A Journey Through Our Conscience

echo and t,

thansk guys, but no worries, i will not resort to cut/past unless really really necessary, it`s just that i had some poetry of ghalib in the form of urdu images which i wanted to put on my iLog and hence the need for that stuff. but seems like i still need to look for some online space to place my stuff their first.

kaalchakra,

thanks for the appreciation, butyou didn`t provide us a link for #128 ! really tragic...

and by the way guys, yesterday i was trying putting links on my own and i think i crashed chowk`s website in doing that, something i never wanted to do :-). i hope they would have fixed the vulneribility now.

echoboom

Bhai, I am very depressed right now. Just heard a friend talk about a recent story on TV. An Indian woman, under the influence of some mthrfuking tantric, it seems, sacrified her little son....

All ability to reason fails at such points.

Merciless exposure of facts...that`s one of the best and most appropriate phrases anyone has coined on chowk. That`s all we have to go by...Thanks.

Hello chusni/echoboom

blood?

Pakistan is a very advanced country. It has been progressing in the right direction. A lot of higher-education can be obtained in certain departments.

What would one call this? Of course it is not as heinous as a rape but nevertheless something to ponder and pontificate about.

Gist of this news item:

Three dacoits grab hold of a farmer and rob him of three bottles of his blood. They were armed and equipped wiith blood-testing machines.

Pakistan is a very advanced country. It has been progressing in the right direction. A lot of higher-education can be obtained in certain departments.

Most likely India is still way backward in these sylabii. Any Indians ( esp. Hindus) would like to share their side of such progress.

Pakistan desperately needs a conquerer , an outside conquerer, in keeping up with its ancient tradition of welcoming foreign invaders. If those invaders were stopped at the frontier which is now Pakistan India, as it is now, would have never been subjugated.

DostMittar and Kalachakraa, if reading this must acknowledge my merciless exposure of facts.

malik saheb # 121

Aapka jawab nahi.

You have a fanastic intuitive sense of how societal structure, social norms, and individual will all work together.

You have a sense of Time. Sometimes I wonder if they took the whole concept of Time out and excised it from places!

mj:

please...please...please if you respect others don`t innundate with cut n pastes...

best is to make a point in your own words...if you have to, then just post the links;)

here is how you do it:

get the html link to the article you wish to quote...for instance this article link is:

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004983&channel=civic%20center#interacts

now paste this link here like this:

[a href=http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004983&channel=civic%20center#interacts>add a short title or heading[/a]

this is an illustration for you -- change [ and ] with < and > when you do it and paste the link

this is how it`ll appear

and while am at it, for italics use [i] at the begining and [/i] at the end of the passage, similarly for bold [b] and [/b] and for underline [u] and [/u] ... do not forget to rep[lace [ and ] with < and >

good luck

t

122:MalikJahanzeb

It is very easy:

Cut and paste the relevant URL ( the link appearing on top column: usualy starts with http)

The use < and > as brackets to enclose this command: < a href=``URL`` > Click < / a >

Just remember to eliminate the space between < and other letters as well as between other letters and >.

For example the page you are on is:

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004983&channel=civic%20center#interacts

This is the url: Do this:

< a href=``http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004983&channel=civic%20center#interacts`` >click < / a >

C & paste one immediately above and eliminate space and see what happens.

help wanted !!!!

can any karamfermaa tell me how echoboom attaches files on these boards? is it tricky?

will be grateful...

Re: # 117 romair: you are right. all polarities have always been in conflict with each other and this will always remain so. this is the natural way of progress. it`s true that people don`t backtrack in the face of regular discussions but provided that both groups have equal oppertunities to protect and preach their ideas, the one with the better prevails because natural process favours the one closer to reality. but the problem comes when we accept different groups to have different privilages. here the problem is most acute because the religious group is weak in real terms but is much more influential because of the moral weakness of the moderates (as applies here).

as far as chowk is concerned, the balance is good, even going in favour of `moderates` but this is not so in general in pakistan. mullah has much more advantage than the moderate in terms of education curriclula, mosque and drawing room sermons, common man`s theoratical world view and sympathy for religion as an all good etc. isn`t this unfair? why can`t majority curb the minority? isn`t it because there is no clear picture of other-than-religion moral ideals for even the most librals ones?

if there aren`t any around, we must create them or we just see the home burning. morals were created in the time of french revolution, they didn`t fall from sky, they were carved out of the understanding of the situation. and you will appreciate that the modren libral and secular concepts have been born out of extremist wombs.

when a plane is hijacked, hijackers are always less in number. the only difference is that they are much more willing to take and give life and they are motivated in their cause. this is exactly what happenned in iran. are we ready to await a similar destiny? if not, what are we doing except burying our heads in sand?

Re: # 118 romair:

isn`t it quite trivial to find out yourself?

hamidm uncle`s sis`s slap on the moulvi was actually something like `i am an inhabitant of this place since centuries and who are you to tell me how to live my life, you victom of paculiar arab imperialism, you kawwa-chala-hans-ki-chaal`.

the analogy doesn`t apply to gora sahib.

re: echoboom # 111

Thanks.

IMHO, one should be able to take religious models as they are - and they are AS EASY TO UNDERSTAND as any other model of thought - and honestly decide what works best for one`s own intellectual and moral satisfaction, and future development of themselves as individuals and of their societies.

The greatest hurdle to the wellbeing and future safety of both Hindus and Muslims are those who fudge, twist, and lie through their old teeth, either in pure ignorance or with clear intent to deceive.

Leading the pack of such holies, are those who cannot advance two arguments without having to wink a few times, smile knowingly at every one, and talk in strange telepathic language that only they understands, or without asking you to read this or ponder that.

If we all stay with, and admit to, what we pretty well know actually exists, if we do not hide incovenient facts, nor make up fantasy religions specificially for the pleasures of our own minds, if we refuse to divorce religions from their real implications that people actually live, then matters can be sorted out , I bet, in a couple of hours.

Basic facts are just that amazingly simple. Put all beliefs together. If you find one more reasonable, you go one way, if you find the other more reasonable, you go the other way. But people are s&it scared of having to publicly confront their deep uneasiness about the possible absurdities and bigotries of what they claim are their religious beliefs.

The truth of the matter is, people become `liberal` so-and-so when they suddently realize they have simply have to become their own prophets if they are to maintain any inner integrity, yet cannot gather enough courage and energy to say:

``This no more makes any sense to me. I reject it today, without fearing what others may say. If such rejection means that I renounce this faith, and then I renounce all association with this illogical and unfair faith from this day forth.``

---

malik saheb, echoboom

Islam and all other religions should understood only on their own terms. Dragging Persian singers, Turkish dancers, Indian pot eaters, and drunkards from around the globe (God bless their soul, because without them life will not be worth living) to either support or criticize any one religion is not fair to anyone.

Hamidm mian #: Your story about your sister is interesting. I have one question..........

Would your sister have done the same had she been in the USA? Suppose she was wearing a Shalwar Kameez in downtown Chicago, and a gora walked upto her and yelled, `` You terrorist, why the hell can`t you dress properly like everyone else dresses.`` Or a Christian Evangelist walked up to her and said, ``You are destined to hell, because you don`t consider Christ your savior.``

Would she have slapped the gora a couple of times, also and threatened him with a brick? If they answer is yes, then that is something to admired. She sounds like she is someone who does not take trash from anyone, regardless of the other person`s social or national status. If the answer is no she would not have used physical abuse, or would have simply walked on, then doesn`t the fact that the mullah is a poor guy with a lower social status come into play, as a factor in her actions?

malikjahanzed #106: ``one big problem is to secure some moral advantage for the moderates. what you don`t want to do is, take the advantage away from abdul-hates and this has been the greatest dimension of our problem. see, nobody adores MMA in pakistan, moderates even think they are sick. but it`s their unchallenged moral advantage which gives them power far greater than their number. and their number is ever increasing....``

One should be careful when using the term moderate. Do keep in mind that everyone considers themselves a, ``moderate.`` The maulvi considers himself a moderate in his world. Just like Bush considers himself a, ``moderate`` in his world. Extremism comes from all directions. Not just from the maulvi..............

I have, over past six years, seen uncountable scream sessions on this site between maulvis and secularists. Each trying to tell the other that they have the perfect system for Pakistan. Each declaring the other to be, ``sick`` and unpopular. However, in all my time here, I have yet to see anyone convince the other, of his/her point of view. Not one case.

All it results in is furthur polarization. With the maulvis uniting on one side, and the non-maulvis on the other side. In some cases, there are even individuals who support maulvis in USA, but opppose them in Pakistan!!

There will always be a certain percentage of people in Pakistan who will support maulvis (some for the right reasons and some for the wrong reasons). And there will always be a certain percentage who will oppose maulvis (some for the right and some for wrong reasons). These people cannot all be killed or kicked out of the country. They have to learn to live together.

So, if someone is hell bent on discrediting the other, they will have to do it in the language of the, ``other.`` And as I have said, it is pretty easy to discredit people with extreme views - be it from the secular or religious side.

#113 malikjahanzeb

Typo , typo--thanks for the correction.

Re: # 114

I am trying not to get lost in the details of your post. It appears to me that despite the witnesses the penalty was not granted. This is where I have an issue when you start explaining the ins-and-outs of Hudd and you do not focus on the fact that the law enforcement agencies in Pakistan (and many other muslim countries) are least interested in following ``all`` the associated rules.

I think the best way of seeing these unfair practices is to take them in a lighter stride. It`s difficult to do that, but when you have other things to contemplate on and worry about then you do not want to add to the pile of concerns. As they say, pick your battles carefully. I have come to the point that pick your concerns carefully :)

Going back to the concern: Either you follow an Islamic Law or you do not. If you follow the law then you must take it to the last step - penalize the criminals/crooks. What is this nonsense practice of implementing first half of that stipulation and disregarding the second half? This is a joke! Is there much value in sticking with the four witnesses` logic when you do not issue a penalty on finding the four witnesses? This is utter nonsense! Don`t you agree?

For the time being, let`s take the emotional aspect out of this picture. South Asia is already blessed with highly emotional masses. In the end, they let emotions drive them completely insane and violate/kill fellow men and women. I guess if rationality was taught in the media(newspapers and movies) then our people would have thought and lived differently. I am not sure. I can be wrong.

zahraJ#72

That particular incident happened sometime in early 90s. That was not the first such incident but after that gang rapes in front of whole household during robberies are becoming kind of norm now. Please pick up a newspaper or a report from any human rights NGO for the past few years and you will see the rising trend. Probably it might surprise you to know that even when hadud laws are enforced in Pakistan and people do get convicted, no one in Pakistan has ever been through a hadud punishment. It is because our rulers do not fear God but they fear their foreign masters. But at another level I am glad that it has not happened because of the corrupt and almost defunct legal system of Pakistan. It is a sad reality.

But that particular incident effected me very personally in more than one way. One day before it happened I was attending a marriage in Lahore along with my family. The next day I had a business appointment in Islamabad, which I could not skip so I excused myself sometime after the lunch was served. The marriage was over anyway. My aunt and her daughter who lived near a village close to KhariaN on the way also asked me if I could drop them off on the way. My sister who was a fast friend of this cousin o ours also tagged along say that the two girls could chat on the way.

When we reached the village it was close to the evening. Originally, the plan was that my sister would come along with me but when her cousin offered her a sleepover she changed her mind. Now the plan was that the next day when parents would head home they would pick her up.

It was almost dusk when I left the village and just as I entered the GT road the car broke down. Fortunately, I was very close to a driver hotel where a truck workshop was still open. Repair man did not have any car parts so it took about 3 hours to get the parts from nearby town and fix the car. It was around 2 am when I was traveling in this hilly area when the police at a check post stopped me. In that area the west and East bound sides of the road were split by a small set of hills, in those days, so that at points the distance between the two sides was almost 1km, with hills and jungle in the middle. The sergeant plainly told me that I was stopped for Rs.100, either pay it or they will “recover” a pack of heroin from my trunk. About 20 minutes were wasted there and measuring my options and haggling with the sergeants I paid about 50 rupees and they let me go. Just as I moved my car and traveled about 500m it started to rain. I have never, in my life, seen such a heavy rain. It was so strong along with wind that I had to stop my car on the side of the road for 10 minutes. In those days highway was very unsafe because of a spate of robberies and the traffic on the road like GT was nil in those hours.

Anyway, I got back home several hours late when it was almost dawn. The next day, the news spread like wildfire in my city that a bus that was carrying people from my city was robbed on the opposite side of the road just where the check point where I was stopped was situated. Of course, the news of the gang rape of the two girls almost turned people to riot. I personally knew several of the people on that bus, and I had an inkling who the rape victims were and about their family. In small cities most people know each other by face or by name even if they never meet. In the later days, I saw the father and brothers of those girls who walked like zombies. The travelers told other people that it was the sudden rain that saved other women from such fate and other people from getting killed, otherwise those who robbed the bus were animals on two feet. Other than that bus they had also stopped many other vehicles and robbed them as well. Sometimes even God acts too slow.

Sometimes I wonder, if my sister was with me on that journey. What if the robbers were on my side of the road…