A Journey Through Our Conscience

Hello chusni/echoboom

coffee?

Re: # 74 Malik

The two scenarios that you have presented are valid. These are the things that are coded in the Criminal Procedure Code as discussed in my #39.

However, the conditions for imposition of hadud in the cases of adultary are what I stipulated before. Please keep in mind that Islam does not seek out people to chop their limbs off or stone them to death and that is the reason the standard of witness is so high that these punishment can only be seldom imposed. The condition of four witnesses to impose hadd in case of fornication is to prevent people from performing this act in public. Please don`t tell me that human beings don`t do that. Or take the case of those two sisters who were gang raped in front of other travellers in my post below. In that case perpetrators were deliberatly trying to smack the face of humanity and all that good human beings stand for. It was a clear and deliberate act of rebillion and attack on humanity. This behavior cannot be spared

There is a hadith where Holy Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said that ``Try to spare Muslims from Hadud, as much as possible``, therefore, state must take all efforts to save a perp from hadud. This hadith also became a part of the land mark verdict given by the Federal Shariat court, in the case of Jehan Mina, who is mentioned in the article above.

Re: # 79 ntsyed

Yes your contention about Li`an is correct. I apologize for the error. HEre I post the relavant verse so that there remains no doubt.

``And for those who launch a charge against their
spouses, and have (in support) no evidence but their own,- their solitary
evidence (can be received) if they bear witness four times (with an oath) by
Allah that they are solemnly telling the truth; And the fifth (oath) (should be)
that they solemnly invoke the curse of Allah on themselves if they tell a lie.
But it would avert the punishment from the wife, if she bears witness four times
(with an oath) By Allah, that (her husband) is telling a lie; And the fifth
(oath) should be that she solemnly invokes the wrath of Allah on herself if (her
accuser) is telling the truth``. An-Nur (The Light) 24:6-9



On a sidenote, I must tell you that, you were doing quite well yourself, until you fell for the `abdulhate` trap. Please bear in mind that these tactics are used to stifle debate. Our objective and our mission is bigger than us. We are not out here to humiliate people, our mission is to convey the message we are charged with. Please keep your eyes at the goal.

Re: # 73 rahul-capri

I don`t think so. Police do not and cannot do hanky panky with the high profile cases. It only goes after helpless and poor or those from whom they hope to extort money. It will kepp on happening as long as there is loophole in the CrPC - Criminal Procedure Code.

David Lamb, the Los Angeles reporter, who wrote the bestselling book The Africans, while living and travelling for four years in Africa echoes this point. He states that one of the best comparisons between a Christian and Muslim country in Africa was the safety of the streets within the larger cities. He felt that he would never let his wife walk alone at night, and sometimes even during the day in most of the larger African Christian cities. Yet, he had no fear of permitting his wife to wander freely within any of the larger African Muslim cities.

``Judy and I, during our 5 years in Senegal, a country of 7 million, of which 92% of the population claimed to be Muslim, don`t recall of ever having to fear for the safety of our women. Not once were they ever ``cat-called,`` and in the entire time there, we remember hearing of only one rape in our town of 350,000 individuals. On this point alone, Islam has proved to far excel Christianity with its care and discipline towards women.``

urstruly:

On a sidenote, I must tell you that, you were doing quite well yourself, until you fell for the `abdulhate` trap. Please bear in mind that these tactics are used to stifle debate. Our objective and our mission is bigger than us. We are not out here to humiliate people, our mission is to convey the message we are charged with. Please keep your eyes at the goal.

and what debate is that?

does it have anything to do with CHUSNI-ECHOBOOM`s or your version of islam?

btw nice tag-team you make with chusni-echoboom:)

urstruly and ntsyed,

``Our objective and our mission is bigger than us`` !!!!

........ we knew that you guys were on a mission from god ......... but unlike ellwood and jake you are not amusing and quite dangerous ........ hopefully, gods willing, you will fail in your satanic mission to spread hate and misery .......

two whole chickens and some dry toast ?

Re: # 98 Urstryly,

justice has to be intelligent right?

assume this. a man and a women commit adultary trying to make sure that nobody can see them, and a common foe surprises them with 4 wittnesses. they are stonned to death.

now assume that another man and woman commit adultary on a public beach. four poeple happen to see them. they are stonned to death too.

there goes your philosophy of `performing this act in public`.

93 romair:

one big problem is to secure some moral advantage for the moderates. what you don`t want to do is, take the advantage away from abdul-hates and this has been the greatest dimension of our problem. see, nobody adores MMA in pakistan, moderates even think they are sick. but it`s their unchallenged moral advantage which gives them power far greater than their number. and their number is ever increasing....

please don`t forget that a `responsible` woman has many other resonsbilities first. she the wife of a romair who has to give her the moral courage to stand for her rights, otherwise, being an eastern wife, she will never. can you do that if you share the truth of a `mullah`?

i say it is the moderates who let the mullah say fanatic things and don`t intercept, digging their head in sand as if their bullshit doesn`t matter. but my friend, over years, it does matter by changing more and more normals to fanatics. you don`t do it because of your wisdom, you do it because you don`t want to mess with them.

if the moderates (no wonder they are in better positions than abdul-hates and always will remain) learn how to humiliate mullah and put him on his proper position i.e. imaam-e-masjid but not khateeb, koran teacher for a child but not a drawing room waaiz, only then things will start getting to normal. right now, things are going somewhere else.

and i say, let`s not be voilant with them. let`s start ignoring them and humiliating them in an unnoticable way. but we can`t do that untill be claim to share the `truth` with them about which they are always more right than us.

uncle hamidm,

kuch haal apne behnoi sb ka bhi sunayen. uss bechaare ki kiya durgat banti ho gi?

UrsTruly:
Brilliant and precise writing. I see not a single so-called progressive-muslim (oxymoron?) types have come out and counter the Quranic/Ahadith verses you have quoted in your posts. Within your own framework of Quran and Hadith as sources for Islamic Law, you make perfect sense.

cheers.

malikjahanzeb :
``
Re: # 98 Urstryly,

justice has to be intelligent right?
``

you calling syedna aanhazrat mohammad a lesser intelligent mortal? thats strike three dude.. you are out. i say Hudd.!

Re: # 107

raw_dust

``I see not a single so-called progressive-muslim (oxymoron?) types have come out and counter the Quranic/Ahadith verses you have quoted in your posts. ``

.......... how do you counter sheer nonsense ?....... if a guy says the earth is flat, there is no point in agruing with the fool - you either commit him to an insane asylum or you shoot hims and put him out of his misery .......... if you argue with them you are actually lending credibility to their nonsense .......

Re: hamidm
``.......... how do you counter sheer nonsense ?......``

There is no point in arguing. Qurani/Ahadtih references that stipulate the four-male-witness-to-rape bakvaas Should be called Sheer Nonsense and that will clarify alot of obfuscation going on around here.

Stupidity follows when some tries to have it both ways by twisting words (reinterpretation) and pretending that islamic civic/penal law makes perfect sense (refrain: ``Oh It is only the mullas``) within the civic/social domain.

Raw-Dust: 110

You , Kalaachakra, and MalikJahanzeb make perfect sense. Your arguments are from a solid base, not acceptable, but nevertheless arguments with a premises & a thesis.

There is no such thing as ``progressive`` Islam. Such fancy western terms somehow imply a `defficiency`.

``HaaN voh naheeN vafaa prast, JaaO voh bayvafaa sahee``
Jiss ko ho jaan-O-dil azeez uskee gali meiN jaaey kyooN``--Ghlaib.

tr: ( in colloquial )

Oh this yadaa yadaa yadaa about her. She is a betrayer, she is not true, she is this she is that

So the one who values his heart & life so much, why would he even venture near her neighborhood.

---

`` MeiN toa Kumbal ko chhoRRnaa chaahtaa hooN, mgar Kumbal mujhhay naheeN chhoRRtaa``--famous last words of a drowning man who wouldn`t let go of the bear who he mistook for a blanket afloat towards him.

But here it is the ``Blanket`` which wants out.

Re: # 70

my reasoning is not circular sir, yours is!!!
kaan seedha pakro ya ghuma ke eik hi baat hai...........with your logic you were doing the latter.