A Journey Through Our Conscience

Re: # 240

Let`s ask Sattar, why Muslims all over the world consider quadianis as non-Muslims, that way he will get an opportunity to explain what the tennets of his religion are and why according to his faith all those people all over the world who call themselves Muslims and do not subscribe to the quadiani faiths are considered Kafirs by Quadianis in turn. As a matter of fact, Mirza Quadiani, who started this religion actually explicitly manadated his diciples to keep a certain decourum with ``Kafirs``. Lets ask how.

Re: # 239

Urstruly,

I apologize for the discomfort I caused you.

Probably my lack of knowledge regarding quadianis is to be blamed for this. Until I learn exactly who they are and what they represent, I don`t feel I can render anyone a Non-Muslim if they claim to be Muslim. May be you could give me a brief intro on them.

The other sectarian divides can be removed with Allah`s help and our sincerity in teaching our families not to fall for such bid`a.

M`as-salaam

Re: # 235

I did not deserve this lecture. My point was simple i.e. please do not represent quadianis as one of the Muslim sects, because they are not Muslims. As for the other sects in Islam, I agree with your point, but the fact is that - right or wrong - the sects do exist and it is an undeniable reality.

Re: # 228

MJ,

while I look up the website you`ve referred me to, and the 800 jews of banu quraiza. Please let me know why the ``moderate``, ``educated``, ``enlightened`` and ``progressed``, apparently graduated from the birth state of their brains or without a bug in it, continue to slaughter (in countless numbers) men, women, and chilren in Iraq, Palestine, Chechnia, Bosnia, Afghanistan, Uigur, India, Pakistan, Kashmir, Uzbekistan, Indonesia, Chile, Uruguay, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela, Eygypt, Jordan...and many more countries. I`m sure you`ll have better answers than allowing ``moderate``, ``educated`` liberal men to satify their needs by dehumanizing women into prostitution.

Our numbers may be small, which you`ll be surprised to know how many actually they are, with a solid faith in Allah and His mercy, only 300 or so will reverse what the moderates have perverted in the last 1000 years. Just keep practicing the kalima for the day when you`ll see them all around you, including your own children.

Re: # 224

Sattar,

i thought you were very well versed in Quran - with your own exegesis and all, how come you still haven`t found the answers?

Oh I see... you forgot about the `extreme cases` vis a vis when one becomes a threat to the community - just as you seem to have forgotten to mention it here. Figure that.... :S

The problem with you dear boy seems to be that you haven`t been weaned, yet you want to considered an adult.

Now don`t start the backtracking circle again. But if you must, use the previous prescription of chasing your own tail.

Re: # 223

temporal,

Very well put. However, considering the ground realities and militancy, I keep stressing on True Islam.

True Islam, prohibits us from killing the innocent, the unarmed, women, children, and elderly.

We cannot expect any government or mullah to implement True Islam for us. It can only come from the people, as it did in the 7th century. And for that to happen, we must stop compromising our faith in Allah.

I don`t usually share this personal experience, but in Pakistan three times I`ve encountered the police looking for bhatta. Even though I`m a very very weak Muslim, with only fear of Allah in my heart I refused to yield to their thuggery in plain and simple words that their years of jails and torture are preferable to me over a millisecond visit to the hellfire. All praises be to Allah, on all counts, they simply backed off. Similarly, I`ve refused to yield to such haram demands at other government offices, and Allah has never failed me. You`ll be surprised to know that there are many like me. Unfortunately, it`s not a majority at present, but the day is not far when that will change.

We HAVE TO implement it on ourselves first - myself included. That implementation will only come from studying the Quran and following the authentic sunnahs of the Prophet.

Otherwise our principles will be nothing more than lines in the sand. We`ll revel in our double standards like hamidm2. While he appreciates his sister`s violence against a mullah - who wasn`t asking her to any perform lewd acts - his standard changes when Allah allows a unchaste woman to be punished just as He commands an ill-charactered man to be punished. I wonder what his sister and/or he would`ve done if they had encountered a couple of equally (if not more) sexaully starved gundas or corrupt policemen or jawans of the army.

Anyway... obeying Allah is the first and foremost duty of every Muslim if we wish for our lives to be improved. The result should be left to Allah, because only He knows the true ground realities at macro and micro levels. If you read about the pre-Islamic conditions of Arabia and the entire world, things were much more worse back then. So there`s a big hope for us, provided we start from ourselves.

M`as-salaam

Re: # 222

Urstruly,

With all due respect, my point is not to allow any political versions of Islam.

From what I understand, the Quran stresses on believers to maintain unity and not to create factions. Allah has never allowed the believers to interpret the Quran any which way they like. Thus, the repeated stress in the Quran to obey Allah and the Prophet (pbuh). Similarly, the Prophet (pbuh) never allowed the Muslims to form one group or another based on which of his sunnahs individuals follow.

It`s becuase of these politicizations that one muslim (myself included) considers himself better than others. It has come to a point that even the people who selectively believe in Allah when it suits them, contend that their (Non-Muslim Approved) ``moderate Islam`` is the best.

However, under no circumstances one can claim that (m`az Allah) Allah is or His angels are or His Prophets (pbut) were flawed, especially a Muslim CANNOT do that; not in the name of pragmatism or modernity or advancement. One simply CANNOT compromise the foundation for the penthouse.

Otherwise, it`s not faith, but only a convenience and exploitation to be included in one group or another wherever it benefits more. And people of principal, irrespective of their faith or the lack of it, simply never do that in their personal, professional, political, or in any other role of their lives.

nt:

i think KSA govt. has done a great job with the oil money by restricting certain ghost buster websites, in addition to stuffing their harams with all kinds of gems.

but i have noticed that i am shrewd enough to dodge them this time.

so, here`s emobryology explaination for dummies:

http://malikjahanzeb.netfirms.com/Embryology.htm

jazak-allah-kher

hamidm2:

I`m worried about you.. looks like ``prophet`` of allah had a special liking for ``apostates``

I was reading this.. from

www.faithfreedom.org

---

``Q.3:90
But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have gone astray.

Q.16: 106
Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty.

One may think that the dreadful penalty mentioned here pertains to the next world. But Muhammad made sure that these people received their penalty in this world as well:

9.14
Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,


There are also Hadiths that clearly says `` So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection.``

Elsewhere we read:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 260:

Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn `Abbas, who said, ``Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, `Don`t punish (anybody) with Allah`s Punishment.` No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, `If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.` ``

I found many tales of brutality of Muhammad like this story:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261:

Eight men of the tribe of `Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, ``O Allah`s Apostle! Provide us with some milk.`` Allah`s Apostle said, ``I recommend that you sh ould join the herd of camels.`` So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died.

---

a raw nerve?

the writer writes about of rape in pakistan

the obfuscators, deniers, prevaricators ...the abdul-hates... talk of all places but pakistan

teshah:

``Is it not an ample proof of what all the wise had been saying about the women, as epitomized in Manu Samriti so poignantly?

Pishu, dhol, ganwaar, shudar, naari (woman)
sub hein taarhan (beating) ke adhikaari (deserving}``


Shahji, Manu could not have written this. I am pretty sure he wrote in sanskrit whereas the above quote is in Hindi. I believe these lines were written by Tulsi Das, probably after his wife did not do what he wanted :-)

I am not following this thread, so the issue may have already been discussed.
Does anyone know what are the hadood laws when a non-muslim woman complains of rape/zabar/zina against a muslim man?
Is it a crime for a muslim to have a non-consensual sex with a non-muslim woman? If so, whose witness is admissible?
What is the punishment if the crime is proved?
What happens in the opposite case, namely, if it is a muslim woman and a non-muslim man?
Anyone?

Meanwhile:
In the land of milk (them) and (make) money--the United Satana of America.

``Miraa koee naheeN hai teraay sivaa``--the yelps from the Cantonement and Colony Kennels reach a crescendo of orgasmic ecstacy.

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According to a study conducted by the National Victim Center, 1.3 women (age 18 and over) in the United States are forcibly raped each minute. That translates to 78 per hour, 1,871 per day, or 683,000 per year.- Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, National Victim Center,1992.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, nearly 6 out of 10 rape/sexual assault incidents are reported by victims to have occurred in their own home or at the home of a friend, relative, or neighbor. - Sex Offenses and Offenders: An Analysis of Data on Rape and Sexual Assault, Bureau of Statistics, Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 1997.

51% of the sexual assault cases studied in the Women`s Safety Project survey were committed against young women between 16 and 21 years. old. - ``Sexual Violence in Women`s Safety Project, A Community-Based Survey,`` 1995.

In 29% of rapes, the offender used a weapon. - Violence Against Women, Bureau of Justic Statistics, U.S. Dept of Justice, 1994.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault are female and 9% are male. Nearly 99% of the offenders they described in single-victim incidents are male. - Violence Against Women, Bureau of Justic Statistics, U.S. Dept of Justice, 1994.

Rape or sexual assault was the violent crime least often reported to law enforcement. - Crime Victimization 1999: Changes 1998-99 with Trends 1993-99, National Crime Victimization Survey, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 2000.

13.3% of college women indicated that they had been forced to have sex in a dating situation. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, I. Johnson & R. Sigler, 2000.

Among developmentally disabled adults as many as 83% of the females and 32% of the males are victims of sexual assault. Sexual Assault Against Women with Disabilities, Disabled Women`s Network, 1991.

The National Violence Against Women Survey found that rape is a crime committed primarily against youth. Of the women who reported being raped sometime in their lives, 21.6% were younger than age 12, 32.4% were ages 12 to 17, 29% were ages 18 to 24, and 16.6 % were over 25 years old. Thus, 54% of women victims were under age 18 at the time of the first rape and 83% were under the age of 25. - ``Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey,`` National Institute of Justice, Office of Justice Programs, U.S. Dept. of Justice,1998.

There is Ba Ba Blacksheep enlightenment and moderation in ``Islamic`` Pakistan and then there is justice swift and harsh where Mullahs applies Sharia--judiciously, of course.

But the silence of the lambs in ``tolerating`` blasphemers of the holy prophet nay, encouraging them by whispering sweet nothings like ``O how Rushdick you sound when you say that, my fellow muslim-hater``.

---

Iran to hang father and son for rape
14 April 2005

TEHRAN: A father and his 17-year-old son will be executed by hanging on Saturday after being convicted of raping four young girls and stealing from dozens of others, a state-run newspaper reported on Wednesday.

Mohammadi is due to be executed in public at dawn on Saturday while his son will be hanged at exactly the same time behind prison walls. Both are to receive 74 lashes before their hangings, the paper said.

Despite being a member of the United Nations convention on the Rights of the Child, Iran continues to issue death penalties to offenders under the age of 18.

Iran`s judiciary announced plans last year to outlaw the death penalty for juveniles under 18 but some lawyers say the plans are not strong enough because judges still have the power to change it if they deem the offender was mature enough when committing the crime.

This month, Amnesty International said in a report that Iran had executed 159 people in 2004, second worldwide after China.

Murder, rape, adultery, armed robbery, apostasy and drug trafficking are punishable by death in Iran.

ntsyed,

7th century islam is not a light thing to take. it is a recipie for world domination. it`s a `go` signal. it is something which can only be ignited once, grow to it`s most destrictive form and is deemed to die out after that. even saw a match-stick burn?

7th century islam will never revive because people have experiemented with it. those who are still enthusiastic about it fall under two categories. ones who have retained the birth state of their brains or ones with a bug in their brain. fortunately, you fall under the second category. it`s a general trend to notice that most normal human beings see their fundamentalism curbed when they get educated and civilized (you are blessed to be saved from this evil trend). since people like you are small in number, we have every reason to believe that we are done with 7th century islam.

to keep you busy, i ask you to explain the murder of nearly 800 jews of banu quraiza by your favorite prophet. they were prisnors (not of war). they were taken out in chunks of a dezons and their throats were cut as goats and sheep. their women were taken as concubines and children slaves.

ntsyed sahib: this sattar2 is behind you like a scary nightmare. just like you are behind the moderates. this is rather funny for me.

echo: i am pissed to realize the pathetic urdu support on the web. we can`t even write simple sentences to each other without invoking 7 wonders of technology. sad that we are not upto the task of keeping up with other nations. i envy those oily sheikhs that a whole version of arabic windows is there for their use. even the chinease have done the task which is much more cumbersone as compared to us.

sattar: have you noticed the attitude of poeple towards us. isn`t it exactly as if you are trying to ride a bus and the driver is too afraid to see the huge baggage you have. you are crazy man. you are even wierder than the ntsyed.

178-Dear Sajal

I just read your comments carefully and sat down to reply the points raised by you one by one. Though I believe it is futile to argue with a woman yet like all men I love to talk to one whenever I get the chance as my `peer` Ghalib says:

Dil phir tawafe kooe malamat ko jae he
Pandaar ka sanam kadah weeraan kie hue.

Now to the points raised:

(1) ``see you assumed i was a man and i believe just like that you assume everything without knowing the facts``

You are quite correct. I took you as a man judging by your name. But I still wonder how to `verify` that you are a woman. The fact is that only the male is normally the stable form of all the living beings. As for the female it retains her sex characteristics only for a limited period. A woman normally becomes an MP (menopaused) at the age of 40 to 45. Which means she becomes physically sexless and unproductive like a barren field and mentally a sick person, whereas the man remains sexually functional male till his death at whatever his age. Some even say he remains so till his`Kul`. In Punjabi the female which goes MP {menopaused} is called a `Phandar`. A cow or hen reaching such a condition is slaughtered and eaten.

(2) ``Surah 30. Ar Rum Ayah 21

And one of His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves
that you may find rest in them, and He put between you love and compassion;
most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect et sec.``

Excuse me, you got off the track. We are discussing the gender issue and not the relationship and the relative rights of the husband and wife. I ask you only one question in this connection. How can a wife have equal rights with her husband in Islam when the husband can have as many wives and sex-slaves as he can manage? This is quite in accordance with the natural demands of each gender. This is indeed the natural justice of the `Deene Fitrat`. Don`t you agree?

``Men shall take full care of women, because Allah has given the one more
strength than the other, and because they support them from their means.
Qur`an [4 : 34]``

My God! Are you serious, dear? Please don`t play with Qurane Hakim. From where you got the words `full care` and `strength`? Verse 34 of Sura 4 is indeed the most important verse laying down the rules for the mutual relationship of the husband and wife/wives and their rights and obligations. Here is the translation of it by Pickthall, the most favourable one to women:

``Men are in charge of women because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge (punish severely) them.``

Does your `full care` and `strength` mean the performance by man of the function ordained by Allah in the portion underlined above?

When I reached here I recalled the language you used at the end of your post as reproduced below:

``Your post is utter Rubbish and frankly even replying to it I feel insulted.

You can take you ``Guttar mentality`` and keep it where it belongs in your mind!!!!!``

Is it not an ample proof of what all the wise had been saying about the women, as epitomized in Manu Samriti so poignantly?

Pishu, dhol, ganwaar, shudar, naari (woman)
sub hein taarhan (beating) ke adhikaari (deserving}

The very fact that I assumed you to be a man I wonder what was the reason for you to become personal in a discussion on a general issue of gender relation.