A Fobby Love Story

An interesting perspective. Although, I recommend not making wide generalities. Speaking in specific terms is more safe before one is sorry. I can imagine the reaction to the amount of criticizm the author has received on things ranging from his understanding of people to his the very core principles of his life.

If I were in the author`s shoes, I would restric the story to my own situation and not make accusations to the majority.

A great narration. One the best I have read so far in the Chowk (may be because I am new here).
I agree with the writer. I would like to add that an ABCD/EBCD once, an ABCD/EBCD forever. EBCD is the European version.
They talk of relationship but they dont believe in one. In fact these girls are reading a potential husband the moment they come across a guy. Its as if they are our desi girls and their Moms combined together and personfied as one.

Well.. from the article it looks like rejection has hurt the author`s ego quite a bit, and due to it, he is lashing out at the so called ``ABCD`` culture.

You like a girl in your school or `mohalla`, get her number through directories or her friends, initiates it by `lets be friends`, and soon it trascends into love, pure eastern one love for life.

It really does not quite work that way, even back home. I don`t think author has ever been in a serious relationship (yes, a common word back home). I think author is really young and as he matures, he will find out that every relationship is always much more complex and intricate (irrespective of whether it was formed in Hollywood or bollywood) than one initially thinks.

Quote (I`ve interacted with a number of girls here and they just can`t laugh at themself; to them it`s always a matter of respect and insult. Why?? Can`t you girls cool down a litle, light up a little and for heaven`s sake spare the attitude) Unquote

WHAT are you talking about? I wish you would stop generalizing about us ABCD`s and CBCD`s and EBCD`s etc etc The point is We are CD`s. Regardless of whether we are born in Pakistan, brought up in a Muhalla in Gulshan-e-Iqbal or Sea View. Or raised abroad. I agree with Jiyakhan to a certain extent. I do not think all pakistani kids back home behave in this manner but you cannot deny the craziness that is now part of their lives. I feel more desi when I go back and hang out with these people. They are like us only 100 times worse. They are promiscious like its going out of style. Drugs sex and alcohol are a regular part of their partying lifestyle. Gone are the days of peeking into windows to catch a glimpse of the love of your life, crank calling her at odd hours and playing a love song really loud just so she can hear you. Its more like, meet at a the most dimly lit cafe and random making out time in Pakistan. People and especially Mothers who belive they can go back to pakistan to find `shareef` ``gharayloo`` desi brides for their US graduate Jaan kay tukray are gravely mistaken. Coz there is`nt much sharafat laft back home either. Just do with what you got and Pray for the best. Otherwise, there is always divorce. That too is now common at the drop of a hat.

Dear Jiyaa,
I am not the author of that story and my intentions are not there to let any culture or population down. I dont know where you went in Pakistan and whom you saw doing those shameful things but I am sure about one thing that they are very few in no. When we talk in general we dont talk about individuals and 5-10 % of people on either extremes, we talk about the median 80% population and after spending a lot of time in Pakistan as well as in Atlantic Region I can say that the average lot is still far better in Pakistan. But Still I believe all five fingers are not alike as I ve seen very well groomed kids in UK n US. They guys n gals in pakistan who ve lost their direction are those who are ashamed of being pakistanis and muslims but they are very limited in no. Inn the endI strictly regret and condem terms like ABCDs and freshies as these sort of things give hatred not fun. I am sorry if I was a bit harsh. If any one has any problems with my comments, they are most welcome to email me directly at qureshi27@hotmail.com.
Regards
Dr Salman Qureshi
Oxford England

Very interesting, I love how we Abcd`s or well in my case Canadian, are put down. I go to Pakistan every year, and honestly, I was quite naive thinking we really are forward, until I saw it for myself. Guys or Girls living in Pakistan are not as innocent as you`ve put it in your article! Infact, i have meet many girls and guys living in a middle upper class family, who drink, smoke up or have sexual relationship with either of the sexes and its considered quite normal! When did you write this post back in 1970s??? Cuz in 2005 i think it doesnt matter where you live, Pakistani guys and girls all over the world (not all but who chose too) do all those things. Stop putting us down, while every girl in Pakistan looks as if she couldn’t afford enough cloth for her Kameez! for crying out loud give us a break. ppl make those Pakistani girls sound like their innocent and have never even spoken to a guy, while their soo bloody cunning and pathetic (most at least) The amount of Pakistani guys and girls I saw in Pakistan Drunk/High/ Half naked making out, was ridiculous! I think the only difference is that, its quite open here and it is getting to that point in most cities in paki, it already is quite open in lahore, Islamabad and Karachi. Maybe you’re from a village? And as far as religion is concerned, at least here, I haven’t meet a single person who doesn’t believe in Allah (Muslims) but in Pakistan, I meet a few people who didn’t and questioned out religion. So please don’t put us down, you should first talk about the things and HYPOCRIZE that happens in Pakistan. I don’t mean to be rude, but its just not fair. And thx for being sexist! You forget the fobby guys who come from Pakistan and start drinking like their Irish and start dating GORIS lol

I don`t know a single muslim ABCD girl that doesn`t know ``a word of namaz``. I know a few guys however........Anyways, cute article, though.

haha i dont know if this story is real or not, if it is maybe its exaggerated hahah but in any case it made me laugh...hahah good story

I`m not a five times nimazi but to meet a muslim girl who doesn`t know a word of nimaz was the shock of my life. This is one of the most absurd thi8ngs ever written.If you are so in love with ``a girl back home``as you put it,then just marry her.Why are you a)generalising that all desi girls are liberal,gibberish gibberish b)putiing them down You know what if you are so bent upon chaste things in your backyard,then try to act like one too.It will serve you no good confusing yourself between the two worlds.And as you said about,it got my laughing till a long time.Namz like the rest of things religious can not be dropped to accomodate your other duties.It`s either you pray or you don`t.

I agree with you. This thing has been happening with all the girls in USA. This is the fault of the parents to teach their kids about the vaules but we can not blame parents in long run. One day or the other kids have to make their own choices.

Besides girls, guys are also not that good in USA. They are not sincere in relationships either. On the other hand, It is very difficult to find good girl and good guy in this world, either it is pakistan or USA. I have seen many pakistani guys who are damn bad as well as girls.

We should pray to God to give us the right person in our life. No matter how much we try to judge a person we can not read what is inside someone`s heart.

hi there,
wel i realy likd this peice of writing.this is really true that now the so called GENRATION NEXT has lost all the values which are to b there.wel this is really sad to see that there can thses kind of things happenin .this is not the case with girls its with boys as well. there are gaps between the emotions of ppl abroad n here back home .wel i have a first hand experience but not of this type as u had .......but ya i can say tht wat it important to us may not be for them .those small small happy moments that we cherish can be a `yak` thing for them.so this is the case
the westernism that looks so cool to us is actly really not at all cool.......

hi there,
wel i realy likd this peice of writing.this is really true that now the so called GENRATION NEXT has lost all the values which are to b there.wel this is really sad to see that there can thses kind of things happenin .this is not the case with girls its with boys as well. there are gaps between the emotions of ppl abroad n here back home .wel i have a first hand experience but not of this type as u had .......but ya i can say tht wat it important to us may not be for them .those small small happy moments that we cherish can be a `yak` thing for them.so this is the case
the westernism that looks so cool to us is actly really not at all cool.......

Aleph Null,

I also know of a few Indian marriages that were marked by abuse of the wife-roughly the same prop of Pakistani marriages-in couples of varying ethnicities in India and Pakistan and of the prof. class-both spouses.

Aleph Null,

I`m certainly not saying that all FOBS are monolithically male chauvinists and abusive. I will say that the entry of women into professional spheres, adeptness in western cultural and societal institutions, growing economic clout, political engagement and increasing access to choice of reproduction rights, education, political orientation and individual development upset traditional gender roles....I also want to restate my idea of gender equity being ``western``....clearly, there are desis who dont subscribe to traditional gender roles...my comments were directed at ``traditional desi culture adherents``.

I also appreciate your critique of alterity analysis-but that does not mean that we should ignore conflicts that run along gender role expectations....

Raw_Dust #62

Insecure possessiveness about ‘your’ women – particularly in conditions of scarcity – is a condition I understand at a gut level and readily acknowledge. It’s probably a human cultural universal. It doesn’t require a trans-cultural situation to set it off – it’s quite enough that the business of finding a partner is usually a zero-sum game.

I was more interested in a quite different assertion (or suggestion) – that FOB men from ‘South Asia’ might be (especially) intimidated by accomplished, professionally qualified or successful women (of whatever background). This is an issue distinct from possessiveness triggered by scarcity or sexual jealousy. I’d have held my peace if Saminasha had referred only to Pakistanis, of whom I know too few to comment with any authority. Her suggested stereotype just doesn’t fit what I’ve seen of the majority of my male (Indian) classmates. These were people with impressive qualifications, plentiful energy and initiative, very good future prospects. When the time came for them to settle down, many of them spent considerable time and effort – sometimes for years - trying to locate partners with qualifications resembling their own. A small fraction succeeded; many of the others eventually had to settle for spouses who were far from being their equals in intelligence or qualifications or accomplishments. They may be content wth what they have or at any rate resigned to their fate. In my opinion many of these men might have had a far easier time if they’d not idealised marriage as an equal relationship, and aimed from the very beginning for wives who were not their peers. Just my cynical and very un-PC anecdotally-based opinion.

Saminasha #58

{{I also have witnessed first hand, some disasterous and abusive marriages among abcds and fobs. Usually they run along the lines of the husband intimidated by his abcd wife who is a citizen, is comfortable in being able to politically, economically, socially active. … In these cases, the husband usually becomes insufferably religious in order to salve a bruised ego, insists his wife clean and cook or accept his reign in some way or another...all in the name of ``authenticity``...and these situations occur often among prof women.}}

and hamdim #59:

Multiple instances of the ‘usual’ syndrome Saminasha described may very well exist –we are after all talking of a very large base population here. It is not clear that it’s the dominant syndrome. I’ve heard at second hand of a calamitous and ultimately failed marriage between a FOB Indian woman and a Canadian-bred man, where the woman was expected to cook, clean and touch her inlaws’ feet while simultaneously working towards an MD. Does that sound plausible? There are lots of variables involved here – it’s not clear whether FOB-ness or being of male persuasion or the involvement of people from a particular generational cohort is the primary culprit. There is also the effect of the part of the subcontinent one comes from – something that the ‘South Asian’ label sweeps under the carpet. Incidentally there is a known tendency for each generation of FOB immigrants from the subcontinent to display attitudes frozen in a time capsule corresponding to their date of immigration, while the social environment of the mother country is in rapid flux. The full range of consequences of this effect may not be widely recognized.

I also know of a few apparently happy - so far – ABD-FOB marriages, in both directions – as well as a large number of other marriages of all kinds with various long-term outcomes. All anecdotal.

I’ve absolutely no objection to people using stereotypes based on their anecdotal experience – I do it myself. A stereotype – such as ‘male chauvinistic insecure FOB’ - is a working hypothesis used to impose a semblance of comprehensible order on a very messy set of phenomena. Likewise with explanatory models – the beginnings of theories – sucb as ‘traditional patriarchy’. But the reality out there may be more complex than can be described by a single stereotype or accounted for by a single explanatory model. I could imagine a ‘unimodal’ universe where all instances cluster, to varying degrees, around one dominant stereotype, generated by a single explanatory model. I could just as well conceive of a ‘multimodal’ universe where there is more than one widespread stereotype and there are distinct clusters around those stereotypes without much of a continuum between them. One cannot claim that a particular stereotype is representative or dominant without a rigorous study, and any claims made in its absence remain anecdotal.

I apologise for the insufferable pedantry of the stuff above – I’m trying to convey my sense of the messiness of the world out there and the difficulty of making sense of it from purely anecdotal experience.

Incidentally, I’ve lost count of the number of times hamidm has exclaimed “Gosh, the woman is smart!” or words to that effect in reference to Mrs hamidm. I rather doubt he resents or is intimidated by the smartness – he’s more likely to be rather pleased by it. There’s another counterexample to the insecure FOB stereotype for you.

Saminasha #58

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply.

{{1. While India might provide access towards education and prof career opportunities for SOME classes, does it provide these mechanisms for ALL classes? Theoretically, No. America does. The whole mythology of this country is based on the idea that economic success can be achieved regardless of one`s particulars.}}

I readily concede that India doesn’t provide access for ALL classes, while in theory the American dream is supposed to be accessible to every citizen. However America DOES NOT – either in fact or in theory - provide equal access to the American dream for all classes of would-be immigrants – particularly those from the Indian subcontinent. Those Indians who manage to make it to through the golden door are very likely to be drawn from established professional backgrounds or (more recently) the growing rapidly upwardly mobile middle class.

I submit that these very people are most likely to already concede the importance of education and professional opportunities for women, and to subscribe to the ideal of marriage between equals. Some of them might have a longer family history of female higher education than their typical American counterparts. It’s far from obvious that a randomly chosen male Indian FOB would me more intimidated or threatened by educated or professionally qualified women than, for example, a randomly chosen male drawn from the general US population would be. A rigorous comparative study would be quite interesting.

{{2. … For some of its citizenry, India does provide opportunity - for too many others, it doesnt. I`ll hazard it has to do with widespread poverty, lack of resources, and money that is ear marked for ITT instituitions and nuclear weapons programs rather than boring old social welfare programs.}}

IMO massive corruption - theft of resources earmarked for social welfare (primary health, schools and such) and infrastructure (drinking water, roads) has much more to do with this state of affairs than the miniscule amounts spent on nuclear weapons or IITs (which is what I think you meant, not ITTs). But for the reasons I outlined above, that does not have much relevance to Indian FOB attitudes – Indian FOBs, of either gender, are likely to be drawn from those who were given opportunities in the first place.

{{3. … I am a child of an equitable marriage. Both my parents earned the same degrees, the same income, clocked in the same amount of hours. It worked because both parents BELIEVED in equity, despite their Indian/Pakistani roots.}}

FWIW, my mother earned medals and the highest honours throughout her academic career (she was a science wonk, BTW). She worked for a decade and a half while I was growing up – at my father’s urging, and at a level far below what she was capable of. It’s not for me to judge whether my parents had an equitable marriage, but my father was certainly very supportive. I have aunts and other female relatives who won academic distinction comparable to my mother’s, had full-fledged careers, and are formidable personalities to boot – and I set my own expectations accordingly. I don’t think my background is exceptional. Your remark “despite their Indian … roots” just doesn’t capture my slice of reality.

Re: # 64 gypsy_heart: well said,

i personally think that there are some who probably hold their own well being as their only concern and they have to go that way bulldozing everything else. the right term for this is `babu culture`. these people are bestowed with the nature of worshipping every rising sun and will not stop at anything if it is in the way of their well being. some will even start hating who they really were and to some extent still are.

or there might be some who are put in a particular situation that the only way to justify it is to hold such garbage as the truth. we all have our prejudices, but this one is sad.

and whats wrong with educating your children about your culture, traditions and religion?? above 18 it`s their choice but if you do it the right way and if you practice it just as you want them to, means no hypocricy, they will absolutely follow it.

can anyone please tell me whats american culture?? i mean besides thanksgiving what is a distinctive feature of american culture and traditions??

don`t christians push their kids into religion, then whats wrong with a muslim pushing his kids to masjid?? i`m sorry to say my white friends can quote on everything from bible but desi kids are still confused if beer is allowed or its just nasha depending on what they`ve heard from others, how many have actually done the effort of reading Quran and searching by themself. jews have their synagogues, orientals have china towns, irish, scottish, hispanics, italians, you name it and they are all keeping their traditions alive, it`s a country of immigrants we are all here to learn the best from other cultures and contribute with the best we have.

but if someone himself is disgusted by his religion and culture, then obviously he will teach the same to his kids and they`ll grow mirroring his teachings, theirs nothing wrong in listening to greenday or garbage, metallica and tool are my favourites but they don`t stop me from praying or make me curse in every other sentence.

i don`t understand this gender dominance issue, yes there are egoistical and insecure males but are they only breeded in subcontinent?? there are none in NA?? where are more divorces happening everyday?? this article came from me and my mom had been working for past 20 years in an executive position, forget my mom my dadi was a phd and a very active philanthropist and my dada a bachelors, but theirs relationship was perfect, the issue here is not money or education, but respect and love, if your spouse is willing to respect and love you for what you are and give your family the same respect you give, the relationship will always be wonderful.

hamidm sir: thank you for your kind reply. i appreciate.

AlephNull: comparing desi-fobs with other groups like fob-latinos or maybe i dont know... would be curious. If someone has any info on other groups plz. share. My own understanding is purely anecdotal as you would say; desi pakistanis (men specially) are very conflicted when it comes to ``Their`` women. They become overyl-religous as the mainstream society doesnt carry the same hypocritical/selective religiosity attitudes as they were grown accustomed to back in their mother country Pakistan. The doting-mothers phenomenon as pointed out by hamidm is also a major factor.

but what will an abcd do if one is employed in US airforce and is orderred to drop a bomb on Islamabad someday?

Hamid,

Yes, there are some lovely desi men married to abcds...too rare unfor.

Re: # 58

alephnull,

........... i agree with saminasha that, generally speaking, fob men tend to be rather insecure and have a hard time coping with professional women who are financially independent and won`t put up with their bs .......... actually most desi men ``back home` are brought up to think that their doo doesn`t stink and are indoctrinated by doting mothers who want to pass on their own miserable lives to their daughters-in-law...........

....... i too have seen many horrible examples of marriages between fob men and paki/indian-american girls (the term abcd is silly) where the husbands and their families act like a bunch of bride-burning madrasis on a rampage ............... one should not generalize, and i am sure that there are some decent fobs who are not intimidated by women, but they seem to be few and far between ........

Aleph Null,

Oho Sahib...I didnt know you cared that much...

1. While India might provide access towards education and prof career opportunities for SOME classes, does it provide these mechanisms for ALL classes? Theoretically, No. America does. The whole mythology of this country is based on the idea that economic success can be achieved regardless of one`s particulars. I think this promise is worthy of trying to achieve thru our social programs, institutions, etc.,-although I tend to agree with Barbara Ehrenreich, Julius Wilson and David Shipler that it difficult for working class communities to break thru to higher income brackets.

2. You dont like this, but too bad. For some of its citizenry, India does provide opportunity-for too many others, it doesnt. I`ll hazard it has to do with widespread poverty, lack of resources, and money that is ear marked for ITT instituitions and nuclear weapons programs rather than boring old social welfare programs. If you`d like to compare India and the US, by all means, do so.

3. re: equity. I am a child of an equitable marriage. Both my parents earned the same degrees, the same income, clocked in the same amount of hours. It worked because both parents BELIEVED in equity, despite their Indian/Pakistani roots. This mutuality carried them through professional achievement, domestic management, religious worship, cultural affiliations, the unimaginative and uncomfortably threatened in laws who were intimidated by two equally active spouses. I really had little time for domestic sphere vs public sphere power ``models``, because my mother didnt have to play those games-nor were she and my father were too busy voting, being politically active and trying to bring fam here to study.
So I have first hand knowlege of how sucessful and visionary an equal partnership can be.

I also have witnessed first hand, some disasterous and abusive marriages among abcds and fobs. Usually they run along the lines of the husband intimidated by his abcd wife who is a citizen, is comfortable in being able to politically, economically, socially active. She is able to move thru many different communities, millieus, identities, etc. which in itself is a challenge to the prescribed roles too many women are expected to adhere to in traditionally patriarchal communities. In these cases, the husband usually becomes insufferably religious in order to salve a bruised ego, insists his wife clean and cook or accept his reign in some way or another...all in the name of ``authenticity``...and these situations occur often among prof women...

Saminasha #54

Let me reiterate a request from an earlier post (#45). You asked in #32:

{{How many Fobs are 1. intimidated by the incomes and professional standing of desi women in north america 2. marry and despise/are intimidated/objectify their wives for the capability?}}

In #45, I’d asked you for your take on the answers to your own questions. I’d like to repeat that request. Would you care to compare fobs with any other appropriate group of your choice as far as these attitudes are concerned? Are your opinions anecdotally-derived, or do you belive they have an objective basis? How generally applicable are they? And what is this stuff you’ve been reading?

{{and yet the explicit eco/soc/pol. parity becomes the reason why abcds are not ``like`` fobs....I wonder-what is so simple and natural about inequity? Why is it so romanticized?}}

I also suspect (and I may well be wrong) that you may have not thought through some of the consequences of expectations of ‘equity’ or ‘explicit eco/soc/pol/parity’ in a relationship. We can look at that if you deign to answer my question in the previous paragraph.

Saminasha #54

{{Dont have a lot of time to discuss.}}

It’s so much easier to find time for banter on UP, isn’t it?

You wrote in #34 that

{{For South Asian immigrant men, interactions with american desi women may be fraught because traditional power dynamics are reversed.}}

You have explained neither why “traditional power dynamics are reversed” nor why interactions (between FOB men and American bred desi women) should necessarily be fraught (‘difficult, stressed, charged’) in consequence.

{{Basically, in NA desi women have equal access to education, somewhat acceptable chances at prof. employment, vote, can organize, worship where and how they want, choose to socialize with whom they choose, live alone.}}

The last I heard, women in India could vote. Access to education and professional employment was determined far more by social class than by gender. Women from my peer group and background were not routinely discouraged from acquiring an education or seeking employment matching their qualifications. My information is anecdotal, of course; it might even be antiquated. I can’t speak for other countries in the subcontinent.

{{It’s a whole different ballgame here.}}

That is a trivial observation – it’s a whole different country, after all. Unfortunately that does not explain why some specific relationships are prone to being especially troubled

hamidm,

your position on this is justified on some moral grounds but it remains a source of desparation for me.

Aleph Null,

Dont have a lot of time to discuss. Basically, in NA desi women have equal access to education, somewhat acceptable chances at prof. employment, vote, can organize, worship where and how they want, choose to socialize with whom they choose, live alone. A growing number are even choosing who they`ll marry thru their own networks, regardless of familial, cultural, caste or community approval.

Most desi women in NA who are struggling with emotional, economic, cultural obstacles in reaching these goals can rely on fairly extensive institutional and grassroots supports.

These opportunities are available to desi women largely irrespective of class, religion, caste or marital status.

Its a whole different ballgame here.

Re: # 51

......... call it intellectual laziness .............the alternatives are equally bad and starting your own church or masjid takes a lot of money ...........

Re: # 50 murshad,

what you say is probably correct but there are things which you are explicitly or implicitly don`t want to consider as factors while making such decision. it`s not that simple.

you rightly suggest that minds of the children are a subject to the conditions around them. this means if they grow up there, they will by something similar to us and if they grow up here, they will be similar to gora sahib, of cource not completely. for them, it really doesn`t matter. if you tell them that mo of mecca was an idiot, they will know exactly that and if you tell them that he was the only superman this world has seen than....

if you base your opinion on material well being in the world, no doubt that this is the place. but when you say the words like `us`, `our children`, then you know that you are something different than gora. you are not the gora not matter what. but when you feel it okay to make your kids as goras, this on one side means giving them a wonderful life but from the other perspective, this is like donating your family tree to the nation of gora. i don`t feel okay with this at all. the tree has grown on a land for centuries so why extract it and put it somewhere else and specially when it really doesn`t matter.

good life or bad life, hope or hoplessness, money or no money, easy life or hardcore experiences of life, nustrat fateh ali khan or ray charls, sattar or voilen, does it really matter?

okay, lets end the disagreement by agreeing on one thing. you don`t value this aspect of human nature which makes you think that you are a part of something, some group and you should be where you belong, however disgusting that group might look. these associations are not real. you think that at this point in time, some nations are ``better`` than others and it`s okay to merge into the betters. and you think it`s the right thing for the kids to do to make them a part of the ``better`` world.

my view is that ``better`` stems from our associations which are rooted into our evolutionary natures. i want to respect these associations. i want my children to have a world view coherent with mine so that i can communicate with them in real terms. i think it is not an injustice with my kids to make them a part of the ``lowly`` group because i think it doesn`t really matter. what matters is my tendency because for my kids, at least when they are under 8 years of age, i am completely in charge and i have the right to be. there`s no injustice, prejudice or crualty in that.

relativity murshad, relativity !

re #50 hamidm
``heck, i won`t even give up being a muslim even though, like i have often said, i have some serious problems with the character of the prophet ............``

i am curious and excuse me you can ignore this query if you dont like to tell - but what exactly could stop you to do that?


AlephNull: yea. exactly what the hell is this `traditional power dynamics` that is `reversed` (?) in NA? .. heh straaaange...

Re: # 49

malikj,

......... good luck to you if you think you can impose your world-view on your children ...... personally, i don`t think it is fair and it really doesn`t serve any puropse ........

........... when people say i am ``proud`` of my culture i just look at them with wonder ........... what the heck is there to be proud of ?.......... cut out the crap !..... we are comfortable (that wet and warm feeling again !) with the language, the food, the music and all that other stuff simply because we grew up with it - it was not some great achievement on our part that deserves a prize ........... and just like us, our children are comfotable in the environment they were born into - and it is obviously a much better environment than the one we left behind, otherwise we wouldn`t be here .... right?.............. you and i will stick to our silly savage ways because we just can`t help it - heck, i won`t even give up being a muslim even though, like i have often said, i have some serious problems with the character of the prophet ............

......... i think our children are much better off without being subjected to our ``values`` .......... they can get all the exposure they need by watching a bollywood film once a year ........ last year we took them to see `bombay dreams` and a couple of weeks ago we dragged them kicking and screaming to see `bride and prejudice` - that is enough exposure to desi culture ......... it is bad enough that they have to eat ``urdu food`` at least three times a week ..........

Re: # 48 murshad,

a determined man can jump out of the window, kill another man, invent a religion and worse can drink his own piss. so, i think you can`t be so certain of people`s weaknesses. it is hard but it is achievable.

your family is like a plan which usually disperses it`s seeds in the surroundings where the next plants spring up. if an immegrant extracts this plant from the roots and tries to grow it in a far far land, he is doing some injustice to it. true that this forign soil is more enriched and will nourish the plant like no other, but it`s not the owner of the plant. i at least don`t think that i have the right to do that. even if nothing is stopping me from it.

and if you are comming from the point of view that we are all the citizon`s of the world and it really doesn`t matter which language, culture or land, then your thinking is understandable. but then it gives me a strange feeling when i see you here, interacting with those third-world scumbags. why? don`t you have a forum which better suits your Saladin Chamcha world view?

Re: # 46

malikj

``so, i have a flawed policy but having this thought makes me most comfortable``......... you are right ........ it is like pissing in your pants - it give you a nice warm feeling, but you know it is going to stink in a little while !...........

................ i just hope you won`t be too disappointed when you have kids of your own who don`t know ghalib from the garbage man who comes every tuesday and, even worse, don`t care ........and hopefully you will master the art of pronouncing ``w`` so that you don`t have get any grief from your kids for asking for a glass of vater .............

Muzammil -

Thank you for an interesting perspective.

The following passage was quite hilarious.

[Now, the love stories here are as different as hollywood from bollywood. The complications here are of a different kind; they dont include parents, limitations or privacies; they grow from paranoias and insecurities. My love vocabulary increased tenfold here, with words like relationship (it was always love, what the hell is a relationship?), breakups (no breakups in pakistan, either you marry the girl or her parents marry her to someone else), ex (noone kisses a hundred frogs there to find a prince charming), and you dont need to know a person`s favourite music and movies to be in love. I was astonished when I first heard this; ``Irfan janu, I love you but I`m not in love with you``; my poor soul still can`t figure out the difference. And I was petrified when I first heard the F word from her beautiful mouth, which was really a prelude towards my enlightment with curses; she doesnt believe it but I swear to God I had never before heard any woman curse! being called stupid idiot and dork was bad enough for my ego.]

By the way, one has to kiss a hundred and one frogs to find the ``real`` prince charming. You were off by one. Well, if you were the 101th frog then that is a big concern :)

Re: # 39

but murshad,

our kids are supposed to be our property, at least to some extend, at least when they are young. a little kid is no different from a pet, it is up to you to teach him how to jump for something you throw in the air, or to use some deserted corner to meet their excretry needs. then what is wrong with having a policy in trying to make their personalities? just that one looks unreal, unnatural, flawed over the other? that`s what all humans are like. there are no standards out there for reality or correctness (let`s exclude ntsyed here). you gotta make them for yourself and live it. that`s how we play.

take my example. i want an 80-20 % partitioning in my kids about being paki or westi. i want them to have a taste of everything eastern except hardcore religion. i want them to have strong roots and identity, a belonging, even if it doesn`t have an inbuilt pride in it. but i know that if they only taste pakistan, they will be insignificant for the world.

so, i have a flawed policy but having this thought makes me most comfortable. probably people who witness first and start thinking later may have different ways of looking at this. but murshad, i am not at all convinced !

Saminasha #34

{{For South Asian immigrant men, interactions with american desi women may be fraught because traditional power dynamics are reversed.}}

What is the “traditional power dynamics” (in ‘South Asia’, presumably)? Why would you expect it to be reversed in North America?

{{I`ve been reading with interest how these dynamics are coded by some:

… and yet the explicit eco/soc/pol. parity becomes the reason why abcds are not ``like`` fobs}}

The stuff you’ve been reading … does it claim to have any rigorous objective basis, or is it just anecdotal?


Saminasha #32

{{How many Fobs are 1. intimidated by the incomes and professional standing of desi women in north america 2. marry and despise/are intimidated/objectify their wives for the capability?}}

Would you care to give your own answers to these questions – in as rigorous and precise, or as loose and impressionistic a fashion as you prefer?

Amit,

Your example of the the blonde and the punjabi is an exception and not the rule-and as another interactor rightly pointed out, the dynamic of two people who apparently were performing stereotypical roles and expectations. In all these discussions of desi/gori, there seeems to be a discomfort with the idea that these relationships might be based in authentic and genunine mutuality, respect and yes, dare I say it?, love.

You also seem fixated on the idea that women marry for money and power. Not true. In fact, this claim is more a generalization than anything. Women marry for all kinds of reasons, and a good many of them marry ``nice`` guys. In North America, its much more possible to transcend class, race and religious commandments-which is why you see marriages across eco, ethnic and interdenominational lines here. Rather than focusing on the nice guy theory, I suggest you look at what it means when desi have a choice about who they marry and what their criterion is in North America. Its a great deal more complex than easy dismissals.

As for your last comment, I know a sixty year old Pakistani women, a zabardast chef who is an American citizen. Her opinions were quite fixed and loudly communicated. She dumped her teeth in a jar of water and Polident tablets at night and changed her shalwar kameez every two days. That didnt seem to dissuade her green card seeking admirer, 15 years younger. She declined.

Amit.....yaar what you said on your general observation that women across cultures and throughout history have been geared by over-riding societal tradition to seek out males that can ``protect and nurture`` them...is indeed true. However my friend...you surely know as well as I do, that characteristic is indeed evolving within global societies with the advent of the industrialised societies and the modern developed state. Its a simple fact from the developed West to the newly developed East Asian states, women are far more educated, earn incomes that can provide for themselves comfortably. What is the logical outcome?....they end marrying later, and to who they precisely want to marry. Bringing it all down to a simpler state...this is not only about marriage but the general outlook and worldview that women have growing on average in say Pakistan or even India..versus the West. You are going on about your one Panju friend back from your college days. You have to admit that hot blonde goris running after big fat unattractive desis is an oddity...I did my undergrad in the States a few years..so have many friends..and Im sure a large portion of interactors here...and the idea of the hot cheerleaders running after horizontally challenged desis aint too common. On the other hand..just look at the sheer number even in this day..of cute 20 year old indian and pak girls...to be honest more of the latter..marrying some 35 year old...run down has been..paunch..receding hairline and all.....all in the name of what....``A SUITABLE MATCH``..........and believe this is going to change....not maybe today or tommorow but in the next 30 odd years when our female literacy and educational enrollment rates double along with overall industrialiation and development of our states occurs...causing most importantly an evolution in societal values and traditions from their current backward state.

Re: # 23
nicely said! I love the way you said that and cannot agree with it more! being an abcd who has moved back to her homeland, i have know alot of abcd`s who are not as confused as everyone out there seems to portray them, in fact compare them to the Pakistani born American influenced confused desi`s (PAIC`s) and they seem quite normal and stable.

I read this story and was confused........., the girl he was describing could be from an upper class family from lahore, karachi or even islamabad,indeed he must be from a small rural city in Pakistan, girls swearing, saying hte F word, hes never heard that here? hmmmmmmmmmm that is unusual,

(After Hamidm’s post there is really nothing to add to this board but …)

Guy! You have absolutely horrendous motor skills. Obviously, as Hamidm has suggested you were raised in Lalokhet and your parents failed to infuse some social, moral, and cultural values in to your upbringing i.e. if they actually knew those values themselves.
There are plenty of People of Pakistani origin in this country who chose to raise their kids w/o any religious influence. Even in Pakistan, you will find people who have done that and their kids are completely free of any religion or religious influence.

My advice to you:
Stop thinking from your D1ck! And
Always control your hand that moves towards your crotch when you see and talk to a girl.

....... take the first boat back to lalukhet or gujranwala ........

........... what the heck is an abcd ?.......... why should first generation paki or indian-americans be any different from first generation italian-americans or polish-americans ? ...... just because they are a little brown on the outside and their parents stink up the neighborhood with their offal cooking ?............

............ look, i am grateful to our kids for letting us drag them around to the masjid and to various auntie`s and uncle`s houses when they were little and making them eat half-baked tandoori chicken ................. it was a horrible thing to do, but we did it because it made life easier for us and may the good lord forgive us for not taking them to see the nutcracker every christmas like normal kids ................... but now to expect them to behave like anything other than regular american kids is kind of silly ..........to expect them to prefer qorma over hamburgers, and speak urdu instead of english, and listen to nusrat fateh ali instead of green day, is asking a bit much, isn`t it ?........... heck, after having been here for twenty five odd years, even i have a difficult time carrying on a decent conversation in urdu without throwing in english and then resorting to punjabi for proper emphasis ........... who needs urdu and who needs qorma? ..... you can`t even get a job a the corner 7-eleven if you can`t speak english (not that it is stopping some idiots from trying) and i will take a medium-rare ribeye any day over qorma made with shan`s mystery masala ............

......... let`s just accept the fact that these kids are as american as joe`s kids next door and if they put up with our paki or indian bs it is out of the goodness of their heart ............ as for the fobs and other flotsam who are whining about our kids, i have a piece of advice : take the first boat back to lalukhet or gujranwala and leave our kids alone !

Re:saminasha#36

You said,``So why are abcd women ``money hungry`` and green card seeking fobs not?``

My point is that women naturally tend to gravitate towards men with money and power, while mostly ignoring simple guys who are nice and caring. This is true everywhere but more so in the US where there is an obsession with materialism. Clearly in my example, that blond girl was willing to overlook all the cultural differences with that fat Delhite and overlook his physical appearance. She even overlooked his obnoxious personality. I know women have a sixth sense about such things even though they may not understand the language. So basically it all boiled down to the fact that he was loaded and was willing to spend exorbitant amounts on her at the drop of a hat.

Green card seeking fobs are certainly there but unless they are illegal immigrants, there is a limit to how much they are willing to put up for a green card. There are not too many desi guys who will marry a fat, loud mouth, obnoxious woman just for a green card.

#36. i think the equation is not strictly about women vs. men.
i would go for brought-up that probably have more to do with creating different value-systems than gender. figures.

Raw Dust,

Exactly. So why are abcd women ``money hungry`` and green card seeking fobs not?

Re: #34
``Why is it so romanticized?``

because the old world loves its tribal ways... it is puportedly about ``values``, ``caring``, ``devotion``, ``belonging to a group/family/tribe/religousblah/ethnicity`` etc. ...

these notions Supposedly do not exist in western societies... check out what Amit is saying on this board....

Mahesh,

For South Asian immigrant men, interactions with american desi women may be fraught because traditional power dynamics are reversed. I`ve been reading with interest how these dynamics are coded by some:

1. ``authencity`` of culture, religion, gender roles
2. what and who defines these interactions

and yet the explicit eco/soc/pol. parity becomes the reason why abcds are not ``like`` fobs....I wonder-what is so simple and natural about inequity? Why is it so romanticized?

Samina, what do you mean by your second point?

I think many Fob men are quite decent and have very modern outlook on gender roles.

Mahesh,

I agree. How many Fobs are 1. intimidated by the incomes and professional standing of desi women in north america 2. marry and despise/are intimidated/objectify their wives for the capability?

Amit, if the girl understood what your friend was saying about her she would have kicked his butt.

Your observation about moolah and the US might be valid but it is valid anywhere in the world.

Atleast in the US, women are quite capable of earning for themselves are more likely to not put up with humiliation irrespective of how much money the men are showering on them.

Muzammil,

I really enjoyed reading this. Apart from the fact that it`s written with a good sense of humor, you`ve made some astute observations. I was speaking to a friend who just moved to the US from Pakistan. He`s a playa by most standards but when I asked him how things were he said he was lonely. ``Inn logon ko hamari tarah dosti karni nahin aati.``

Re:Saj1981

Sirjee, I will give you an example. I used to attend Purdue University in Indiana for my grad school a long time back. At that time, while we were poor Indian graduate students struggling to get by, there was one Punjabi undergraduate student from Delhi, Pritash. Pritash was the ultimate crude guy. He was a big guy physically, very fat and a complete loudmouth. But he was also super rich since his dad was a big shot industrialist in Delhi.

Pritash had a cool car and was dating a beautiful blond gori, whom he used to treat like complete garbage. But she would hang on to him all the time. Sometimes he would bring this girl to our apartment and in front of us give her gaalis and curses in hindi while smiling at her. He would be saying in hindi - ``Isko table per nangi nachate hain!!``, while holding her hand. Poor girl never knew what he was saying and would smile back. We used to feel terrible about it but we realized that he had the moolah and was willing to shower it on her and user her like a piece of meat. On the other hand there were many nice guys like us, who could not even get a girl to acknowledge them. That`s the power of money!!

re:25
On the contrary my friend, after having lived both in the West and East for long enough, I think its sadly obvious that there is both much greater social mobility and resultant societal acceptance of inter-class marriage in the West, than there will ever be in the East...especially India and Pakistan for that matter. For god sakes just about every arranged marriage is based on a ``suitable husband``.....i.e...well educated + loaded husband....how many fat middle aged desi husbands have u seen with pretty 15 year younger wives.....uncountable huh...come to the middle east....if ur in any doubt......were those marriages based on love and/or physical attraction...i doubt it......far more chance of seeing the gardner`s son marry an accountant`s daughter in the States or England.....just an observation.

re:24
On the contrary my friend, after having lived both in the West and East for long enough, I think its sadly obvious that there is both much greater social mobility and resultant societal acceptance of inter-class marriage in the West, than there will ever be in the East...especially India and Pakistan for that matter. For god sakes just about every arranged marriage is based on a ``suitable husband``.....i.e...well educated + loaded husband....how many fat middle aged desi husbands have u seen with pretty 15 year younger wives.....uncountable huh...come to the middle east....if ur in any doubt......were those marriages based on love and/or physical attraction...i doubt it......far more chance of seeing the gardner`s son marry an accountant`s daughter in the States or England.....just an observation.

re:24
On the contrary my friend, after having lived both in the West and East for long enough, I think its sadly obvious that there is both much greater social mobility and resultant societal acceptance of inter-class marriage in the West, than there will ever be in the East...especially India and Pakistan for that matter. For god sakes just about every arranged marriage is based on a ``suitable husband``.....i.e...well educated + loaded husband....how many fat middle aged desi husbands have u seen with pretty 15 year younger wives.....uncountable huh...come to the middle east....if ur in any doubt......were those marriages based on love and/or physical attraction...i doubt it......far more chance of seeing the gardner`s son marry an accountant`s daughter in the States or England.....just an observation.

Re:#23

Basically in a relationship in USA, what really matters is money, the almighty dollar. If you have moolah....lets say you are successful and make > $100K per year, then you can pretty much get anyone you want - desi, gori, ABCD, chinese or whatever catches your fancy. It doesnt matter if you are thin, fat, short, tall, as long as your paycheck is big, you drive a cool car and you are willing to spend the money on the woman, you are all set. If you dont have moolah, all these other extreneous issues come up...

Re: # 23 well said

I`m not trying to label american borned desis as confused, they have their reasons for the way they are, on the contrary my dear friends who knows every word of quran, but spends ten hours a day chatting trying their best to hit on girls, they want to keep their pakistani and islamic tradition alive here but can`t resist brushing their groin in clubs, wants to marry a virgin but can`t wait to loose their virginity, are the biggest hypocrites and the most confused.

lots of american borned desis are intelligent, smart and sucessful and not confused at all, and respect their traditions, culture and religion and even practice them in a moderate way, but its the parent`s responsibility to introduce their kids to their culture, in the cases where parents gets too involved with their gas stations or medical practices, their kids will obviously find too much fun among their friends, and their own culture will sound stupid and too restrictive to them.

Re: # 21

streamy* => steamy

sorry to interupt you all again!

was just following another rather ``hot and streamy`` discussion on some other forum, thought is somewhat relevent to the discussion going on here on cultural identities. may it provide feed for your soul today...

http://www.yespakistan.com/forpakistan/havekids.asp

follow the comments of the above aritcle and have a nice read.

cheers

--``never forget that only dead fish swim with the stream``--

malikjahanzeb #19,
I agree with you. To quote the author, ``I don`t mean to criticise any individual or any culture, my intention in this articile is to press on the cultural differences between two individuals of the same color and family background; and their journey of discovering each other.``
and then he goes on to say this ``I can`t understand why Pakistani parents here are so oblivious about teaching their children their own language`` and ``I can`t understand why Pakistani parents here are so oblivious about teaching their children their own language``

which shows that the author essentially wants abcds to be like people in south asia. As though something`s wrong if they can`t speak a south asian language. The author needs to get out of this fetish of trying to educate abcds and instead treat them as mature people who can take care of what they need.

Re: # 18

but still people have their likes and dislikes. just can`t get rid of them. the guy wants a desi girl who would give him the status of her psudo god. nothing wrong with that. it`s achievable.

but the guy will be completely wrong when he will grow his children into abcds.

i pitty abcds because they don`t have a perspective to put themselves in. they have only the history of less than 100 years. i am not looking down on them, but the nature does. they can`t relate to george washinghton neither can they relate to baba bhulle shah.

some grow into fanatic muslims and they try to find their roots in saudi arabia. what a barren place to find one`s roots in.

pitty....pitty.....pitty

living in canada, my first priority is to make my children sub-continental.

w00t! Brother you really hit the nail on that last paragraph,
what stood out to me as the climax was:
`` Both are wrong, cause both personalities are
products of their own distinct environments``
I wish people would understand that
respect for another comes from
respecting their differences,
not trying to make them mirror you!

good stuff man.
enjoyed reading this one. keep giving us more of the good stuff

no fob is not, like literally.

Re: # 14,
and the term fob isn`t?

why fobs become all so condescending when it comes to abcds? i mean even the term ABCD in itself is offensive.

bas itni si hai meri mohabbat ki dastaan
aik shakhs tha jo dard-e-judai de gyaa.