F-16s to Pakistan—Why Now?

Re: # 50

actually, thats not true. do not underestimate pakistan, ever. first of all, pakistan has been producing sophisticated weapons and electronic components now for several years. dont think that because india has gotten `ahead` pakistan has fallen behind. lest i remind you that its `mighty` india that has yet to produce a successful tank. its last project, the arjun, has been a bumbling disaster, where taxpayers money was flushed down the toilet. pakistans latest MBT, the al-khalid, has been hailed and is widely respected. anyone can look this up. there is already talk of an al-khalid 2 in pakistani defence circles. as was mentioned, pakistan has been producing things at Air Weapons Complex that is usually produced in industrialized western nations. the US recently contracted with pakistan to purchase UAV, unmanned aerial vehicles for its border security. in addition, pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that has the ability to produce nano technology and micro technology. heres a small snippet for proof:

http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/overhorizon.htm
Microsatellites and nanosatellites: With the miniaturization of space system technologies, these small satellites range between 200 and 20 pounds and even come in sizes as small as a compact disc player. Highly maneuverable and packed with super-sophisticated electronics, they can zoom up beside other satellites, inspect them with cameras and transmit images back to Earth.

Weaponized microsatellites loaded with rockets or lasers are expected to emerge in the coming years, capable of disrupting, disabling or destroying enemy satellites. Among the countries that possess microsatellite technology are the United States, Russia, China, Israel and Pakistan.


as for the private sector, pakistan has recently entered the age of semiconductor technology. for proof, visit the website of the pakistani owned US based company Palmchip, which has recently launched operations in pakistan. heres the proof of that: http://www.palmchip.com/press_Release_Detail.asp?id=36

pakistan CAN manufacture whatever it wants! stick that in your pipe and smoke it biatch, bbabu!

#81 by taqat-e-parvaaz

Is that why Musharraf procured a discarded satellite and claimed Pakistan had raced ahead of India in space technology? Ha! Ha! Ha!

I choose `the automobile sector`, `cause it has long been considered a luxury in this part of the world, to demonstrate that we indians needn`t worry what the pak`s or anyone else thinks.We are far , far ahead of the game.The following clips will show that if this is what is happening in the auto sector in India, let all non indians just be in awe about the rest of the indian economy.We just need to believe in ourselves and keep on moving ahead.

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Tata Motors March sales up 28%

PTI[ THURSDAY, APRIL 07, 2005 12:00:41 PM]
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MUMBAI: India`s biggest car and bus/truck maker, Tata Motors Ltd, said on Thursday total vehicle sales in March rose 28 per cent to 44,433 units from a year ago. Details are awaited.

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Maruti clocks record sales in `04-05, M800 skids 31%

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, APRIL 05, 2005 05:43:09 AM]
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Spring seems to be the season of records. Car market leader Maruti clocked 54,613 units in March, including 3,920 units of exports. This is the highest monthly sales by the carmaker. Maruti sold 536,301 units in fiscal 2004-05, its highest annual sales in the last two decades.

The fiscal sales include exports of 48,899 units, and is up 13.6% over last fisc’s tally of 472,122 units. Maruti also surged ahead with combined sales in the B and C segments. In the Alto-WagonR-Zen segment it was up 47% in March and 54% for the year. In the Esteem-Baleno segment it was up 141% in March and 109% for the entire fisc. It’s bread and butter A segment though was down 34% in March and nearly 31% through the year.

Arch rival Hyundai, too, has recorded its highest cumulative sales of 23,669 units in March, up 23.2% over the same month last year. In the domestic market, Hyundai clocked 16,315 units, up 18.3% over March `04. The company`s exports for the month stood at 7,354 units. Its fiscal tally of 224,243 cars was up 30% over the previous year. Its exports were up 95% this fisc at 82,093 units. In the domestic market, Hyundai sold 142,150 cars in 2004-05, a growth of 9.5%.

General Motors sold 3,516 cars in March, its highest monthly volume. Compared to last March, this tally is up 35%. The March pickings included 1,905 units of the Tavera, 1,101 units of the Optra and 506 units of the Corsa. The Tavera clocked its highest monthly sales since launch.

Vehicle maker M&M clocked 10,710 units in March compared to 9,027 units last year. Its total domestic sales (including LCV and three-wheelers) is up 22% at 14,025 units. Including exports, the total tally is up 24% at 14,629 units. Scorpio sales, including exports, were up from 1,834 units in last March to 2,332 units this time round.

Other vehiclemakers too did well this March. Eicher Motors registered a 48% growth in commercial vehicle sales in the domestic market during the financial year with sales of 21,709 vehicles compared to 14,665 in the previous year. Overall sales, including exports, during the year were up 45% at 23,004 units.

Sales in the domestic market in March at 3,217 vehicles were also 48% higher than 2,176 vehicles sold last March. Overall sales in March 2005, including exports, were up 45% at 3,439 units from 2,377 units last year.

source:http://www1.economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1068893,curpg-2.cms

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List of automotive companies manufacturing cars in india:

http://www.autoindex.org/makelist.plt?cntr=32&letter=All

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Check out Tata`s new SUV concept at the 2005 Geneva auto show:

http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/motorshow/2005-geneva/gallery10_page_5.html

Cheers!!

#81 by taqat-e-parvaaz on April 6, 2005 11:15pm PT


actually, thats not true. do not underestimate pakistan, ever. first of all, pakistan has been producing sophisticated weapons and electronic components now for several years.


mmmkay...renting a satellite, a beat up one at that, doesn`t make pakiland a producer of satellites any more than my renting a buick at hertz makes me a manufacturer of automobiles...



pakistans latest MBT, the al-khalid, has been hailed and is widely respected. anyone can look this up. there is already talk of an al-khalid 2 in pakistani defence circles.


mmmkay...russian tank, ukranian engine and cup holders made in pakiland...


in addition, pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that has the ability to produce nano technology and micro technology. heres a small snippet for proof:

http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/overhorizon.htm


first of all, you`ll need a more credible source...second of all, pakiland doesn`t have the capability to launch a satellite...Highly maneuverable and packed with super-sophisticated electronics don`t mean squat if you can`t get the thing off the ground...maybe you can tie it to a kite and try to launch it in basant...

lookie here...Pakiland`s latest satellite launch vehicle...




as for the private sector, pakistan has recently entered the age of semiconductor technology.


oooh...you made and OR gate....damn...you`re so advanced...wait till pakiland manufactures AND gates...there`s no stopping pakiland...what`ll they come up with next...op-amps?

re:this article
The author is right in saying that F16 being given to Pak is not going to be of much use to that country. The relationship between India and Pak has never been better. This has reduced (though not eliminated) the chance of a war. So, why F16 now?
This has a lot to do with, as Ballukhan said, lobbying in USA. the Aircraft industry in US needs huge orders to keep its workforce busy. Pak had been craving for F16 and made it a ``prestige issue``. So, USA is doing the right thing but at the wrong time!
US might have expected a bigger order from India when it offered more sophisticated version of the aircraft and coproduction. India, from what i have read, is wary of US politicians putting an embargo when it suits them. They have done it to their most servile client state viz Pakistan, so they can do it to anybody.
Some in the US strategic think tank are seeing India as an ally against China. This may be premature. Chinese premier is visiting India and the trade is going to go upwards. Chinese are looking forward to a good relationship with India. So, what gives?
Chinese want peaceful borders in order to concentrate on economic development. They have a long way to go to catch up with the West (especially US). They are not afraid of India though they have started to notice India`s rising status recently.
US, by propping up India militarily and economically, hopes to heat up the race. India has shown ambition to become a world power and US may want to exploit this. A direct confrontation between India and China is of interest to US.
Asia is where the action is going to be in future. As both China and India move towards greater economic progress, it remains to be seen how this game of world politics plays out and who is the winner.
As Sherlock Holmes would say to Dr Watson: The game is afoot!
Sridhar

re:#57 by CoolAL
Romair is an idiot who keeps rambling the same nonsense again and again. IT all flows from deep inbuilt prejudices and hatred against Indians, something he developed during his stint with the Pak Army.
Sridhar

re:#70 by Urstruly
``The common sense, however, tells hindu baniya that even if he is given American technology and manufacturing liscences he would still need oil to support its economy.``
Hindu Bania may have learnt that a better option is to be self reliant in Energy. If India can get the technology from US to utilise Thorium in Nuclear reactors to harness energy, that will make India self-sufficient.
Kerala has abundant of thorium deposits. Depending on Islamic despotic regimes (which is what Iran and Pak) are for oil is nonsensical. These countries can turn the tap off and on at will.
Sridhar

re: tahmed`s post
``Pakistan is happy because it has (once again) countered Indian attempts at extending its military reach.``
Really!
Just because China helped Pak build a base in Gwadar?
So, let us see, who is footing the bill for Pak`s bluewater navy in future? Certainly not Uncle Sam, for he does not gain.
China gains if Pak has a stronger Navy so China can influence the Indian Ocean area by proxy. This is where the real danger for Pak is. It is getting caught between the big powers, a pawn so to speak.
Surely, u should know by now that Pak is not in the same league as India, just like India is not in the same league as China.
Sridhar

dost-mittar #74: ``Why these two countries would so eagerly fall into this trap, where an outsider is taking advantage of their mutual hostility to line its own pockets is the real question?``

The answer to this is simple: India has gone on a massive buying spree of weapons, over the past decade. Most of which threaten only Pakistan. This is despite the fact that India already had a 3-1 advantage over Pakistan. It is now 5-1.

Pakistan has kept its defense budget constant at approximately 3 billion dollars for quite a few years. In the meanwhile, India has turned into the biggest importer of arms in the world.

The situation is (was) reaching a point where Pakistan would have no conventional defense against India. This would result in an immediate nuclear war. Which is why Pakistan is now forced to enhance some of its conventional forces.

The solution to this problem is simple. A freezing of defense budgets (which Pakistan has done). And a reduction of the Indian defense budget back to a 3-1 ratio. Until that happens, any country - be it France, USA, etc. - will be able to sell weapons to both sides, because one side (India) will always be willing to buy them..........Forcing the other side to buy some, also.....

Infact, the biggest beneficiary of aircraft sales to India and Pakistan, by far, is France. Not USA.............Unfortunately, one rarely hears of any criticism, in India, of India`s fast rising defense budget. I believe you, yourself, support this rise...........One cannot support the rise, and then state, ``outsider is taking advantage of their mutual hostility to line its own pockets.``

taqat-e-parvaaz #81

`` actually, thats not true. do not underestimate pakistan, ever. first of all, pakistan has been producing sophisticated weapons and electronic components now for several years. dont think that because india has gotten `ahead` pakistan has fallen behind. lest i remind you that its `mighty` india that has yet to produce a successful tank. its last project, the arjun, has been a bumbling disaster, where taxpayers money was flushed down the toilet. pakistans latest MBT, the al-khalid, has been hailed and is widely respected. anyone can look this up. there is already talk of an al-khalid 2 in pakistani defence circles. as was mentioned, pakistan has been producing things at Air Weapons Complex that is usually produced in industrialized western nations. the US recently contracted with pakistan to purchase UAV, unmanned aerial vehicles for its border security. in addition, pakistan is one of the few countries in the world that has the ability to produce nano technology and micro technology. heres a small snippet for proof: ``

Your Al-Khalid is a T-72 tank. India has 1500 of those in its inventory.


`` http://cndyorks.gn.apc.org/yspace/articles/overhorizon.htm
Microsatellites and nanosatellites: With the miniaturization of space system technologies, these small satellites range between 200 and 20 pounds and even come in sizes as small as a compact disc player. Highly maneuverable and packed with super-sophisticated electronics, they can zoom up beside other satellites, inspect them with cameras and transmit images back to Earth.

Weaponized microsatellites loaded with rockets or lasers are expected to emerge in the coming years, capable of disrupting, disabling or destroying enemy satellites. Among the countries that possess microsatellite technology are the United States, Russia, China, Israel and Pakistan. ``

Duh !!!

`` as for the private sector, pakistan has recently entered the age of semiconductor technology. for proof, visit the website of the pakistani owned US based company Palmchip, which has recently launched operations in pakistan. heres the proof of that: http://www.palmchip.com/press_Release_Detail.asp?id=36

pakistan CAN manufacture whatever it wants! stick that in your pipe and smoke it biatch, bbabu! ``

Nowhere in the website they claim to manufacture electronic components in Pakistan.
The company is based in San Jose.

There are at least 10,000 IC designers in Bangalore alone. It does not mean India can manufacture those ICs.

If Pakistan can manufacture whatever it wants you shouldn`t be begging USA and China.

rshridar,
You are right on the dot about what India needs to do, but about China-Pak, I think Pakistan would not even have a blue water navy had it not been for China. Let`s face it, this talk about Ind-Pak helping each other out is plain nonsense. Pakistan cannot help India become a regional power, and India cannot help Pakistan have a bigger reach as much as China can.

Romair:

I believe that Pakistan has every right to purchase any weapons it wants and can afford, as does India. India spends 2.3% of its GDP on Defense which is not considered excessive by any means. I think even Canada does not spend much less, and we have no enemies at all.

You are doing exactly what I want Indians and Pakistanis to get away from - in other words seeing India as your enemy and your security in being able to have some sort of balance of arms between the two countries. I am almost certain that even if the Kashmir issue is resolved tomorrow through some miracle and both countries have a free trade agreement with borders like between Canada and the US (although that too is changing), India still will continue to spend 2-3% of its GDP on defense. This is because India`s defense is not exclusively meant to defend itself against Pakistan.

I really would like the strategic thinkers (not the politicians) to think of a future where Pakistan sees a strong India as a protection for itself and India asks Pakistan to increase its defense expenditure to assume its ``fair share`` of the subcontinental defense, just as the US keeps bugging Canada to do so for North American defense.

#85 by rsridhar on April 7, 2005 7:25am PT


The author is right in saying that F16 being given to Pak is not going to be of much use to that country.


It`s like a impotent man being given viagara and then dropped on a deserted island....can`t do anything but jerk off...

I think it`s dawning on the pakis that the F-16s are for coming on board the new world order...where India keeps Indian Kashmir and Pakistan keeps Paki kashmir and nobody rocks uncle sam`s boat(which is actually a destroyer headed towards china).....

To Romair........

Economics experts and various studies conducted across the globe envisage India and China to rule the world in the 21st century. For over a century the United States has been the largest economy in the world but major developments have taken place in the world economy since then, leading to the shift of focus from the US and the rich countries of Europe to the two Asian giants- India and China.

The rich countries of Europe have seen the greatest decline in global GDP share by 4.9 percentage points, followed by the US and Japan with a decline of about 1 percentage point each. Within Asia, the rising share of China and India has more than made up the declining global share of Japan since 1990. During the seventies and the eighties, ASEAN countries and during the eighties South Korea, along with China and India, contributed to the rising share of Asia in world GDP.

According to some experts, the share of the US in world GDP is expected to fall (from 21 per cent to 18 per cent) and that of India to rise (from 6 per cent to 11 per cent in 2025), and hence the latter will emerge as the third pole in the global economy after the US and China.

By 2025 the Indian economy is projected to be about 60 per cent the size of the US economy. The transformation into a tri-polar economy will be complete by 2035, with the Indian economy only a little smaller than the US economy but larger than that of Western Europe. By 2035, India is likely to be a larger growth driver than the six largest countries in the EU, though its impact will be a little over half that of the US.

ref:http://www.economywatch.com/indianeconomy/indian-economy-overview.html

Romair, much as it may eat your innards away, face it.We indians have earned our rightful position and we can only get better, not worse, `cause that was our starting position.We are as a country larger than western europe.All this is inspite of hostile and jealous neighbours who just cannot fathom our well being.In 2004 our PPP GDP was $3.564 trillion, actual GDP of $650 billion plus.I don`t understand all these figures that much, but i know that we got the money to fortify ourselves and we are free to spend it as we like `cause we bloody well earned it.Who cares what you guys or anyone else thinks or whines about.

Romair #89

`` Pakistan has kept its defense budget constant at approximately 3 billion dollars for quite a few years. In the meanwhile, India has turned into the biggest importer of arms in the world. ``

The 3 billion dollar figure is bogus. It does not account for land grabbing the Pakistani Army does at the expense of civillian population.

`` The situation is (was) reaching a point where Pakistan would have no conventional defense against India. This would result in an immediate nuclear war. Which is why Pakistan is now forced to enhance some of its conventional forces. ``

Having 550,000 personnel on your payroll and not being able to wage a conventional war is pathetic.

`` The solution to this problem is simple. A freezing of defense budgets (which Pakistan has done). And a reduction of the Indian defense budget back to a 3-1 ratio. Until that happens, any country - be it France, USA, etc. - will be able to sell weapons to both sides, because one side (India) will always be willing to buy them..........Forcing the other side to buy some, also..... ``

Why should India freeze its budget ? Why shouldn`t India invest in anti-ballistic missile defenses ?

`` Infact, the biggest beneficiary of aircraft sales to India and Pakistan, by far, is France. Not USA.............Unfortunately, one rarely hears of any criticism, in India, of India`s fast rising defense budget. I believe you, yourself, support this rise...........One cannot support the rise, and then state, ``outsider is taking advantage of their mutual hostility to line its own pockets.````

France has sold 70 Mirage-2000s to India. That includes 40 plus aircraft delivered in the 1980s. France is the third largest weapons supplier to India after Russia and Israel.

Pakistan has bought minesweepers, submarines and old Mirages from France. France is the second most weapon supplier to Pakistan.

Faruk #69

`` Please don’t quarrel about the insignificant. We have to work hard to enrich the white man :)``

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