starting from Oman to Gujrat completely by passing Pakistan or a lind-pipeline between Iran and India through Pakistan. I believe it would cost around $5 billion which is more than double what it would cost to lay a pipe from the South Pars field in Iran, across Baluchistan and Sindh into Gujarat or Rajasthan.

The nice thing about the undersea pipeline is once we build it, then we can use it to get Gas from not only from Iran and Oman but also from Saudi Arabia, UAE, Bahrain, Qatar,Iraq, Kuwait as well as The Central Asian Republics. Getting gas from CARs would require another land pipe-line across Iran to the southern Coast. That is an eminent possibility. If that happens the biggest losers in this game will be the Pakistanis. The US companies are playing a major role in building this pipeline so the US has a major say in this. The US-Iran relationship is the fly in the ointment here. If we can somehow broker a relationship between Iran and the US. It will be a tremendous victory for everyone. Listening to Clinton speak at Davos recently brings a lot of optimism regarding the US-Iran relationship.

CoolAL,
The benefits of the pipeline are a bit overrated. The price coated is so high that it was reported that most companies including Reliance are unwilling to pay. If the pipeline prospects are still alive, then its due to the stupid pertroleum minister of ours.

Folks,

Just thinking out aloud....There is one more angle to this that you guys have not considered.

The US does not like Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline being built. They don`t like it because thay do not want Iran to prosper.

Now, I don`t like it either but that is because I would hate to hand a weapon to country if it was filled with nutcases like t-e-p. However, if the country was filled with arrogant fools like Manto instead, I may be able to work together for mutual benefit. I may not like him personally, but I am sure I will find him to be honorable in his business dealings and will be able to have a decent working relationship with him. Also, please note that the Baglihar dam would have offered the necessay counter to the I-P-I running through Pakistan. Both these would have prevented the other from doing something stupid and was very self stabilizing.

Therefore, the IPI pipeline could have been mutually beneficial to all three countries Iran, Pakistan and India. But more so to Pakistan than most. Iran and India can continue thir relationship via LNG tankers as they have been doing or build an undersea pipeline bypassing Pakistan completely when it becomes technologically as well as economically viable.

The IPI pipeline was being considered to bring fuel to run Powerplants. There are other ways to increase our power producing capabilities....I would also like India to start building 1000 MW reactors and raise our nuke power producing capacity to 25,000 MW by 2012. At the rate we are going, we have mastered 550 MW reactor building, the first commercial one went critical in Trombay this year. We have several 220 MW reactors in operation. We are getting two 1000 MW Russian reactors by next year. This will raise our Nuke power producing capacity to about 5000 MW. We have a looooong way to go and the US knows that. So they are offering civilian Nuke Power reactors AND technology transfer for basically abandoning the I-P-I pipeline for now. But based on our prior relationship with the US, I am highly sceptical that they would indeed provide the kind of help we need in the Civilian Nuke Technology arena.

On the other hand, this deal that the US is offering to India will deal Pakistan a double whammy. Not only will there be a loss of revenue from the IPI pipeline, but they will also lose the leverage that it would have given them to counter Baghlihar.

This deal the US is offering is too good to be true. India should seriously consider this option.

Re: # 142
calling me names will not get you anywhere. perhaps you should look around and see why i had to say what i did. control your fellow countrymen and it will not come to this. i was not the aggressor. i was just defending what i saw right. so stay out of this, otherwise my boot will be up your skinny ass as it already has been up your fellow baboons shri arjun and shri hashish`s. hahahaaa...

arjun #140,
yep, like the 70000 people supposed to be killed in kashmir. Some deluded Pakistani collected the statistics in his dream, and today seems like all of Pakistani press believes it.

Re: # 141
here you go crack smoker. i even did the math for you at the end there, since i know your protein deficient mind wouldnt be able to handle such large numbers.....

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/816/

The UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (known as UNMOGIP) issued a press release on Tuesday Sep 16, 2003 calling on “the parties involved in the Kashmir issue to observe the “International Day of Peace” on September 21 and appeals to them to initiate a ceasefire and to do their best to prolong the duration of any cessation of hostilities for as long as possible. The conflict over Jammu and Kashmir has cost many lives, caused much tragedy and could, sadly, continue to affect the stability of the region for years to come. It is the UNMOGIP’s hope that the parties to the conflict will embrace this opportunity to lay down their arms and observe the International Day of Peace”, unquote. Coincidentally a senior US diplomat was visiting Srinagar when UNMOGIP issued this call, this combined to infuriate the Indians. On the other hand it gave heart to the freedom fighters within Kashmir that there was renewed western interest. Even though there has been far greater violence in Kashmir than in any other area in the world in the recent past, till Kargil came around in 1999 Kashmir was generally ignored by the western media, a benign neglect that glossed over decades of brutal Indian atrocities on the Kashmiri people. Kargil was a watershed that force-fed Kashmir back into international consciousness as well as media focus, the dispute is now seen by western powers as a major potential nuclear flashpoint.

The Indians have protested that UNMOGIP abused its authority by issuing their call and said they would take up the matter with the UN HQ in New York. For the record, UNMOGIP was set up in 1947-48 to monitor the Cease-Fire Line (CFL) that divided the opposing forces after the war that ensued when India occupied Kashmir by use of subterfuge and brute force. Elements of Kashmiri State and civil forces had combined with Pakistani irregulars to resist the blatant Indian occupation. India maintains that when the Line of Control (LOC) was delineated after the 1971 Indo-Pak War, the CFL ceased to exist and UNMOGIP became redundant. This is neither the understanding of either the UN HQ or of Pakistan, otherwise the Observer’s Group would have been wound up a long time ago. In addition the very name UNMOGIP suggests that it includes intervention on India – Pakistan issues. If India does not accept this, why was UNMOGIP created, as a coffee club? On the one hand India keeps claiming that infiltrators are crossing over to indulge in “cross-border terrorism”, on the other hand they refuse Pakistan requests to increase UNMOGIP surveillance by increasing the number of ground observers to stop the alleged infiltration, there has also been international suggestions for heliborne surveillance teams along the LOC.

It is no surprise that with its usual arrogance and obstinacy, India flatly rejected the UNMOGIP proposal. Though there were some reservations on the Pakistani side, in the greater interest of peace and tranquility in the region Pakistan’s reaction has been different. While maintaining that symbolic observance of the cease-fire has no virtually effect on the ground because of the obdurate Indian intransigence, Pakistan welcomed UNMOGIP proposal and said we would observe “International Peace Day” on Sep 21 in all sincerity. Look at the statistics for the period of one year since Sep 21, 2002, the last time the “International Peace Day” was observed. During this period of one year India has lobbed as many as 80000 artillery shells and 120000 mortar rounds into Azad Kashmir. The casualties on our side of the LOC have been heavy, other than uniformed personnel, 127 civilians have been killed and 499 wounded, a overwhelming number of these are children, the primary target of Indian attacks. There have been more than 200 violations by aerial Remote Powered Vehicles (RPVA). If we were to add up all the casualties due to the terrorist attacks within India during the period since Sep 21, 2002, that India blames on “Pakistan-based terrorists” the casualty figures are far less than those the Indians have inflicted in their ruthless artillery and mortar attacks in the past year. {And it is nothing compared to the average of about 7500 Kashmiris killed and about 25000 injured every year, year after year, by Indian occupation forces within Kashmir since 1989}.

7500*15 years=112500 casualties

#138 by vivek on April 9, 2005 10:15am PT



t-e-p is one of the modern day Goebbels that Pakistan seems to have in significant numbers


The idea of propaganda isn`t to fool youself....

conjuring up myths to keep the average paki would be propaganda....this is just self-delusion...it`s common among pakis, from the average jihadi like t-e-p to the prez/dictator...remember him telling abdul paki how pakiland was ahead of india in satellite technology because they rented a defective hughes satellite..that`s not propaganda...pakis actually believe that shit...just like captain clueless wasn`t BSing when he told everyone to wear a t-shirt with a paki flag if you wanted to be safe in the US post-9/11...he actually believes that....

#133 by taqat-e-parvaaz on April 8, 2005 9:56pm PT



you army couldnt even keep up! SSG commandos were so deep in your territory and were causing such heavy damage,


And the nazis were outside leningrad...what`s your point?

bottom line...India controls the Kargil heights...as it controls siachen...you don`t have squat...

you tried a reverse siachen and got your head handed to you...which is why nawaz rushed uninvited to DC, on the 4th of july....

only a dumb paki like you will believe that the PM of the country that was winning would make such a desperate plea...

keep chanting the slogan ``Kashmir banega Pakistan``....we`ll see if it does you any good....

rshridhar,
t-e-p is one of the modern day Goebbels that Pakistan seems to have in significant numbers. Their philosophy is simple - bullshit a 1000 times, and ultimately they start believing their own crap.

rshridhar,
Don`t waste your time and energy on a loony.

re: taqat-e-parvaaz
Poem:
``Taqat-e-parvaaz
akl-e-naasaaz
kar raha hai chok mein
behisaab bakwaas

Taqat-e-parvaaz
chor, luccha aur jaal-saaz
kameena-e-gaandu-e-gulzar
kar raha hai chowk mein
badtameezi behizaab``
My own feeble attempt at some Urdu poetry.
Guys, feel free to join in.
Sridhar

Re: # 136

funny coming from a bony veggie samosa eater as yourself. the problem with all you guys is that you`ve always underestimated pakistan. and quite frankly, once you do that, you`ve not only lost the battle, you`ve lost the war. you and your boyfriends vivek and shri arjun cannot stand the concept of a pakistan. it ruins your crazy hindutva policies of an `akhand bharat.` to pursue this dream, india will go to any lengths, even thinking itself a superpower capable of producing jet engines, all of which eventually fall out of the air like birdshit into the shit hole we all call india! so go ahead, make your lame attempts at urdu poetry.

#140
as i`ve already said, i am not sure who you think is deluded. its not pakistan that dreams itself a superpower when it has 300 million poor people lying naked on the streets of calcutta and bihar. its not pakistan that thinks it can produce tanks and then waste hundreds of millions of rupees in state taxes, and then stupidly try to make a jet engine for its pathetic LCA and nearly kill the pilot inside of it because the engine blew up!! perhaps you should buy a dictionary shri arjun and look up `deluded.` your george bush complex of using words you clearly do not know is not the best of ideas.

#121 by tahmed32

``As long as a single child goes hungry in Pakistan, as long as a single sick person goes without medical treatment, it is contrary to the ``national interest`` for Pakistan to spend more than absolutely necessary for ensuring Pakistan`s defense``

You do have a point there. A significant segment of Pakistan intelligentsia subscribes to this view. But there is another significant counter-argument to your point: Governments are responsible for defense as well as education/health. Govt should spend most of its budget on infrastructure, mega projects, defense and debt servicing instead of crowding out private investment in education/health. Govt should regulate the education/health sectors and give tax incentives.

``As for the long run that you mention, the only long run goal is peace and not unnecessary weapons``

Sometimes weapons ensure peace and weakness encourages wars like 1971.

yummmmmyyyy..........400 indian soldiers put of their shame for serving the indian army! they must be thanking pakistan now!! hahahaa.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1703495.stm


Coffin scandal rages in India
Protesters in Delhi demand resignation of Fernandes
Kashmir is a hugely sensitive issue in India
The Indian parliament was adjourned on Wednesday for the second day running as the opposition demanded the resignation of Defence Minister George Fernandes over an army coffin scandal.

Both houses of parliament were adjourned over the affair which centres on a report that the government paid vastly inflated sums for coffins for soldiers killed in Kashmir in 1999.


Nobody will forgive those involved for having purchased coffins that had to be subsequently rejected (HAHAHAHAHAAAA)

Indian state radio

Not only were the 500 aluminium coffins overpriced, but the US-based supplier failed to meet Indian specifications. (THATS WHAT YOU GET FOR TRUSTING YOUR `STRATEGIC PARTNER`)

Soldiers killed fighting separatists in Indian-administered Kashmir are regarded as martyrs by many Indians and opposition deputies shouted down the government with cries of ``coffin thieves``.

``Nobody will forgive those involved for having purchased coffins that had to be subsequently rejected,`` Indian state radio commented on Wednesday.

Mr Fernandes only returned as defence minister in October after being forced out of office over a scandal over weapons purchases.

He has refused to resign, saying he has asked the US company for a refund

Public anger

More than 400 Indian soldiers were killed in the 1999 conflict which began when Islamic militants infiltrated the Kargil sector of Kashmir from Pakistan.

A report in The Times of India newspaper says the Comptroller and Auditor General found that the government had paid an American company $2,500 for each of the 500 coffins.

Indian troops
The fighting in Kashmir continues with one militant reported killed on Wednesday
But five years earlier, it had only paid $172 per coffin.

Moreover, many of the coffins were never used, being rejected as too heavy.

``What is really shocking is that the coffins of the martyrs were bought at an exorbitant price,`` said the chief whip of the opposition Congress Party, Pryaranjan Dasmunshi.

``They have no right to stay in office, until the prime minister explains to the house.``

For Indian radio, the anger of opposition deputies was a genuine reflection of public feeling:

``The mood of the parliamentarians amply reflected the shock and anger faced by each and every Indian on these sordid revelations.``

Ministry`s reply

The Defence Ministry says it had to buy aluminium coffins so that the bodies of Indian soldiers could be sent home in a dignified manner.

It said that an order for 500 coffins was made with the company Buitron and Baize to be delivered in consignments.

When the first batch of coffins was delivered, it was discovered to be sub-standard and that led to the cancellation of the order for the remaining 350.

The Ministry of Defence says the company was in breach of contract and is asking for some of its money back.

US offers to sell India advanced weaponry

We intend to redraw the strategic map of Indo-US relations, say top US officials g Natwar to visit Washington on 12th

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: The United States has offered India an assortment of advanced weapons to balance its decision to sell F-16 fighter aircrafts to Pakistan. The weaponry offered includes Patriot PaC II anti-missile systems, network-centric early warning and battlefield control and command systems.

During US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice’s visit here last month, the two sides agreed to consolidate defence and energy ties and conclude the second phase of the Next Step in Strategic Partnership (NSSP), which encompasses high technology trade.

“We intend to re-draw the strategic map of Indo-US relations,” said senior US Embassy officials, adding that the two countries would engage more closely in the coming weeks. External Affairs Minister Natwar Singh will visit Washington on April 12, which will be followed by US Pacific Command Commander-in-Chief Admiral William J Fallone’s first visit here.

A high-level US delegation visited India recently and made presentations about the Patriot PaC II systems to Indian defence officials, which was a follow-up of three Indian observers attending the missile shield system’s live demonstration trials in Texas, said officials.

The officials said US aviation majors Lockheed Martin and Boeing would bid for India’s plan to buy 126 multi-role combat aircraft and were hopeful of getting the contract. They said that US armed forces had proposed to give a new dimension to military-to-military engagements between the two countries by company-level joint exercises in California in June and taking these manoeuvres to battalion-level first and then to brigade-level by 2007.

Indian Air Force’s wish to engage in joint manoeuvres with F-16s and early warning aircraft would be realised soon, said US officials, referring to the planned joint exercises in November over the Kalaikunda base in West Bengal.

Asserting the US was committed to “serious energy dialogue” with India, including on civilian use of nuclear energy, the officials said this issue would be boosted with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Petroleum Minister Mani Shankar Aiyer’s upcoming visit to Washington. “India and US are both energy deficit countries and a close cooperation in this field is viewed by us as mutually advantageous,” they said.

Declaring that US viewed its strategic engagement with India in a global rather than regional context, US officials said an indication of this was that defence sales between the two countries had shot up to 200 million US dollars in 2002 from zero in 2000.

Deputy Chairman of the Planning Commission Montek Singh Ahluwalia and Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran will accompany Natwar on his visit.

His delegation includes Department of Atomic Energy’s Strategic Planning Group Director RB Grover, Indian Space Research Organisation Scientific Secretary V Sundararamaiah and External Affairs Ministry Joint Secretary (Americas) S Jaishankar.

Re: # 131
yeah keep dreaming veggie samosa. man, a lack of protein really can screw up someones brain. i can believe you buffoons still believe the US wants to be your `strategic partner.` pakistan can match whatever india can throw at it. its only going to get worse from here on out. advanced F-16s, JF-17s armed with swedish data links, an italian radar and BVR missiles, not to mention the deadly chinese J-10, which the US navy has admitted is more potent than its own super hornet. go ahead, tell your bhangee government to buy F-16s and F-18s. you`ll be falling right into place.....

re: vivek # 125

Count me in on everything jingoistic, even if it is all dreamy. he he

All peoples must dream very big.

What part of ``no redrawing of borders`` isn`t clear to the pakis?

India keeps Indian Kashmir, Pakistan keeps paki Kashmir...china keeps the part it was gifted by Pakistan....

No redrawing maps, Natwar tells Pakistan

Staff Report

NEW DELHI: India has told Pakistan that it is open to all options that they offer except redrawing the map of India and having a second partition.

“Our views are quite clear. We are open to all options that they offer, except redrawing the map of India and having a second partition,” External Affairs Minister Natwar Singh told BBC World.

#123 by stuka on April 8, 2005 8:46am PT


Taqat e Parvaz:

``no one in pakistan is brainwashed as to what happened in kargil.``


You need brains to be brainwashed...

t-e-p is probably in his teens...he doesn`t understand anything he`s pasting...check out the details of what he thinks is super-cool IC technology....

HisExcellency #108

`` At best this is a necessary evil (i.e. in case of the US which must strengthen its military alliances with Pakistan and India in order to meet the emerging Chinese threat), and at worst it is a vainglorious attempt by an undemocratic regime to project military power ``

The primary Chinese threat is economic. Pakistan would be of marginal importance for both USA and China in economic matters.

`` America has learnt its lessons from the 1990s when US naively imposed nuclear sanctions on Pakistan. This monumental blunder cost America considerable leverage with Pakistan. And for what benefit? Pakistan still continued its nuclear program relentlessly. And this nuclear program was India-specific, not meant to be used against US or Israel. The F-16s sale [and the US silence over A.Q.Khan scandal] are just indications that US wants to develop a long-term relationship with Pakistan. ``

Here we go again.

What were US nuclear sanctions on pakistan in 1990 ?

1. Weapons embargo - F-16 spares parts. There are alternative suppliers for other military equipment like China and France

It is not like USA was selling weapons to India during the 1990s either. While Pakistani military was hurt by the Pressler amendment Indian military was suffering from financial problems and collapse in the Indo-Soviet weapons agreements.

2. $$$ - Given US budget deficit do not expect any goodies. Aid to Israel has falled in real terms over the years.

USA never cut off diplomatic relations, never cut off trade relations. USA buys 25% of your textile exports.

This whole hoopla over sanctions is something manufactured by the Pakistani establishment.

`` Pakistan`s economic situation is now qualitatively better than 1999. We can now afford these fighter jets `without eating grass`, affecting the various economic development programmes in progress or giving up the JF-17 project. These jets are a long-term investment.``

You are still begging for debt forgiveness and debt relief.

taqat-e-parvaaz #114

`` WASHINGTON — How damaging would a concerted attack on American satellite systems be? Pentagon officials cite the 1998 malfunction of the Galaxy IV satellite, which shut down 80 percent of pagers in the United States, as an example of the disruptions that could follow an attack. The episode was deemed an accident. China, however, made it known that future malfunctions might not be accidental. ``

It is one thing to make a threat. It is another thing to shut down a satellite.

`` In January, a two-year study by a panel of generals and civilian defense experts, including Donald Rumsfeld, the man who would become secretary of defense, laid out a host of emerging threats to U.S. satellites: ``

One of the goals of such studies is to generate govt funds for newer weapon systems

`` *Attacks on satellite ground stations: Such assaults could range from a physical attack on stations to computer hackers breaking into the networks that direct the satellites and receive their transmissions. ``

Try attacking a satellite ground station

`` *Jamming: Many countries, including Russia, China, Iraq, North Korea, Iran and Cuba, possess electronic jamming capabilities to disrupt satellite operations. Pentagon officials say the chances of such capability falling into the hands of terrorist groups or individuals has increased with the miniaturization of jamming devices. Russia now markets a hand-held system the size of a cigarette packet that can jam Global Positioning Satellite transmissions for 50 miles. A slightly larger version can block transmissions for 160 miles. Both could be used not only against U.S. ground forces but also against aircraft. ``

It does not take too long to whack a jammer

`` *Ground lasers: Directed at an orbiting satellite, these high-energy beams can be projected into space to dazzle or blind a satellite’s sensors and cameras. Some U.S. military satellites are equipped with shutters to guard against laser attack, but many are defenseless, the report said. ``

Be my guest. Try firing a laser into sky. Let alone hitting a satellite spinning at extremely high speed.

`` *Microsatellites and nanosatellites: With the miniaturization of space system technologies, these small satellites range between 200 and 20 pounds and even come in sizes as small as a compact disc player. Highly maneuverable and packed with super-sophisticated electronics, they can zoom up beside other satellites, inspect them with cameras and transmit images back to Earth. ``

Exactly how do you plan to transmit images back to earth ? What makes you think such transmissions cannot be jammed ?

`` Weaponized microsatellites loaded with rockets or lasers are expected to emerge in the coming years, capable of disrupting, disabling or destroying enemy satellites. Among the countries that possess microsatellite technology are the United States, Russia, China, Israel and Pakistan. ``

There is no documentation of micro-satellite technology being deployed. USA is still building its next generation of microsatellites for spying.


`` *Nuclear detonation: The explosion of even a small nuclear device in space would destroy or damage nearby satellites and leave lingering radiation that would halt new satellite operations for months. Pentagon officials say all that is needed for an attack like this is a rocket and simple nuclear device. Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Israel and Pakistan, along with the five declared nuclear states, already have missiles that can reach the necessary altitudes, and either possess or are believed to be developing nuclear weapons. ``

Why would India not be a nuclear state ? Did you selectively edit the article ?

kaalchakra,
Comments on your two visions:
India`s vision is not unrealistic if it is stretched for a period of 50 years. The doctrine is good in the sense that it assumes that nobody is India`s friend or enemy, and our threat over the years can come from anywhere. India should aim to become a great power but it will take a long time. However, they should working on it from now.

About Pakistan`s vision, I think they still consider the need for united block of islamic nations. How realistic they are is something for Pakistanis to judge. Its their country and they know it best.

Our two ``ludicrously unrealistic`` visions:

To understand the military-political behavior of the Indian ``establishments,`` we should look at its modern `ludircously unrealistic`` vision: to be counted among the world`s great powers, with long reach of its influence, and to be in such a secure position that no other nation can impose her `unreasonable` will upon India.

In Pakistan`s case, until recently, it seemed to be as follows: to be the leader of a strong and united block of all Islamic nations, and to engage with all non Islamic countries, particularly with India, in the capacity of the leading representative of all of the earth`s muslims.

These arose as just random thoughts. Anyone who finds them ``ludicrously inappropriate`` is most welcome to say so.

Taqat e Parvaz:

``no one in pakistan is brainwashed as to what happened in kargil.``

Yeah right. Most Pakistanis think they were winning a great victory and Clinton begged Sharif to get his troops out. Whatever!!!

``yes pakistan made some mistakes in 1971, but so did india. was there a report there? why did india intrude in a personal matter?``

Personal matter? What about the millions of refugees fleeing into India from East Pakistan? Was Yahya going to pay India for them? India announced the economic burden of the rerfugees for 10 months but the US under Nixon ignored it.




`` but theres no mistakes about kargil and that pakistan army commandos were butt raping skinny indian soldiers. ``

Your statement is half right...it is no secret that Pakistani troops (mainly Pathans) prefer butt raping due to latent homo tendencies. However, in Kargil, they never got close enough to Indians without getting killed. I believe they took solace with Sheep but you can confirm that with GHQ Rawalpindi. LOL!!!

Re: # 123

keep deluding yourself. such a common indian inferiority complex shield. why dont you go research the scandal that erupted over coffins in the indian army. you army couldnt even keep up! SSG commandos were so deep in your territory and were causing such heavy damage, the bhindians had to buy coffins from other places! haha. but of course since you`re an indian like shri arjun, you have an inferiority complex when it comes to pakistan!

taqat-e-parvaaz#116:

Pakistan cricket team zindabad!

I am a regular volunteer at a place where I meet children suffering from cancer and their parents. I know how Inzamam and his team-mates felt. I also know how the kids felt as I know how the kids feel whenever any of the Ottawa Senators hockey player visits them.

HisExcellency #108 first, and btw, your nick reminds me of the man who had the door to his house made only 4 feet high, so everyone visiting him was forced to bow down.
:-)

Anyway, sir, I am all for ensuring proper defense of Pakistan so indian ambitions at projecting regional power end where the Pakistan boundary beings, and the missile/nuke combination does this effectively. However, any penny spent beyond that is improper use of public funds. As long as a single child goes hungry in Pakistan, as long as a single sick person goes without medical treatment, it is contrary to the ``national interest`` for Pakistan to spend more than absolutely necessary for ensuring Pakistan`s defense. The national interest of Pakistan is the welfare and security of its people, not the acquisition of weapons it does not need for self-defense.

As for the long run that you mention, the only long run goal is peace and not unnecessary weapons.

Indian Oil Corporation, is now the largest oil trading company in the Asia-pacific region, and this includes China and Japan!!!.Acc. to Forbes latest issue, Reliance industries is bigger than PepsiCo and Coke Incs.!!!.And, IOC, is but only one of the oil trading companies in India.It is only fitting that our armed forces reflect our corporate and national structure.Bigger and more powerful.India is now acquiring 400 T-90 tanks.Why worry about others and what they think??.We don`t need them as much as they may need us.Acc. to ``Pakistan This Week``, a weekly program on CNBC World, pakistan has approached indian officials to allow indian merchant naval vessels to use its` ports as a conduit for goods to north-western india , as pakistan ports are under utilized and pakistan does not have the funds or merchant navy to fully utilize their port facilities.Currently 65 % of Singapore and Colombo` s port revenues are from acting as a conduit for cargo to mainland India.

HisExcellency,
``This monumental blunder cost America considerable leverage with Pakistan. ``
What leverage has the USA lost in Pakistan? Pakistan even today cannot move an inch without american approval. You got even your nuclear weapons because america chose to look the other way. Had USA put pressure on Pakistan to hand over Xerox Khan to Netherlands when he ran from there, Pakistan would have quietly handed him over.

#115 by taqat-e-parvaaz

[yes pakistan made some mistakes in 1971, but so did india. was there a report there?]

Here is an excerpt from the Hamoodur Rahman report.

``This became necessary in view of the vehement assertions made before the Commission by a large number of respectable witnesses drawn from various sections of society, including highly placed and responsible Service Officers, to the effect that due to corruption arising out of the performance of Martial Law duties, lust for wine and women and greed for lands and houses, a large number of senior Army Officers, particularly those occupying the highest positions, had not only lost the will to fight but also the professional competence necessary for taking the vital and critical decisions demanded of them for the successful prosecution of the war. It was asserted by these witnesses that men given to a disreputable way of life could hardly be expected to lead the Pakistan Army to victory.``

No wonder the Indian Army has beaten the pulp out of your Army every time there was a war. Stick it in your pipe and smoke it, dumbass!

#115 by taqat-e-parvaaz

[but theres no mistakes about kargil and that pakistan army commandos were butt raping skinny indian soldiers.]

Is that why Paki soldiers fled Kargil leaving behind the dead bodies of their fallen colleagues? Postmortem reports revealed that these soldiers had been eating grass because their supply lines had been cut off by the booming Bofors guns. And yeah, these guys didn`t get even veggie samosas to eat. Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Looks like your ass got badly whooped, because you chose to ignore the piece says Pakistan had procured a discarded satellite and Musharraf proudly claimed that Pakistan was ahead of India in space technology. I`m sure all the beef has reduced the Paki`s brains to a piece of beef, which is why you guys couldn`t build a decent satellite while India launched its first satellite in 1981.

and finally, despite the below mentioned incident, the magnamity of the pakistani players and the pakistani nation....



Pak players visit cancer hospital, donate money

From our correspondent

JAMSHEDPUR: Pakistan captain Inzamam-ul-Haq and his teammates visited the Tata Cancer Hospital in Jamshedpur on Thursday and ended up feeling that there were so many more important things in life to deal with than the game of cricket.

``You go and meet these cancer stricken children and you wonder why all this fuss about a cricket series when there are so many other more important issues facing humanity, like finding a permanent cure for something tragic like cancer,`` Inzamam said in a pensive mood after the hour-long visit.

But for the young boys and girls in the children’s ward, just meeting the Pakistani cricketers was a dream come true for them and cheered them up for the day.

Inzamam was visibly moved when he was introduced to a five-year-old child who has been given 20 more days to live after suffering from blood cancer.

But the 14-year old Ismail also suffering from the same disease would not let go of Inzamam’s arm during a round of the hospital. ``Uncle, aap ko ghussa nahin karna chahiye,`` was the advice he gave to his hero whom he watched in quite a rage after geting run out in the second one-dayer in Visakhapatnam.

As the doctors and nurses taking the Pakistani cricketers around explained the various diseases and terminal illnesses afflicting the young children and older people, a number of the Pakistani players were clearly emotional and felt depressed.

``So innocent and vulnerable. It just makes you pray again and again and thank God for his blessings,`` wondered Danish Kaneria said after meeting with a 21-year-old girl who is in the early stages of throat cancer.

Shahid Afridi proved a favourite with most of the patients and he cheered things up when he recalled some funny incidents from his career for the benefit of the avid listeners.

Shahid, whose father himself is very ill and bed ridden, said visiting the hospital was the nicest thing the team could have done in India.

Inzamam, before leaving, had a quick impromptu meeting with some of his players and then announced a donation of Rs 100,000 for the hospital.

#111

Instead of crowing like an idiot, if I were you I would be scared shitless. What you are looking at is an Army that has the courage to critically examine itself and admit to its flaws. This happened during Kargil. They have gone and overhauled the entire set-up there that is why they are discussing this in public.

Contrast that with the ``Pure`` army. They do not have the balls to conduct an review off what happened in Kargil. They supressed the Hamdoor Rehman report on 1971 war till India Today leaked it out. They still brainwash nincompoops like you that Kargil was done by Jihadis and Bangladesh holocaust never happened. You guys actually won all the wars with India including 1971

Re: # 113
when an army gets as whooped as it did, its quite expected that it would conduct an investigation over what happened. no one in pakistan is brainwashed as to what happened in kargil. yes pakistan made some mistakes in 1971, but so did india. was there a report there? why did india intrude in a personal matter? but theres no mistakes about kargil and that pakistan army commandos were butt raping skinny indian soldiers. no one denies this. :P

and yes, here`s a piece that exemplifies impeccable indian character and hospitality. the indian mind at work. i would guess some shiv sena fundo/RSS gaywad did this....



Fan held for hurling stone at Pakistan team bus


JAMSHEDPUR, April 7: An Indian cricket fan has been arrested for throwing a stone at the Pakistani cricket team bus, shattering a window and narrowly missing captain Inzamamul Haq, an official said on Thursday.

The incident occurred on Wednesday afternoon after the Indian and Pakistani teams arrived at Ranchi airport on their way to Jamshedpur, where the third One-day International will be played on Saturday.

As the Pakistan team bus left the airport, a stone was hurled from the roadside where thousands had gathered to catch a glimpse of the cricketers, according to Pakistan team manager Salim Altaf.

``The stone broke the window pane and just missed Inzamam who was sitting nearby,`` Altaf said. ``I believe the man responsible has been arrested.`` Pakistan cancelled a scheduled practice session in Jamshedpur on Wednesday evening because of the incident, Altaf said.

``The boys were a bit shaken so Inzamam asked the team to take the rest of the day off,`` he said. ``I would like to believe it was a stray incident and we have not asked for any extra security. We would prefer to forget it and get on with the game.``

Pakistan trail 0-2 in the six-match one-day series after India won the opening two games in Cochin and Visakhapatnam. Pakistan`s first tour of India since 1999, which began on Feb 28, had gone off peacefully till Wednesday`s stone-throwing incident. -AFP

# 109

Not only are you pathetically ignorant, but it also appears that you are new to chowk. Check this archives...search for ``Satellite`` and read the article called ``ONLY 5 Million``

I urge you to wear some padding next time. Kicking your ass is too easy...

Re: # 112
heres a kick in your ass. i hope pimples dont form like they have in your fellow countrymens shri harish and shri arjuns. the second story appeared on MSNBC. i`ve added the first one just for good measure. shows what a chronic inferiority complex there is in bhindu land. veggie samosa? :P





Pakistani balloon causes panic in Himachal

Chamba: A Pakistani balloon found near village Chask Bhatori in Pangi tribal valley of Chamba district in Himachal Pradesh, adjoining Jammu and Kashmir`s Doda district, has caused surprise and panic.

The balloon, inscribed with slogans such as `Pak fauj ko slaam`, `Pak Zindabad` and `Dil Pakistan`, was discovered by villagers on Monday, who immediately informed police officials at Killar police station, the valley headquarters.

The balloon, measuring about two-and-a-half feet in diameter, was later kept in police custody.

Police sources said it appeared to be one of the balloons flown in the air by the Pakistan government on the occasion of their Independence Day on August 14.


As far as the microsatellites are concerned, I have something else to spank you with:


http://home.datawest.net/dawog/Space/e20010430secret_empire%20(space%20threat).htm

MSNBC.com
April 28, 2001

The Secret Empire: The U.S. Military In The 21st Century

The Threat Over The Horizon
Military cites 1998 failure of satellite as an omen

By Jonathan Broder, Special to MSNBC.com

WASHINGTON — How damaging would a concerted attack on American satellite systems be? Pentagon officials cite the 1998 malfunction of the Galaxy IV satellite, which shut down 80 percent of pagers in the United States, as an example of the disruptions that could follow an attack. The episode was deemed an accident. China, however, made it known that future malfunctions might not be accidental.

``FOR COUNTRIES that could never win a war by using the methods of tanks and planes, attacking the U.S. space system may be an irresistible and most tempting choice,`` said a report in the state-run Xinhua News Agency days after the malfunction.

Along with pager systems, the Galaxy IV failure also disrupted cable and broadcast video feeds, credit card authorization networks and corporate communications systems for weeks.

As things currently stand, satellites the military relies on are no less vulnerable than Galaxy IV.

In January, a two-year study by a panel of generals and civilian defense experts, including Donald Rumsfeld, the man who would become secretary of defense, laid out a host of emerging threats to U.S. satellites:

*Attacks on satellite ground stations: Such assaults could range from a physical attack on stations to computer hackers breaking into the networks that direct the satellites and receive their transmissions.

*Denial and deception: With the means to counter military space systems increasingly available on the international market, countries can foil reconnaissance satellites by learning their orbital and sensor characteristics and then hiding or disguising targets when the satellites fly over.

*Jamming: Many countries, including Russia, China, Iraq, North Korea, Iran and Cuba, possess electronic jamming capabilities to disrupt satellite operations. Pentagon officials say the chances of such capability falling into the hands of terrorist groups or individuals has increased with the miniaturization of jamming devices. Russia now markets a hand-held system the size of a cigarette packet that can jam Global Positioning Satellite transmissions for 50 miles. A slightly larger version can block transmissions for 160 miles. Both could be used not only against U.S. ground forces but also against aircraft.

*Ground lasers: Directed at an orbiting satellite, these high-energy beams can be projected into space to dazzle or blind a satellite’s sensors and cameras. Some U.S. military satellites are equipped with shutters to guard against laser attack, but many are defenseless, the report said.

*Microsatellites and nanosatellites: With the miniaturization of space system technologies, these small satellites range between 200 and 20 pounds and even come in sizes as small as a compact disc player. Highly maneuverable and packed with super-sophisticated electronics, they can zoom up beside other satellites, inspect them with cameras and transmit images back to Earth.

Weaponized microsatellites loaded with rockets or lasers are expected to emerge in the coming years, capable of disrupting, disabling or destroying enemy satellites. Among the countries that possess microsatellite technology are the United States, Russia, China, Israel and Pakistan.

*Nuclear detonation: The explosion of even a small nuclear device in space would destroy or damage nearby satellites and leave lingering radiation that would halt new satellite operations for months. Pentagon officials say all that is needed for an attack like this is a rocket and simple nuclear device. Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Israel and Pakistan, along with the five declared nuclear states, already have missiles that can reach the necessary altitudes, and either possess or are believed to be developing nuclear weapons.

New Technologies

Some technologies to protect U.S. satellites from attack already exist, as a result of SDI research. The most basic is a two-stage missile that is launched from a high-flying F-15 fighter jet and homes in on enemy satellites that are threatening American spacecraft.

Many U.S. military satellites also have been ``hardened`` to protect components against radiation damage from nuclear explosions in space and outfitted with ``stealth`` technology to reduce their radar profiles. Others carry anti-jamming electronics and shutters to deflect enemy lasers. Sensitive surveillance equipment also has been placed on a number of non-military satellites in an effort to diversify and hide intelligence-gathering capability.

New technological efforts involve the development of advanced sensors and methods of propulsion that would enable American satellites to detect and evade pursuing killer satellites. In a strange hybrid of 19th and 21st century technologies, one space firm is experimenting with a satellite propulsion system that runs on steam.

But research is not only confined to purely defensive countermeasures. Next month, in what could be a major advance for space-based offensive weapons, NASA engineers at Dryden Flight Research Center in Edwards, Calif., will test a revolutionary unmanned aerial vehicle that someday may orbit the Earth and, upon command, strike targets elsewhere in space or anywhere on the globe.

Called the Hyper-X, the aerial vehicle has been described by Army sources as a cross between a ballistic missile and cruise missile. Equipped with stealth technology, the Hyper-X uses a new kind of air-breathing jet engine that produces speeds of up to Mach 10, or 7,200 mph at sea level, NASA says. At such hypersonic speeds, the Hyper-X could not be intercepted.

Loaded with a conventional warhead, the Hyper-X also would fall outside the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, which bans the deployment of nuclear weapons in space. In its first round of tests, the Hyper-X will be dropped from the wing of a high-flying B-52 bomber. But NASA officials say the new engine technology, known as scramjet — or supersonic combustion ramjets — eventually could open the way for a new generation of reusable space planes that can take off and land like conventional aircraft. In space, such spacecraft also could be used for anti-satellite operation.

eat your words.....
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/SSC/CSER/UOSAT/press/Surrey.html
Located in new purpose-built premises, the Surrey Space Centre, with 130 staff and postgraduate research students, houses state-of-the-art satellite research and construction facilities. The facility’s Mission Operations Centre contains a fully automated satellite tracking and data collection system, currently responsible for nine microsatellites in low-Earth orbit.

Training foreign engineers through its Technology Transfer Programme, the Centre will continue to build on its successes with Korea, Portugal, Pakistan, Chile, South Africa, Thailand, Singapore and Malaysia. Through a unique combination of academic and commercial activity, Surrey provide intensive and in depth programmes at relatively low cost and risk, enabling emerging countries to take their first steps into space.

more to feast your eyes....hahahaaaaaa

Indian army confesses to over-estimating N-prowess

By Jawed Naqvi


NEW DELHI, Feb 22: The Indian army had falsely believed that its new found nuclear prowess would guarantee perpetual peace with Pakistan, the army`s newly released secret assessment of the Kargil fiasco says, according to excerpts published in the Outlook magazine on Monday.

In its cover story headlined ``War Against Error,`` the magazine says that the Indian army ``was shocked and awed by the Kargil war.`` Five years later, the army`s internal report lists the blunders it made, and steps to avert them in the future.

``The battle fought on the icy heights of Kargil between May and July 1999 is one that will not be easily forgotten by India,`` the magazine says. ``Five years after a war in which 474 officers and men lost their lives, there has been much introspection in the country`s security establishment on what went right, and what went wrong, in Operation Vijay.``

The peace process, kicked off by the Lahore bus ride of Prime Minister Vajpayee, and the fact that both India and Pakistan had gone ``overtly nuclear`` led the army top brass to believe that war was a distant possibility,`` the army assessment admits.

The assessment also recognises another factor ``that caused much heartburn within the army`s higher echelons`` - the fact that there were no inputs from the Research & Analysis Wing (RAW) spy agency.

The decision to take a dispassionate look at the war and to record its history and disseminate it among top generals of the army was taken two years ago when General N.C. Vij took over as the army chief. He had witnessed the conduct of the war at close quarters as the Director-General of Military Operations (DGMO).

Gen Vij decided to put together an internal assessment documenting crucial lessons from that war, culled mostly from top-secret operational notes with the military operations directorate. Such an assessment, it was felt, would help the army`s senior commanders to learn ``valuable lessons of the art of war`` --a war that was fought in recent times and won, albeit after paying a heavy price.

The self-assessment made the army take a hard look at the many blunders that were committed during the Kargil operations - the critical failures, which happened at various levels.

wait, wait.....my favorite part...........hahahahaa


``Senior commanders failed to deliver, the intelligence setup proved ineffective, battalions were led by people too old to climb razor-edge peaks in sub-zero climes (HAHAHAHAHAA), rifles that were introduced midway through the war created problems and the delay in deploying air power during the conflict prolonged the war,`` the report says.

Romair#103:

People more qualified than me have entered into the type of discussion you want to have. But I do agree with one of your statements:
``If India wants to be a leader, it needs to be the elder brother, not the big brother.``
I believe the former Indian PM Gujral tried to be exactly that. However, for that to happen, Pakistan too has to change its mindset. It would have to accept itself in the same role that Canada does in North America. At one time, Canada too had unfriendly relations with the US. Now, any Canadian politician, let alone military leader, who thinks of developing a credible deterrent against the US would be sent to a mental asylum. No Canadian leader would think of stating every second day that peace with the US is not possible unless the core issues are resolved. No Canadian leader would hide US`s worst mafia leaders, let them give interviews to media and then deny their presence. The only permanent security for Pakistan lies in its accepting a Canada-type status and, yes, for that to happen, India should adopt the so-called Gujral doctrine.

You could validly argue that India is not as strong vis-a-vis Pakistan as the US is vis-a-vis Canada. If so, that would be an argument for India to aquire arms at an even greater speed than it is doing now.

#101 by tahmed32

At best this is a necessary evil (i.e. in case of the US which must strengthen its military alliances with Pakistan and India in order to meet the emerging Chinese threat), and at worst it is a vainglorious attempt by an undemocratic regime to project military power

America has learnt its lessons from the 1990s when US naively imposed nuclear sanctions on Pakistan. This monumental blunder cost America considerable leverage with Pakistan. And for what benefit? Pakistan still continued its nuclear program relentlessly. And this nuclear program was India-specific, not meant to be used against US or Israel. The F-16s sale [and the US silence over A.Q.Khan scandal] are just indications that US wants to develop a long-term relationship with Pakistan.

However, I disagree with your comments about Pakistani perspective. I don`t believe this sale is a ``vaingl