A Journey Through Our Conscience
sajal javid April 7, 2005
#273 Posted by masanamuthu on April 15, 2005 5:04:44 am
Re: # 267
``In the Quran, Allah tells the Prophet (pbuh) to tell the non-believers (when the latter was confronted with same question as yours today) that yes, killing is abhorrible, but their mischief (fitna) is even worse. Meaning, if the non-Muslims did not desist from threatening the Muslim communities - militarily or otherwise - they are begging to be killed. In other words, snakes never befriend anything except their kind, thus should be killed before they turn into serial killers.
If the women of the vanquished accepted Islam, they were set free and allowed to marry the Muslims. Same with children. Otherwise, keeping them as slaves was more feasible than leaving them on their own for survival, which often forced women into prostitution. Most of the prostitues today are also forced to dehumanize themselves out of economic deaperation, regardless of how much some idiot claims that prostitutes are most liberal women..``
WOW, what a defence for prophet and his army`s (s)exploits.. ?. I`m replacing a few words from your sentences..
``In 2003, God tells George Bush (pbuh) to tell the Muslims (when the latter was confronted with same question as yours today) that yes, killing is abhorrible, but their mischief (fitna) is even worse. Meaning, if the Muslims did not desist from threatening the non-Muslim communities - militarily or otherwise - they are begging to be killed. In other words, snakes never befriend anything except their kind, thus should be killed before they turn into serial killers.
If the women of the vanquished accepted American democracy, they were set free and allowed to marry the Christian soldiers. Same with children. Otherwise, keeping them as slaves was more feasible than leaving them on their own for survival, which often forced women into prostitution. Most of the prostitues today are also forced to dehumanize themselves out of economic deaperation, regardless of how much some idiot claims that prostitutes are most liberal women..``
Don`t know why you guys are making a big hue and cry for ``Abu-ghraib`` or ``Guantanamo``. The American soliers were just following the Quran and the prophet. You should be proud..
:-))
``In the Quran, Allah tells the Prophet (pbuh) to tell the non-believers (when the latter was confronted with same question as yours today) that yes, killing is abhorrible, but their mischief (fitna) is even worse. Meaning, if the non-Muslims did not desist from threatening the Muslim communities - militarily or otherwise - they are begging to be killed. In other words, snakes never befriend anything except their kind, thus should be killed before they turn into serial killers.
If the women of the vanquished accepted Islam, they were set free and allowed to marry the Muslims. Same with children. Otherwise, keeping them as slaves was more feasible than leaving them on their own for survival, which often forced women into prostitution. Most of the prostitues today are also forced to dehumanize themselves out of economic deaperation, regardless of how much some idiot claims that prostitutes are most liberal women..``
WOW, what a defence for prophet and his army`s (s)exploits.. ?. I`m replacing a few words from your sentences..
``In 2003, God tells George Bush (pbuh) to tell the Muslims (when the latter was confronted with same question as yours today) that yes, killing is abhorrible, but their mischief (fitna) is even worse. Meaning, if the Muslims did not desist from threatening the non-Muslim communities - militarily or otherwise - they are begging to be killed. In other words, snakes never befriend anything except their kind, thus should be killed before they turn into serial killers.
If the women of the vanquished accepted American democracy, they were set free and allowed to marry the Christian soldiers. Same with children. Otherwise, keeping them as slaves was more feasible than leaving them on their own for survival, which often forced women into prostitution. Most of the prostitues today are also forced to dehumanize themselves out of economic deaperation, regardless of how much some idiot claims that prostitutes are most liberal women..``
Don`t know why you guys are making a big hue and cry for ``Abu-ghraib`` or ``Guantanamo``. The American soliers were just following the Quran and the prophet. You should be proud..
:-))
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#272 Posted by ntsyed on April 15, 2005 4:35:01 am
Re: # 270
``...depends upon what proof is acceptable to someone. To some people, the incident narrated by teshah in his post#202 would be proof enough.``
That`s true. More power to the ones (whoever they may be) believing #202.
Being a newcomer here, I Thank you for your opposition to US bombings. I admire your courage to be the only one and hope your conscience and sense of fairness will persist unabated.
``...depends upon what proof is acceptable to someone. To some people, the incident narrated by teshah in his post#202 would be proof enough.``
That`s true. More power to the ones (whoever they may be) believing #202.
Being a newcomer here, I Thank you for your opposition to US bombings. I admire your courage to be the only one and hope your conscience and sense of fairness will persist unabated.
#271 Posted by drlokraj on April 15, 2005 4:34:16 am
Re: # 267
``Meaning, if the non-Muslims did not desist from threatening the Muslim communities - militarily or otherwise - they are begging to be killed. In other words, snakes never befriend anything except their kind, thus should be killed before they turn into serial killers.``
Going by that logic,what Bush and his allies are doing to muslims after 9/11 is correct.Where will this lead to ?
#270 Posted by dost_mittar on April 15, 2005 4:24:25 am
Re: # 265
``are you kidding, or are you just waking up?``
No sir, I have been awake all along, only you have joined the party recently. If you had been following chowk earlier, you would have known that I am among the very few chowkies who have consistently condemned the US bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq and perhaps the only one who also criticised its bombing of Kosovo.
``No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy.``
...depends upon what proof is acceptable to someone. To some people, the incident narrated by teshah in his post#202 would be proof enough.
``are you kidding, or are you just waking up?``
No sir, I have been awake all along, only you have joined the party recently. If you had been following chowk earlier, you would have known that I am among the very few chowkies who have consistently condemned the US bombings of Afghanistan and Iraq and perhaps the only one who also criticised its bombing of Kosovo.
``No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy.``
...depends upon what proof is acceptable to someone. To some people, the incident narrated by teshah in his post#202 would be proof enough.
#269 Posted by ntsyed on April 15, 2005 12:28:06 am
Re: # 266
``thanks for admitting a fantacy, a fantacy.``
I thank your inability to read and the ability to twist words out of context, otherwise I wouldn`t have had this opportunity to clarify.
Fantasy in this regard is the futile desire of discrediting the Prophet Mohammad, Allah`s peace and blessings be upon him. Considering your short attention span, I think you wouldn`t want me to define rest of the words in the sentence following Fantasy :-)~
``this is what the sane call `height of stubbornness`. yani ke, `haan, nahin, magar aesa nahin hay kiyoo ke aesa ho hi nahin sakta```.
By the same definition, you`re also stubborn to believe that Allah, Quran, and Prophet Mohammad, Allah`s peace and blessings be upon him, is flawed becuase you refuse to look at the context to maintain your ``enlightened`` complacency. Whereas, I hope my previous response made it clear to you that I look up the matter before offering a response. I may still come up with a wrong answer, but before you and ilk deem it wrong, look up the matter thoroughly and substantiate your claims. Otherwise, more of you will become freaked out spinning Sattars who follow their tails thinking it`s the enemy following them :-)~
``no one has ever proved that a crow is black. because it is all about the definition of what is black.``
Colors - in terms of pigments: All humans determined it a long time ago that even if equal amounts of primary colors pigments - i.e., red, blue, and green - are mixed, the product color would be unrepresentative of any of the colors therein. Thus, just like the dark night when not much can be seen, this product was determined BLACK, KALA, ASWAD, etc.
In terms of light, the mixture of same colors produces White. I hope you can figure out the rest.
I have a pretty good guess as to where you`re going to go from here - i.e. your next spin... but I`d rather wait for it to see how predictable you and your ilk are.
``thanks for admitting a fantacy, a fantacy.``
I thank your inability to read and the ability to twist words out of context, otherwise I wouldn`t have had this opportunity to clarify.
Fantasy in this regard is the futile desire of discrediting the Prophet Mohammad, Allah`s peace and blessings be upon him. Considering your short attention span, I think you wouldn`t want me to define rest of the words in the sentence following Fantasy :-)~
``this is what the sane call `height of stubbornness`. yani ke, `haan, nahin, magar aesa nahin hay kiyoo ke aesa ho hi nahin sakta```.
By the same definition, you`re also stubborn to believe that Allah, Quran, and Prophet Mohammad, Allah`s peace and blessings be upon him, is flawed becuase you refuse to look at the context to maintain your ``enlightened`` complacency. Whereas, I hope my previous response made it clear to you that I look up the matter before offering a response. I may still come up with a wrong answer, but before you and ilk deem it wrong, look up the matter thoroughly and substantiate your claims. Otherwise, more of you will become freaked out spinning Sattars who follow their tails thinking it`s the enemy following them :-)~
``no one has ever proved that a crow is black. because it is all about the definition of what is black.``
Colors - in terms of pigments: All humans determined it a long time ago that even if equal amounts of primary colors pigments - i.e., red, blue, and green - are mixed, the product color would be unrepresentative of any of the colors therein. Thus, just like the dark night when not much can be seen, this product was determined BLACK, KALA, ASWAD, etc.
In terms of light, the mixture of same colors produces White. I hope you can figure out the rest.
I have a pretty good guess as to where you`re going to go from here - i.e. your next spin... but I`d rather wait for it to see how predictable you and your ilk are.
#268 Posted by ntsyed on April 14, 2005 10:57:04 pm
Re: # 252
Sattar,
Just as your dyslexia is incurable, which forces you to omit/add/delete letters/words from/to your opponent`s comments, your chasing your own tail is approaching advanced stages.
Now that you seem to be bored of the flies, let me help you tie a pack of fire crackers at the end of your tail.
Oh, i see... Urstruly already did that...thank Urstruly!
Happy spinning and freaking out Sattar!
Sattar,
Just as your dyslexia is incurable, which forces you to omit/add/delete letters/words from/to your opponent`s comments, your chasing your own tail is approaching advanced stages.
Now that you seem to be bored of the flies, let me help you tie a pack of fire crackers at the end of your tail.
Oh, i see... Urstruly already did that...thank Urstruly!
Happy spinning and freaking out Sattar!
#267 Posted by ntsyed on April 14, 2005 10:46:23 pm
Re: # 249
MJ, I do not argue if my information is incomplete. You`re fooling yourself to believe that I`m shying away. I don`t believe in shooting from the hip in these matters. As I said, Insha Allah, I`ll look up your allegation and give you a solid answer simply to perpetuate your nightmare :-)~
I looked up Dr. Lactantius` paper. Let me just put it this way: I can dissect his each and every argument for you, but then you may lack the attention span for it. I`m glad you don`t claim yourself to be a Muslim if you fall for people who constantly trip over their own tongues. Read the article carefully and you`ll see it for yourself.
As for the banu quraiza... I dread to ask you of its source lest it be a devious yahudi like danial pipes.
Generally speaking though, as the Muslims were establishing their sovereignty, the practice was to invite every non-Muslim individual and communities to Islam; particularly the ones in proximity. If the invitation was rejected, then treaties were offered to respect each other`s territories and trade cravans passing through. If the non-Muslims rejected/breached the treaties but their mischief was did not pose an imminent threat to Muslims, they would be given certain amount of time to rethink their options. Otherwise, if the Muslim community was imminently threatened, the enemy would be called to war. After winning the war, if the prisoners accepted Islam, they would be set free. Otherwise, they would be beheaded. Why? In the Quran, Allah tells the Prophet (pbuh) to tell the non-believers (when the latter was confronted with same question as yours today) that yes, killing is abhorrible, but their mischief (fitna) is even worse. Meaning, if the non-Muslims did not desist from threatening the Muslim communities - militarily or otherwise - they are begging to be killed. In other words, snakes never befriend anything except their kind, thus should be killed before they turn into serial killers.
If the women of the vanquished accepted Islam, they were set free and allowed to marry the Muslims. Same with children. Otherwise, keeping them as slaves was more feasible than leaving them on their own for survival, which often forced women into prostitution. Most of the prostitues today are also forced to dehumanize themselves out of economic deaperation, regardless of how much some idiot claims that prostitutes are most liberal women. I know, you`d like the latter option, but not only it strikes at the heart of moral fabric of the societies, it spreads diseases which directly threaten the societie`s well being in more ways than one.
Now read carefully again before you compulsively hammer your response on the keyboard.
Frankly, you continue to disappoint me more and more by believing anything and everything without its context. It seems that even Canada has failed to instill objectivity in your thought processes, but you expect others to be objective.
Afsos sud afsos...
MJ, I do not argue if my information is incomplete. You`re fooling yourself to believe that I`m shying away. I don`t believe in shooting from the hip in these matters. As I said, Insha Allah, I`ll look up your allegation and give you a solid answer simply to perpetuate your nightmare :-)~
I looked up Dr. Lactantius` paper. Let me just put it this way: I can dissect his each and every argument for you, but then you may lack the attention span for it. I`m glad you don`t claim yourself to be a Muslim if you fall for people who constantly trip over their own tongues. Read the article carefully and you`ll see it for yourself.
As for the banu quraiza... I dread to ask you of its source lest it be a devious yahudi like danial pipes.
Generally speaking though, as the Muslims were establishing their sovereignty, the practice was to invite every non-Muslim individual and communities to Islam; particularly the ones in proximity. If the invitation was rejected, then treaties were offered to respect each other`s territories and trade cravans passing through. If the non-Muslims rejected/breached the treaties but their mischief was did not pose an imminent threat to Muslims, they would be given certain amount of time to rethink their options. Otherwise, if the Muslim community was imminently threatened, the enemy would be called to war. After winning the war, if the prisoners accepted Islam, they would be set free. Otherwise, they would be beheaded. Why? In the Quran, Allah tells the Prophet (pbuh) to tell the non-believers (when the latter was confronted with same question as yours today) that yes, killing is abhorrible, but their mischief (fitna) is even worse. Meaning, if the non-Muslims did not desist from threatening the Muslim communities - militarily or otherwise - they are begging to be killed. In other words, snakes never befriend anything except their kind, thus should be killed before they turn into serial killers.
If the women of the vanquished accepted Islam, they were set free and allowed to marry the Muslims. Same with children. Otherwise, keeping them as slaves was more feasible than leaving them on their own for survival, which often forced women into prostitution. Most of the prostitues today are also forced to dehumanize themselves out of economic deaperation, regardless of how much some idiot claims that prostitutes are most liberal women. I know, you`d like the latter option, but not only it strikes at the heart of moral fabric of the societies, it spreads diseases which directly threaten the societie`s well being in more ways than one.
Now read carefully again before you compulsively hammer your response on the keyboard.
Frankly, you continue to disappoint me more and more by believing anything and everything without its context. It seems that even Canada has failed to instill objectivity in your thought processes, but you expect others to be objective.
Afsos sud afsos...
#266 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 14, 2005 10:11:33 pm
>>>No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy
thanks for admitting a fantacy, a fantacy.
>>>No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy
this is what the sane call `height of stubbornness`. yani ke, ``haan, nahin, magar aesa nahin hay kiyoo ke aesa ho hi nahin sakta``.
>>>No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy
no one has ever proved that a crow is black. because it is all about the definition of what is black.
baray bhai,
i agree with you that mo was flawless. but my perspective is very peculiar when i say that.
thanks for admitting a fantacy, a fantacy.
>>>No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy
this is what the sane call `height of stubbornness`. yani ke, ``haan, nahin, magar aesa nahin hay kiyoo ke aesa ho hi nahin sakta``.
>>>No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy
no one has ever proved that a crow is black. because it is all about the definition of what is black.
baray bhai,
i agree with you that mo was flawless. but my perspective is very peculiar when i say that.
#265 Posted by ntsyed on April 14, 2005 9:53:37 pm
Re: # 243
dm,
are you kidding, or are you just waking up?
If you haven`t been following the recent news, thousands of people are being picked up by the American agencies around the world. The media has only identified a few ``ghost detainees``. If you follow Pakistan and ME, there are countless such detainees - picked up in the middle of the night and vanish without a trace. If the Bushites can`t find the actual critic, one or more of the latter`s family members are picked up. Abu Ghraib was just a tip of the iceberg. Why do you think there were carpet bombings of the innocent villagers in Afaghnistan and Iraq?
``I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is His slave and messenger``
YES, the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was absolutely flawless.
No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy.
dm,
are you kidding, or are you just waking up?
If you haven`t been following the recent news, thousands of people are being picked up by the American agencies around the world. The media has only identified a few ``ghost detainees``. If you follow Pakistan and ME, there are countless such detainees - picked up in the middle of the night and vanish without a trace. If the Bushites can`t find the actual critic, one or more of the latter`s family members are picked up. Abu Ghraib was just a tip of the iceberg. Why do you think there were carpet bombings of the innocent villagers in Afaghnistan and Iraq?
``I bear witness that there is no god except Allah, and I bear witness that Mohammad is His slave and messenger``
YES, the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him) was absolutely flawless.
No has been able to prove him otherwise, because no one can, and no one will be able to achieve that fantasy.
#264 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 14, 2005 9:28:39 pm
the age of prophets. when will it come?
guys when will we learn from the history?
when i look at people like mo and hazrat mirza ghulam ahmed of qadiyaan and shree guru nanak of nankaana sahib, i see great people. these are the people above all of us. they are a lesson for us. these are the folks who have not bowed to anything but have made others bow to themselves. the techniques they used is another matter. you gotta have some means.
these are the people who are the reason why we are circucised. they are the reason why we celibrate eid. they are the reason of becomming of pakistan and india and saudi arabia. these are the people who have pushed the practical and thoeratical limits of the human race to where we find us today. they injected a great mass of energy in rather numb people to do something, to find out what lies ahead. these people might be tyrants and frauds for the contemporary, but for us they are a blessing. they are the very people because of whome we are in a position to denounce them. they bear a profound lesson and that lesson is, how to become prophets. how to witness the triumph of will. how to reach the next big thing.... how to become supermen.
so folks, good luck with being prophets. hamidm uncle is already there. i am on my way. others are awaited.
guys when will we learn from the history?
when i look at people like mo and hazrat mirza ghulam ahmed of qadiyaan and shree guru nanak of nankaana sahib, i see great people. these are the people above all of us. they are a lesson for us. these are the folks who have not bowed to anything but have made others bow to themselves. the techniques they used is another matter. you gotta have some means.
these are the people who are the reason why we are circucised. they are the reason why we celibrate eid. they are the reason of becomming of pakistan and india and saudi arabia. these are the people who have pushed the practical and thoeratical limits of the human race to where we find us today. they injected a great mass of energy in rather numb people to do something, to find out what lies ahead. these people might be tyrants and frauds for the contemporary, but for us they are a blessing. they are the very people because of whome we are in a position to denounce them. they bear a profound lesson and that lesson is, how to become prophets. how to witness the triumph of will. how to reach the next big thing.... how to become supermen.
so folks, good luck with being prophets. hamidm uncle is already there. i am on my way. others are awaited.
#263 Posted by tahmed32 on April 14, 2005 8:00:26 pm
hamidm: Why, O holy one with his own masjid, is it so important to be a muslim? What is wrong with DullaBhatti (for example) who is not a muslim?? He seems like a fine fellow to me, at least as good a man it appears as any muslim poster on chowk, and surely Allah would not have a problem with him choosing his own faith (or lack thereof) as long as he does not go around doing or condoning evil deeds (like blowing up shia mosques for example)(in which case calling oneself a muslim wouldnt help anyway).
#262 Posted by hamidm2 on April 14, 2005 6:59:30 pm
Re: # 255
........... i am a muslim ........
........... and if i am a muslim, then you, my friend sattar, are also a muslim if you want to be one ........ as long as you are circumcised, believe in a super-being named al-lah, celebrate eid and shab-i-barat, and every now and then bow towards mecca, you are a muslim regardless of what urstruly or others have to say ........ as muslims we have every right to criticize our prophet and it is our prerogative to disagree with some of the things that he did or said ....... it is that simple ! ........... now, personally i have some major issues with the character of muhammad, but that is no reason to dump him - after all there were other prophets who were way out of line and yet their followers are more than happy to give them the benefit of doubt ............ no?
......... i am seriously thinking of forming my own masjid ......... send money ......
........... i am a muslim ........
........... and if i am a muslim, then you, my friend sattar, are also a muslim if you want to be one ........ as long as you are circumcised, believe in a super-being named al-lah, celebrate eid and shab-i-barat, and every now and then bow towards mecca, you are a muslim regardless of what urstruly or others have to say ........ as muslims we have every right to criticize our prophet and it is our prerogative to disagree with some of the things that he did or said ....... it is that simple ! ........... now, personally i have some major issues with the character of muhammad, but that is no reason to dump him - after all there were other prophets who were way out of line and yet their followers are more than happy to give them the benefit of doubt ............ no?
......... i am seriously thinking of forming my own masjid ......... send money ......
#261 Posted by dullabhatti on April 14, 2005 5:39:33 pm
#260
Unless you meant ``.....rejecting of prophet of Allah as last prophet.....``
Unless you meant ``.....rejecting of prophet of Allah as last prophet.....``
#260 Posted by dullabhatti on April 14, 2005 5:37:27 pm
#255
Sattar: You said ``Firstly, rejecting a prophet of Allah does not make one a non-Muslim.``
Is there any aspect of Islam whose source (hadith) or ``medium`` (book) is not Prophet Mohammad? If you are going to reject the prophet, how are you going to believe what he said? if you are not going to believe what he said or did what is your definition of Islam left? on ther other hand If you are believing in him how can you reject him? My understanding so for is that Mohammad is the highest deity in Islam and without his credibility, and hence credibility of his words, there is not much of Islam left. That is the reason I have seen time and again people get away with badmouthing Allah but a word against the Prophet and all hell breaks loose.
please clear this point.
Sattar: You said ``Firstly, rejecting a prophet of Allah does not make one a non-Muslim.``
Is there any aspect of Islam whose source (hadith) or ``medium`` (book) is not Prophet Mohammad? If you are going to reject the prophet, how are you going to believe what he said? if you are not going to believe what he said or did what is your definition of Islam left? on ther other hand If you are believing in him how can you reject him? My understanding so for is that Mohammad is the highest deity in Islam and without his credibility, and hence credibility of his words, there is not much of Islam left. That is the reason I have seen time and again people get away with badmouthing Allah but a word against the Prophet and all hell breaks loose.
please clear this point.
#259 Posted by sattar2 on April 14, 2005 12:56:34 pm
Urstruly,
I think ntsyed is now more curious about the Prophet (pbuh) brutally violating Quran and being reminded by others of his conduct (from what I recall you telling me ... he tried to starve Meccans into subjugation ... causing extreme hardship for even the elderly, women, infants, pregnant mothers, kids ... everyone ... ).
No wonder Jerry Falwell is still upset ...
#258 Posted by tahmed32 on April 14, 2005 12:40:20 pm
Faruk: and one more thing - dont dare say anything against my Hazrat Maulana Hamidm. He is hafiz-e-Quran (not just from beginning to end but can also recite it backwards from the end to the beginning), and a haji (every year). If you dare write against him, I shall tell him to say a special ``badduaa`` to you. Also, he will no doubt run for elections and become the next prime minister - and then with what face (kis mooN say) will you go and ask for a sugar license or cement license?? Think about these things before saying anything negative about my Maulana Hamidm!!
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