A Space of One’s Own
Beena Sarwar April 5, 2005
#81 Posted by ntsyed on April 8, 2005 11:09:20 am
re: #s77 & 78
Dear MJ,
Your compliment is appreciated.
Actually I have noticed an absence of ntsyedanis here, and this is not okay. The simple reason appears to be the hostilities hurled at the few ntsyeds by the few moronic seculars, which encourages former to keep to themselves. Please note that you are not included in the moronic secular owing to your civilized communication.
My seeming regression is due to lack of sane and durable “progressive” solutions available to our contemporary problems as offered by the secular bunch here.
And my obsession is just as good or bad as my opponents’ fixation of the western values that are coming apart at seams, if one cares to look at the trajectory and its expected projectile.
It is truly sad to see the enlightened people of chowk, apparently with “larger canvas of thought”, unable to successfully counter the 1400 year arguments my ilk and I present here beyond cursing the few misguided mullahs.
I wonder why? Could it be because the 1400 year old well I live in is far less deep and dark than my opponents seem to be in? The solution that comes to their mind is to eliminate all barriers and leave everything and everyone vulnerable to all ills brought in by the meager amount of air they mistake as freedom – “forget the precautions, we’ll think of the remedy when the illness appears in my backyard” approach.
I suppose ‘common sense’ here means acquiescing to the anti-Muslim pressures to revolt against Islam?
Large canvas: as in as large as the west and its crumbling societies within a couple of centuries at best? Or is it a “large canvas” of pragmatism to take the chicken exit by employing quick fixes, rather than do something lasting to alleviate/eliminate the problems?
As disturbed as Bush may be due to loss of leadership status for all the democratic countries of the world, let alone Europe and Canada, I think it’s about time USA was relieved of this self-assumed responsibility.
As for turmoil in Canada, perhaps you haven’t looked under the snow covered ice. Case in point, if you can understand: African east coast was too far away to be affected by the tsunami in Indonesia/Sri Lanka region; Canada is far too closer to the US than Africa is to Indonesia.
Most European countries have their own similar problems if you care to follow the news. It’s only a matter of time before all these volcanoes erupt.
Freedom is a very valuable gift from Allah. We pay high price for it, thus it has to be preserved and protected before the corrupt internal and external elements exploit and take it away from us; as is the case with Pakistan. I enjoy my freedom as long as I don’t have to pay for it with severe humiliation later on. The bad aspects of anything have to be minimized first with prevention and only then the remedies can be effective. I hope that tickles your common sense?
”the downside to islamic peculiar view of women is that women can`t live a normal life. you seem to ignore the fact that she is given a fully functional brain and a body. objectively speaking, they are more than 80% similar to men.”
Far from it my friend, you’re way too much indoctrinated by the fundamentally flawed westerns notions of Islam and women. What you’ve expressed here may be applicable to the current politicized versions of Islam in Pakistan – peeri-faqiri, karokari, and all other such innovations in Islam; not true Islam.
It’s a misconception that true Islam discourages women to live normally; Islam never bans women from education and employment, business, leadership, etc. To the contrary, true Islam encourages them to be active members of the society. The only requirement is to remain within the Islamic guidelines just as men must. Just because anyone gets a degree and a job doesn’t mean he/she has earned the right to flout Islamic values by rendering them outdated. The current dilemma is that men in Pakistan don’t follow those guidelines as they should, therefore one can’t expect women to do it either.
Further responses to your responses to my allegations (actually I didn’t allege anything, there are derived from official governmental and non-governmental American statistics):
I can go one by one, but all of them will have the same response: you’ve failed to identify and/or justify the causes for those ills in the continental USA. Recognizing the fact that all countries have these ills, as Pakistanis we’re only concerned about Pakistan and desperately search for a solution.
Mind you, there isn’t a single country in my knowledge with comprehensive shari’a law, even if it is purportedly a Muslim country (refer to my article for the reason). KSA, which has more of it than any other country, enjoys far fewer incidents of those ills, due to the preventive and severe remedial laws of Shari’a. The statistics are present in the CIA and other intelligence agencies’ reports.
**>>> *increasing statistics of extramarital affairs, still a major cause of divorce
it`s only your morality that views it as a taboo. don`t forget that animals always have extramerial sex and nobody lays an eyebrow. oh, are you going to allege me for comparing humans with animals? let me accept it before you say so, who else are we? animals with one extra dimension!**
I hope you weren’t “tun” (inebriated) while formulating this response, because, I’m sorry but, this has got to be the sorriest response I’ve ever seen in this context.
**>>> *a steady high rate of STD including AIDS
do you think it is from god? what if animals are threatenned with AIDs? will god send some prophet for them?**
You were tun, weren’t you? LOL
Come on MJ, you’re much more intelligent than this.
And then this…
>>> *the thriving prostitution
so? it`s a human need, let`s be brave about it.
Be brave about it and dehumanize the women into satisfying men’s needs? I wonder what liberal women will have to say about it
.
Now tell, me how many had you had before you hammered these responses on the keyboard, ‘cause they seem more than just a Freudian slip?
**after writing this long futile post, I think I can feel the two horns which have appeared on my head. it`s not a good thing for me to touch ntsyed lengths in my posts, knowing that there is no outcome to it. **
On the contrary, there is an outcome: as you noted yourself, you can feel two horns appearing on your head. I tend to believe someone else is forcing them on there. At least you’re beginning to acknowledge their presence. How you remove them is your choice.
The point is that Pakistan needs a major overhaul as it nears civil war, and everyone will have to make some adjustments in the process. Now we have only two options to avert that catastrophe: (a) install service packs and grafts from deteriorating western societies, or (b) implement true Islamic laws (not the current perverted versions of it). In either case, people will have to implement the laws upon themselves to help the government implement it at the macro level. You can’t expect the law to help you much if you leave your valuables exposed and vulnerable.
The first solution seems easier, but it comes with little security of any kind, because not all people of the society can be as enlightened as you – the intellectual and sexual gradation will always be there. Because of this weakness the society will have to waste its cycles on applying SPs and firefighting, instead of advancing the nation into the firm and secure future. Secondly, the hodgepodge of many ideals and systems will eliminate standards by which laws could be formulated and enforced. We have seen the results of enforcing non-Shari’a law on Muslim population; it’s been just as futile as mixing oil and water.
On the other hand, the true Islamic system first of all installs precautions in the society, even if it seems oppressive. The precautions reduce the illnesses, thus the cost of remedies is alleviated as well. It is a misperception that Islam does not allow women outside the home. The women who cover themselves according to Shari’a are more at ease outside because it allows them to be less conscious about uncivilized men (which every community has its share of) staring at their physique – “freedom of mind versus freedom of dressing” concept. Which one is more important? Take your pick. The true Islamic laws go far beyond the western concept of security and privacy.
Islam is about responsibility at every level – from individuals to the rulers. The western/non-muslim concepts of such responsibilities have either failed or failing rapidly… just look at the world around you.
The only problem is that the westernized Pakistanis abroad and their ilk back home are not willing to make any changes in their lifestyles for the greater good of the country, whereas the majority of Pakistanis, including women, desire implementation of true Islam in all aspects of life because there’s more hope in security than in vulnerability of openness. The simple reason being (and I know this is going to burn you up again) true Islam offers equal rights and proper protection to women more than any system in the world.
We can ill afford to omit the human element – hormones, natural selection, and the innate need to procreate (which emerges as “fun” in our brains) – from the equation of freedom. To ensure our individual and collective freedom, we must use these powerful elements of our existence wisely. Since a lot of us can not learn to do it on our own, the law should keep them in check until they learn to control themselves and see its benefits. Because the basic premise of laws is to keep the law-abiding decent people safe.
I wish you would think about these aspects carefully instead of compulsively responding to them off the top of your head, because my dear friend, I have chewed, digested, and excreted all the your lame reasons you present here.
As for…
** …no wonder why chowk rejected your article. actually this is evident from your posts which are regressive and obsessive. they are simply boring because you don`t like to stick to common sense, …**
there goes chowk’s credibility as purveyor of “freedom of speech” to allow diverse ideas and opinions; which proves my suspicion of it being nothing more than a propaganda mouthpiece for the anti-Islam camp.
Regards,
Dear MJ,
Your compliment is appreciated.
Actually I have noticed an absence of ntsyedanis here, and this is not okay. The simple reason appears to be the hostilities hurled at the few ntsyeds by the few moronic seculars, which encourages former to keep to themselves. Please note that you are not included in the moronic secular owing to your civilized communication.
My seeming regression is due to lack of sane and durable “progressive” solutions available to our contemporary problems as offered by the secular bunch here.
And my obsession is just as good or bad as my opponents’ fixation of the western values that are coming apart at seams, if one cares to look at the trajectory and its expected projectile.
It is truly sad to see the enlightened people of chowk, apparently with “larger canvas of thought”, unable to successfully counter the 1400 year arguments my ilk and I present here beyond cursing the few misguided mullahs.
I wonder why? Could it be because the 1400 year old well I live in is far less deep and dark than my opponents seem to be in? The solution that comes to their mind is to eliminate all barriers and leave everything and everyone vulnerable to all ills brought in by the meager amount of air they mistake as freedom – “forget the precautions, we’ll think of the remedy when the illness appears in my backyard” approach.
I suppose ‘common sense’ here means acquiescing to the anti-Muslim pressures to revolt against Islam?
Large canvas: as in as large as the west and its crumbling societies within a couple of centuries at best? Or is it a “large canvas” of pragmatism to take the chicken exit by employing quick fixes, rather than do something lasting to alleviate/eliminate the problems?
As disturbed as Bush may be due to loss of leadership status for all the democratic countries of the world, let alone Europe and Canada, I think it’s about time USA was relieved of this self-assumed responsibility.
As for turmoil in Canada, perhaps you haven’t looked under the snow covered ice. Case in point, if you can understand: African east coast was too far away to be affected by the tsunami in Indonesia/Sri Lanka region; Canada is far too closer to the US than Africa is to Indonesia.
Most European countries have their own similar problems if you care to follow the news. It’s only a matter of time before all these volcanoes erupt.
Freedom is a very valuable gift from Allah. We pay high price for it, thus it has to be preserved and protected before the corrupt internal and external elements exploit and take it away from us; as is the case with Pakistan. I enjoy my freedom as long as I don’t have to pay for it with severe humiliation later on. The bad aspects of anything have to be minimized first with prevention and only then the remedies can be effective. I hope that tickles your common sense?
”the downside to islamic peculiar view of women is that women can`t live a normal life. you seem to ignore the fact that she is given a fully functional brain and a body. objectively speaking, they are more than 80% similar to men.”
Far from it my friend, you’re way too much indoctrinated by the fundamentally flawed westerns notions of Islam and women. What you’ve expressed here may be applicable to the current politicized versions of Islam in Pakistan – peeri-faqiri, karokari, and all other such innovations in Islam; not true Islam.
It’s a misconception that true Islam discourages women to live normally; Islam never bans women from education and employment, business, leadership, etc. To the contrary, true Islam encourages them to be active members of the society. The only requirement is to remain within the Islamic guidelines just as men must. Just because anyone gets a degree and a job doesn’t mean he/she has earned the right to flout Islamic values by rendering them outdated. The current dilemma is that men in Pakistan don’t follow those guidelines as they should, therefore one can’t expect women to do it either.
Further responses to your responses to my allegations (actually I didn’t allege anything, there are derived from official governmental and non-governmental American statistics):
I can go one by one, but all of them will have the same response: you’ve failed to identify and/or justify the causes for those ills in the continental USA. Recognizing the fact that all countries have these ills, as Pakistanis we’re only concerned about Pakistan and desperately search for a solution.
Mind you, there isn’t a single country in my knowledge with comprehensive shari’a law, even if it is purportedly a Muslim country (refer to my article for the reason). KSA, which has more of it than any other country, enjoys far fewer incidents of those ills, due to the preventive and severe remedial laws of Shari’a. The statistics are present in the CIA and other intelligence agencies’ reports.
**>>> *increasing statistics of extramarital affairs, still a major cause of divorce
it`s only your morality that views it as a taboo. don`t forget that animals always have extramerial sex and nobody lays an eyebrow. oh, are you going to allege me for comparing humans with animals? let me accept it before you say so, who else are we? animals with one extra dimension!**
I hope you weren’t “tun” (inebriated) while formulating this response, because, I’m sorry but, this has got to be the sorriest response I’ve ever seen in this context.
**>>> *a steady high rate of STD including AIDS
do you think it is from god? what if animals are threatenned with AIDs? will god send some prophet for them?**
You were tun, weren’t you? LOL
Come on MJ, you’re much more intelligent than this.
And then this…
>>> *the thriving prostitution
so? it`s a human need, let`s be brave about it.
Be brave about it and dehumanize the women into satisfying men’s needs? I wonder what liberal women will have to say about it
.
Now tell, me how many had you had before you hammered these responses on the keyboard, ‘cause they seem more than just a Freudian slip?
**after writing this long futile post, I think I can feel the two horns which have appeared on my head. it`s not a good thing for me to touch ntsyed lengths in my posts, knowing that there is no outcome to it. **
On the contrary, there is an outcome: as you noted yourself, you can feel two horns appearing on your head. I tend to believe someone else is forcing them on there. At least you’re beginning to acknowledge their presence. How you remove them is your choice.
The point is that Pakistan needs a major overhaul as it nears civil war, and everyone will have to make some adjustments in the process. Now we have only two options to avert that catastrophe: (a) install service packs and grafts from deteriorating western societies, or (b) implement true Islamic laws (not the current perverted versions of it). In either case, people will have to implement the laws upon themselves to help the government implement it at the macro level. You can’t expect the law to help you much if you leave your valuables exposed and vulnerable.
The first solution seems easier, but it comes with little security of any kind, because not all people of the society can be as enlightened as you – the intellectual and sexual gradation will always be there. Because of this weakness the society will have to waste its cycles on applying SPs and firefighting, instead of advancing the nation into the firm and secure future. Secondly, the hodgepodge of many ideals and systems will eliminate standards by which laws could be formulated and enforced. We have seen the results of enforcing non-Shari’a law on Muslim population; it’s been just as futile as mixing oil and water.
On the other hand, the true Islamic system first of all installs precautions in the society, even if it seems oppressive. The precautions reduce the illnesses, thus the cost of remedies is alleviated as well. It is a misperception that Islam does not allow women outside the home. The women who cover themselves according to Shari’a are more at ease outside because it allows them to be less conscious about uncivilized men (which every community has its share of) staring at their physique – “freedom of mind versus freedom of dressing” concept. Which one is more important? Take your pick. The true Islamic laws go far beyond the western concept of security and privacy.
Islam is about responsibility at every level – from individuals to the rulers. The western/non-muslim concepts of such responsibilities have either failed or failing rapidly… just look at the world around you.
The only problem is that the westernized Pakistanis abroad and their ilk back home are not willing to make any changes in their lifestyles for the greater good of the country, whereas the majority of Pakistanis, including women, desire implementation of true Islam in all aspects of life because there’s more hope in security than in vulnerability of openness. The simple reason being (and I know this is going to burn you up again) true Islam offers equal rights and proper protection to women more than any system in the world.
We can ill afford to omit the human element – hormones, natural selection, and the innate need to procreate (which emerges as “fun” in our brains) – from the equation of freedom. To ensure our individual and collective freedom, we must use these powerful elements of our existence wisely. Since a lot of us can not learn to do it on our own, the law should keep them in check until they learn to control themselves and see its benefits. Because the basic premise of laws is to keep the law-abiding decent people safe.
I wish you would think about these aspects carefully instead of compulsively responding to them off the top of your head, because my dear friend, I have chewed, digested, and excreted all the your lame reasons you present here.
As for…
** …no wonder why chowk rejected your article. actually this is evident from your posts which are regressive and obsessive. they are simply boring because you don`t like to stick to common sense, …**
there goes chowk’s credibility as purveyor of “freedom of speech” to allow diverse ideas and opinions; which proves my suspicion of it being nothing more than a propaganda mouthpiece for the anti-Islam camp.
Regards,
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#82 Posted by ntsyed on April 8, 2005 11:27:21 am
re: #71
sorry meray pseudo goray sarkar,
I had not changed anything in the settings, and i don`t see anything to be changed either. it still appears deleted.
Re: #41
I thank you for the honor. Although, as I understand you had earned the title of ``Psuedo Joe Hate`` pretty early yourself. Please accept my belated congratulations on an astounding achievement. All the best to you in your futile endeavors.
sorry meray pseudo goray sarkar,
I had not changed anything in the settings, and i don`t see anything to be changed either. it still appears deleted.
Re: #41
I thank you for the honor. Although, as I understand you had earned the title of ``Psuedo Joe Hate`` pretty early yourself. Please accept my belated congratulations on an astounding achievement. All the best to you in your futile endeavors.
#83 Posted by ntsyed on April 8, 2005 11:30:07 am
re: #82
my mistake Pseudo Joe Hate! It appears to be working now.
You can still keep the title!
my mistake Pseudo Joe Hate! It appears to be working now.
You can still keep the title!
#84 Posted by ntsyed on April 8, 2005 1:05:06 pm
Re. #53
hamid,
``...... actually i have not seen ms mirza play and have not seen her bosom, but i have heard about it ! ......... but i can assure you that people don`t watch women`s tennis to look at their legs unless they are perverts ...........in any case, there is nothing wrong with noticing or even admiring an attractive member of the opposite sex as long as you don`t stare, make lewd remarks or reach out and touch ............``
Mrs ntsyed wishes to know what/how would you feel and do if you came upon someone talking about mrs hamid or your daughters as you heard about sania?
Furthermore, what could/can/do you do to stop someone if he stared, made lewd comments or reached out and touched at your ladies?
She hopes you still have some red blood running through your veins and arteries... and so do I. Otherwise, we think you`re in the best place you could ever be. Chowk may not be for me, but Pakistan may not be for you anymore, especially if me and my ilk succeed in our efforts.
But you never answered, what would you do if the US reinstated military draft and you and your family members (including ladies) were called in? Run up to Canada or down to Mexico?
debajo de México llega a ser el país caliente para gringos también.
et le Canada garde disrespecting oncle sam sur les problèmes stratégiques
.....you know that, right?
Let me know if you wish to come to Pak, my mrs will keep some black tents handy for your ladies and I`ll keep some shar`i shalwars and jinnah caps handy for you and your lads. Plus we`ll reserve a well decorated yellow minibus for you and your entourage... give y`all a round of the wonderful city, especially our laloo khet and drop you off at sohrab goath for the connecting buses to the panchayat country. Trains will be too conspicuous for you to travel in.
Why would I do that? because, in spite of you, I like you.. and why is that?... because subh ka bhoola shaam ko ghar ajaye to usay bhoola nahi kehtay, pola kertay hain.
hamid,
``...... actually i have not seen ms mirza play and have not seen her bosom, but i have heard about it ! ......... but i can assure you that people don`t watch women`s tennis to look at their legs unless they are perverts ...........in any case, there is nothing wrong with noticing or even admiring an attractive member of the opposite sex as long as you don`t stare, make lewd remarks or reach out and touch ............``
Mrs ntsyed wishes to know what/how would you feel and do if you came upon someone talking about mrs hamid or your daughters as you heard about sania?
Furthermore, what could/can/do you do to stop someone if he stared, made lewd comments or reached out and touched at your ladies?
She hopes you still have some red blood running through your veins and arteries... and so do I. Otherwise, we think you`re in the best place you could ever be. Chowk may not be for me, but Pakistan may not be for you anymore, especially if me and my ilk succeed in our efforts.
But you never answered, what would you do if the US reinstated military draft and you and your family members (including ladies) were called in? Run up to Canada or down to Mexico?
debajo de México llega a ser el país caliente para gringos también.
et le Canada garde disrespecting oncle sam sur les problèmes stratégiques
.....you know that, right?
Let me know if you wish to come to Pak, my mrs will keep some black tents handy for your ladies and I`ll keep some shar`i shalwars and jinnah caps handy for you and your lads. Plus we`ll reserve a well decorated yellow minibus for you and your entourage... give y`all a round of the wonderful city, especially our laloo khet and drop you off at sohrab goath for the connecting buses to the panchayat country. Trains will be too conspicuous for you to travel in.
Why would I do that? because, in spite of you, I like you.. and why is that?... because subh ka bhoola shaam ko ghar ajaye to usay bhoola nahi kehtay, pola kertay hain.
#85 Posted by tahmed32 on April 8, 2005 3:53:57 pm
ntsyed: while realizing your time is precious, i await your response to my post #61. I await your explanation of why the Quran is wrong when it makes it clear that there is no room for mullahs of any kind in islam - regardless of whether they are traditional (the ones of whom you have assured us you are no fan of) or the modern or ultra-modern or even the super-duper-ultra-modern mullahs (which presumably are the ones of whom you are a fan).
Why, sir, is the Quran wrong when it condemns intermediaries between man and God (thus cutting off the livelihood and political ambitions of the mullahs. Even mullahs wearing emperor-like robes like mullah fazloo.)??
Why, sir, is the Quran wrong when it condemns intermediaries between man and God (thus cutting off the livelihood and political ambitions of the mullahs. Even mullahs wearing emperor-like robes like mullah fazloo.)??
#86 Posted by ntsyed on April 9, 2005 1:06:35 am
Re: #61 & #85
Dear tahmed32
Is the number 32 representative of your teeth or the springs you`ve enjoyed thus far. Just kidding.
As for your post #61, which refers to mine (numbered #59)... I`m sorry but for the most part you`re mistaking someone else`s words as mine.
The words you quote in #61 are not mine except for the first two, even when I rechecked the #59.
Anyway, to answer your questions: I agree with you that the term ``traditional mullah`` implies the presence of ``modern/enlightened mullahs``. I apologize for the confusion, but my reference is to the mullahs who are more indoctrinated by their regional culture/traditions than Islam, which in my view renders them unreliable, to say the least. Furthermore, mullah is a generic term, to me at least, which applies to anyone with a beard and shalwar above his ankles.
Having said that, in order to bring back true Islam in Pakistan, scholars like Maulana Salman Nadvi, Justice Taqi Uthmani, etc. are needed, who did not issue fatawa on the fly, like some current traditional mullahs do. The former remain(ed) in constant search to learn more and more about Islam and Allah and the Prophet (PBUH). Unfortunately, thus far people like him have been sidelined by the Pakistani drunkards for political elites in collusion with the farangi masters.
I hope to be struck by a thunderbolt from Allah before I ever claim that authentic Sunnah overrides Quranic verses (m`az Allah) in any way. What I do maintain is that the Sunnah (authenticly reported ones) are perfectly synchronized with Quran - in effect mirror each other, because the Prophet (PBUH) only did what Allah ordered him to do. Allah even testifies to that effect in the Quran.
(m`az Allah) Quran is not wrong or incomplete anywhere. However, there are a lot verses which only refer to certain situations instead of going into their details. Therefore one must read the authentic sunnah and exegesis to understand the background and context. For example, the slandering of `Aisha (ra); the Prophet (PBUH)`s marriage to Dhaid Bin Haritha (ra)`s divorcee; reference to Abu Bakar (ra); Allah`s testimony on behalf Jibraeel (as)`s when the disbelievers were accusing the Prophet (PBUH) with sorcery, not to forget His testimony for the Prophet (PBUH)`s honesty etc.
Allah could have revealed the whole Quran to any xyz, but the purpose of Sunnah and Allah`s repeated stress in the Quran to obey Him and His messenger (PBUH) is for people to see the practical application of Allah`s orders and observance of things He permitted or prohibited for us.
Anyway, I think there was a miscommunication somewhere, and I hope my response answers the questions you directed at me.
take care
Dear tahmed32
Is the number 32 representative of your teeth or the springs you`ve enjoyed thus far. Just kidding.
As for your post #61, which refers to mine (numbered #59)... I`m sorry but for the most part you`re mistaking someone else`s words as mine.
The words you quote in #61 are not mine except for the first two, even when I rechecked the #59.
Anyway, to answer your questions: I agree with you that the term ``traditional mullah`` implies the presence of ``modern/enlightened mullahs``. I apologize for the confusion, but my reference is to the mullahs who are more indoctrinated by their regional culture/traditions than Islam, which in my view renders them unreliable, to say the least. Furthermore, mullah is a generic term, to me at least, which applies to anyone with a beard and shalwar above his ankles.
Having said that, in order to bring back true Islam in Pakistan, scholars like Maulana Salman Nadvi, Justice Taqi Uthmani, etc. are needed, who did not issue fatawa on the fly, like some current traditional mullahs do. The former remain(ed) in constant search to learn more and more about Islam and Allah and the Prophet (PBUH). Unfortunately, thus far people like him have been sidelined by the Pakistani drunkards for political elites in collusion with the farangi masters.
I hope to be struck by a thunderbolt from Allah before I ever claim that authentic Sunnah overrides Quranic verses (m`az Allah) in any way. What I do maintain is that the Sunnah (authenticly reported ones) are perfectly synchronized with Quran - in effect mirror each other, because the Prophet (PBUH) only did what Allah ordered him to do. Allah even testifies to that effect in the Quran.
(m`az Allah) Quran is not wrong or incomplete anywhere. However, there are a lot verses which only refer to certain situations instead of going into their details. Therefore one must read the authentic sunnah and exegesis to understand the background and context. For example, the slandering of `Aisha (ra); the Prophet (PBUH)`s marriage to Dhaid Bin Haritha (ra)`s divorcee; reference to Abu Bakar (ra); Allah`s testimony on behalf Jibraeel (as)`s when the disbelievers were accusing the Prophet (PBUH) with sorcery, not to forget His testimony for the Prophet (PBUH)`s honesty etc.
Allah could have revealed the whole Quran to any xyz, but the purpose of Sunnah and Allah`s repeated stress in the Quran to obey Him and His messenger (PBUH) is for people to see the practical application of Allah`s orders and observance of things He permitted or prohibited for us.
Anyway, I think there was a miscommunication somewhere, and I hope my response answers the questions you directed at me.
take care
#87 Posted by tahmed32 on April 9, 2005 5:55:38 am
ntsyed sahib #86 Thank you for your kind humor sir. With respect to the origin of the 32, you should know that 73 minus 32 equals 41. And 41, as you must know sir, is the answer to all questions, and the meaning of 73 must be obvious to a scholar like you. Or you may wish to consult Maulana Uthmani (btw, do you have a speech impediment sir, that you are unable to say Usman and must say Uthman like the ``s`` challenged arbi people?) or some similar saintly expert for the significance of this number.
Anway, coming to the substance (knowing you have limited time), your fear of being struck by a thunderbolt if you explicitly rejected the Quranic injunctions is certainly well-founded. Therefore you, being a very intelligent man, have taken the alternative route of IMPLICITLY rejecting Quranic injunctions. Very clever sir, if I may say so. God has been fooled (and it is not even April 1 anymore) and does not realize that you are venerating the Quran while rejecting it. Like the Queen of England, the Quran reigns in isolated splendor as a figurehead but, like the government ministers that they wish to become, the mullahs rule.
More specifically, you write ``in order to bring back true Islam in Pakistan, scholars like Maulana Salman Nadvi, Justice Taqi Uthmani, etc. are needed, who did not issue fatawa on the fly, like some current traditional mullahs do. ``. But may I humbly ask sir, why the Quran is wrong in saying that it is a book to make things simple? Why did God make the mistake of translating the message into arbi (as the Quran says, it is merely the ``arabic Quran``, written for a people who are not literate in languages) when, per your formula, they could simply have asked some scholar like Justice Uthman to translate it from hebrew into explain it to them in plain words for every situation??
Anway, coming to the substance (knowing you have limited time), your fear of being struck by a thunderbolt if you explicitly rejected the Quranic injunctions is certainly well-founded. Therefore you, being a very intelligent man, have taken the alternative route of IMPLICITLY rejecting Quranic injunctions. Very clever sir, if I may say so. God has been fooled (and it is not even April 1 anymore) and does not realize that you are venerating the Quran while rejecting it. Like the Queen of England, the Quran reigns in isolated splendor as a figurehead but, like the government ministers that they wish to become, the mullahs rule.
More specifically, you write ``in order to bring back true Islam in Pakistan, scholars like Maulana Salman Nadvi, Justice Taqi Uthmani, etc. are needed, who did not issue fatawa on the fly, like some current traditional mullahs do. ``. But may I humbly ask sir, why the Quran is wrong in saying that it is a book to make things simple? Why did God make the mistake of translating the message into arbi (as the Quran says, it is merely the ``arabic Quran``, written for a people who are not literate in languages) when, per your formula, they could simply have asked some scholar like Justice Uthman to translate it from hebrew into explain it to them in plain words for every situation??
#88 Posted by temporal on April 9, 2005 6:14:29 am
nts# 82 and 83:
i repeat what i informed you kindly on another board
and this again confirms that you are delusional
t
i repeat what i informed you kindly on another board
and this again confirms that you are delusional
t
#89 Posted by echoboom on April 9, 2005 11:19:35 am
David Lamb, the Los Angeles reporter, who wrote the bestselling book The Africans, while living and travelling for four years in Africa echoes this point. He states that one of the best comparisons between a Christian and Muslim country in Africa was the safety of the streets within the larger cities. He felt that he would never let his wife walk alone at night, and sometimes even during the day in most of the larger African Christian cities. Yet, he had no fear of permitting his wife to wander freely within any of the larger African Muslim cities.
Judy and I, during our 5 years in Senegal, a country of 7 million, of which 92% of the population claimed to be Muslim, don`t recall of ever having to fear for the safety of our women. Not once were they ever ``cat-called,`` and in the entire time there, we remember hearing of only one rape in our town of 350,000 individuals. On this point alone, Islam has proved to far excel Christianity with its care and discipline towards women.
So how do we respond to these views and findings as Christians?
Judy and I, during our 5 years in Senegal, a country of 7 million, of which 92% of the population claimed to be Muslim, don`t recall of ever having to fear for the safety of our women. Not once were they ever ``cat-called,`` and in the entire time there, we remember hearing of only one rape in our town of 350,000 individuals. On this point alone, Islam has proved to far excel Christianity with its care and discipline towards women.
So how do we respond to these views and findings as Christians?
#90 Posted by DoubleC on April 9, 2005 8:33:18 pm
NTS,
Re: 40....The dumb-ass secular five bribed a janitor (probably a karanti)
Why couldn`t a wog be the janitor? Why a karanta? Since you are a wog yourself you think that no wog would be able to do something like this? Guy, i had resepct for you but it seems that you not only are a reigious fanatic but also a racist.
Re: 40....The dumb-ass secular five bribed a janitor (probably a karanti)
Why couldn`t a wog be the janitor? Why a karanta? Since you are a wog yourself you think that no wog would be able to do something like this? Guy, i had resepct for you but it seems that you not only are a reigious fanatic but also a racist.
#91 Posted by DoubleC on April 9, 2005 9:45:59 pm
89 Boom box,
What`s your point here? What does religion have to do with safety. Speak to brown people that have worked in Saudi and they will tell you how safe they felt when the stayed there. Read one worlds posts in UP and you`ll get the picture.
I still cannot figure out what you are trying to do. Your i-logs are filled with non-muslims converting to Islam..... it seems that you are a religious person but at the same time you don`t shy away from profanity. What does this mean?
BTW the Iranian examples that you have posted below are nice to see..... however Iran is a Shia country and my observation of this particular sect of Islam has been very refreshing.
What`s your point here? What does religion have to do with safety. Speak to brown people that have worked in Saudi and they will tell you how safe they felt when the stayed there. Read one worlds posts in UP and you`ll get the picture.
I still cannot figure out what you are trying to do. Your i-logs are filled with non-muslims converting to Islam..... it seems that you are a religious person but at the same time you don`t shy away from profanity. What does this mean?
BTW the Iranian examples that you have posted below are nice to see..... however Iran is a Shia country and my observation of this particular sect of Islam has been very refreshing.
#92 Posted by echoboom on April 10, 2005 9:32:35 am
91:doublecc
What does this mean?
Perhaps it means that I am not as nice as some mistakenly think so. Perhaps I am, but not so religious as some give me the credit for it.
Maybe I am a diehard Marxist-Leninnist who has found a new Trojan horse.
lot of may-bes there, no?
The profanity should have been a clear giveaway. You still ask.
Ask Kalachakra, he has a very sharp and clear mind about such issues.
or write to David Lamb , the Los Angeles reporter; because in post# 89 the reporting is his.
The missing `` `` marks (my error) notwithstanding, but pretty obvious.
What does this mean?
Perhaps it means that I am not as nice as some mistakenly think so. Perhaps I am, but not so religious as some give me the credit for it.
Maybe I am a diehard Marxist-Leninnist who has found a new Trojan horse.
lot of may-bes there, no?
The profanity should have been a clear giveaway. You still ask.
Ask Kalachakra, he has a very sharp and clear mind about such issues.
or write to David Lamb , the Los Angeles reporter; because in post# 89 the reporting is his.
The missing `` `` marks (my error) notwithstanding, but pretty obvious.
#93 Posted by ntsyed on April 10, 2005 11:08:29 am
re: #88:
I`m glad to be able to help you [b]prove[/b] something :)
At least you`re not a duck [0] anymore, but you`re still a quack... quack quack :)
Cheers
I`m glad to be able to help you [b]prove[/b] something :)
At least you`re not a duck [0] anymore, but you`re still a quack... quack quack :)
Cheers
#94 Posted by ntsyed on April 10, 2005 11:15:50 am
Re: #90
CC
Being a father of a young daughter, I simply could not control my anger when I heard about the incident.
I do apologize for my mistake. It is inexcusable! I`ll be more than ready to accept any punishment meted out for that uncalled for offence.
I hope Allah will accept my repentance, forgive me, and keep me from repeating it in future.
Also I hope you and everyone here will forgive my imperfection.
Furthermore, I`m indebted to you for making me aware of it. Thank you!
CC
Being a father of a young daughter, I simply could not control my anger when I heard about the incident.
I do apologize for my mistake. It is inexcusable! I`ll be more than ready to accept any punishment meted out for that uncalled for offence.
I hope Allah will accept my repentance, forgive me, and keep me from repeating it in future.
Also I hope you and everyone here will forgive my imperfection.
Furthermore, I`m indebted to you for making me aware of it. Thank you!
#95 Posted by ntsyed on April 10, 2005 1:04:02 pm
Re: #87
tahmed
The `th` is the proper pronounciation for the fourth letter in the Arabic script, which differentiates it from `seen` and `saud` phonetics. Otherwise, one could mistake the meanings of the Quran while listening to its recitation. I hope the explanation will not impede your cosmopolitan growth.
Now that you`ve correctly guessed my shortage of time, I will pass on a round of Twisters by waiving the explanation inquiry on the following:
**...you, being a very intelligent man, have taken the alternative route of IMPLICITLY rejecting Quranic injunctions.**
I sincerely hope you`re not suffering from Sattar syndrome; his affliction seems to be in incorrigibly advanced stages. I`ve referred his case to Allah, for He is the Only One with all the cures.
Mullahs:
Come to think of it, it`s not the mullahs who rule Pakistan. It`s ruled by our ignorance of our own roots. If our forefathers had taught us Islam properly (not just 5 daily prayers and one time nazra without tajweed and understanding), we wouldn`t have allowed the 2-bit mullahs to hijack true Islam. Nor would we have allowed an opportunity to our disoriented, who prefer ``seculars``, to distort and/or demand elimination of Islam.
Quran does make things very simple; theoratically as well as pratically. The only trick to understand the simplicity. Typing may be very simple to you now, but think of the time when you started typing. Was it so simple then too? I don`t know about you, but most people I know wonder why did the inventors have to place the main keys where they have. We simply do not care to think how much research it may have taken some individual or group to arrange the letters in the manner we see today.
Anyway, Scholars like Salman Nadvi and Justice Uthmani are not merely translators of the Quran. Now, solve the following riddle to understand the concept:
a translator is to a
as what a mechanic is to an engineer
Now ask yourself the following question:
If a person wishes to become a doctor, do you think: he/she can become one by watching a few doctors while they treated patients; by reading the entire medical curriculum without attending the lectures and labs and residencies and house jobs; one, on his/her own, could understand everything there`s to be understood in order to know in the profession of medicine?
Be fair to yourself my friend; do not overestimate your common sense when it comes to Quran.
Its poetry could not be understood, when most of us find it difficult to understand Meer and Poe`s work without thinking about the context, implicit, and explicit.
Its science could not be fathomed when after 2 millenniums of his birth we`ve just learned that Mary`s conception of her son - `Isa (pbuh) - is a biological possibility in almost every single woman. Read the breakthrough by Japaneses and Korean scientist in asexual reproduction in mammals as of Feb/March 2004.
It contains entire history of this universe from the day Allah created it, and it contains the entire future. Allah could have put each and every detail in the book and handed it to us without any Prophet or angel as intermediary. But then, one cannot even guess how long it would take one to read just one chapter, let alone the whole book; especially the ones who find it cumbersome to read the 30 chapters.
Not only is it about the visible, but it also describes the invisible that we cannot understand without the (a) authentic Sunnah of the Prophet-pbuh, and (b) scholars (in that order) who devoted their lifetimes to make it easy for us to understand.
There are many more facets to this miracle. For your sake, I hope it`s beginning to sink in.
Please do yourself a favor and don`t trivialize it. To understand it properly, seek guidance from Allah, for it only comes when sought, and respect the people who have devoted their lives for our future in this world and hereafter.
Simplicity, if misinterpreted and misunderstood can be fatally dangerous.
take care
tahmed
The `th` is the proper pronounciation for the fourth letter in the Arabic script, which differentiates it from `seen` and `saud` phonetics. Otherwise, one could mistake the meanings of the Quran while listening to its recitation. I hope the explanation will not impede your cosmopolitan growth.
Now that you`ve correctly guessed my shortage of time, I will pass on a round of Twisters by waiving the explanation inquiry on the following:
**...you, being a very intelligent man, have taken the alternative route of IMPLICITLY rejecting Quranic injunctions.**
I sincerely hope you`re not suffering from Sattar syndrome; his affliction seems to be in incorrigibly advanced stages. I`ve referred his case to Allah, for He is the Only One with all the cures.
Mullahs:
Come to think of it, it`s not the mullahs who rule Pakistan. It`s ruled by our ignorance of our own roots. If our forefathers had taught us Islam properly (not just 5 daily prayers and one time nazra without tajweed and understanding), we wouldn`t have allowed the 2-bit mullahs to hijack true Islam. Nor would we have allowed an opportunity to our disoriented, who prefer ``seculars``, to distort and/or demand elimination of Islam.
Quran does make things very simple; theoratically as well as pratically. The only trick to understand the simplicity. Typing may be very simple to you now, but think of the time when you started typing. Was it so simple then too? I don`t know about you, but most people I know wonder why did the inventors have to place the main keys where they have. We simply do not care to think how much research it may have taken some individual or group to arrange the letters in the manner we see today.
Anyway, Scholars like Salman Nadvi and Justice Uthmani are not merely translators of the Quran. Now, solve the following riddle to understand the concept:
a translator is to a
as what a mechanic is to an engineer
Now ask yourself the following question:
If a person wishes to become a doctor, do you think: he/she can become one by watching a few doctors while they treated patients; by reading the entire medical curriculum without attending the lectures and labs and residencies and house jobs; one, on his/her own, could understand everything there`s to be understood in order to know in the profession of medicine?
Be fair to yourself my friend; do not overestimate your common sense when it comes to Quran.
Its poetry could not be understood, when most of us find it difficult to understand Meer and Poe`s work without thinking about the context, implicit, and explicit.
Its science could not be fathomed when after 2 millenniums of his birth we`ve just learned that Mary`s conception of her son - `Isa (pbuh) - is a biological possibility in almost every single woman. Read the breakthrough by Japaneses and Korean scientist in asexual reproduction in mammals as of Feb/March 2004.
It contains entire history of this universe from the day Allah created it, and it contains the entire future. Allah could have put each and every detail in the book and handed it to us without any Prophet or angel as intermediary. But then, one cannot even guess how long it would take one to read just one chapter, let alone the whole book; especially the ones who find it cumbersome to read the 30 chapters.
Not only is it about the visible, but it also describes the invisible that we cannot understand without the (a) authentic Sunnah of the Prophet-pbuh, and (b) scholars (in that order) who devoted their lifetimes to make it easy for us to understand.
There are many more facets to this miracle. For your sake, I hope it`s beginning to sink in.
Please do yourself a favor and don`t trivialize it. To understand it properly, seek guidance from Allah, for it only comes when sought, and respect the people who have devoted their lives for our future in this world and hereafter.
Simplicity, if misinterpreted and misunderstood can be fatally dangerous.
take care
#96 Posted by tahmed32 on April 10, 2005 3:39:24 pm
ntsyed: #95 Thanks for your response.
I realize that `th` is a letter in the Arabic script (as I made clear), but you are not an Arab nor am I an Arab (not that arabs are not nice people, in fact i am just coming from a community thing where a very nice arab lady showed us some very nice stuff artwork from damascus). Nor are there any Arabs on this board who would be confused if you referred to this gentleman Usman by his proper, nor does pronouncing a man`s name correctly have anything to do with the Quran.
So, I can only conclude that you suffer from some speech impediment (such as a lisp) that leads you to call Usman Uthman. The only other possibility is that you are so superficial as to think that you need to speak like an Arab in order to be a muslim - in which case I assume you will be referring to Baa Baa Black Sheep as Pa Pa Plack Theep.
I too have some minor time commitments, and so will end this post - but will inthallah (I mean inshallah) be back to respond to the remainder of your post.
I realize that `th` is a letter in the Arabic script (as I made clear), but you are not an Arab nor am I an Arab (not that arabs are not nice people, in fact i am just coming from a community thing where a very nice arab lady showed us some very nice stuff artwork from damascus). Nor are there any Arabs on this board who would be confused if you referred to this gentleman Usman by his proper, nor does pronouncing a man`s name correctly have anything to do with the Quran.
So, I can only conclude that you suffer from some speech impediment (such as a lisp) that leads you to call Usman Uthman. The only other possibility is that you are so superficial as to think that you need to speak like an Arab in order to be a muslim - in which case I assume you will be referring to Baa Baa Black Sheep as Pa Pa Plack Theep.
I too have some minor time commitments, and so will end this post - but will inthallah (I mean inshallah) be back to respond to the remainder of your post.
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