A Fobby Love Story

Saminasha #58

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply.

{{1. While India might provide access towards education and prof career opportunities for SOME classes, does it provide these mechanisms for ALL classes? Theoretically, No. America does. The whole mythology of this country is based on the idea that economic success can be achieved regardless of one`s particulars.}}

I readily concede that India doesn’t provide access for ALL classes, while in theory the American dream is supposed to be accessible to every citizen. However America DOES NOT – either in fact or in theory - provide equal access to the American dream for all classes of would-be immigrants – particularly those from the Indian subcontinent. Those Indians who manage to make it to through the golden door are very likely to be drawn from established professional backgrounds or (more recently) the growing rapidly upwardly mobile middle class.

I submit that these very people are most likely to already concede the importance of education and professional opportunities for women, and to subscribe to the ideal of marriage between equals. Some of them might have a longer family history of female higher education than their typical American counterparts. It’s far from obvious that a randomly chosen male Indian FOB would me more intimidated or threatened by educated or professionally qualified women than, for example, a randomly chosen male drawn from the general US population would be. A rigorous comparative study would be quite interesting.

{{2. … For some of its citizenry, India does provide opportunity - for too many others, it doesnt. I`ll hazard it has to do with widespread poverty, lack of resources, and money that is ear marked for ITT instituitions and nuclear weapons programs rather than boring old social welfare programs.}}

IMO massive corruption - theft of resources earmarked for social welfare (primary health, schools and such) and infrastructure (drinking water, roads) has much more to do with this state of affairs than the miniscule amounts spent on nuclear weapons or IITs (which is what I think you meant, not ITTs). But for the reasons I outlined above, that does not have much relevance to Indian FOB attitudes – Indian FOBs, of either gender, are likely to be drawn from those who were given opportunities in the first place.

{{3. … I am a child of an equitable marriage. Both my parents earned the same degrees, the same income, clocked in the same amount of hours. It worked because both parents BELIEVED in equity, despite their Indian/Pakistani roots.}}

FWIW, my mother earned medals and the highest honours throughout her academic career (she was a science wonk, BTW). She worked for a decade and a half while I was growing up – at my father’s urging, and at a level far below what she was capable of. It’s not for me to judge whether my parents had an equitable marriage, but my father was certainly very supportive. I have aunts and other female relatives who won academic distinction comparable to my mother’s, had full-fledged careers, and are formidable personalities to boot – and I set my own expectations accordingly. I don’t think my background is exceptional. Your remark “despite their Indian … roots” just doesn’t capture my slice of reality.

Re: # 64 gypsy_heart: well said,

i personally think that there are some who probably hold their own well being as their only concern and they have to go that way bulldozing everything else. the right term for this is `babu culture`. these people are bestowed with the nature of worshipping every rising sun and will not stop at anything if it is in the way of their well being. some will even start hating who they really were and to some extent still are.

or there might be some who are put in a particular situation that the only way to justify it is to hold such garbage as the truth. we all have our prejudices, but this one is sad.

and whats wrong with educating your children about your culture, traditions and religion?? above 18 it`s their choice but if you do it the right way and if you practice it just as you want them to, means no hypocricy, they will absolutely follow it.

can anyone please tell me whats american culture?? i mean besides thanksgiving what is a distinctive feature of american culture and traditions??

don`t christians push their kids into religion, then whats wrong with a muslim pushing his kids to masjid?? i`m sorry to say my white friends can quote on everything from bible but desi kids are still confused if beer is allowed or its just nasha depending on what they`ve heard from others, how many have actually done the effort of reading Quran and searching by themself. jews have their synagogues, orientals have china towns, irish, scottish, hispanics, italians, you name it and they are all keeping their traditions alive, it`s a country of immigrants we are all here to learn the best from other cultures and contribute with the best we have.

but if someone himself is disgusted by his religion and culture, then obviously he will teach the same to his kids and they`ll grow mirroring his teachings, theirs nothing wrong in listening to greenday or garbage, metallica and tool are my favourites but they don`t stop me from praying or make me curse in every other sentence.

i don`t understand this gender dominance issue, yes there are egoistical and insecure males but are they only breeded in subcontinent?? there are none in NA?? where are more divorces happening everyday?? this article came from me and my mom had been working for past 20 years in an executive position, forget my mom my dadi was a phd and a very active philanthropist and my dada a bachelors, but theirs relationship was perfect, the issue here is not money or education, but respect and love, if your spouse is willing to respect and love you for what you are and give your family the same respect you give, the relationship will always be wonderful.

hamidm sir: thank you for your kind reply. i appreciate.

AlephNull: comparing desi-fobs with other groups like fob-latinos or maybe i dont know... would be curious. If someone has any info on other groups plz. share. My own understanding is purely anecdotal as you would say; desi pakistanis (men specially) are very conflicted when it comes to ``Their`` women. They become overyl-religous as the mainstream society doesnt carry the same hypocritical/selective religiosity attitudes as they were grown accustomed to back in their mother country Pakistan. The doting-mothers phenomenon as pointed out by hamidm is also a major factor.

but what will an abcd do if one is employed in US airforce and is orderred to drop a bomb on Islamabad someday?

Hamid,

Yes, there are some lovely desi men married to abcds...too rare unfor.

Re: # 58

alephnull,

........... i agree with saminasha that, generally speaking, fob men tend to be rather insecure and have a hard time coping with professional women who are financially independent and won`t put up with their bs .......... actually most desi men ``back home` are brought up to think that their doo doesn`t stink and are indoctrinated by doting mothers who want to pass on their own miserable lives to their daughters-in-law...........

....... i too have seen many horrible examples of marriages between fob men and paki/indian-american girls (the term abcd is silly) where the husbands and their families act like a bunch of bride-burning madrasis on a rampage ............... one should not generalize, and i am sure that there are some decent fobs who are not intimidated by women, but they seem to be few and far between ........

Aleph Null,

Oho Sahib...I didnt know you cared that much...

1. While India might provide access towards education and prof career opportunities for SOME classes, does it provide these mechanisms for ALL classes? Theoretically, No. America does. The whole mythology of this country is based on the idea that economic success can be achieved regardless of one`s particulars. I think this promise is worthy of trying to achieve thru our social programs, institutions, etc.,-although I tend to agree with Barbara Ehrenreich, Julius Wilson and David Shipler that it difficult for working class communities to break thru to higher income brackets.

2. You dont like this, but too bad. For some of its citizenry, India does provide opportunity-for too many others, it doesnt. I`ll hazard it has to do with widespread poverty, lack of resources, and money that is ear marked for ITT instituitions and nuclear weapons programs rather than boring old social welfare programs. If you`d like to compare India and the US, by all means, do so.

3. re: equity. I am a child of an equitable marriage. Both my parents earned the same degrees, the same income, clocked in the same amount of hours. It worked because both parents BELIEVED in equity, despite their Indian/Pakistani roots. This mutuality carried them through professional achievement, domestic management, religious worship, cultural affiliations, the unimaginative and uncomfortably threatened in laws who were intimidated by two equally active spouses. I really had little time for domestic sphere vs public sphere power ``models``, because my mother didnt have to play those games-nor were she and my father were too busy voting, being politically active and trying to bring fam here to study.
So I have first hand knowlege of how sucessful and visionary an equal partnership can be.

I also have witnessed first hand, some disasterous and abusive marriages among abcds and fobs. Usually they run along the lines of the husband intimidated by his abcd wife who is a citizen, is comfortable in being able to politically, economically, socially active. She is able to move thru many different communities, millieus, identities, etc. which in itself is a challenge to the prescribed roles too many women are expected to adhere to in traditionally patriarchal communities. In these cases, the husband usually becomes insufferably religious in order to salve a bruised ego, insists his wife clean and cook or accept his reign in some way or another...all in the name of ``authenticity``...and these situations occur often among prof women...

Saminasha #54

Let me reiterate a request from an earlier post (#45). You asked in #32:

{{How many Fobs are 1. intimidated by the incomes and professional standing of desi women in north america 2. marry and despise/are intimidated/objectify their wives for the capability?}}

In #45, I’d asked you for your take on the answers to your own questions. I’d like to repeat that request. Would you care to compare fobs with any other appropriate group of your choice as far as these attitudes are concerned? Are your opinions anecdotally-derived, or do you belive they have an objective basis? How generally applicable are they? And what is this stuff you’ve been reading?

{{and yet the explicit eco/soc/pol. parity becomes the reason why abcds are not ``like`` fobs....I wonder-what is so simple and natural about inequity? Why is it so romanticized?}}

I also suspect (and I may well be wrong) that you may have not thought through some of the consequences of expectations of ‘equity’ or ‘explicit eco/soc/pol/parity’ in a relationship. We can look at that if you deign to answer my question in the previous paragraph.

Saminasha #54

{{Dont have a lot of time to discuss.}}

It’s so much easier to find time for banter on UP, isn’t it?

You wrote in #34 that

{{For South Asian immigrant men, interactions with american desi women may be fraught because traditional power dynamics are reversed.}}

You have explained neither why “traditional power dynamics are reversed” nor why interactions (between FOB men and American bred desi women) should necessarily be fraught (‘difficult, stressed, charged’) in consequence.

{{Basically, in NA desi women have equal access to education, somewhat acceptable chances at prof. employment, vote, can organize, worship where and how they want, choose to socialize with whom they choose, live alone.}}

The last I heard, women in India could vote. Access to education and professional employment was determined far more by social class than by gender. Women from my peer group and background were not routinely discouraged from acquiring an education or seeking employment matching their qualifications. My information is anecdotal, of course; it might even be antiquated. I can’t speak for other countries in the subcontinent.

{{It’s a whole different ballgame here.}}

That is a trivial observation – it’s a whole different country, after all. Unfortunately that does not explain why some specific relationships are prone to being especially troubled

hamidm,

your position on this is justified on some moral grounds but it remains a source of desparation for me.

Aleph Null,

Dont have a lot of time to discuss. Basically, in NA desi women have equal access to education, somewhat acceptable chances at prof. employment, vote, can organize, worship where and how they want, choose to socialize with whom they choose, live alone. A growing number are even choosing who they`ll marry thru their own networks, regardless of familial, cultural, caste or community approval.

Most desi women in NA who are struggling with emotional, economic, cultural obstacles in reaching these goals can rely on fairly extensive institutional and grassroots supports.

These opportunities are available to desi women largely irrespective of class, religion, caste or marital status.

Its a whole different ballgame here.

Re: # 51

......... call it intellectual laziness .............the alternatives are equally bad and starting your own church or masjid takes a lot of money ...........

Re: # 50 murshad,

what you say is probably correct but there are things which you are explicitly or implicitly don`t want to consider as factors while making such decision. it`s not that simple.

you rightly suggest that minds of the children are a subject to the conditions around them. this means if they grow up there, they will by something similar to us and if they grow up here, they will be similar to gora sahib, of cource not completely. for them, it really doesn`t matter. if you tell them that mo of mecca was an idiot, they will know exactly that and if you tell them that he was the only superman this world has seen than....

if you base your opinion on material well being in the world, no doubt that this is the place. but when you say the words like `us`, `our children`, then you know that you are something different than gora. you are not the gora not matter what. but when you feel it okay to make your kids as goras, this on one side means giving them a wonderful life but from the other perspective, this is like donating your family tree to the nation of gora. i don`t feel okay with this at all. the tree has grown on a land for centuries so why extract it and put it somewhere else and specially when it really doesn`t matter.

good life or bad life, hope or hoplessness, money or no money, easy life or hardcore experiences of life, nustrat fateh ali khan or ray charls, sattar or voilen, does it really matter?

okay, lets end the disagreement by agreeing on one thing. you don`t value this aspect of human nature which makes you think that you are a part of something, some group and you should be where you belong, however disgusting that group might look. these associations are not real. you think that at this point in time, some nations are ``better`` than others and it`s okay to merge into the betters. and you think it`s the right thing for the kids to do to make them a part of the ``better`` world.

my view is that ``better`` stems from our associations which are rooted into our evolutionary natures. i want to respect these associations. i want my children to have a world view coherent with mine so that i can communicate with them in real terms. i think it is not an injustice with my kids to make them a part of the ``lowly`` group because i think it doesn`t really matter. what matters is my tendency because for my kids, at least when they are under 8 years of age, i am completely in charge and i have the right to be. there`s no injustice, prejudice or crualty in that.

relativity murshad, relativity !

re #50 hamidm
``heck, i won`t even give up being a muslim even though, like i have often said, i have some serious problems with the character of the prophet ............``

i am curious and excuse me you can ignore this query if you dont like to tell - but what exactly could stop you to do that?


AlephNull: yea. exactly what the hell is this `traditional power dynamics` that is `reversed` (?) in NA? .. heh straaaange...