F-16s to Pakistan—Why Now?

HisExcellency #108

`` At best this is a necessary evil (i.e. in case of the US which must strengthen its military alliances with Pakistan and India in order to meet the emerging Chinese threat), and at worst it is a vainglorious attempt by an undemocratic regime to project military power ``

The primary Chinese threat is economic. Pakistan would be of marginal importance for both USA and China in economic matters.

`` America has learnt its lessons from the 1990s when US naively imposed nuclear sanctions on Pakistan. This monumental blunder cost America considerable leverage with Pakistan. And for what benefit? Pakistan still continued its nuclear program relentlessly. And this nuclear program was India-specific, not meant to be used against US or Israel. The F-16s sale [and the US silence over A.Q.Khan scandal] are just indications that US wants to develop a long-term relationship with Pakistan. ``

Here we go again.

What were US nuclear sanctions on pakistan in 1990 ?

1. Weapons embargo - F-16 spares parts. There are alternative suppliers for other military equipment like China and France

It is not like USA was selling weapons to India during the 1990s either. While Pakistani military was hurt by the Pressler amendment Indian military was suffering from financial problems and collapse in the Indo-Soviet weapons agreements.

2. $$$ - Given US budget deficit do not expect any goodies. Aid to Israel has falled in real terms over the years.

USA never cut off diplomatic relations, never cut off trade relations. USA buys 25% of your textile exports.

This whole hoopla over sanctions is something manufactured by the Pakistani establishment.

`` Pakistan`s economic situation is now qualitatively better than 1999. We can now afford these fighter jets `without eating grass`, affecting the various economic development programmes in progress or giving up the JF-17 project. These jets are a long-term investment.``

You are still begging for debt forgiveness and debt relief.

#123 by stuka on April 8, 2005 8:46am PT


Taqat e Parvaz:

``no one in pakistan is brainwashed as to what happened in kargil.``


You need brains to be brainwashed...

t-e-p is probably in his teens...he doesn`t understand anything he`s pasting...check out the details of what he thinks is super-cool IC technology....

What part of ``no redrawing of borders`` isn`t clear to the pakis?

India keeps Indian Kashmir, Pakistan keeps paki Kashmir...china keeps the part it was gifted by Pakistan....

No redrawing maps, Natwar tells Pakistan

Staff Report

NEW DELHI: India has told Pakistan that it is open to all options that they offer except redrawing the map of India and having a second partition.

“Our views are quite clear. We are open to all options that they offer, except redrawing the map of India and having a second partition,” External Affairs Minister Natwar Singh told BBC World.

re: vivek # 125

Count me in on everything jingoistic, even if it is all dreamy. he he

All peoples must dream very big.

Re: # 131
yeah keep dreaming veggie samosa. man, a lack of protein really can screw up someones brain. i can believe you buffoons still believe the US wants to be your `strategic partner.` pakistan can match whatever india can throw at it. its only going to get worse from here on out. advanced F-16s, JF-17s armed with swedish data links, an italian radar and BVR missiles, not to mention the deadly chinese J-10, which the US navy has admitted is more potent than its own super hornet. go ahead, tell your bhangee government to buy F-16s and F-18s. you`ll be falling right into place.....

US offers to sell India advanced weaponry

We intend to redraw the strategic map of Indo-US relations, say top US officials g Natwar to visit Washington on 12th

By Iftikhar Gilani

NEW DELHI: The United States has offered India an assortment of advanced weapons to balance its decision to sell F-16 fighter aircrafts to Pakistan. The weaponry offered includes Patriot PaC II anti-missile systems, network-centric early warning and battlefield control and command systems.

During US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice’s visit here last month, the two sides agreed to consolidate defence and energy ties and conclude the second phase of the Next Step in Strategic Partnership (NSSP), which encompasses high technology trade.

“We intend to re-draw the strategic map of Indo-US relations,” said senior US Embassy officials, adding that the two countries would engage more closely in the coming weeks. External Affairs Minister Natwar Singh will visit Washington on April 12, which will be followed by US Pacific Command Commander-in-Chief Admiral William J Fallone’s first visit here.

A high-level US delegation visited India recently and made presentations about the Patriot PaC II systems to Indian defence officials, which was a follow-up of three Indian observers attending the missile shield system’s live demonstration trials in Texas, said officials.

The officials said US aviation majors Lockheed Martin and Boeing would bid for India’s plan to buy 126 multi-role combat aircraft and were hopeful of getting the contract. They said that US armed forces had proposed to give a new dimension to military-to-military engagements between the two countries by company-level joint exercises in California in June and taking these manoeuvres to battalion-level first and then to brigade-level by 2007.

Indian Air Force’s wish to engage in joint manoeuvres with F-16s and early warning aircraft would be realised soon, said US officials, referring to the planned joint exercises in November over the Kalaikunda base in West Bengal.

Asserting the US was committed to “serious energy dialogue” with India, including on civilian use of nuclear energy, the officials said this issue would be boosted with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Petroleum Minister Mani Shankar Aiyer’s upcoming visit to Washington. “India and US are both energy deficit countries and a close cooperation in this field is viewed by us as mutually advantageous,” they said.

Declaring that US viewed its strategic engagement with India in a global rather than regional context, US officials said an indication of this was that defence sales between the two countries had shot up to 200 million US dollars in 2002 from zero in 2000.

Deputy Chairman of the Planning Commission Montek Singh Ahluwalia and Foreign Secretary Shyam Saran will accompany Natwar on his visit.

His delegation includes Department of Atomic Energy’s Strategic Planning Group Director RB Grover, Indian Space Research Organisation Scientific Secretary V Sundararamaiah and External Affairs Ministry Joint Secretary (Americas) S Jaishankar.

yummmmmyyyy..........400 indian soldiers put of their shame for serving the indian army! they must be thanking pakistan now!! hahahaa.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1703495.stm


Coffin scandal rages in India
Protesters in Delhi demand resignation of Fernandes
Kashmir is a hugely sensitive issue in India
The Indian parliament was adjourned on Wednesday for the second day running as the opposition demanded the resignation of Defence Minister George Fernandes over an army coffin scandal.

Both houses of parliament were adjourned over the affair which centres on a report that the government paid vastly inflated sums for coffins for soldiers killed in Kashmir in 1999.


Nobody will forgive those involved for having purchased coffins that had to be subsequently rejected (HAHAHAHAHAAAA)

Indian state radio

Not only were the 500 aluminium coffins overpriced, but the US-based supplier failed to meet Indian specifications. (THATS WHAT YOU GET FOR TRUSTING YOUR `STRATEGIC PARTNER`)

Soldiers killed fighting separatists in Indian-administered Kashmir are regarded as martyrs by many Indians and opposition deputies shouted down the government with cries of ``coffin thieves``.

``Nobody will forgive those involved for having purchased coffins that had to be subsequently rejected,`` Indian state radio commented on Wednesday.

Mr Fernandes only returned as defence minister in October after being forced out of office over a scandal over weapons purchases.

He has refused to resign, saying he has asked the US company for a refund

Public anger

More than 400 Indian soldiers were killed in the 1999 conflict which began when Islamic militants infiltrated the Kargil sector of Kashmir from Pakistan.

A report in The Times of India newspaper says the Comptroller and Auditor General found that the government had paid an American company $2,500 for each of the 500 coffins.

Indian troops
The fighting in Kashmir continues with one militant reported killed on Wednesday
But five years earlier, it had only paid $172 per coffin.

Moreover, many of the coffins were never used, being rejected as too heavy.

``What is really shocking is that the coffins of the martyrs were bought at an exorbitant price,`` said the chief whip of the opposition Congress Party, Pryaranjan Dasmunshi.

``They have no right to stay in office, until the prime minister explains to the house.``

For Indian radio, the anger of opposition deputies was a genuine reflection of public feeling:

``The mood of the parliamentarians amply reflected the shock and anger faced by each and every Indian on these sordid revelations.``

Ministry`s reply

The Defence Ministry says it had to buy aluminium coffins so that the bodies of Indian soldiers could be sent home in a dignified manner.

It said that an order for 500 coffins was made with the company Buitron and Baize to be delivered in consignments.

When the first batch of coffins was delivered, it was discovered to be sub-standard and that led to the cancellation of the order for the remaining 350.

The Ministry of Defence says the company was in breach of contract and is asking for some of its money back.

#121 by tahmed32

``As long as a single child goes hungry in Pakistan, as long as a single sick person goes without medical treatment, it is contrary to the ``national interest`` for Pakistan to spend more than absolutely necessary for ensuring Pakistan`s defense``

You do have a point there. A significant segment of Pakistan intelligentsia subscribes to this view. But there is another significant counter-argument to your point: Governments are responsible for defense as well as education/health. Govt should spend most of its budget on infrastructure, mega projects, defense and debt servicing instead of crowding out private investment in education/health. Govt should regulate the education/health sectors and give tax incentives.

``As for the long run that you mention, the only long run goal is peace and not unnecessary weapons``

Sometimes weapons ensure peace and weakness encourages wars like 1971.

Re: # 136

funny coming from a bony veggie samosa eater as yourself. the problem with all you guys is that you`ve always underestimated pakistan. and quite frankly, once you do that, you`ve not only lost the battle, you`ve lost the war. you and your boyfriends vivek and shri arjun cannot stand the concept of a pakistan. it ruins your crazy hindutva policies of an `akhand bharat.` to pursue this dream, india will go to any lengths, even thinking itself a superpower capable of producing jet engines, all of which eventually fall out of the air like birdshit into the shit hole we all call india! so go ahead, make your lame attempts at urdu poetry.

#140
as i`ve already said, i am not sure who you think is deluded. its not pakistan that dreams itself a superpower when it has 300 million poor people lying naked on the streets of calcutta and bihar. its not pakistan that thinks it can produce tanks and then waste hundreds of millions of rupees in state taxes, and then stupidly try to make a jet engine for its pathetic LCA and nearly kill the pilot inside of it because the engine blew up!! perhaps you should buy a dictionary shri arjun and look up `deluded.` your george bush complex of using words you clearly do not know is not the best of ideas.

re: taqat-e-parvaaz
Poem:
``Taqat-e-parvaaz
akl-e-naasaaz
kar raha hai chok mein
behisaab bakwaas

Taqat-e-parvaaz
chor, luccha aur jaal-saaz
kameena-e-gaandu-e-gulzar
kar raha hai chowk mein
badtameezi behizaab``
My own feeble attempt at some Urdu poetry.
Guys, feel free to join in.
Sridhar

rshridhar,
Don`t waste your time and energy on a loony.

rshridhar,
t-e-p is one of the modern day Goebbels that Pakistan seems to have in significant numbers. Their philosophy is simple - bullshit a 1000 times, and ultimately they start believing their own crap.

#133 by taqat-e-parvaaz on April 8, 2005 9:56pm PT



you army couldnt even keep up! SSG commandos were so deep in your territory and were causing such heavy damage,


And the nazis were outside leningrad...what`s your point?

bottom line...India controls the Kargil heights...as it controls siachen...you don`t have squat...

you tried a reverse siachen and got your head handed to you...which is why nawaz rushed uninvited to DC, on the 4th of july....

only a dumb paki like you will believe that the PM of the country that was winning would make such a desperate plea...

keep chanting the slogan ``Kashmir banega Pakistan``....we`ll see if it does you any good....

#138 by vivek on April 9, 2005 10:15am PT



t-e-p is one of the modern day Goebbels that Pakistan seems to have in significant numbers


The idea of propaganda isn`t to fool youself....

conjuring up myths to keep the average paki would be propaganda....this is just self-delusion...it`s common among pakis, from the average jihadi like t-e-p to the prez/dictator...remember him telling abdul paki how pakiland was ahead of india in satellite technology because they rented a defective hughes satellite..that`s not propaganda...pakis actually believe that shit...just like captain clueless wasn`t BSing when he told everyone to wear a t-shirt with a paki flag if you wanted to be safe in the US post-9/11...he actually believes that....

Re: # 141
here you go crack smoker. i even did the math for you at the end there, since i know your protein deficient mind wouldnt be able to handle such large numbers.....

http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/816/

The UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (known as UNMOGIP) issued a press release on Tuesday Sep 16, 2003 calling on “the parties involved in the Kashmir issue to observe the “International Day of Peace” on September 21 and appeals to them to initiate a ceasefire and to do their best to prolong the duration of any cessation of hostilities for as long as possible. The conflict over Jammu and Kashmir has cost many lives, caused much tragedy and could, sadly, continue to affect the stability of the region for years to come. It is the UNMOGIP’s hope that the parties to the conflict will embrace this opportunity to lay down their arms and observe the International Day of Peace”, unquote. Coincidentally a senior US diplomat was visiting Srinagar when UNMOGIP issued this call, this combined to infuriate the Indians. On the other hand it gave heart to the freedom fighters within Kashmir that there was renewed western interest. Even though there has been far greater violence in Kashmir than in any other area in the world in the recent past, till Kargil came around in 1999 Kashmir was generally ignored by the western media, a benign neglect that glossed over decades of brutal Indian atrocities on the Kashmiri people. Kargil was a watershed that force-fed Kashmir back into international consciousness as well as media focus, the dispute is now seen by western powers as a major potential nuclear flashpoint.

The Indians have protested that UNMOGIP abused its authority by issuing their call and said they would take up the matter with the UN HQ in New York. For the record, UNMOGIP was set up in 1947-48 to monitor the Cease-Fire Line (CFL) that divided the opposing forces after the war that ensued when India occupied Kashmir by use of subterfuge and brute force. Elements of Kashmiri State and civil forces had combined with Pakistani irregulars to resist the blatant Indian occupation. India maintains that when the Line of Control (LOC) was delineated after the 1971 Indo-Pak War, the CFL ceased to exist and UNMOGIP became redundant. This is neither the understanding of either the UN HQ or of Pakistan, otherwise the Observer’s Group would have been wound up a long time ago. In addition the very name UNMOGIP suggests that it includes intervention on India – Pakistan issues. If India does not accept this, why was UNMOGIP created, as a coffee club? On the one hand India keeps claiming that infiltrators are crossing over to indulge in “cross-border terrorism”, on the other hand they refuse Pakistan requests to increase UNMOGIP surveillance by increasing the number of ground observers to stop the alleged infiltration, there has also been international suggestions for heliborne surveillance teams along the LOC.

It is no surprise that with its usual arrogance and obstinacy, India flatly rejected the UNMOGIP proposal. Though there were some reservations on the Pakistani side, in the greater interest of peace and tranquility in the region Pakistan’s reaction has been different. While maintaining that symbolic observance of the cease-fire has no virtually effect on the ground because of the obdurate Indian intransigence, Pakistan welcomed UNMOGIP proposal and said we would observe “International Peace Day” on Sep 21 in all sincerity. Look at the statistics for the period of one year since Sep 21, 2002, the last time the “International Peace Day” was observed. During this period of one year India has lobbed as many as 80000 artillery shells and 120000 mortar rounds into Azad Kashmir. The casualties on our side of the LOC have been heavy, other than uniformed personnel, 127 civilians have been killed and 499 wounded, a overwhelming number of these are children, the primary target of Indian attacks. There have been more than 200 violations by aerial Remote Powered Vehicles (RPVA). If we were to add up all the casualties due to the terrorist attacks within India during the period since Sep 21, 2002, that India blames on “Pakistan-based terrorists” the casualty figures are far less than those the Indians have inflicted in their ruthless artillery and mortar attacks in the past year. {And it is nothing compared to the average of about 7500 Kashmiris killed and about 25000 injured every year, year after year, by Indian occupation forces within Kashmir since 1989}.

7500*15 years=112500 casualties

arjun #140,
yep, like the 70000 people supposed to be killed in kashmir. Some deluded Pakistani collected the statistics in his dream, and today seems like all of Pakistani press believes it.