A Journey Through Our Conscience
sajal javid April 7, 2005
#1 Posted by Aha_Snark on April 7, 2005 12:52:54 am
Sajal,
A very hard-hitting article. My compliments. I`ve never been to Pakistan and therefore have only second-hand information about the status of women in Pakistan but I can identify with the theme of holding women victims of sexual violence guilty for the crime - it`s the same here, in New Delhi.
I hope that laws which discriminate to this degree between the sexes are repealed.
A very hard-hitting article. My compliments. I`ve never been to Pakistan and therefore have only second-hand information about the status of women in Pakistan but I can identify with the theme of holding women victims of sexual violence guilty for the crime - it`s the same here, in New Delhi.
I hope that laws which discriminate to this degree between the sexes are repealed.
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#2 Posted by MeAyesha on April 7, 2005 2:48:08 am
well, it seems that they finally accepted it...and it is something that should be brought to attention! good work! Cheers! @yesha.
#3 Posted by ntsyed on April 7, 2005 3:17:46 am
Sajal,
very nicely written, but not many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are the rapists, if any. It`s the traditional so called ones who only possess a muslim name, but follow the blind and confused culture instead of Quran.
The following essay may shed some more light on the topic
The Tsunami Alert
“[I]n their (old Islamic scholars) days the science had not advanced, and nothing was there to draw their attention towards laws of nature and correct their errors. Thus, these reasons and their many other reasons were such that they (scholars) did not pay attention to the Quranic language … for example, in Ibrahim (pbuh)’s case there is no clear or tangible evidence that he was actually thrown in the fire, but they (scholars) did not pay attention to it.” (Transliteration)
“Shocking” would be an understatement to describe the preceding claim; considering it was said by a revered Indo-Pak Muslim scholar/reformer – Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, and reported by Justice Taqi Uthmani in his Uloom ul Quran.
The Justice further recalls SA Khan to claim in his misleading exegesis of the Quran that “[s]ince Ibrahim (pbuh)’s survival from the fire was out of the scientific realm of his contemporary western sciences, he and his ilk reduced the basic principles of the Quran and manipulated its meanings to suit their arguments. They declared that angels, jinn and Satan to be superstitions and miracles of the prophets (pbut) were supernatural events at best as a reason to disbelieve in them.” (Transliteration)
The question is: who is right? a sub-continental Knight – who instigated the reform which eventually brought about the freedom for Indian Muslims from the clutches of the British imperialists? Who was so passionate about his Muslim compatriots? In his zest to establish Aligarh University, allegedly he once claimed that he would not hesitate to go to a tawaif (prostitute) for its funding. Perhaps he deemed it appropriate to invest haram (forbidden) money into a halal (permissible) noble institution; but that’s another tangent sticking out of the scope of this essay.
Or should we believe a scholar who has devoted his life to serve TURE Islam - not any of the politicized versiona of it? As the current Mufti-e-azam (grand Mufti) of Pakistan, he is not only a scholar and a man of God but as a Justice he is a man of law too. He has authored a multitude of books and papers on Islamic jurisprudence, society, law, economy, family, and so forth.
Judging from the current state of affairs in Pakistan and Justice Uthmani’s extensive efforts towards understanding of Ture Islam for the confused Muslims of the Indo-Pak, particularly the secularized bunch; the man must be doing something right.
Anyhow, perhaps by the time SA Khan came along, the English had learned that proxy rule was more profitable than their previous modus operandi of brutal force, and for a successful execution one required puppet partners in the client state. Someone who would fit any or all of the following profiles: (a) nothing common with the masses except ethnicity (b) primarily inept but has the relevant lineage (c) extremely corrupt and brutal dictator.
Apparently SA Khan fit one of those profiles to overhaul the Muslim mindset – away from Islam and towards the western secularism. It makes one wonder how he actually earned the knighthood.
One also wonders why later on other prominent Muslim scholars who had much more knowledge of Islam were sidelined by the Farangi Sarkar. After all, Muslims of the subcontinent demanded a sovereign Islamic state where they could freely practice Islam, as well as advance in modern sciences, thus deserved a leader who could deliver both. Not that I’m accusing Jinnah & Co of insincerity. I’m only curious about Queen Mum and her representatives’ motives.
The fact remains, it was a gross mismatch of leader vis a vis the masses, where countless numbers of the latter sacrificed their lives and property for the sake of Islam at the behest of the former, yet neither Islam nor science has prospered in the country since inception.
If one conducts a quick global survey of the formerly colonized nations, none but only few have progressed in any real sense of the word (hint: Pakistan is not included in the few). The former masters only have to ensure that succeeding rulers fit one of the aforementioned criteria.
These selected leaders naturally surround themselves with likeminded degenerates, who in turn continue this process through nepotism and cronyism, until the chain ends. Consequently, the newly empowered leaders, bureaucrats, aristocrats, and all other little rats plague the country until it becomes easier for masses to conform to the endemic corruption than to stand up to it.
Today…
We have universities but our crème de la crème contributes to economies other than our own and frantically struggles for an acceptable identity.
Our youth have degrees but we fail to alleviate unemployment.
Our masses keep sliding into the abysmal destitution; agriculture fails to eliminate rising hunger; our poor are forced to sell their young into slavery in order to survive from day to day.
Our law enforcement agencies serve foreign governments; the judiciary looks on while our innocent are publicly robbed, maimed, killed, and gang raped with impunity.
Our secularly enlightened wonder why dancing and singing is disreputable work, especially when the hira mundi wields substantial power over our secular elite.
Our masses worship Allah but cannot distinguish between permissible and forbidden by Him; the self-proclaimed clerics issue edicts to obliterate their competing clergy.
Our secular politicians promise democracy but end up hanged or in exile after brazen pillaging.
Our formidable army kills our own.
Today we a have nuclear bomb but neither energy nor power.
Despite our wish and zeal to advance economically, politically, and technologically, our former masters would not allow us. They would either exact punishment on us for such a brazen insubordination by bombarding us back to the Stone Age. On the other hand, if they reward our ambitiousness… they may bombard us forward to the end of our time.
Tragically, SA Khan and his ilk’s efforts to secularize the sub-continent’s Muslims at the expense of religion, has caused more harm to the very people. Our futile effort to mix oil and water with its contradictory implementation of a defunct and fundamentally flawed system which tries to separate religion and politics, has neither established democracy nor are we able to live by Shari’a. Not only we have lost our spiritual direction, technologically we lag behind advanced nations by decades, if not centuries. The terrorized masses, with nothing more but their faith and/or lives to lose, have been branded “Terrorists” and condemned by our own elite.
While composing an essay on history of the Pakistan as a freshman in college, I came upon Khwaja Nazim Uddin’s biography at the university library during my research. In that book, the most unforgettable remark to date for me is his claim that the corruption in the government of Pakistan is like grease in machinery. While he was referring to our nation’s infancy, today it seems the whole country has drowned in that grease.
But there is light at the end of this dark tunnel, which the greedy myopic colonialists and their local puppets could not see. Witness it for yourselves: while the endemic moral corruption, plundering, oppression, and unbridled commercialization of education continues to direct the masses to the madrasa and brighten our spiritual roots, a rising number of our youth are seeking refuge from Allah. While the media fails to report this tremendous trend, more Pakistanis are rushing to the Masjids in the wake of War on Terror that some refer to as WWIV and others as the Long War. More and more Muslim women continue to discover their true identity and proudly demonstrate it by veiling themselves according to the Islamic dress code. Their newfound zest is rivaled by an equally increasing number of young Muslim men who grow beards to emulate the Prophet (pbuh) instead of making a fashion statement.
As they watch the naturally growing grass roots movement of Ture Islamic revival, the west and their influenced local proponents of westernization are perplexed at how they managed to create the very force it intended to eliminate. In its bewilderment, their greed coated intelligence is at a loss to reverse this trend. They helplessly witness this tsunami rise from the bottom of the oceanic pit they dug for the Muslim masses, as it rapidly gathers momentum to reach the heights unseen in history. It is only a matter of time when it comes crashing down to devastate the dissent against Allah, and He knows best when that time will come.
The anti-Muslims are revered for their ability to plan for decades or centuries in an unpredictable future. Unbeknownst to them, the True Muslims (not the followers of politicized Islam) plan for the inevitable ultimate future – the hereafter. Having acquired some experience in planning I know that successful planning demands optimum knowledge. That optimum knowledge only belongs to Allah, and He is the Wisest of all to have given us this way of life – Islam; all we need to do is to Obey Him as He should be obeyed. Regardless of obedience and disobedience, and He will have our submission. It is our choice whether we submit to him on our own before His wrath incapacitates us, or afterwards.
So come… the surf is up! Ride this wave, for it will lead you to the eternal pleasures and happiness in the Gardens of Eden, underneath which rivers flow and you will abide therein forever; lest you may be reduced to debris in the aftermath of His Wrath for disobedience.
Indeed, Allah the Exalted is the Greatest!
very nicely written, but not many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are the rapists, if any. It`s the traditional so called ones who only possess a muslim name, but follow the blind and confused culture instead of Quran.
The following essay may shed some more light on the topic
The Tsunami Alert
“[I]n their (old Islamic scholars) days the science had not advanced, and nothing was there to draw their attention towards laws of nature and correct their errors. Thus, these reasons and their many other reasons were such that they (scholars) did not pay attention to the Quranic language … for example, in Ibrahim (pbuh)’s case there is no clear or tangible evidence that he was actually thrown in the fire, but they (scholars) did not pay attention to it.” (Transliteration)
“Shocking” would be an understatement to describe the preceding claim; considering it was said by a revered Indo-Pak Muslim scholar/reformer – Sir Syed Ahmed Khan, and reported by Justice Taqi Uthmani in his Uloom ul Quran.
The Justice further recalls SA Khan to claim in his misleading exegesis of the Quran that “[s]ince Ibrahim (pbuh)’s survival from the fire was out of the scientific realm of his contemporary western sciences, he and his ilk reduced the basic principles of the Quran and manipulated its meanings to suit their arguments. They declared that angels, jinn and Satan to be superstitions and miracles of the prophets (pbut) were supernatural events at best as a reason to disbelieve in them.” (Transliteration)
The question is: who is right? a sub-continental Knight – who instigated the reform which eventually brought about the freedom for Indian Muslims from the clutches of the British imperialists? Who was so passionate about his Muslim compatriots? In his zest to establish Aligarh University, allegedly he once claimed that he would not hesitate to go to a tawaif (prostitute) for its funding. Perhaps he deemed it appropriate to invest haram (forbidden) money into a halal (permissible) noble institution; but that’s another tangent sticking out of the scope of this essay.
Or should we believe a scholar who has devoted his life to serve TURE Islam - not any of the politicized versiona of it? As the current Mufti-e-azam (grand Mufti) of Pakistan, he is not only a scholar and a man of God but as a Justice he is a man of law too. He has authored a multitude of books and papers on Islamic jurisprudence, society, law, economy, family, and so forth.
Judging from the current state of affairs in Pakistan and Justice Uthmani’s extensive efforts towards understanding of Ture Islam for the confused Muslims of the Indo-Pak, particularly the secularized bunch; the man must be doing something right.
Anyhow, perhaps by the time SA Khan came along, the English had learned that proxy rule was more profitable than their previous modus operandi of brutal force, and for a successful execution one required puppet partners in the client state. Someone who would fit any or all of the following profiles: (a) nothing common with the masses except ethnicity (b) primarily inept but has the relevant lineage (c) extremely corrupt and brutal dictator.
Apparently SA Khan fit one of those profiles to overhaul the Muslim mindset – away from Islam and towards the western secularism. It makes one wonder how he actually earned the knighthood.
One also wonders why later on other prominent Muslim scholars who had much more knowledge of Islam were sidelined by the Farangi Sarkar. After all, Muslims of the subcontinent demanded a sovereign Islamic state where they could freely practice Islam, as well as advance in modern sciences, thus deserved a leader who could deliver both. Not that I’m accusing Jinnah & Co of insincerity. I’m only curious about Queen Mum and her representatives’ motives.
The fact remains, it was a gross mismatch of leader vis a vis the masses, where countless numbers of the latter sacrificed their lives and property for the sake of Islam at the behest of the former, yet neither Islam nor science has prospered in the country since inception.
If one conducts a quick global survey of the formerly colonized nations, none but only few have progressed in any real sense of the word (hint: Pakistan is not included in the few). The former masters only have to ensure that succeeding rulers fit one of the aforementioned criteria.
These selected leaders naturally surround themselves with likeminded degenerates, who in turn continue this process through nepotism and cronyism, until the chain ends. Consequently, the newly empowered leaders, bureaucrats, aristocrats, and all other little rats plague the country until it becomes easier for masses to conform to the endemic corruption than to stand up to it.
Today…
We have universities but our crème de la crème contributes to economies other than our own and frantically struggles for an acceptable identity.
Our youth have degrees but we fail to alleviate unemployment.
Our masses keep sliding into the abysmal destitution; agriculture fails to eliminate rising hunger; our poor are forced to sell their young into slavery in order to survive from day to day.
Our law enforcement agencies serve foreign governments; the judiciary looks on while our innocent are publicly robbed, maimed, killed, and gang raped with impunity.
Our secularly enlightened wonder why dancing and singing is disreputable work, especially when the hira mundi wields substantial power over our secular elite.
Our masses worship Allah but cannot distinguish between permissible and forbidden by Him; the self-proclaimed clerics issue edicts to obliterate their competing clergy.
Our secular politicians promise democracy but end up hanged or in exile after brazen pillaging.
Our formidable army kills our own.
Today we a have nuclear bomb but neither energy nor power.
Despite our wish and zeal to advance economically, politically, and technologically, our former masters would not allow us. They would either exact punishment on us for such a brazen insubordination by bombarding us back to the Stone Age. On the other hand, if they reward our ambitiousness… they may bombard us forward to the end of our time.
Tragically, SA Khan and his ilk’s efforts to secularize the sub-continent’s Muslims at the expense of religion, has caused more harm to the very people. Our futile effort to mix oil and water with its contradictory implementation of a defunct and fundamentally flawed system which tries to separate religion and politics, has neither established democracy nor are we able to live by Shari’a. Not only we have lost our spiritual direction, technologically we lag behind advanced nations by decades, if not centuries. The terrorized masses, with nothing more but their faith and/or lives to lose, have been branded “Terrorists” and condemned by our own elite.
While composing an essay on history of the Pakistan as a freshman in college, I came upon Khwaja Nazim Uddin’s biography at the university library during my research. In that book, the most unforgettable remark to date for me is his claim that the corruption in the government of Pakistan is like grease in machinery. While he was referring to our nation’s infancy, today it seems the whole country has drowned in that grease.
But there is light at the end of this dark tunnel, which the greedy myopic colonialists and their local puppets could not see. Witness it for yourselves: while the endemic moral corruption, plundering, oppression, and unbridled commercialization of education continues to direct the masses to the madrasa and brighten our spiritual roots, a rising number of our youth are seeking refuge from Allah. While the media fails to report this tremendous trend, more Pakistanis are rushing to the Masjids in the wake of War on Terror that some refer to as WWIV and others as the Long War. More and more Muslim women continue to discover their true identity and proudly demonstrate it by veiling themselves according to the Islamic dress code. Their newfound zest is rivaled by an equally increasing number of young Muslim men who grow beards to emulate the Prophet (pbuh) instead of making a fashion statement.
As they watch the naturally growing grass roots movement of Ture Islamic revival, the west and their influenced local proponents of westernization are perplexed at how they managed to create the very force it intended to eliminate. In its bewilderment, their greed coated intelligence is at a loss to reverse this trend. They helplessly witness this tsunami rise from the bottom of the oceanic pit they dug for the Muslim masses, as it rapidly gathers momentum to reach the heights unseen in history. It is only a matter of time when it comes crashing down to devastate the dissent against Allah, and He knows best when that time will come.
The anti-Muslims are revered for their ability to plan for decades or centuries in an unpredictable future. Unbeknownst to them, the True Muslims (not the followers of politicized Islam) plan for the inevitable ultimate future – the hereafter. Having acquired some experience in planning I know that successful planning demands optimum knowledge. That optimum knowledge only belongs to Allah, and He is the Wisest of all to have given us this way of life – Islam; all we need to do is to Obey Him as He should be obeyed. Regardless of obedience and disobedience, and He will have our submission. It is our choice whether we submit to him on our own before His wrath incapacitates us, or afterwards.
So come… the surf is up! Ride this wave, for it will lead you to the eternal pleasures and happiness in the Gardens of Eden, underneath which rivers flow and you will abide therein forever; lest you may be reduced to debris in the aftermath of His Wrath for disobedience.
Indeed, Allah the Exalted is the Greatest!
#4 Posted by twintopaz on April 7, 2005 4:07:23 am
Sajal...thought provoking article. You and for that matter all Pakistani women should be grateful that Pakistan is now governed by President Musharaf who clearly accepts that Hadood Ordinance is faulty and requires drastic changes...
Infact a committee head by Justice retd. Majida Rizvi has already done the home work and presented the required amendments long time back. The only thing now required is will by our legislators..
keep writing
Infact a committee head by Justice retd. Majida Rizvi has already done the home work and presented the required amendments long time back. The only thing now required is will by our legislators..
keep writing
#5 Posted by catfischblues on April 7, 2005 5:59:34 am
Truly insightful and provocative in its nature. Very well written indeed. Do keep writing.
However, I would like to know is anything being done about the Hadood laws? Is there any reason that we can be hopeful towards the laws repeal?
However, I would like to know is anything being done about the Hadood laws? Is there any reason that we can be hopeful towards the laws repeal?
#6 Posted by KaalChakra on April 7, 2005 6:23:02 am
re: ntsyed # 3
``not many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are the rapists, if any. It`s the traditional so called ones who only possess a muslim name, but follow the blind and confused culture instead of Quran.``
Syed Saheb. The people who follow the blind and confused culture are rapists?
``not many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are the rapists, if any. It`s the traditional so called ones who only possess a muslim name, but follow the blind and confused culture instead of Quran.``
Syed Saheb. The people who follow the blind and confused culture are rapists?
#7 Posted by ana on April 7, 2005 6:49:04 am
the political/theocratic establishment in pakistan would need to possess a conscience to journey through to begin with. perhaps some do but it has not been enough to cast away this ordinance. a law that in my opinion is one of the worst things we have inherited and held on to from the zia jahilia.
regarding your footnote sajal, there are those who have stood up for the rights and protection of women, and have fallen. hopefully they`ve gotten back up on their feet but little is heard of them. and some of us brought up the hudood ordinance here on chowk not too long ago, and there wasn`t much response at all. as cynical as i am about change, i still hope that ALL women will be protected by the law someday. but the law as it stands today has been an ass more or less.
pakistan appears to be moving forward inspite of the hudood ordinance, but appearances are deceiving, and wasn`t it our own father of the nation who said something to the effect of no country being able to move forward unless both men and women walk side by side?
the things we have cast aside, and the things we`ve held on to over the years. . .
--ana
regarding your footnote sajal, there are those who have stood up for the rights and protection of women, and have fallen. hopefully they`ve gotten back up on their feet but little is heard of them. and some of us brought up the hudood ordinance here on chowk not too long ago, and there wasn`t much response at all. as cynical as i am about change, i still hope that ALL women will be protected by the law someday. but the law as it stands today has been an ass more or less.
pakistan appears to be moving forward inspite of the hudood ordinance, but appearances are deceiving, and wasn`t it our own father of the nation who said something to the effect of no country being able to move forward unless both men and women walk side by side?
the things we have cast aside, and the things we`ve held on to over the years. . .
--ana
#8 Posted by temporal on April 7, 2005 7:16:13 am
sajal:
welcome to chowk
this is more focussed and better written than the other one:)
nts #3:
... but not many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are the rapists, if any.
it seems today it is written in Loh e Mahfooz that i should be asking you two queries:)
1: how many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are rapists according to your sources of information AND would you share those sources with us?
...It`s the traditional so called ones who only possess a muslim name, but follow the blind and confused culture instead of Quran.
2: Can you elaborate for us who are these so called one? where do they live? what are there numbers? how can we show them the true path to islam so they stop raping?
rgds
t
welcome to chowk
this is more focussed and better written than the other one:)
nts #3:
... but not many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are the rapists, if any.
it seems today it is written in Loh e Mahfooz that i should be asking you two queries:)
1: how many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are rapists according to your sources of information AND would you share those sources with us?
...It`s the traditional so called ones who only possess a muslim name, but follow the blind and confused culture instead of Quran.
2: Can you elaborate for us who are these so called one? where do they live? what are there numbers? how can we show them the true path to islam so they stop raping?
rgds
t
#9 Posted by echoboom on April 7, 2005 8:21:52 am
``hUm huay kaafir, toa voh kaafir musalmaaN ho gaya``
The times they are a`changin`...
Burquaas, Abayaas, and Hijaabs are in--big time.
Glorious and heart warming news that the Paki english press, on `pause` since their Daddys abandoned them, prefers not to know.
But what can you do . Facts are Facts--and internet & e-mails are whirring & buzzing.
``hUm huay kaafir, toa voh kaafir musalmaaN ho gaya``
tr:
``When I abandoned Islam and became a kaafir (for her sake), she embraced Islam``!
paraphrase :
in Musharraf`s Raushan-Khayalistan
``We embraced our master`s creed to please and appease him , but Lo and behold! he turns around and embraces another creed.!
READ and ENJOY!
Click here
The times they are a`changin`...
Burquaas, Abayaas, and Hijaabs are in--big time.
Glorious and heart warming news that the Paki english press, on `pause` since their Daddys abandoned them, prefers not to know.
But what can you do . Facts are Facts--and internet & e-mails are whirring & buzzing.
``hUm huay kaafir, toa voh kaafir musalmaaN ho gaya``
tr:
``When I abandoned Islam and became a kaafir (for her sake), she embraced Islam``!
paraphrase :
in Musharraf`s Raushan-Khayalistan
``We embraced our master`s creed to please and appease him , but Lo and behold! he turns around and embraces another creed.!
READ and ENJOY!
Click here
#10 Posted by ShoreSahib on April 7, 2005 8:33:37 am
Great Article, Miss Javid.
Very well written and articulate. Please keep writing.
Very well written and articulate. Please keep writing.
#11 Posted by KaalChakra on April 7, 2005 9:14:58 am
re: ana # 7
The political dynamics of conservatives and liberals is always such that keeping religious laws at bay is far easier than casting them aside once they are put in place.
The political dynamics of conservatives and liberals is always such that keeping religious laws at bay is far easier than casting them aside once they are put in place.
#12 Posted by paindupastry on April 7, 2005 9:48:43 am
yet another thought provoking article on the status of women in the ``land of the pure``. im not sure of what exactly is happening to counter these huddod laws. could someone who knows about it, please give us an update of what the situation is.
#13 Posted by echoboom on April 7, 2005 9:53:12 am
A fascinating insight. A highly regarded Professor of Islamic Law and holding top position in his field speaks.
Islamic Law IS the answer, says David Forte: Advisor to the Vatican (Pope) and President Bush.
Date: 2005-03-09
David Forte, a consultor to the Pontifical Council for the Family and an adviser to President George Bush on Islamic affairs, shared with ZENIT why he believes there are facets of Islamic law that are hospitable to the development of free societies.
Forte is a law professor at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law at Cleveland State University and author of ``Studies in Islamic Law: Classical and Contemporary Application`` (Austin & Winfield).
Interview with David Forte
Islamic Law IS the answer, says David Forte: Advisor to the Vatican (Pope) and President Bush.
Date: 2005-03-09
David Forte, a consultor to the Pontifical Council for the Family and an adviser to President George Bush on Islamic affairs, shared with ZENIT why he believes there are facets of Islamic law that are hospitable to the development of free societies.
Forte is a law professor at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law at Cleveland State University and author of ``Studies in Islamic Law: Classical and Contemporary Application`` (Austin & Winfield).
Interview with David Forte
#14 Posted by arjun_m on April 7, 2005 11:24:03 am
#4 by twintopaz on April 7, 2005 4:07am PT
Pakistan is now governed by President Musharaf who clearly accepts that Hadood Ordinance is faulty and requires drastic changes...
how long has musharraf been in power and what moves has he made against this law?
It took 2 minutes and one phone call for him to ditch the taliban....so don`t give us some BS about democratic change requiring time and all that....
Pakistan is now governed by President Musharaf who clearly accepts that Hadood Ordinance is faulty and requires drastic changes...
how long has musharraf been in power and what moves has he made against this law?
It took 2 minutes and one phone call for him to ditch the taliban....so don`t give us some BS about democratic change requiring time and all that....
#15 Posted by ntsyed on April 7, 2005 11:40:26 am
Re: #6 - ``Syed Saheb. The people who follow the blind and confused culture are rapists?``
Re: #8 -
``1: how many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are rapists according to your sources of information AND would you share those sources with us?
2: Can you elaborate for us who are these so called one? where do they live? what are there numbers? how can we show them the true path to islam so they stop raping?``
One can start from Meeran Wala - Mukhtaran gang rape fame, and there are many places like that in the rural Pakistan. Then one will find fake peers and buzurgs running amok throughout the country. Then there are spoiled brats of the secularized pseudo western rich hiding behind their father/uncle`s uniforms and/or political clout. Then we have the political foot soldiers, who use this method of canvassing for their candidate. Not to forget the corrupt politicians and feudal lords and law enforcement brass. Some may have heard of 5 or 6 men gang raping two sisters in their home after tying up the other members of the family, and if I remember correctly, they did the deed in broad day light. Some of them were actual plain clothes policemen, and others were highly connected in that department.
As for #8`s q1 - the ``if any`` contains the answer. Since no human being except the Prophets of Allah (peace be upon them) can be infallible, one cannot discount mistakes and even heinous crimes by anyone, and even God fearing men can be swayed by Shaitaan, even if momentarily, to commit such crimes under whatever circumstance. The operative word here is `can` - it is not necessary that they `do`.
The point is that just because some Muslims who follow politicized versions of Islam for whatever benefit and oppress men, women, or clans, etc, to suit their agendas, doesn`t mean Islam needs to be changed as some pseudo uninformed seculars keep shouting for.
In order to change a system one needs to study it first, compare it with the most successful one(s) for gap analysis, and only then one can suggest/ask for a change. Most people who study Islam end up embracing it and some of them become incredible servants of Allah - Yousuf Islam, Bilal Philips, etc. That`s why now the anti-muslim groups are trying hard to change it without allowing anyone to study it first. The westernized muslim youth are their tools in this wretched attemp. If God forbid things get worse, the ensuing violence against Muslims in the west will make holocaust, Bosnia, and recent violence in Gujrat look like child`s play. The frustrated public non-muslims will not care if a muslim practices Islam or not. Just like a sikh was shot to after 9/11 becuase the redneck thought he was a muslim. In Bosnia, Sarajevo neighbor killed their Muslim neighbors just because the latter had green color in the bathroom, regardless of the fact that most of the massacred Muslims did not even know about Islam, let alone practice it.
``Times are achanging``, and in US & UK, their constitutions are changing too. Recent surveys in the US show that 44% of Americans say that Muslim Americans` rights should be curtailed, and 47% oppose that. The margin of error is plus/minus 3%. So don`t count on the Bill of Rights.
What I say here is not grabbed out of thin air. I have lived the life of an ignorant in the west for far too long. I have seen where they come from and where they are headed. I know their system inside out. All praises be to Allah, He allowed me to compare those systems with Islam - apples to apples, so to speak - and then I share my conclusions here.
Some self-proclaimed enlightened seculars here profess to know all about Islam and that`s why they say they don`t like Islam. Once engaged in debates, it turns out they don`t even know the basics of Islam. I wouldn`t be surprised to find out if they`ve never prayed in their entire lives, let alone read the Quran to at least see for themselves what all the fuss is about, and I personally know people like that.
Re: #8 -
``1: how many ``God fearing`` Muslim men are rapists according to your sources of information AND would you share those sources with us?
2: Can you elaborate for us who are these so called one? where do they live? what are there numbers? how can we show them the true path to islam so they stop raping?``
One can start from Meeran Wala - Mukhtaran gang rape fame, and there are many places like that in the rural Pakistan. Then one will find fake peers and buzurgs running amok throughout the country. Then there are spoiled brats of the secularized pseudo western rich hiding behind their father/uncle`s uniforms and/or political clout. Then we have the political foot soldiers, who use this method of canvassing for their candidate. Not to forget the corrupt politicians and feudal lords and law enforcement brass. Some may have heard of 5 or 6 men gang raping two sisters in their home after tying up the other members of the family, and if I remember correctly, they did the deed in broad day light. Some of them were actual plain clothes policemen, and others were highly connected in that department.
As for #8`s q1 - the ``if any`` contains the answer. Since no human being except the Prophets of Allah (peace be upon them) can be infallible, one cannot discount mistakes and even heinous crimes by anyone, and even God fearing men can be swayed by Shaitaan, even if momentarily, to commit such crimes under whatever circumstance. The operative word here is `can` - it is not necessary that they `do`.
The point is that just because some Muslims who follow politicized versions of Islam for whatever benefit and oppress men, women, or clans, etc, to suit their agendas, doesn`t mean Islam needs to be changed as some pseudo uninformed seculars keep shouting for.
In order to change a system one needs to study it first, compare it with the most successful one(s) for gap analysis, and only then one can suggest/ask for a change. Most people who study Islam end up embracing it and some of them become incredible servants of Allah - Yousuf Islam, Bilal Philips, etc. That`s why now the anti-muslim groups are trying hard to change it without allowing anyone to study it first. The westernized muslim youth are their tools in this wretched attemp. If God forbid things get worse, the ensuing violence against Muslims in the west will make holocaust, Bosnia, and recent violence in Gujrat look like child`s play. The frustrated public non-muslims will not care if a muslim practices Islam or not. Just like a sikh was shot to after 9/11 becuase the redneck thought he was a muslim. In Bosnia, Sarajevo neighbor killed their Muslim neighbors just because the latter had green color in the bathroom, regardless of the fact that most of the massacred Muslims did not even know about Islam, let alone practice it.
``Times are achanging``, and in US & UK, their constitutions are changing too. Recent surveys in the US show that 44% of Americans say that Muslim Americans` rights should be curtailed, and 47% oppose that. The margin of error is plus/minus 3%. So don`t count on the Bill of Rights.
What I say here is not grabbed out of thin air. I have lived the life of an ignorant in the west for far too long. I have seen where they come from and where they are headed. I know their system inside out. All praises be to Allah, He allowed me to compare those systems with Islam - apples to apples, so to speak - and then I share my conclusions here.
Some self-proclaimed enlightened seculars here profess to know all about Islam and that`s why they say they don`t like Islam. Once engaged in debates, it turns out they don`t even know the basics of Islam. I wouldn`t be surprised to find out if they`ve never prayed in their entire lives, let alone read the Quran to at least see for themselves what all the fuss is about, and I personally know people like that.
#16 Posted by ana on April 7, 2005 11:56:12 am
arjun:
samjha karo. . . bush pulls one end of musharraf, and the ``mullahs`` in favor of the hudood pull the other. i thought since you are all-knowing, you would know thaaat.
samjha karo. . . bush pulls one end of musharraf, and the ``mullahs`` in favor of the hudood pull the other. i thought since you are all-knowing, you would know thaaat.
#17 Posted by sajal on April 7, 2005 12:45:03 pm
Thankyou everybody.
This is my first article and your kind and encouraging words mean a lot.
sajal javid
This is my first article and your kind and encouraging words mean a lot.
sajal javid
#18 Posted by sajal on April 7, 2005 12:47:09 pm
Also my question rape for power or sex?
can somebody shed some light on that .
can somebody shed some light on that .
#19 Posted by temporal on April 7, 2005 1:02:50 pm
nts:
just a quick response
...Some self-proclaimed enlightened seculars here profess to know all about Islam...Once engaged in debates, it turns out they don`t even know the basics of Islam.
i am just amazed that you are one of them when you loudly proclaim:
....Since no human being except the Prophets of Allah (peace be upon them) can be infallible,...
my prophet muhammad (saw) was a human being...not an infallible angel...maybe we read different qur`ans...maybe we believe in different Allahs...naoozobillah!
no rgds
just a quick response
...Some self-proclaimed enlightened seculars here profess to know all about Islam...Once engaged in debates, it turns out they don`t even know the basics of Islam.
i am just amazed that you are one of them when you loudly proclaim:
....Since no human being except the Prophets of Allah (peace be upon them) can be infallible,...
my prophet muhammad (saw) was a human being...not an infallible angel...maybe we read different qur`ans...maybe we believe in different Allahs...naoozobillah!
no rgds
#20 Posted by temporal on April 7, 2005 1:05:42 pm
sajal:
a rape is a rape is a rape is a rape
it is a traumatic experience whether for power or sex
lve
t
ps: my previous post was in response to #15
a rape is a rape is a rape is a rape
it is a traumatic experience whether for power or sex
lve
t
ps: my previous post was in response to #15
#21 Posted by catfischblues on April 7, 2005 3:55:47 pm
Sajal,
I woud have to agree with temporal.
However, it depends how your defining `sex`. Ordinary sexual pleasure that is a natural desire? then I should think that men will look for sex the way normal men would. Sex because of sadistic pleasure? maybe. Rape is the `punishment` for a woman`s `wrong doings` due to which, power does come into play. The assertion of power is predominant in rape. The answere to this question is complex.
I woud have to agree with temporal.
However, it depends how your defining `sex`. Ordinary sexual pleasure that is a natural desire? then I should think that men will look for sex the way normal men would. Sex because of sadistic pleasure? maybe. Rape is the `punishment` for a woman`s `wrong doings` due to which, power does come into play. The assertion of power is predominant in rape. The answere to this question is complex.
#22 Posted by KaalChakra on April 7, 2005 3:55:51 pm
ntsyed saheb
According to the Daily Times, Islam has now employed dacoits to spread its message -
According to Jang, (February 10, 2005) three dacoits were killed in a police encounter near Gujranwala. The dacoits killed three police officials too before they were shot. The police said the high official casualty was because of the way in which the dacoits faced the police. They said that the three seemed to be trained guerrillas who had come out of jihad and turned to robbery.
The truth is that, apart from being adept in commando training, the robbers these days wear beards and observe the tenets of Islam. They have been reported as telling their victims that they should say namaz and read the Quran and give money in charity. As they rob the inmates of a house they appreciate their observance of namaz and advise their women to observe the Islamic veil.
According to the Daily Times, Islam has now employed dacoits to spread its message -
According to Jang, (February 10, 2005) three dacoits were killed in a police encounter near Gujranwala. The dacoits killed three police officials too before they were shot. The police said the high official casualty was because of the way in which the dacoits faced the police. They said that the three seemed to be trained guerrillas who had come out of jihad and turned to robbery.
The truth is that, apart from being adept in commando training, the robbers these days wear beards and observe the tenets of Islam. They have been reported as telling their victims that they should say namaz and read the Quran and give money in charity. As they rob the inmates of a house they appreciate their observance of namaz and advise their women to observe the Islamic veil.
#23 Posted by satyamvada on April 7, 2005 5:10:11 pm
Sajal,
You should be wary of people like temporal because of the lying he does.
Temporal knows that in Pakistan, a rape until seen by 4 males is not a crime.
Temporal also knows that honor killing is not a crime in Pakistan.
However, he doesnt come out and say these things, instead he hides behind
generic disclaimers.
It is not that Pakistan doesnt have a law - Pakistan does have law but it is based
on 7th century arabia.
#24 Posted by jay on April 7, 2005 5:15:12 pm
What a discussion,
There are various ways to distract from the reality of pakistan, the one from temporal takes the cake. What is rape, is it sex or power. The pathetic educatyed of pakistan have to learn is that what is important is to change the social values that has sustained hoodood. One among thos factors is the diverion to minuetae, what is rape, the legal and definition per the book.
Make the first step, tell the world that honour killing is supported by hoodood laws of pakistan. Tell the world that hoodood reflects the values of pak society and that is why even the mighty mushy did not dare to change it. Hoodood exists because romairs and temporals come up with excuses, honour killing is a tribal custom, so be it, but it is legalised and decriminalised by hoodood.
It is the lies and attempts to put a spin on reality that is supporting the decline of pakistan. Tell the world marathon is banned in pakistan, the latest. tell the world that jihadis are in power.
There are various ways to distract from the reality of pakistan, the one from temporal takes the cake. What is rape, is it sex or power. The pathetic educatyed of pakistan have to learn is that what is important is to change the social values that has sustained hoodood. One among thos factors is the diverion to minuetae, what is rape, the legal and definition per the book.
Make the first step, tell the world that honour killing is supported by hoodood laws of pakistan. Tell the world that hoodood reflects the values of pak society and that is why even the mighty mushy did not dare to change it. Hoodood exists because romairs and temporals come up with excuses, honour killing is a tribal custom, so be it, but it is legalised and decriminalised by hoodood.
It is the lies and attempts to put a spin on reality that is supporting the decline of pakistan. Tell the world marathon is banned in pakistan, the latest. tell the world that jihadis are in power.
#25 Posted by arjun_m on April 7, 2005 5:17:24 pm
#23 by satyamvada on April 7, 2005 5:10pm PT
Temporal knows that in Pakistan, a rape until seen by 4 males is not a crime.
Temporal also knows that honor killing is not a crime in Pakistan.
How dare you post facts that make pakiland look bad...you pakistan/muslim hating indian RSS bigot you...
Temporal knows that in Pakistan, a rape until seen by 4 males is not a crime.
Temporal also knows that honor killing is not a crime in Pakistan.
How dare you post facts that make pakiland look bad...you pakistan/muslim hating indian RSS bigot you...
#26 Posted by reenash on April 7, 2005 5:56:23 pm
aha_snark,
what nonsense ar u writing, yes in new delhi, india, some can get away with rape bec of
power, but to say the laws are like those in pak is really tickling my funny bone, read
indian laws bef making comments
what nonsense ar u writing, yes in new delhi, india, some can get away with rape bec of
power, but to say the laws are like those in pak is really tickling my funny bone, read
indian laws bef making comments
#27 Posted by temporal on April 7, 2005 6:03:37 pm
heheh
when three abdul-hates repeat lies ( #23, 24,25) in a seemingly co-ordinated hat-trick there must be an Allah!
you guys do not read .. you just write...balderdash
you hateful pitiable mockery of human beings!
when three abdul-hates repeat lies ( #23, 24,25) in a seemingly co-ordinated hat-trick there must be an Allah!
you guys do not read .. you just write...balderdash
you hateful pitiable mockery of human beings!
#28 Posted by satyamvada on April 7, 2005 6:16:53 pm
Temporal,
you may mock, you may abuse, but surely you cannot run from the truth, my friend.
You did not even answer Sajal`s question, but you give vague generalizations.
It is not as if the author of this article is ignorant.
You may run from telling the truth, but you cannot hide from our conscience.
#29 Posted by ShoreSahib on April 7, 2005 7:33:34 pm
A rape is a rape is a rape is NOT JUST A RAPE.
Yes, a Rape is a brutal vicious act but it can be motivated by various factors.
In America, rape is understood as a tool of exerting dominance over another whether it be heterosexual or homosexual rape.
The question posed by Sajal, whether the motivation for rape in Pakistani society is sexual gratification or exertion of power is a poignant one!
n my opinion, most rapes in Pakistani society and I dont mean gang rapes such as those of Mukhtar Mai are not motivated by a need to dominate women, rather Rape is a means of sexual gratification in our sex starved society. Men simply dont have access to women, as most women in Pakistan are closely chaperoned and rarely left alone.
Women already enjoy a subjugated status in Pakistan, why would there be a need to further humiliate them through rape. I believe these rapists when presented with the opportunity of sexual gratification view the available woman as a sexual toy and nothing more. So many rapes take place in Pakistan between relatives, whether it be father in law and daughter in law, sister in law and brother in law, between neighbors, uncles and nieces, cousins etc.
Men in Pakistan dont rape because they want to dominate women. Hello, They are already dominated. Rather they rape simply because They Can and they get away with it.
In the absence of rape counseling and public support, its a miracle how these victims of rape survive considering the fact that most of them dont report their rapes, and in many cases have to live in close quarters with their aggressors.
Pakistani Muslims like ntsyed, echoboom and all the Abdul Self Delusions harp on and on about the beauty of Islam and the rights afforded to women, BLAH BLAH BLAH. Our religion cant even promise justice to its mothers and daughters. Islam does not exist in a vacuum. It lives in the lives of the Muslims, and we Muslims of Pakistan have failed Islam and sadly enough, Islam has failed to guide us and God`s perfect religion has been perverted and disfigured beyond recognition.
The funny thing is that the MMA has grabbed a hold of this perverted, disfigured and soul less rotten corpse of Islam and run with it with all its might. Truly Tragic.
Yes, a Rape is a brutal vicious act but it can be motivated by various factors.
In America, rape is understood as a tool of exerting dominance over another whether it be heterosexual or homosexual rape.
The question posed by Sajal, whether the motivation for rape in Pakistani society is sexual gratification or exertion of power is a poignant one!
n my opinion, most rapes in Pakistani society and I dont mean gang rapes such as those of Mukhtar Mai are not motivated by a need to dominate women, rather Rape is a means of sexual gratification in our sex starved society. Men simply dont have access to women, as most women in Pakistan are closely chaperoned and rarely left alone.
Women already enjoy a subjugated status in Pakistan, why would there be a need to further humiliate them through rape. I believe these rapists when presented with the opportunity of sexual gratification view the available woman as a sexual toy and nothing more. So many rapes take place in Pakistan between relatives, whether it be father in law and daughter in law, sister in law and brother in law, between neighbors, uncles and nieces, cousins etc.
Men in Pakistan dont rape because they want to dominate women. Hello, They are already dominated. Rather they rape simply because They Can and they get away with it.
In the absence of rape counseling and public support, its a miracle how these victims of rape survive considering the fact that most of them dont report their rapes, and in many cases have to live in close quarters with their aggressors.
Pakistani Muslims like ntsyed, echoboom and all the Abdul Self Delusions harp on and on about the beauty of Islam and the rights afforded to women, BLAH BLAH BLAH. Our religion cant even promise justice to its mothers and daughters. Islam does not exist in a vacuum. It lives in the lives of the Muslims, and we Muslims of Pakistan have failed Islam and sadly enough, Islam has failed to guide us and God`s perfect religion has been perverted and disfigured beyond recognition.
The funny thing is that the MMA has grabbed a hold of this perverted, disfigured and soul less rotten corpse of Islam and run with it with all its might. Truly Tragic.
#30 Posted by temporal on April 7, 2005 8:05:47 pm
SS:
well said! and agree mostly…
however
as catfischblues said…and as i suspect sajal and everyone else knows this is not a simple issue with a yes no answer…this is far more complex…
…you say …in my opinion, most rapes in Pakistani society… are not motivated by a need to dominate women, rather Rape is a means of sexual gratification in our sex starved society…..
sir, the numbers are fuzzy and only the most blatant ones get reported…but if you are exposed to the feudal inland…possession and subsequent rapes of the hari/peasants daughters/women is a routine and traditional game for them…
in the dark ages of jahiliya woman was a chattel…in the neon lights of 2005…in Pakistan most women are still chattels…
now brace yourselves by cut-n-paste spamming by brother abdul-hate to deflect this thread…
rgds
t
well said! and agree mostly…
however
as catfischblues said…and as i suspect sajal and everyone else knows this is not a simple issue with a yes no answer…this is far more complex…
…you say …in my opinion, most rapes in Pakistani society… are not motivated by a need to dominate women, rather Rape is a means of sexual gratification in our sex starved society…..
sir, the numbers are fuzzy and only the most blatant ones get reported…but if you are exposed to the feudal inland…possession and subsequent rapes of the hari/peasants daughters/women is a routine and traditional game for them…
in the dark ages of jahiliya woman was a chattel…in the neon lights of 2005…in Pakistan most women are still chattels…
now brace yourselves by cut-n-paste spamming by brother abdul-hate to deflect this thread…
rgds
t
#31 Posted by KaalChakra on April 7, 2005 8:06:38 pm
re: ShoreSahib # 29
Anything that claims to be perfect will always fail to guide mankind.
And yes, a rape is not always just a rape, just as a murder is not always just a murder.
The ability to make distinctions between seemingly similar situations is the first step to gaining any understanding. We call it `vivek` - the ability to do ``vivechana`` (analysis).
Anything that claims to be perfect will always fail to guide mankind.
And yes, a rape is not always just a rape, just as a murder is not always just a murder.
The ability to make distinctions between seemingly similar situations is the first step to gaining any understanding. We call it `vivek` - the ability to do ``vivechana`` (analysis).
#32 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 7, 2005 9:52:32 pm
ntsyed sahib,
yahan kahan baghlain jhaank rahe hein? kam az kam iss thread per aap ki nahin ban`ne wali.
temporal:
i think jay and likes are correct in saying that people like you should vigorously spread the word of injustice at home. being numb to problems at hand don`t suit poeple like you. the only hopes we have for our nation are with you. there`s no point in hiding or defending a weak character. why not stop taking pride in the imaginary image of our country of birth and start trying to improve it`s character in real sense.
???
yahan kahan baghlain jhaank rahe hein? kam az kam iss thread per aap ki nahin ban`ne wali.
temporal:
i think jay and likes are correct in saying that people like you should vigorously spread the word of injustice at home. being numb to problems at hand don`t suit poeple like you. the only hopes we have for our nation are with you. there`s no point in hiding or defending a weak character. why not stop taking pride in the imaginary image of our country of birth and start trying to improve it`s character in real sense.
???
#33 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 7, 2005 10:19:03 pm
**CORRECTION**
please read `justice` in the last post instead of `injustice`
please read `justice` in the last post instead of `injustice`
#34 Posted by ferozk on April 7, 2005 10:22:32 pm
re: sajal javid
This was a very powerful article, whose clearly stated facts burned through the mask of psuedo-faux morality of the Pakistani society.
As painful as it might be to admit the truth, I am in agreement with Tahir Nadeem`s assessment of the situation. There is an institutional hatred for women in Pakistan and women are not considered as equal citizens of Pakistan, because in a more significant sense, women are considered as lesser human beings. Pakistan is a patriarchial society, which is very conservative. This mindset, of the discrimination towards women, is condoned through a variety of means and ploys, amongst which are legal, social and economic forms of discrimination.
The law does not provide any security to rape victims in Pakistan, because the government in Pakistan actually supports the concept of rape by having laws, such as the Hudood Ordinances, which victimize the victim. The problem exists on the level of the government, which by its policies of appeasement and political expediencies does not wish to deal with this issue in a meaningful sense. The government is not interested in removing these laws from the books and no amount of hue and cry over the issue, will force it to change its mind. The reason is a simple one. If given the choice, the government of Pakistan will always look after its own political interests at the expense of the rights of a Pakistani citizen.
The government support for these laws which promote female discrimination, is a methodical policy to disenfranchize the female population of Pakistan from their rights and in the case of the women, it is a means to erase their identity, as one of individuals, from Pakistani society. This is legalized under the garb of Islam, as to prevent a serious questioning of this policy and to give it a legal framework of acceptence. In fact, Pakistani laws, which discriminate against women, are designed to carry out a gender holocaust, because women in this nation are considered and thought of as nothing more than slaves of the men.
Religion is used to perpetuate this slavery and since all laws of Pakistan are supposed to be based on the Qur`an and the Sunnah, religion is employed to support a state policy, which is nothling less than an act of state sponsered terrorism against the women and thus, can be easily classified as a crime against humanity.
The painful and bitter reality, which is hard to admit is that the root cause of these anti-female laws in Pakistan have a religious overtone to them and it does not matter whether Islam allows this sort of practice or not, because in a real sense, Islam does condone these sorts of activities by its silence on the issue. This is the real crisis of conscience in Pakistan, because what is implicit in our silence is the admission that Pakistani society lacks a conscience, which might impart a sense of tolerance and moderation in our actions.
Ciao
This was a very powerful article, whose clearly stated facts burned through the mask of psuedo-faux morality of the Pakistani society.
As painful as it might be to admit the truth, I am in agreement with Tahir Nadeem`s assessment of the situation. There is an institutional hatred for women in Pakistan and women are not considered as equal citizens of Pakistan, because in a more significant sense, women are considered as lesser human beings. Pakistan is a patriarchial society, which is very conservative. This mindset, of the discrimination towards women, is condoned through a variety of means and ploys, amongst which are legal, social and economic forms of discrimination.
The law does not provide any security to rape victims in Pakistan, because the government in Pakistan actually supports the concept of rape by having laws, such as the Hudood Ordinances, which victimize the victim. The problem exists on the level of the government, which by its policies of appeasement and political expediencies does not wish to deal with this issue in a meaningful sense. The government is not interested in removing these laws from the books and no amount of hue and cry over the issue, will force it to change its mind. The reason is a simple one. If given the choice, the government of Pakistan will always look after its own political interests at the expense of the rights of a Pakistani citizen.
The government support for these laws which promote female discrimination, is a methodical policy to disenfranchize the female population of Pakistan from their rights and in the case of the women, it is a means to erase their identity, as one of individuals, from Pakistani society. This is legalized under the garb of Islam, as to prevent a serious questioning of this policy and to give it a legal framework of acceptence. In fact, Pakistani laws, which discriminate against women, are designed to carry out a gender holocaust, because women in this nation are considered and thought of as nothing more than slaves of the men.
Religion is used to perpetuate this slavery and since all laws of Pakistan are supposed to be based on the Qur`an and the Sunnah, religion is employed to support a state policy, which is nothling less than an act of state sponsered terrorism against the women and thus, can be easily classified as a crime against humanity.
The painful and bitter reality, which is hard to admit is that the root cause of these anti-female laws in Pakistan have a religious overtone to them and it does not matter whether Islam allows this sort of practice or not, because in a real sense, Islam does condone these sorts of activities by its silence on the issue. This is the real crisis of conscience in Pakistan, because what is implicit in our silence is the admission that Pakistani society lacks a conscience, which might impart a sense of tolerance and moderation in our actions.
Ciao
#35 Posted by amrita on April 7, 2005 11:54:58 pm
Re: # 18
sajal - this was a very powerful subject and you handled it with a lot of grace. bravo! as for rape being for power or sex - well, it depends on the case. but to a lot of people, male and female, sex is power.
SS suggested that it might be because men and women are largely segregated in your country (they are, in varying degrees, in mine as well) and my reply to that is that yes, that might be true in a number of instances in which case, you`re looking at something more than rape for power or sex - you are looking at rape as a means of connection. And as terrible as rape is, such a scenario goes beyond politics (although it doesnt discount politics completely).
[Oh and T - why are you hiding from Satyamvada`s conscience? ]
sajal - this was a very powerful subject and you handled it with a lot of grace. bravo! as for rape being for power or sex - well, it depends on the case. but to a lot of people, male and female, sex is power.
SS suggested that it might be because men and women are largely segregated in your country (they are, in varying degrees, in mine as well) and my reply to that is that yes, that might be true in a number of instances in which case, you`re looking at something more than rape for power or sex - you are looking at rape as a means of connection. And as terrible as rape is, such a scenario goes beyond politics (although it doesnt discount politics completely).
[Oh and T - why are you hiding from Satyamvada`s conscience? ]
#36 Posted by ajeya on April 8, 2005 12:14:10 am
Amrita #35
Rape as a means of connecting with people! Hmm….
She IS an intellectual.
With a wicked sense of humour.
Behold:
[Oh and T - why are you hiding from Satyamvada`s conscience? ]
She’s not trying to ingratiate herself with anyone, mind you! Never!
Rape as a means of connecting with people! Hmm….
She IS an intellectual.
With a wicked sense of humour.
Behold:
[Oh and T - why are you hiding from Satyamvada`s conscience? ]
She’s not trying to ingratiate herself with anyone, mind you! Never!
#37 Posted by amrita on April 8, 2005 12:26:23 am
Re: # 36
all right - if you want my attention sooooo badly...... hello ajeya(or should i say satyamvada?), its good to read your deep thoughts. thank you for your compliment undeserved though it is, but you really shouldnt try sarcasm when you`re so bad at it.
all right - if you want my attention sooooo badly...... hello ajeya(or should i say satyamvada?), its good to read your deep thoughts. thank you for your compliment undeserved though it is, but you really shouldnt try sarcasm when you`re so bad at it.
#38 Posted by catfischblues on April 8, 2005 3:00:43 am
For all this talk of doing something about the Hadood Ordinance, here: sighn this petition, its a step somewhere:
http://www.petitiononline.com/WFH1/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/WFH1/petition.html
#39 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 5:36:50 am
Sajal,
There is certain misunderstanding on your part that must be clarified.
Rape does not fall into the category of Hadud crimes, period; regardless of who rapes who. Hadud (s. Hadd) crimes: is a set of eight crimes which along with their punishments are defined in the Qura`n and/or specified explicitly in the Hadith. The eight Hadud crimes and their punishments are: (i) Stoning to death (rajm) for adultery (zina); (ii) one hundred lashes for fornication; (iii) eighty lashes for slandering a chaste woman i.e., accusing her of adultery or fornication; (iv) death for apostatizing from Islam (irtida`d); (v) eighty lashes for drinking wine (shurb); (vi) cutting off the right hand for theft; (vii) cutting off of one foot and one hand for highway robbery; and (viii) death for robbery accompanied by murder.
There are only two situations when rape becomes a hadud crime and thus the punishment imparted is as prescribed by the hadud:
1. The rapist voluntarily confesses to have committed the rape; in this case he is punished with the hadd as prescribed in (i) & (ii) depending on the fact whether the perp is married or single.
2. The second situation is when four adult male witnesses of sound character and mind have seen the act of penetration with their own eyes, somehow. In this case (i) and (ii) punishements are applied depending on the fact whether the perp was married or single.
Rape is one of the most horrenduous and inhuman crimes but at the same time it is one that is most difficult to prove as well. The recent case of Kobe Bryant, makes an interesting study. There are hundereds of cases of rape in US where accused have been rotting in jail for 20+ years and only DNA testing exhenorated them. So the question is what went wrong with their conviction in the first place? This is the reason a Hadd is not imposed in cases of rape. Islamic jurisprudence accepts the forensic evidence but even in that case Hadd cannot be applied. Pregnancy may be used to prove a rape but even in this case hadd cannot be applied.
The misuse of Hadud laws (in sex realated crimes) in Paksitan is because of the following reasons. Let us just take the case of rape. The act of rape has essentially two components to it:
a. sexual intercourse
b. absence of consent of one of the parties.
In Pakistan, when a woman files a case of rape, the police is the first state apparatus that is approcahed by the plaintiff. Police views, investigates and registers the case keeping in mind the elements a and b as related above. The evidence for element `a` is usually forensic i.e. thru medical examination and also the circumstantial. Witnesses are prepared to support evidence. In the next step, in courts, the plaintiff and her attorney tries to prove the element `b`, (even if element a has been proven without a shadow of doubt) thru the testimony of rape victim and examination of evidence and witnesses; whereas the defence (accused) tries to disprove that. A judge gives its verdict on the basis of these argument.
Now suppose that the victim fails to prove her case. The accused goes free; however, now police files a case against victim on two charges:
1. Slander
2. Victim`s own statement when she was filing the charges is used as a confession that element a (i.e. sexual congress) did take place.
In either case women is then subjected to (i), (ii), & (iii) haduds as described above.
The reason for this inhuman and draconian practice is that, Zia sahib imposed the hadud laws through an ordinance. In Pakistan, whenever, a criminal law is enacted by a state authority ( by a dictator or by the parliament) it is referred to the Ministry of Law, who writes that or makes the necessary ammendments in the CrPC - Criminal Procedure Code. CrPC then becomes a part of Police Manual and aslo judge`s instructions as to how a certain crime should be investigated and prosecuted-what cases are exempt or not etc.. In Pakistan, with hadud laws, this process abruptly ended as Zia was killed in the Mango City. The subsequesnt Benazir and NS governments neither had the political will to restart the CrPC process nor the authority and mandate to repeal the hadud laws. The current dictator is no different. It is a political hot potato he wouldn`t even dare touch. He knows that his system will collapse with in half an hour of his departure from the power so why touch such politically sensitive issues.
In Islamic law, as the CrPC should be written, a woman who cannot prove her case successfully cannot be charged with slander or confession of a sexual congress. Her testimony cannot be used to implicate her. But human beings, especially, women are suffering because of the dictators and impotent leaders who wouldn`t even give a rats patoot to the suffering of the people. Together we have created a society that thrives on injustice and oppression of the weak. There is no one else but us to blame for we have chosen the compliance and submission over daring to stand up for truth and justice.
More than half of the women that are rotting in Pakistani jails under hadud laws are those who has been accused by their husbands of adultery. The current loophole in the CrPC and lack of legislation allows police to interfere in such cases and arrest women unless they are willing to pay thru one way or the other.
Zia enacted the so called ``Islamic Laws`` for absolute reasons of expedience only. And that is because his foreign masters told him to do so. As everyone knows it should be viewed in the perspective of ``Afghan Jihad`` that good General was fighting for his masters. To his peoplehe had to prove that he was man of faith, and leader of Muslims, so that he could get more recruits for his masters. He took half-assed, half-hearted measures to Islamize the country based on the recommendations of his illiterate, badmash, and corrupt military legal advisors as they saw fit. None of these a/holes ever saw the face of a madrassa and none was educated in Islamic jurisprudence.
The actual Islamic Law, as it has been in practice for centuries, however, stipulates that when a spouse accuses other of adultery, the case is non-cognizable, which means that police cannot interfere in the matter. The matter directly goes to the civil court. The judge in the civil court first tries to reconcile the estranged couple by appointing arbiters from each family but when the matter cannot be resolved then he initiates the process of Lia`an. In Lia`an, the judge first asks accuser to decalre under oath that he is telling the truth about his or her spouse`s infidelity and if he is telling a lie then may Allah`s curse be upon him/her. The accuser has to take this oath verbally three times on Qura`n. Then judge repeats the same procedure with accused where he or she declares under oath that his accuser is telling a lie and if not then may Allah`s curse be upon him/her. After this oath, the judge declares the marriage annuled.
It is just as simple as that but innocent human beings are suffering because our rulers have disenfranchised us. The main blame goes to the so-called religious parties who remain silent at these attrocities because it is politically more pragmatic. It is these fat bellied a/holes, and impotence of these satans in beards who have caused so much pain to us. It is their complacency, and hunger for power that should be blamed.
#41 Posted by hamidm2 on April 8, 2005 6:55:34 am
justice in the hands of barbarians ..............
................. while some of us revolted by the very concept of capital (and corporal) punishment, the blood-thirsty mullahs are calling for more barbaric and entertaining forms of punishment:
(i) Stoning to death (rajm) for adultery (zina); (ii) one hundred lashes for fornication; (iii) eighty lashes for slandering a chaste woman i.e., accusing her of adultery or fornication; (iv) death for apostatizing from Islam (irtida`d); (v) eighty lashes for drinking wine (shurb); (vi) cutting off the right hand for theft; (vii) cutting off of one foot and one hand for highway robbery; and (viii) death for robbery accompanied by murder.
................. while some of us revolted by the very concept of capital (and corporal) punishment, the blood-thirsty mullahs are calling for more barbaric and entertaining forms of punishment:
(i) Stoning to death (rajm) for adultery (zina); (ii) one hundred lashes for fornication; (iii) eighty lashes for slandering a chaste woman i.e., accusing her of adultery or fornication; (iv) death for apostatizing from Islam (irtida`d); (v) eighty lashes for drinking wine (shurb); (vi) cutting off the right hand for theft; (vii) cutting off of one foot and one hand for highway robbery; and (viii) death for robbery accompanied by murder.
#42 Posted by Faruk on April 8, 2005 7:23:20 am
Sajal
A really well written article. …
Regards,
Faruk
A really well written article. …
Regards,
Faruk
#43 Posted by Faruk on April 8, 2005 7:32:11 am
Re: hamdim2 # 41
In my opinion the problem is not just the nutty mullas. I am told they are a small fraction of Pakistani society. Its their nuisance value that is troubling. Pakistani society has to find its equivalent of Atartuk’s ship.
Regards,
Faruk
In my opinion the problem is not just the nutty mullas. I am told they are a small fraction of Pakistani society. Its their nuisance value that is troubling. Pakistani society has to find its equivalent of Atartuk’s ship.
Regards,
Faruk
#44 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 7:40:33 am
Re: # 41 hamidm
I think, an equally valid question then arises is that why punish anyone at all? What makes an arbitrarily chosen punishment more valid than a divinely sanctioned one. Please don`t tell me that each rapist and a murderer spends a little bit of time with himself thinking about the human rights implications of his actions and the traumatic effects on the victims before committing his crimes, therefore, we must too. Is this your line of argument?
I think, an equally valid question then arises is that why punish anyone at all? What makes an arbitrarily chosen punishment more valid than a divinely sanctioned one. Please don`t tell me that each rapist and a murderer spends a little bit of time with himself thinking about the human rights implications of his actions and the traumatic effects on the victims before committing his crimes, therefore, we must too. Is this your line of argument?
#45 Posted by arjun_m on April 8, 2005 7:45:16 am
#39 by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 5:36am PT
The act of rape has essentially two components to it:
a. sexual intercourse
b. absence of consent of one of the parties.
Now we have two captains on chowk...captain clueless and captain obvious....
The act of rape has essentially two components to it:
a. sexual intercourse
b. absence of consent of one of the parties.
Now we have two captains on chowk...captain clueless and captain obvious....
#46 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 7:58:47 am
Re: # 45
Common sense makes law and vice versa. It is just as simple as that.
Common sense makes law and vice versa. It is just as simple as that.
#47 Posted by hamidm2 on April 8, 2005 10:47:20 am
Re: # 44
urstruly
......... but we don`t have to stoop to the level of the murderer and rapist - hopefully we are better than that ........
urstruly
......... but we don`t have to stoop to the level of the murderer and rapist - hopefully we are better than that ........
#48 Posted by satyamvada on April 8, 2005 10:48:18 am
Arjun,
Temporal is Captain Devious,
because he pretends to be `oh so liberal` then indulges in equivalencies
and justifications.
#49 Posted by hamidm2 on April 8, 2005 10:56:32 am
Re: # 43
faruk,
........... the nutty mullahs might be a small minority, but the real culprits are the silent majority (specially women) who will not stand up and challenge this extremist ideology because they are afraid - afraid of being labelled apostates, heretics and infidels ........
faruk,
........... the nutty mullahs might be a small minority, but the real culprits are the silent majority (specially women) who will not stand up and challenge this extremist ideology because they are afraid - afraid of being labelled apostates, heretics and infidels ........
#50 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 11:18:20 am
Re: # 47 hamidm
who determines that from which point below we will stoop to the level of murderer or a rapist? Is there a criteria for this judgement or is it just arbitrary.
But in fact I know where you are comming from. In Western societies the core value system is based on ``individuality`` of the individual. So if a crime is committed by certain induividual then that crime is particular to that individual only and that victim only. The value system thus opts for a ``customized`` approach to deal with a perpetrator. So more empahsis is on ``reform`` of that particular individual than the prevention of the crime altogether. Ideolgically, on paper this sounds great but practically, it does not work, for example, despite the crimes of few black people the whole black race is considered violenet and criminal. The point is that we try to be as individualistic as possible but we can`t, because human being is a social animal, it is not a tree that can survive individually by itself.
On the othr hand Islamic system of justice has ``Prevention`` as its basic objective when it imparts justice. The punishment delivered to an individual is thus for the betterment of whole society and not for that individual alone.
Lets compare two societies. On one hand is Saudi Arabia, which is rich and stable and have Islamic laws on its roaster-it has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. And on the same side there was Afghanistan of Taliban, violently unstable and poor but crime rate was down to nill. On the other hand we can compare them to the Scandenevian societies -rich and stable, with crime rates as low that of former two. The system of social justice brings the crime down. But in the later, even if violence agaisnt each other is almost nill, the society has failed to maintain its integrity. The basic unit of society -the home - has broken down to the level that if they do not import foreigners into the country they would become extinct probably in half a century. On the other hand Islam`s main objective is to preserve the basic family unit intact. Some of the main crimes in the Hadood category are those which are the prime cause of the cancer that causes a family unit to collapse. Hence such harsh deterrence.
who determines that from which point below we will stoop to the level of murderer or a rapist? Is there a criteria for this judgement or is it just arbitrary.
But in fact I know where you are comming from. In Western societies the core value system is based on ``individuality`` of the individual. So if a crime is committed by certain induividual then that crime is particular to that individual only and that victim only. The value system thus opts for a ``customized`` approach to deal with a perpetrator. So more empahsis is on ``reform`` of that particular individual than the prevention of the crime altogether. Ideolgically, on paper this sounds great but practically, it does not work, for example, despite the crimes of few black people the whole black race is considered violenet and criminal. The point is that we try to be as individualistic as possible but we can`t, because human being is a social animal, it is not a tree that can survive individually by itself.
On the othr hand Islamic system of justice has ``Prevention`` as its basic objective when it imparts justice. The punishment delivered to an individual is thus for the betterment of whole society and not for that individual alone.
Lets compare two societies. On one hand is Saudi Arabia, which is rich and stable and have Islamic laws on its roaster-it has one of the lowest crime rates in the world. And on the same side there was Afghanistan of Taliban, violently unstable and poor but crime rate was down to nill. On the other hand we can compare them to the Scandenevian societies -rich and stable, with crime rates as low that of former two. The system of social justice brings the crime down. But in the later, even if violence agaisnt each other is almost nill, the society has failed to maintain its integrity. The basic unit of society -the home - has broken down to the level that if they do not import foreigners into the country they would become extinct probably in half a century. On the other hand Islam`s main objective is to preserve the basic family unit intact. Some of the main crimes in the Hadood category are those which are the prime cause of the cancer that causes a family unit to collapse. Hence such harsh deterrence.
#51 Posted by hamidm2 on April 8, 2005 11:41:27 am
Re: # 50
urstruly,
........... i have had these arguments with evangelical christians many times - they are no different from our rabid mullahs when it comes to these matters except that they are not suiciders or homiciders like their moslem counterparts (yet) ..........
urstruly,
........... i have had these arguments with evangelical christians many times - they are no different from our rabid mullahs when it comes to these matters except that they are not suiciders or homiciders like their moslem counterparts (yet) ..........
#52 Posted by amrita on April 8, 2005 11:50:36 am
Re: # 51
how about abortion clinics? and didnt one of those little old ladies write the best pamphalet ever on how to build a bomb at home, step by step, and how to set it off in the clinic when it would do most damage?
[or is that an urban legend?]
how about abortion clinics? and didnt one of those little old ladies write the best pamphalet ever on how to build a bomb at home, step by step, and how to set it off in the clinic when it would do most damage?
[or is that an urban legend?]
#53 Posted by ntsyed on April 8, 2005 11:57:08 am
re: #19
Pseudo Joe Hate,
**my prophet muhammad (saw) was a human being...not an infallible angel...maybe we read different qur`ans...maybe we believe in different Allahs...naoozobillah!**
help me with the 2 + 2 my enlightened pseudo gora sarkar:
1. If you believe in Allah, then you must believe in everything He says: T or F
2. If you believe in everything He says, you must believe in the Quran: T or F
3. If the previous 2 are (T), then you must believe in Jibraeel (as)`s infallibility: T or F
4. If you`ve read the Quran, then you must have read that Allah assures us therein that Jibraeel (as) conveyed everything to the Prophet (pbuh) unaltered: T or F
5. Also, you must have read that Allah vouches for the Prophet (pbuh)`s honesty & trustworthiness in the Quran as well: T or F
6. Allah, Quran, and Jibraeel (as): all being true, Allah wouldn`t need to send His message through His trusted Jibraeel to an man who would mess it up: T or F
Do you really believe (m`az Allah) Allah he will commit such a blunder to send such a pristine book full of divine message to a man who could alter it?
Hello? Is anything echoing in the upper chamber or is it filled with dark pungent fumes?
What kind of faith do you have in Allah if you believe and disbelieve Him so selectively?
Study Quran... don`t just read its arabic and translation. Read the tafseer also, because all of our common sense combined cannot fathom the true message without authentic ahadith.
And please refrain from Sattar like stupid psychobabble on which he had to keep backtracking post after post without admitting his misconceptions.
I pray for the health of your iman.
Pseudo Joe Hate,
**my prophet muhammad (saw) was a human being...not an infallible angel...maybe we read different qur`ans...maybe we believe in different Allahs...naoozobillah!**
help me with the 2 + 2 my enlightened pseudo gora sarkar:
1. If you believe in Allah, then you must believe in everything He says: T or F
2. If you believe in everything He says, you must believe in the Quran: T or F
3. If the previous 2 are (T), then you must believe in Jibraeel (as)`s infallibility: T or F
4. If you`ve read the Quran, then you must have read that Allah assures us therein that Jibraeel (as) conveyed everything to the Prophet (pbuh) unaltered: T or F
5. Also, you must have read that Allah vouches for the Prophet (pbuh)`s honesty & trustworthiness in the Quran as well: T or F
6. Allah, Quran, and Jibraeel (as): all being true, Allah wouldn`t need to send His message through His trusted Jibraeel to an man who would mess it up: T or F
Do you really believe (m`az Allah) Allah he will commit such a blunder to send such a pristine book full of divine message to a man who could alter it?
Hello? Is anything echoing in the upper chamber or is it filled with dark pungent fumes?
What kind of faith do you have in Allah if you believe and disbelieve Him so selectively?
Study Quran... don`t just read its arabic and translation. Read the tafseer also, because all of our common sense combined cannot fathom the true message without authentic ahadith.
And please refrain from Sattar like stupid psychobabble on which he had to keep backtracking post after post without admitting his misconceptions.
I pray for the health of your iman.
#54 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 11:57:57 am
Re: # 51
The comparison is unfair. We implement our system of values through constitution and law whereas Christians lost everything about half a millenium ago.
But I know, I know, comparison was not done for being fair anyway, so don`t bother explaining.
The comparison is unfair. We implement our system of values through constitution and law whereas Christians lost everything about half a millenium ago.
But I know, I know, comparison was not done for being fair anyway, so don`t bother explaining.
#55 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 12:10:57 pm
re: hamidm2 # 51
I am always at a loss when I hear that the extremists of Islam/Christianity/Hinduism etc are are a very tiny minority.
So what? Except in a very limited range of situations, since when have sheer numbers become the determinants of any group`s outcomes?
I am always at a loss when I hear that the extremists of Islam/Christianity/Hinduism etc are are a very tiny minority.
So what? Except in a very limited range of situations, since when have sheer numbers become the determinants of any group`s outcomes?
#56 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 8, 2005 12:17:05 pm
to all abdul-hates,
as per your philosophy of prevention, i have a better plan. why not we put everybody behind in the cages and only let the revered mullahs manage the keys. each man will be assigned a mullah as his guardian. the cages would be openned in the morning when our citizon will be taken to another cage, his workplace. then in the evening, his guardian mullah would bring them back to the home cage.
disallow everything because everything creates problems. this is the only way we will eradicate all evils from the society.
as per your philosophy of prevention, i have a better plan. why not we put everybody behind in the cages and only let the revered mullahs manage the keys. each man will be assigned a mullah as his guardian. the cages would be openned in the morning when our citizon will be taken to another cage, his workplace. then in the evening, his guardian mullah would bring them back to the home cage.
disallow everything because everything creates problems. this is the only way we will eradicate all evils from the society.
#57 Posted by yagacho on April 8, 2005 12:41:56 pm
i am not a pakistani and was not aware of the hudood ordinance. i do not hold any anti-pakistan feeling, rather i think, pakis are very talented people who achieve a lot outside pakistan.
however, this pakistani law of hudood is garbage and should be thrown out of the legal system. what stupidity is this requirement of four muslim men of good moral character being witness to the crime. this is absurd and complete nonsense. if even one muslim man of good moral is present then rape would NOT take place as that good muslim man is morally bound to stop rape from happening. and then who is a good muslim man? how do we determine the goodness of a muslim and who determines that?
i think pakistani men and women should work towards goal of reform of hudood law and eventual repeal. educated pakis should take a lead in this action and work towards it in a well organized manner. women organizations, human rights orgs, legal orgs should work together to pressure the govt to amend these laws. this issue should be handled as a pakistani issue and not just a woman issue.
however, this pakistani law of hudood is garbage and should be thrown out of the legal system. what stupidity is this requirement of four muslim men of good moral character being witness to the crime. this is absurd and complete nonsense. if even one muslim man of good moral is present then rape would NOT take place as that good muslim man is morally bound to stop rape from happening. and then who is a good muslim man? how do we determine the goodness of a muslim and who determines that?
i think pakistani men and women should work towards goal of reform of hudood law and eventual repeal. educated pakis should take a lead in this action and work towards it in a well organized manner. women organizations, human rights orgs, legal orgs should work together to pressure the govt to amend these laws. this issue should be handled as a pakistani issue and not just a woman issue.
#58 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 12:46:50 pm
re: ntsyed # 53
Certain good people`s religious beliefs are built entirely upon not asking too many questions. The pressures of actual thinking would be extremely unwise, since excercising one`s grey cells would make a person too uncomfortable.
You, at least, have your quran - whether others believe it is the Real Verbatim Word of the ``Ultimate God`` or just an inspired cultural product of its time.
You stand by your beliefs, and run the risk of looking like an absolute fool.
It`s much safer and easier for those who can pretend sainthood: they merely have to `smile a Godly smile,` `nod their heads wisely,` speak deeply of `REAL understanding,` ask others to `keep an open mind`, and if that all those tricks fail, coin names for those who request them to carry out some real ijtihad.
So even though I think you are a raving fool, and a mad man, good luck in getting any specific answers to your questions.
Certain good people`s religious beliefs are built entirely upon not asking too many questions. The pressures of actual thinking would be extremely unwise, since excercising one`s grey cells would make a person too uncomfortable.
You, at least, have your quran - whether others believe it is the Real Verbatim Word of the ``Ultimate God`` or just an inspired cultural product of its time.
You stand by your beliefs, and run the risk of looking like an absolute fool.
It`s much safer and easier for those who can pretend sainthood: they merely have to `smile a Godly smile,` `nod their heads wisely,` speak deeply of `REAL understanding,` ask others to `keep an open mind`, and if that all those tricks fail, coin names for those who request them to carry out some real ijtihad.
So even though I think you are a raving fool, and a mad man, good luck in getting any specific answers to your questions.
#59 Posted by temporal on April 8, 2005 12:47:39 pm
nts#53:
(am in a rush so I will be brief)
this is what I said (emphasis added)
my prophet muhammad (saw) was a human being...not an infallible angel...maybe we read different qur`ans...maybe we believe in different Allahs...naoozobillah!
most of your questions are not relevant here…however re: #6..who said anything about messing the message?... are you really stupid or you feign stupidness? Or are you devious? Or blind to Allah’s truth?...don’t answer…may Allah guide you
i reiterate for you and others to ponder:
my prophet muhammed (saw) was a man…a special man…but a man nevertheless
rgds
t
(am in a rush so I will be brief)
this is what I said (emphasis added)
my prophet muhammad (saw) was a human being...not an infallible angel...maybe we read different qur`ans...maybe we believe in different Allahs...naoozobillah!
most of your questions are not relevant here…however re: #6..who said anything about messing the message?... are you really stupid or you feign stupidness? Or are you devious? Or blind to Allah’s truth?...don’t answer…may Allah guide you
i reiterate for you and others to ponder:
my prophet muhammed (saw) was a man…a special man…but a man nevertheless
rgds
t
#60 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 12:50:36 pm
Re. #53
hamid,
``...... actually i have not seen ms mirza play and have not seen her bosom, but i have heard about it ! ......... but i can assure you that people don`t watch women`s tennis to look at their legs unless they are perverts ...........in any case, there is nothing wrong with noticing or even admiring an attractive member of the opposite sex as long as you don`t stare, make lewd remarks or reach out and touch ............``
Mrs ntsyed wishes to know what/how would you feel and do if you came upon someone talking about mrs hamid or your daughters as you heard about sania?
Furthermore, what could/can/do you do to stop someone if he stared, made lewd comments or reached out and touched at your ladies?
She hopes you still have some red blood running through your veins and arteries... and so do I. Otherwise, we think you`re in the best place you could ever be. Chowk may not be for me, but Pakistan may not be for you anymore, especially me and my ilk succeed in our efforts.
But you never answered, what would you do if the US reinstated military draft and you and your family members (including ladies) were called in? Run up to Canada or down to Mexico? Below Mexico is also becoming mucho caliente para gringos. Canada keeps dissing Uncle Sam more and more on strategic issues like iraq and missile shield... you know that, right?
Let me know if you wish to come to Pak, my mrs will keep some black tents handy for your ladies and I`ll keep some shar`i shalwars and jinnah caps handy for you and your lads. `cause in spite of you, I still like you.
hamid,
``...... actually i have not seen ms mirza play and have not seen her bosom, but i have heard about it ! ......... but i can assure you that people don`t watch women`s tennis to look at their legs unless they are perverts ...........in any case, there is nothing wrong with noticing or even admiring an attractive member of the opposite sex as long as you don`t stare, make lewd remarks or reach out and touch ............``
Mrs ntsyed wishes to know what/how would you feel and do if you came upon someone talking about mrs hamid or your daughters as you heard about sania?
Furthermore, what could/can/do you do to stop someone if he stared, made lewd comments or reached out and touched at your ladies?
She hopes you still have some red blood running through your veins and arteries... and so do I. Otherwise, we think you`re in the best place you could ever be. Chowk may not be for me, but Pakistan may not be for you anymore, especially me and my ilk succeed in our efforts.
But you never answered, what would you do if the US reinstated military draft and you and your family members (including ladies) were called in? Run up to Canada or down to Mexico? Below Mexico is also becoming mucho caliente para gringos. Canada keeps dissing Uncle Sam more and more on strategic issues like iraq and missile shield... you know that, right?
Let me know if you wish to come to Pak, my mrs will keep some black tents handy for your ladies and I`ll keep some shar`i shalwars and jinnah caps handy for you and your lads. `cause in spite of you, I still like you.
#61 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 12:51:36 pm
yagacho
Anti-Pakistan feelings?
You must be joking, right :)
Anti-Pakistan feelings?
You must be joking, right :)
#63 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 1:00:07 pm
Re: # 57
Perhaps you should read my post # 39 again to understand the requirement of four witnesses again. It could be an honest mistake, but unfortunately, your line of reasoning is abundantly used as a great propaganda line which has nothing to do with actuality. So if you are doing it deliberately then it is only you who is doing injustice to himself.
My post started with the sentence ``rape does not fall under the category of hadud laws, period, ..............however, there are two situations when hadud can be applied in the cases of rape........``.
Read my post again. A situation where four male witnesses could be present at the crime (rape) scene is highly improbable but it is not impossible. For example, I know an actual case in Pakistan where highway robbers robbed a bus full of people and herded them outside with Klasnikovs. Among the unfortunate travellers were two sisters who were then gang raped right in front of other travellers. Please explain to me why such animals should not be put through the same pain and suffering they inflicted not only onto those girls, but their parents, siblings, and fellow travellers as well. In this case we have not four but many eye witnesses who saw the act of penetration with their own eyes. Hadd applies here.
Perhaps you should read my post # 39 again to understand the requirement of four witnesses again. It could be an honest mistake, but unfortunately, your line of reasoning is abundantly used as a great propaganda line which has nothing to do with actuality. So if you are doing it deliberately then it is only you who is doing injustice to himself.
My post started with the sentence ``rape does not fall under the category of hadud laws, period, ..............however, there are two situations when hadud can be applied in the cases of rape........``.
Read my post again. A situation where four male witnesses could be present at the crime (rape) scene is highly improbable but it is not impossible. For example, I know an actual case in Pakistan where highway robbers robbed a bus full of people and herded them outside with Klasnikovs. Among the unfortunate travellers were two sisters who were then gang raped right in front of other travellers. Please explain to me why such animals should not be put through the same pain and suffering they inflicted not only onto those girls, but their parents, siblings, and fellow travellers as well. In this case we have not four but many eye witnesses who saw the act of penetration with their own eyes. Hadd applies here.
#64 Posted by sajal on April 8, 2005 2:41:11 pm
RE# 63,
URSTRULY,
SO NOW, we should hope that every girl is gangraped infront of a lot of witnesses to have our four male witnesses. otherwise she is not raped . WOW WHAT A LOGIC .
AND BY THE WAY ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO GOT TO WATCH A FREE LIVE SEX SHOW. ARE MORAL CITIZENS?
BECAUSE ACCORDING TO YOU THEY SAW THE ACT OF PENETRATION!!!
THEY COULD NOT CLOSE THEIR EYES? OR WERE THEY TOLD YOU WILL BE RAPED TOO IF YOU DID NOT WITNESS THE ACTUAL PENETRATION. AND BELIEVE ME IF THESE RAPISTS WERE AFRIAD OF CONSEQUENCES THAY WOULD NOT HAVE RAPED THESE GIRLS INFRONT OF SO MANY POTENTIAL WITNESSES. BECOZ THEY KNOW U WANT 4 WITNESSES AND WHO WILL TESTIFY?
IF THESE PEOPLE CANT STAND UP FOR THESE GIRLS THEN WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE THEY WILL STAND UP AND PROVIDE WITNESS TESTIMONY?
RE#39
URSTRULY
SO ACCORDING TO YOU UNLESS THERE ARE FOUR WITNESSES IT IS NOT A HADD CRIME AND EVEN THOUGH FORCED PENETRATION OCCURED!! WOW !! NOW THIS IS SICK TWISTED PERVERSON WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. A RAPE HAS OCCURED AND AS SOON AS THE WOMAN YELLS RAPE AND CANT PROVE IT SHE IS PUT IN JAIL FOR ZINA!!! THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG!
YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS FLAWED MY FRIEND!!! NOT MINE...
URSTRULY,
SO NOW, we should hope that every girl is gangraped infront of a lot of witnesses to have our four male witnesses. otherwise she is not raped . WOW WHAT A LOGIC .
AND BY THE WAY ALL THESE PEOPLE WHO GOT TO WATCH A FREE LIVE SEX SHOW. ARE MORAL CITIZENS?
BECAUSE ACCORDING TO YOU THEY SAW THE ACT OF PENETRATION!!!
THEY COULD NOT CLOSE THEIR EYES? OR WERE THEY TOLD YOU WILL BE RAPED TOO IF YOU DID NOT WITNESS THE ACTUAL PENETRATION. AND BELIEVE ME IF THESE RAPISTS WERE AFRIAD OF CONSEQUENCES THAY WOULD NOT HAVE RAPED THESE GIRLS INFRONT OF SO MANY POTENTIAL WITNESSES. BECOZ THEY KNOW U WANT 4 WITNESSES AND WHO WILL TESTIFY?
IF THESE PEOPLE CANT STAND UP FOR THESE GIRLS THEN WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE THEY WILL STAND UP AND PROVIDE WITNESS TESTIMONY?
RE#39
URSTRULY
SO ACCORDING TO YOU UNLESS THERE ARE FOUR WITNESSES IT IS NOT A HADD CRIME AND EVEN THOUGH FORCED PENETRATION OCCURED!! WOW !! NOW THIS IS SICK TWISTED PERVERSON WE ARE TALKING ABOUT. A RAPE HAS OCCURED AND AS SOON AS THE WOMAN YELLS RAPE AND CANT PROVE IT SHE IS PUT IN JAIL FOR ZINA!!! THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG!
YOUR UNDERSTANDING IS FLAWED MY FRIEND!!! NOT MINE...
#65 Posted by KaalChakra on April 8, 2005 2:58:20 pm
ntsyed saheb
One is envious of your good luck. You managed to get more of your questions straightforwardly answered in # 59 than I ever could.
All you are left to do is to ponder.
One is envious of your good luck. You managed to get more of your questions straightforwardly answered in # 59 than I ever could.
All you are left to do is to ponder.
#66 Posted by hamidm2 on April 8, 2005 3:00:03 pm
Re: # 55
kaalchakra,
.......... you are right - the destructive power of the lunatic fringe in every religion far exceeds its numbers because, when it comes to matters of faith, the so-called moderate majority defers to the lunatic fringe ......... it is particularly true in islam which blurs the line between personal faith, law, politics and everything else - this plays into the hands of the rabid mullahs who claim they are only enforcing al-lah`s will .........
kaalchakra,
.......... you are right - the destructive power of the lunatic fringe in every religion far exceeds its numbers because, when it comes to matters of faith, the so-called moderate majority defers to the lunatic fringe ......... it is particularly true in islam which blurs the line between personal faith, law, politics and everything else - this plays into the hands of the rabid mullahs who claim they are only enforcing al-lah`s will .........
#67 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 8, 2005 4:48:34 pm
Re: # 63 URSTRULY,
Will hadd not apply if the bus was a women college trip going to mangla dam and the only men onboard were a driver, an assitant driver and an assistant to the assistant driver. Will there be no hadd if some 30 women see two of them gang raped in addition to those three men?
you mean women are near to nothing? what do you really mean?
okay, if hadd is not about rape, what does the shariyah has to say about rape`s law? don`t tell me that there was no rape in the times of prophet mo (peace be upon me).
Will hadd not apply if the bus was a women college trip going to mangla dam and the only men onboard were a driver, an assitant driver and an assistant to the assistant driver. Will there be no hadd if some 30 women see two of them gang raped in addition to those three men?
you mean women are near to nothing? what do you really mean?
okay, if hadd is not about rape, what does the shariyah has to say about rape`s law? don`t tell me that there was no rape in the times of prophet mo (peace be upon me).
#68 Posted by rahul_capri on April 8, 2005 6:06:43 pm
Re: # 53
ntsyed sahib,
1. If you believe in Allah, then you must believe in everything He says.
Why?
ntsyed sahib,
1. If you believe in Allah, then you must believe in everything He says.
Why?
#69 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 8, 2005 6:56:57 pm
kaalchakra,
abdul-hatism is a contagious. its a very slow poison. its major cause is the moral advantage of the abdul-hates over normals. it flourishes under political corruption and economic backwardness. you live your life in pakistan wiritng posts on chowk condemning abdul-hates but you will find out that your own sons will turn into abdul-hates. blunt attempts of the general will only make abdul-hatism stronger.
abdul-hatism is a contagious. its a very slow poison. its major cause is the moral advantage of the abdul-hates over normals. it flourishes under political corruption and economic backwardness. you live your life in pakistan wiritng posts on chowk condemning abdul-hates but you will find out that your own sons will turn into abdul-hates. blunt attempts of the general will only make abdul-hatism stronger.
#70 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 7:40:29 pm
Re: # 64 sajal
Please calm down and think logically. The basic premise of your post is wrong when you start with the opening sentence ``SO NOW, we should hope that every girl is gangraped infront of a lot of witnesses to have our four male witnesses. otherwise she is not raped . `` Please read my post number 39 and try to figure out why your premise is wrong. You are a student of law, in the law jargon such a statement is called a ``circular logic``; in this logic the presenter presents a statement as truth and then itis followed by a statement that contradicts itself. Lawyers and judges are are trained to detect, avoid and examine such things. A classical example is the ststement ``If God is all powerful and absolute then can he make stone which even He cannot lift``. Sajal you can do better than that.
malik# 67
Oh now you are supporting Hadud punishment and trying to figure out ways, as to how to subject as many people to it?
Anyway, let us assume that your inquiry is based on the spirit of enquiry and debate, then a short answer to your question is that; the minimum standard of witness for subjecting the culprits to hadd punishment of ``stonning to death`` or ``100 leashes in public place`` is four adult males of sound character or three adult males and two adult female witnesses. If this standard is not met the hadd punishment cannot be imposed. In that case the rapists are convicted for rape and subjected to Ta`azir punishment. Ta`azir punishment is an arbitrary punishment chosen by the society and in principle it is less sever than hadd for rape. For example if a rapist is single he can be beaten with 99 leashes ( any number fewer than 100 leashes); fined and incarcerated at the same time or a combination thereof. In case rapist is married he may be subjected to the above combination but may be punished even severer but he cannot be given a death penalty thru stonning. Hadd applies only when two conditions in my post#39 are met.
Please calm down and think logically. The basic premise of your post is wrong when you start with the opening sentence ``SO NOW, we should hope that every girl is gangraped infront of a lot of witnesses to have our four male witnesses. otherwise she is not raped . `` Please read my post number 39 and try to figure out why your premise is wrong. You are a student of law, in the law jargon such a statement is called a ``circular logic``; in this logic the presenter presents a statement as truth and then itis followed by a statement that contradicts itself. Lawyers and judges are are trained to detect, avoid and examine such things. A classical example is the ststement ``If God is all powerful and absolute then can he make stone which even He cannot lift``. Sajal you can do better than that.
malik# 67
Oh now you are supporting Hadud punishment and trying to figure out ways, as to how to subject as many people to it?
Anyway, let us assume that your inquiry is based on the spirit of enquiry and debate, then a short answer to your question is that; the minimum standard of witness for subjecting the culprits to hadd punishment of ``stonning to death`` or ``100 leashes in public place`` is four adult males of sound character or three adult males and two adult female witnesses. If this standard is not met the hadd punishment cannot be imposed. In that case the rapists are convicted for rape and subjected to Ta`azir punishment. Ta`azir punishment is an arbitrary punishment chosen by the society and in principle it is less sever than hadd for rape. For example if a rapist is single he can be beaten with 99 leashes ( any number fewer than 100 leashes); fined and incarcerated at the same time or a combination thereof. In case rapist is married he may be subjected to the above combination but may be punished even severer but he cannot be given a death penalty thru stonning. Hadd applies only when two conditions in my post#39 are met.
#71 Posted by Urstruly on April 8, 2005 7:46:58 pm
Re: # 70 Further to my #70
As a matter of heavy fine+corporal punishment+incarceration AND EXILE for certain period of time are prescribed under jusriprudence in standard for hudd is not applicable.
As a matter of heavy fine+corporal punishment+incarceration AND EXILE for certain period of time are prescribed under jusriprudence in standard for hudd is not applicable.
#72 Posted by ZahraJ on April 8, 2005 8:21:35 pm
Re: # 63
Were the culprits penalized? Did they receive 99 or whatever number of lashes you are referring to? By the way, who penalized the culprits? Which decade was that?
If the culprits were not penalized then please do not quote rubbish on things that are not in practice and have been hammered to death in some legal thesis somewhere to make a mockery out of human life!
Your posts are damn annoying!
Were the culprits penalized? Did they receive 99 or whatever number of lashes you are referring to? By the way, who penalized the culprits? Which decade was that?
If the culprits were not penalized then please do not quote rubbish on things that are not in practice and have been hammered to death in some legal thesis somewhere to make a mockery out of human life!
Your posts are damn annoying!
#73 Posted by rahul_capri on April 8, 2005 8:24:04 pm
Re: # 70
urstruly,
The hadud cannot apply to a rapist who was not seen by four witnesses and taazir would be applied to them.In the above case, can hadud be applied against the woman for adultery? What are the requirement of witnesses for that? Would that be contingent on the decision of the court case for rape?
urstruly,
The hadud cannot apply to a rapist who was not seen by four witnesses and taazir would be applied to them.In the above case, can hadud be applied against the woman for adultery? What are the requirement of witnesses for that? Would that be contingent on the decision of the court case for rape?
#74 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 8, 2005 9:43:28 pm
let`s suppose the following 2 scinarios:
1:
a man and a woman commit adultary and three men see them.
some days go by and they do it again and the same three men see them again.
they see them doing the sin yet another time.
2:
another pair of a man and a woman commit adultary for the first time but to their bad luck, four people see them. they are stonned to death.
i ask, where is justice ?
1:
a man and a woman commit adultary and three men see them.
some days go by and they do it again and the same three men see them again.
they see them doing the sin yet another time.
2:
another pair of a man and a woman commit adultary for the first time but to their bad luck, four people see them. they are stonned to death.
i ask, where is justice ?
#75 Posted by Romair on April 8, 2005 10:23:32 pm
If today Hadood laws were removed, nothing much would happen. Maulvi brigade would make some noise, and that would be it. Maulvi brigade made a lot of noise, when Friday was removed as a holiday, and nothing happened.
It will be much more difficult to remove things like honor killings through panchayat. Because those are overseen by the landed political leadership (nearly all of who are secular (or non-theocratic)). They have real economic control over the people.
People are far too scared of the maulvi brigade. In addition, there is no real opposition to them, with any kind of credibility. There is no true urban national middle-class party in Pakistan. I though PTI would turn into one. But it never became popular.
This is, however, the best time to get things like Hadood Ordinances removed. Musharraf`s govt. has been more pro-women than any since Ayub Khan. Someone needs to give the political push, however. Perhaps the women, who are in large numbers in the legislature now, could do the trick.
If the push is not given now, then when the real political govts. do take over, it will be very difficult. Because they are generally discredited amongst the populace and are, thus, quite afraid of the maulvi brigade`s street power. If someone like MQM could spread nationally, it could take on the maulvi brigade.
In any case, it will be the women, themselves, who will have to demand and literally rip these rights away for themselves. As long as the women`s seats in the local and federal assemblies are maintained, I think it might happen.................
It will be much more difficult to remove things like honor killings through panchayat. Because those are overseen by the landed political leadership (nearly all of who are secular (or non-theocratic)). They have real economic control over the people.
People are far too scared of the maulvi brigade. In addition, there is no real opposition to them, with any kind of credibility. There is no true urban national middle-class party in Pakistan. I though PTI would turn into one. But it never became popular.
This is, however, the best time to get things like Hadood Ordinances removed. Musharraf`s govt. has been more pro-women than any since Ayub Khan. Someone needs to give the political push, however. Perhaps the women, who are in large numbers in the legislature now, could do the trick.
If the push is not given now, then when the real political govts. do take over, it will be very difficult. Because they are generally discredited amongst the populace and are, thus, quite afraid of the maulvi brigade`s street power. If someone like MQM could spread nationally, it could take on the maulvi brigade.
In any case, it will be the women, themselves, who will have to demand and literally rip these rights away for themselves. As long as the women`s seats in the local and federal assemblies are maintained, I think it might happen.................
#76 Posted by Romair on April 8, 2005 10:29:13 pm
Urstruly #various: Can you point out where in the Quran, the various, Hadd punishments are adjudicated?
#77 Posted by ferozk on April 8, 2005 10:32:36 pm
re: Urstruly
Urstruly, I have a few questions you.
Please state what is the actual status accorded to women in Islam and under Islamic law.
You and I have interacted over many issues over a long period of time on Chowk. You are aware of my position on the issue of Sharia and Islam in Pakistan. It is with this in mind, that I have to ask you a straightforward question.
Are you confident that if Sharia law is implemented in Pakistan, it will be truly an Islamic law?
My own fear is that Sharia will not be implented in Pakistan in an Islamic sense, because religion is periodically twisted for political ends in Pakistan. Therefore, any theocractic law and in its imposition in Pakistan risks a political interpretation and given the levels of acute intolerances prevailing in Pakistani society, such a law will only help in solidfying moral autuocracy of a vocal minority. Pakistan is not homgeneous society in a religious sense, because it contains both sunni and shia Muslims, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs and Parsis. In a religious sense, Pakistan is pluralistic society and no one religious law can be imposed fairly, unless Pakistan hopes to achieve a dictatorship of the majority through a religous decree.
A good law reflects justice, because it is based on the values of common sense grounded in the imperfections of the society, which it tries to clarify by being fair to all concerned parties. A theocratic law will not gurantee this idea and it will, by its very nature, seek to tilt the playing field unevenly in favor of one group over another. This would create injustice, because all the religions in Pakistan will be judged on the basis of the morality of one religion.
This then raises the issue of who is going to decide the morality of the dominant religion in Pakistan?
The nightmarish concern in Pakistan is that its clergy is woefully ignorant of religion and what they preach as a religion is nothing more than a highly skewed form of culturalism. Given the lack of religious education and understanding within the clergy of Pakistan itself about Islam and its teachings, a theocracatic law will only create injustice, resentment and resistence towards Islam and in many ways, this will only cause harm to Islam in particular and will bring no good to Pakistan in general.
Urstruly, the real problem in implementing Islamic Sharia law in Pakistan is not the Pakistani society, but it is the clergy itself which is confused on the issue of what is Islam!
Ciao
Urstruly, I have a few questions you.
Please state what is the actual status accorded to women in Islam and under Islamic law.
You and I have interacted over many issues over a long period of time on Chowk. You are aware of my position on the issue of Sharia and Islam in Pakistan. It is with this in mind, that I have to ask you a straightforward question.
Are you confident that if Sharia law is implemented in Pakistan, it will be truly an Islamic law?
My own fear is that Sharia will not be implented in Pakistan in an Islamic sense, because religion is periodically twisted for political ends in Pakistan. Therefore, any theocractic law and in its imposition in Pakistan risks a political interpretation and given the levels of acute intolerances prevailing in Pakistani society, such a law will only help in solidfying moral autuocracy of a vocal minority. Pakistan is not homgeneous society in a religious sense, because it contains both sunni and shia Muslims, Christians, Hindus and Sikhs and Parsis. In a religious sense, Pakistan is pluralistic society and no one religious law can be imposed fairly, unless Pakistan hopes to achieve a dictatorship of the majority through a religous decree.
A good law reflects justice, because it is based on the values of common sense grounded in the imperfections of the society, which it tries to clarify by being fair to all concerned parties. A theocratic law will not gurantee this idea and it will, by its very nature, seek to tilt the playing field unevenly in favor of one group over another. This would create injustice, because all the religions in Pakistan will be judged on the basis of the morality of one religion.
This then raises the issue of who is going to decide the morality of the dominant religion in Pakistan?
The nightmarish concern in Pakistan is that its clergy is woefully ignorant of religion and what they preach as a religion is nothing more than a highly skewed form of culturalism. Given the lack of religious education and understanding within the clergy of Pakistan itself about Islam and its teachings, a theocracatic law will only create injustice, resentment and resistence towards Islam and in many ways, this will only cause harm to Islam in particular and will bring no good to Pakistan in general.
Urstruly, the real problem in implementing Islamic Sharia law in Pakistan is not the Pakistani society, but it is the clergy itself which is confused on the issue of what is Islam!
Ciao
#78 Posted by malikjahanzeb on April 9, 2005 12:39:02 am
I condemn temporals, romairs and ferozks for knowing the right thing in their subconcious but not taking the extra mile because it requires a lot of courage. these optimists are seekers of reconsiliation with the very thing which is the root of all the problems. yes, i am talking about the flawed concept of religion.
if you think if stars, you will get stars but if you think of an apple on a tree, well you will get an apple.
if you think if stars, you will get stars but if you think of an apple on a tree, well you will get an apple.
#79 Posted by ntsyed on April 9, 2005 1:23:23 am
Re: #39
Urstruly,
Salute to you sir... Alhumdulillah He has belssed you with very valuable knowledge; may He add to it for our benefit and yours, ameen. Needless to say, I thoroughly enjoy your posts.
However, I wish to offer a correction to the following:
**In Lia`an, the judge first asks accuser to decalre under oath that he is telling the truth about his or her spouse`s infidelity and if he is telling a lie then may Allah`s curse be upon him/her. The accuser has to take this oath verbally three times on Qura`n. Then judge repeats the same procedure with accused where he or she declares under oath that his accuser is telling a lie and if not then may Allah`s curse be upon him/her.**
According to An-Nur, verses 6-9, both the the accuser and the accused (in case of not-guilty plea) have to testify four times and then fifth testimony should be the invoking of Allah if they lie, thereby confirming their allegation and its rebuttal a total of five (5) times each.
Kindly correct me if I`m wrong!
Jazak-Allah-khair
Urstruly,
Salute to you sir... Alhumdulillah He has belssed you with very valuable knowledge; may He add to it for our benefit and yours, ameen. Needless to say, I thoroughly enjoy your posts.
However, I wish to offer a correction to the following:
**In Lia`an, the judge first asks accuser to decalre under oath that he is telling the truth about his or her spouse`s infidelity and if he is telling a lie then may Allah`s curse be upon him/her. The accuser has to take this oath verbally three times on Qura`n. Then judge repeats the same procedure with accused where he or she declares under oath that his accuser is telling a lie and if not then may Allah`s curse be upon him/her.**
According to An-Nur, verses 6-9, both the the accuser and the accused (in case of not-guilty plea) have to testify four times and then fifth testimony should be the invoking of Allah if they lie, thereby confirming their allegation and its rebuttal a total of five (5) times each.
Kindly correct me if I`m wrong!
Jazak-Allah-khair
#80 Posted by ntsyed on April 9, 2005 1:27:29 am
Re: #56
The idea may be worth trying, but there`s a small problem with it. It leaves out the Pseudo Joe Hates of the world to wreak havoc outside. We must think of something to tame these buggers too.
:-)
The idea may be worth trying, but there`s a small problem with it. It leaves out the Pseudo Joe Hates of the world to wreak havoc outside. We must think of something to tame these buggers too.
:-)
#81 Posted by Corina on April 9, 2005 2:04:00 am
Dear Sajal,
A very well written article. Had a comment for Romair which applies here as well. . .
Rumair: I dont think it is just the responsibility of women to stand up against injustice targeted at women. Those who occupy privileged positions in society are just as responsible as those who arent and in fact occupy more leverage. It is very convenient I am sure to tell your wife if you dont do something about it first I wont either. Finger pointing is childish. I think it needs to be a joint stand - not just women.
Corina
A very well written article. Had a comment for Romair which applies here as well. . .
Rumair: I dont think it is just the responsibility of women to stand up against injustice targeted at women. Those who occupy privileged positions in society are just as responsible as those who arent and in fact occupy more leverage. It is very convenient I am sure to tell your wife if you dont do something about it first I wont either. Finger pointing is childish. I think it needs to be a joint stand - not just women.
Corina
#82 Posted by Corina on April 9, 2005 2:04:14 am
Dear Sajal,
A very well written article. Had a comment for Romair which applies here as well. . .
Rumair: I dont think it is just the responsibility of women to stand up against injustice targeted at women. Those who occupy privileged positions in society are just as responsible as those who arent and in fact occupy more leverage. It is very convenient I am sure to tell your wife if you dont do something about it first I wont either. Finger pointing is childish. I think it needs to be a joint stand - not just women.
Corina
A very well written article. Had a comment for Romair which applies here as well. . .
Rumair: I dont think it is just the responsibility of women to stand up against injustice targeted at women. Those who occupy privileged positions in society are just as responsible as those who arent and in fact occupy more leverage. It is very convenient I am sure to tell your wife if you dont do something about it first I wont either. Finger pointing is childish. I think it needs to be a joint stand - not just women.
Corina
#83 Posted by ntsyed on April 9, 2005 2:22:54 am
re: #58
dear kaalchakra!
I appreciate your sincere advice... actually that`s very kind of you to do so.
**So even though I think you are a raving fool, and a mad man, ..**
In all seriousness... the above coming from you, I`m touched by these honorary titles! That`s how my beloved Prophet (pbuh) and his companions (ra) were treated when they spoke the truth unabashedly. Hopefully, these honors from you and more from others here will get me closer to them on the Day of Judgement and afterwards.
Salaam.
dear kaalchakra!
I appreciate your sincere advice... actually that`s very kind of you to do so.
**So even though I think you are a raving fool, and a mad man, ..**
In all seriousness... the above coming from you, I`m touched by these honorary titles! That`s how my beloved Prophet (pbuh) and his companions (ra) were treated when they spoke the truth unabashedly. Hopefully, these honors from you and more from others here will get me closer to them on the Day of Judgement and afterwards.
Salaam.