A Space of One’s Own

Hello chusni/echoboom

tea?

urstruly: you no doubt have a point in referring to the corrupt life-style of pakistani secular rulers. But all have not been like that. But mullahs are depraved in their own way (and a few in the same way, like the late maulana whiskey whom i heard with my own ears talking sweet talk over the phone to his female friend in UK even though he was a married man).

But - the vast majority of pakistanis (rich and poor) are not like that as you well know. By giving women the same respect and dignity as is given to men, things like the promotion of female sports (with the burden for the good behavior of men being placed where it belongs - with the men, through severe punishments for the slightest hint of harassment), Pakistan would in fact start moving out of this primitive level of hedonism to a state where a president who indulges in depravity (as Clinton did) gets disgraced in public and comes close to being impeached. This is the moral standard that is way beyond anything present in Pakistan (as your examples themselves show).

Re: # 33

ntsyd sahib,

........... i know quite a few people like you and i feel sorry for their womenfolk ..........but please spare the rest of us

UrstrulY:23
Oh what a write-up.

and this takes the Donut.

``[He was politely told by his subordinates `` abay bhonsRi ke, nikkal le patli gali se agar kal ki roshni daikhini hay tau``.]``

plolitey, eh? Classic Urstruly.

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When Yahyaa Khan was ``attending`` the 2500 years of Monarchy in Iran ( end: 2501) he
was so drunk on Black-dog, his favourite , that when the grand occasion arrived he was Dhutt and drenched in his own urine & faeces...the Russian Ambassador reported.

He was also drunk & fornicating, and not answering the HQs, exactly 0n 27th Ramazan hole-up in a safe-house near Srinagar in 1848. Capture of Kashmir was only steps away but he let the looting ``Pathaans`` do the fighting..this from Q.U. Shahabs book.

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The opposition by the ``roshan-Khayals`` seems very logical.

Re: #29

hamid dear,

why do you fail to grasp a simple point is beyond me.

If your daughters and mine were opponents in a match; you, your sons, brothers, and other decent men of your family will extend the same courtesy to my daughter by considering her your own and appreciating her skills; just as my sons, brothers, other decent men of family and I will respect your dughters.

As for the rest of the seats in a stadium: (a) that`s an issue second to well being, enjoyment, and security of our daughters; and (b) with proper promotion and guaranteed security from hoodlums and vagabonds (nothing personal vagabond78, your nick and recent admission have left you vulnerable here), the games will be sold out by women only. Most of the women wish to go to the stadiums to watch the games, but the lewd element of society robs them of this entertainment.

I`m aware of uneducated mullah`s and their ill conceived logic. But as educated men and women we cannot overlook the Islam as laid out in the Quran and Sunnah.

I know some mullahs believe that Islam is based on blind faith. I respectfully disagree with them. If one examines Islam with rationale, it is absolutely mind boggling how it can fix our social, political, economical, and all other sorts of ills with simple dos and don`ts.... and I`m not talking about the common professional mullahs` version of Islam who fail to move beyond what their imams/emirs say.

What they follow is the politicized version of Islam. If you ask them when did the Prophet (PBUH) say that there should be, for example, a sunni group of Muslims and a shia, and so on; they go quite and probably will never look you in the eye again.

But that`s the worst reason for an educated intelligent person to altogether give up on tremendous insight, foresight and all other kinds of knowledge Islam presents; as it becomes his/her own loss.

By the way, your description of venus`s anatomy inadvertently proves my point too, if you think about it with honesty. Just teasing my friend... but do think about it :-)~

M`as-salaam

Various

I agree, that it is absolutely unfair to blame everything on ZAB, his policies, or the people that surrounded him. As a matter of fact, the rot started way before him. In my opinion, the Pakistani elite was definitely influenced by the sexual revolution of the sixties and the promiscuous culture that it brought. At that time only elite had a direct contact with the people in West, Western media, and literature. It is a common knowledge that the elite in Pakistan are the intellectual vassals of the West and at the time they were mostly the descendents of those people who used to be the point men for our white rulers pre-independence. Later this class expanded thru marriage and started including nouvu riche i.e smugglers, gun runners, small time mafia bosses, money launderers and brothel owners as well, who just happened to get rich by becoming the new point persons of the new brown masters of the country. The top civil and military culture was totally a European culture during Ayub Khan ever since independence. But at that time it was mostly a segregated culture that was mostly hidden from the common man.

But during Yehya Khan`s era new blood entered into this social elite. Those were the people whom I have listed above. During his time the Presidency was being ruled by three madams; madam noor jehan the singer, the highly experienced former courtesan of rajas and maharajas of united India - Malika Pukhraj; and madam Aqleem Akhtar Rani aka General Rani, who was the ruling queen of society girls and brothels association in Pakistan. Yehya himself was a drunkard and fornicator and other than that the only other thing he was good at was, well, drinking and fornication. This president was virtually impossible to approach even by his own people unless they kissed the testicles of one of these madams. Ch. Abdul Rashid (too many Rashids today), the then IG Police of Punjab writes in his memoirs ``main nay kia dekha`` that once Yehya was in Lahore with one of these madams or a prostitute supplied by them, whereas he should have been at Islamabad airport to receive a foreign dignitary of high importance. The guy was pitch drunk and no one could dare interrupt him and tell that he was required elsewhere; Rashid further tells that he was charged by other responsible people at the Presidency that he should do something to get the president out. Rashid says that he had to bring another madam (one of the 3) who then went inside and dragged Mr. President naked out in the verandah. The president was absolutely naked and refused to wear anything. The said madam then sat with him in the limousine along with a suite and Mr. President traveled from Lahore to Islamabad in natural dress and only when they were closing airport yehya was sober enough to put the clothes on. Both Chanakya and Machiavelli have strictly forbidden any ruler or even dictator to engage in sexual promiscuity because it is an ultimate sign of corruption and people never stand for it even if they are as corrupt. (clinton anyone?). The promiscuity of one at the top always trickles down to the lower echelon. And that is what happened and resulted in the Key Clubs among the elite of the society - the military, businessmen, and bureaucrats. I hope everyone at this forum knows how the key club works – right? (Hamidm would you please educate some of the ignoramuses here).

It is also said that on December 16, when Pakistan Army surrendered in Dhaka and Yehya was told about it, he was pitch drunk and the first question that he asked was ``Uh! It means I am still the President, right?`` He was politely told by his subordinates `` abay bhonsRi ke, nikkal le patli gali se agar kal ki roshni daikhini hay tau``. The people of Pakistan torched his property and he had to be kept under military guard for his protection until he died.

The seeds for the revolution of corruption and promiscuity had been sowed in the elite of the society. Until Yehya, this corruption and promiscuity was mostly confined to the upper echelon of the society; Bhutto ``popularized`` it and tried to spread it to each and every household in the name of ``liberation``, ``modernity``, and ``enlightenment``.

All maulvis and jamaatiyas should be banned from watching women`s sports: because for them only one sport comes to their mind when thinking of women).

All maulvis and jamaatiyas should be banned from walking the streets without blinders on (the ones they put on tonga horses, so their eyes dont stray): because they dont think of women as human beings, but as sex objects.
(and btw, this way way they will be fulfilling the Quranic injunction to all MALES to keep their eyes to themselves when they see women.)

This way, women will be able to walk with their heads held high as equal citizens of Pakistan as males. And not subject to harrassment by these animals.

ntsyed/hamidm: There is a simple solution to this problem; specifically within the Pakistani context:

Let the women, themselves, decide what they should do, wear etc. If they think they should only play in front of their relatives, then that is how it should be. If they think they should be watched by anyone and everyone, that is how it should be. If they hate people gawking at them, that is how it should be. And if they like people gawking at them, that is how it should be.

In this sense, both of you are like two fleas fighting over who owns the dog..........Let the dog decide..........

Re: # 27

ntsyed sahib,

....... now you are getting your tobe in a knot ....... so you are saying that it is okay for ``related`` males to watch a women sports event - i assume you mean mehrams only ............ so for a tennis match between sania mirza and venus williams it will be six or seven muslim men looking at venus` bare legs while her lecherous father is admiring sania`s ample bosom !......... is that what you mean ?........... and how do you propose filling up the other five hundred seats ? .......... and what about women`s soccer - is it okay for male relatives of 21 other women to look at a woman who can field only 2 or 3 mehrams of her own ....... do you realize how silly this mullah logic sounds ?

temporal,

``but...the times are achanging... internet, satellite transmissions etc. make for more porous mental and physical borders...``

Pardon me if I`m overreacting or misunderstand...but so what? Smut is smut, and mustn`t be tolerated. So say a crud load of people locally. Who cares what some judgmental European or north American has to say on the matter, or the handful of locales who are cultural sell outs. BUT, and this is HUGE...we musn`t equate the simple act of walking on the beach alone to clearly culturally problematic things like near pornographic literature (as Urstruly described it)...it`s a slippery slope indeed, but we`re walking on it like it or not. Falling back on the ``you can`t do anything about it`` attitude smacks of abdication...surrender. Fact is we can...individuals in government may not, but society at large sure as hell can and does.

Internet and communication tech. may be bringing us closer together, but our own ideals and values are the fences which keep us comfortable in our neighborhood. If we want something we`ll take it. The few who are swayed away from our yard by the Witnesses or Amway salesmen of the world really have validity in proclaiming the direction society should be going in (right or wrong).

Fact is, push on society, society may push back and knock you off your feet. So choose your battles wisely. This one, imho, is a worthwhile one. Ready? Puuuuussshhhh....

Re: #17

Dear hamid,

I`m glad to see you concur with me on this issue, even though you seem to think we don`t.

Following is what wrote:

``The male spectators unrelated to the athletes should not be allowed to witness the sport...``

Now, can you please tell me why I`ve used the term ``unrelated`` in that statement?

Allah has blessed me with one daughter too and she`s just as athletic as myself and my three sons. I want her to have just as much fun as my sons, and I don`t want her to be concerned about someone gawking at her, or hurl lewd comments at her, or God forbid stalk her.

You see my dear friend, you and I respect our women owing to our civility. But we can`t expect the same from idiots like one_world.

Secondly, security and privacy starts from within. If we don`t pay attention to our security and privacy then we can`t keep others from exploiting it.

I understand the Islamic ideals ticks you off. While that is not my intent, I think you should impartially look at where the secular notions of personal security and privacy start and where they end, vis a vis Islamic ideal.

Don`t let your sense of reason be overwhelmed by media hype... you`re much more intelligent to be blinded by flawed notions.

your friend,
ntsyed

I think there is a bigger problem that needs to be highlighted: it is the desire of one group of people to dominate another by implying that the former know what is better for the later. There is a certain amount of hypocrisy in this, as well. Since many individuals who oppose this act, in one case, tend to practice and encourage it in another.

For example, men think they should decide what women should do, because women don’t know any better. At another level, the colonists thought they should decide what the natives should do, so the later could be civilized. The Americans think they should decide what the Iraqis should so, since, in their opinion, the Iraqis don’t know any better. So on and so forth………

All of this is the same germ, appearing in different forms. And to impose their own views, in each of the above cases, people are willing to preach, enforce self-centered laws and even kill others (of course, for the, “benefit” of the other)……

No one is willing to let the, “other” decide what is better for him or her…………This is sign of a sickness that appears in different forms; not only in the case of men demanding what women should do…….but in other cases, as well…….

There are a few steps that need to be taken in Pakistan, to rectify this problem, keeping in the mind the ethos of the Pakistani society. The solution of importing the, “West” onto Pakisttan is something I have never thought will work in Pakistan. Even if one considers it the best solution. All solutions have to take into account the current state of the society:

- Women should have affirmative action in all legislative arenss (this has been done by Musharraf, already)
- All jurisprudence on womens issues, be it in Shariat courts or the normal courts, needs to be passed on, exclusively, to women judges. This includes family law, dress restrictions etc.
- All religious interpretations on women’s role, responsibilities and restrictions should be carried out by committees consisting of women themselves (women lawyers, scholars etc.)
- All property related financial issues – house ownership, loans for houses – like it is the case in Ontario, Canada (though not in USA) - should, by law, be jointly owned by husband and wife, regardless of who signs the papers

These four adjustments will revolutionalize the position of women in Pakistan, while remaining within the culture that exist there, at the moment. And they would be quite practical.

The desire of one man to dominate another is in-built in humans. It could be the White man/woman dominating the Black man/woman Or a man dominating a woman, in general. Even in the USA. all legislations regarding abortion, are carried out, overwhelmingly, by male legislatures, they is signed by male executives and they are by overwhelmingly adjudicated male judges…………

The desire of one human to dominate another is an issue, much broader than just male/female relationships……………..It extends to whole societies and countries……….

the baby cannot be pushed back into the womb

#19 is loaded but the inferences drawn are highly subjective

agree sociteies do not change overnight ..and zulfi has to be blamed for opportunism or cowardice of the highest order....(casino, wine, ahmedis etc.) ...elevated everest high by zina ul haq...and the momentum unleashed by his manipulations still cause the storms in the tea cup of current history...

but...the times are achanging... internet, satellite transmissions etc. make for more porous mental and physical borders...

...the jaahil mullah`s attempts to albanise (remember albania?) pakistan shall inshallah fail...the baby cannot be pushed back into the womb...it is unnatural...

...despite the nighmarish scenarios the abdul hates can dream of...the times are achanging...inshallah they will fail

Re: # 19
For me the disappearance of Zia-mafia was proof God exists!

Re: # 22

I will write some explanations to your post later, but one point I wanted to make clear was that the Shiekh Rashid mentioned in my post is not the motor-mouth sheeda talli who is our current Minister of Disinformation for this dictator. The Shiekh Rashid I mentioned was from Lahore and and considered one of the founding father of PPP. He is sometimes even called the ``baba-e-socialism``.

During the 77 elctions I vivedly remember attending one of his campaign speeches with my father. I was just a little kid but I still remember that he said ``kaun kehta hay keh maiN nay kothiaN aur makan banay hain (he was a minister of something in ZAB tennure), mera aaj bhi aik kamray ka makan hay jo baarish maiN chota (leaks) hai``

That remained a joke for many years to come. The guy was not financially corrupt, I think, but probably people were jealous because he married a second wife who was almost 1/3rd of his age - she was a school teacher. I almost went blind seeing her, she was so pretty.

Re# 19:
This is a very stunning post in which the writer has yielded gratification of traits of Zia’s Era by picking some convenient homemade examples. I want to insert the realities where necessary as a result of my cramming in alteration of Pakistani social behaviors.

Not too people know that Maulana Kosar Niazi [ notorious as disco mulla ] of PPP is not symbolized for liberalism. And in many times he is termed defector and traitor of party. Let me add that history of Sheikh Rashid is as defaulted as it could be. There is a joke that he was sent in PPP’s Rallies by wearing Black Burqa to note down the speeches.
The free hand of Drug Trafficking from Afghanistan + Weapon Culture is a product of Zia Regime under the shadow of Islamization is also worth mentioning. And that Refrendum of 1984 which was self summoned and resulted can be recollected as Habib Jalib greatly said:

In the city was deathly silence,
Was it a djinn or a referendum?``

Last but not least Let me add one more thing the term “Jiala” is used for workers of Pakistan People’s Party who were/are always treated worst than an anti Pakistani/spy. Many conflicts/destruction in the country has taken place by using their names. However they are self-sacrificing, noble volunteers of a society patriotic to the nation as any ruler should be. I think term `Jiala` awarded to awam by PPP is superior and honorable than any Tamgha to any Dormant Jurnail/Karnail...

...P.s Bina this is as every person wants too...Cheers.