Nighat Yasmeen April 10, 2005
#43 Posted by ferozk on April 16, 2005 8:10:23 am
re: BeeJay # 41
BeeJay, I am not being pessimistic. What you refer to as my pessismistic outlook is a simple acceptance of reality as it prevails in Pakistan. To be perfectly honest with you, I have no great expectations that Pakistan will improve in the near foreseeable future.
Education is not a solution in Pakistan, because even the educated people of Pakistan exhibit a sense of behavior, which is not normally accepted or associated from educated people. To make matters worse, education in Pakistan itself fosters a sense of elitism, which assumes that it has the answers for all of the nation`s problems. In fact, it is the educated people of Pakistan, who have consistently favored laws, which have ended up pushing Pakistan to the edge of abyss. It is the utter and sheer disdain and contempt, which the educated people of Pakistan have for their other less educated citizens, which has repeatedly denied democracy in Pakistan. It is a common mindset amongst the educated people of Pakistan that since the majority of the nation is illiterate, the educated people are thus better qualified to decided what is ``good for Pakistan``.
The ``curing powers of education`` is non-existent in Pakistan. BeeJay, education in Pakistan is not about learning and gaining enlightment or knowledge or awareness; it is about mindlessly memorizing a lie and then repeating it as the truth. Pakistani education does not prepare the student for anything, because the curricula is so outmoded and the methodology of instruction so political, that the students often graduate with worthless degrees. The rule of the thumb in Pakistan is that students go to colleges and universities not to get educated but to get degrees, which confer upon them social status of an educated person.
People of Pakistan might stop the downward spirial of events if, as you suggest, they gain an awareness of the issues and the problems, but it will never happen. The people of Pakistan are more interested in denying the truth and if they admit to the truth, it is because it is so painfully bitter that they cannot deny it anymore, they will blame some one else as being responsible for the wrongs in Pakistan but will never hold themselves accountable. There is a total abdication of personal responsibility in Pakistan and this corresponds into a lack of civic responsibility, because no is accountable for their actions in Pakistan. In theoretical sense, anything is possible, but in a realistic sense the people of Pakistan are not capable of reform, because they chose to live in self-denial and as long as they opt to exist within a fanstasy instead of the real world, nothing meaningful can be accepted from people, who refuse to accept the reality. Reality in Pakistan is about the atmospherics and not about the tangible issues.
Pakistanis have created a myth about Pakistan and in this myth, Pakistan is one of the best nations of the world, with a economic progress report card, which is the envy of the developed world. In this mythical land, there is no crime; there is no hunger or poverty or lack of clean and safe drinking water. The streets of Pakistan are paved and the street lights work and each morning the garbage is picked up regimentally. We not only preach this reality to others, but we also reassure ourselves that it is true and we do not ask questions why we believe this reality in case, our own answers might not be credible enough to maintain the illogic of the false pretence, which we accept as the truth.
In Pakistan, we think that if we announce a welfare scheme or a development plan, it will magically happen and we do not have to do anything to make it real. We form committees, which form sub-committee, which form working groups, which analyze the issues and then report up the chain of incompetence. We publish reports and in the reports, which we publish, Pakistan is the eptiome of development. Our president warns us not to fall victim to ``paralysis by analysis`` and this means that we should not reason or rationalize anything, but simply act mindlessly, without reason or rhyme. The Pakistan, which exists in the official reports and the reams of paper has no resemblence to the Pakistan, which exists in reality.
BeeJay, I am not passionate about anything, because as a self-certified cynic, I hold the proposition that humanity is an unqualfied mess and nothing good will come from it! :)
As to convincing others of what I think, I believe I am bit more sensible than that, because I know, fully well, that you can only convince people, when they are willing to listen and be convinced. In the case of Pakistan, I will not convince anyone because they all believe that there is nothing wrong in Pakistan and are thus, not willing to listen to anyone who preaches a contary idea. My advice to myself is what I tell all the young Turks and revolutionaries, who want to change the world - make sure that world wants to change before you seek to change it!
Ciao
BeeJay, I am not being pessimistic. What you refer to as my pessismistic outlook is a simple acceptance of reality as it prevails in Pakistan. To be perfectly honest with you, I have no great expectations that Pakistan will improve in the near foreseeable future.
Education is not a solution in Pakistan, because even the educated people of Pakistan exhibit a sense of behavior, which is not normally accepted or associated from educated people. To make matters worse, education in Pakistan itself fosters a sense of elitism, which assumes that it has the answers for all of the nation`s problems. In fact, it is the educated people of Pakistan, who have consistently favored laws, which have ended up pushing Pakistan to the edge of abyss. It is the utter and sheer disdain and contempt, which the educated people of Pakistan have for their other less educated citizens, which has repeatedly denied democracy in Pakistan. It is a common mindset amongst the educated people of Pakistan that since the majority of the nation is illiterate, the educated people are thus better qualified to decided what is ``good for Pakistan``.
The ``curing powers of education`` is non-existent in Pakistan. BeeJay, education in Pakistan is not about learning and gaining enlightment or knowledge or awareness; it is about mindlessly memorizing a lie and then repeating it as the truth. Pakistani education does not prepare the student for anything, because the curricula is so outmoded and the methodology of instruction so political, that the students often graduate with worthless degrees. The rule of the thumb in Pakistan is that students go to colleges and universities not to get educated but to get degrees, which confer upon them social status of an educated person.
People of Pakistan might stop the downward spirial of events if, as you suggest, they gain an awareness of the issues and the problems, but it will never happen. The people of Pakistan are more interested in denying the truth and if they admit to the truth, it is because it is so painfully bitter that they cannot deny it anymore, they will blame some one else as being responsible for the wrongs in Pakistan but will never hold themselves accountable. There is a total abdication of personal responsibility in Pakistan and this corresponds into a lack of civic responsibility, because no is accountable for their actions in Pakistan. In theoretical sense, anything is possible, but in a realistic sense the people of Pakistan are not capable of reform, because they chose to live in self-denial and as long as they opt to exist within a fanstasy instead of the real world, nothing meaningful can be accepted from people, who refuse to accept the reality. Reality in Pakistan is about the atmospherics and not about the tangible issues.
Pakistanis have created a myth about Pakistan and in this myth, Pakistan is one of the best nations of the world, with a economic progress report card, which is the envy of the developed world. In this mythical land, there is no crime; there is no hunger or poverty or lack of clean and safe drinking water. The streets of Pakistan are paved and the street lights work and each morning the garbage is picked up regimentally. We not only preach this reality to others, but we also reassure ourselves that it is true and we do not ask questions why we believe this reality in case, our own answers might not be credible enough to maintain the illogic of the false pretence, which we accept as the truth.
In Pakistan, we think that if we announce a welfare scheme or a development plan, it will magically happen and we do not have to do anything to make it real. We form committees, which form sub-committee, which form working groups, which analyze the issues and then report up the chain of incompetence. We publish reports and in the reports, which we publish, Pakistan is the eptiome of development. Our president warns us not to fall victim to ``paralysis by analysis`` and this means that we should not reason or rationalize anything, but simply act mindlessly, without reason or rhyme. The Pakistan, which exists in the official reports and the reams of paper has no resemblence to the Pakistan, which exists in reality.
BeeJay, I am not passionate about anything, because as a self-certified cynic, I hold the proposition that humanity is an unqualfied mess and nothing good will come from it! :)
As to convincing others of what I think, I believe I am bit more sensible than that, because I know, fully well, that you can only convince people, when they are willing to listen and be convinced. In the case of Pakistan, I will not convince anyone because they all believe that there is nothing wrong in Pakistan and are thus, not willing to listen to anyone who preaches a contary idea. My advice to myself is what I tell all the young Turks and revolutionaries, who want to change the world - make sure that world wants to change before you seek to change it!
Ciao
#42 Posted by BeeJay on April 16, 2005 3:42:41 am
Reply #41, Ferozk.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. Here is my “simplified” read of what you wrote.
There should be fair laws. These should be enforced. People should demand that enforcement. Individuals should not put narrow selfish and regional interests before those of the nation. The army is a culprit but politicians provide it ample excuses because of own selfish and regional mindsets. Solution: accept the situation for what it is and the fact that things will probably get worse before (maybe) they get better some day.
Quite a bleak picture! Unfortunately, much of it applies to the whole subcontinent (except for that part about the opportunistic army)!
However, I do think that you are being a little bit too pessimistic by having not put enough faith in the “curing powers” of education, when available, and the basic fact that people in Pakistan are fundamentally no different from the rest of the subcontinent and are very capable of making up for lost time once a true realization of the current predicament sets in!
On the positive side, as long as there are individuals who think passionately about this issue like you apparently do and can perhaps bring a few others along to think along the same lines, there is always hope that things will improve faster, no matter how tough the odds!
#41 Posted by ferozk on April 15, 2005 9:35:26 am
re: BeeJay # 40
BeeJay, in my view the real problem and the real issue, in Pakistan is not discovering the solution, but to implement it because the solution already exists and it is to restore the basic norms upon which a civil society can function. There is no lack of viable options to tackle with the problems, but nothing gets done; especically when there is an urgent and dire need not only to match actions (policies) with words (laws) but implement them.
A good example of this failure of intention was the recent decision by the cabinet in Islamabad not to confront the Hudood Ordinance`s clauses, which where discriminatory against the women. This is a serious problem and it is symptomatic of the fact that Pakistani governments are more interested in ignoring the problem than in admiting that there is a problem. Common sense would suggest that only option/solution to Pakistan`s problems is one of nihilism, but that option/solution is not attractive, because it would simply compound anarchy with more anarchy.
If the government is really serious about addressing the issues, the first and most logical step would be to enfore a sense of law and order in the nation and implement the writ of the state. A lack of law and order impacts the government in a negative sense for the simple reason that in Pakistan, a government`s legitimacy is often measured by its ability to provide a modicum of physical security to its citizens. There will be and there can be no democracy in Pakistan until the rulers of Pakistan are willing to trust the judgement of the electorate, no matter how wrong it is and since they are not, political rights will be gradually denied in Pakistan to impose political choices upon the population.
At this stage, the blame has to shared proportionally by the people and it cannot be placed on the shoulders of the elected or non-elected rulers of Pakistan. Political rights have to be demanded and if the need be, political rights have to be wrested from the political elites of Pakistan. This stage of political development can only happen in Pakistan if there is an awareness in Pakistanis of the plight of their situation and Pakistanis stop creating political enclaves of privilege based on the strenght of their economic influences.
However, if there is a solution, it will have to come from the people of Pakistan, and it will only come, when they stop appeasing the encrouchment of injustice into every sphere of Pakistani society and demand justice from their governments; not exclusivity from law based on their political-social-economic status and worth in the Pakistani society.
Therefore, the ``we`` is all of Pakistan and unless we think alike as a nation and act as a nation, we will be never be a nation. It is for this reason, why nothing is ever accomplished in Pakistan because we are a nation divided and a nation which is its own worst enemy and we will gladly compromise the interests of our compatriots in order to secure our own interests. To paraphrase an old expression, Pakistan is not a nation with individuals, but individuals with a nation. There is no sense of nationalism in Pakistan, because it threatens the idea of provincialism, which is the bedrock of political influence in Pakistan and powers of provincialism and its influence itself rests upon the twin pillars of feudalism and illiteracy.
Herein lies the crux of the problem, which is also rich in irony. The only institutions in Pakistan, which have a national characteristic and can help Pakistan achieve national coherence and identity are the bureaucracy and military. These two institutions are more representative of Pakistan than most other institutions of Pakistan combined, because they recruit from all over Pakistan. Granted that it is true that there is a provincial disparity in them, but they still retain the only approximation to the claim of being representative of Pakistan in a holistic sense of Pakistani nationalism. However, this very intellectual ethos of the military and the bureaucracy, which sees itself as the ``thin line`` against the forces of chaos and ruin examplified by the politics of provincialism, is not willing to trust the politicans and is not confident enough to allow them to rule Pakistan. Consequently, the military and the bureaucracy are not a solution to Pakistan`s problems as they are the cause of the problems due to their own myths of indespensibility in Pakistan.
However, there is a merit to the military-bureaucratic agrument, because politics of Pakistan are, and have been, generally provincial and Pakistan has never been able to create a politcal framework - a political party - which can be truly described as a national political party. The only party, which came close to this honorfic, was the Pakistan People`s Party, but the PPP itself claimed this achievement on flawed premises. PPP`s claim to power was based on its election results in the elections of 1970, but those results were for both East and West Pakistan and the breakup of Pakistan in 1971 mooted those elections results. Had PPP contested fresh elections after the debacle in 1971, it would have a more solid claim on the status, but in this case, it only emerged as provincial party since it could not carry the majority in rest of the nation.
This is what the problem is; PPP is a major party in Sindh and Punjab but not in NWFP and Baluchistan. PML-QA and PML-N is a party with power in Punjab mostly and MQM is Sindh only party and the MMA is only powerful in NWFP and in Baluchistan it is handicapped by a political alliance. Hence, the politics of Pakistan are the amplification of provincial politics and due to this reason, it is very difficult to forge consensus on national issues. For example, the construction of Kalabagh dam cannot create a national consensus because the political debate over the issue is dominated by provincial politics.
Therefore, the argument that evil for the sake of good is not evil but pragmatism is a facile logic in the case of Pakistan. Likewise, a good dictator is comparable to a bad politican, because both are unwilling or/and unable to reform the system. The issue is not to compare dictators to politicans; elected to the non-elected, because the real issue is one of political legitmacy and acceptance and in this case, neither the dictators or the politicans are seen as legitimate representatives and thus, are not accepted as such by the people of Pakistan.
What is the solution?
The solution lies in the acceptance and the realization of the fact that Pakistan has entered a realm of dysfunctional politics, and this process can be slowed down but not reversed. The process will have to evolve to its own conclusion and it must be allowed to, because political tinkering with the system, to make it better, will only make it worse. Like water finds its own level, the political system in Pakistan must be allowed to find its own balance; its own logic and raison d`etre.
Ciao
BeeJay, in my view the real problem and the real issue, in Pakistan is not discovering the solution, but to implement it because the solution already exists and it is to restore the basic norms upon which a civil society can function. There is no lack of viable options to tackle with the problems, but nothing gets done; especically when there is an urgent and dire need not only to match actions (policies) with words (laws) but implement them.
A good example of this failure of intention was the recent decision by the cabinet in Islamabad not to confront the Hudood Ordinance`s clauses, which where discriminatory against the women. This is a serious problem and it is symptomatic of the fact that Pakistani governments are more interested in ignoring the problem than in admiting that there is a problem. Common sense would suggest that only option/solution to Pakistan`s problems is one of nihilism, but that option/solution is not attractive, because it would simply compound anarchy with more anarchy.
If the government is really serious about addressing the issues, the first and most logical step would be to enfore a sense of law and order in the nation and implement the writ of the state. A lack of law and order impacts the government in a negative sense for the simple reason that in Pakistan, a government`s legitimacy is often measured by its ability to provide a modicum of physical security to its citizens. There will be and there can be no democracy in Pakistan until the rulers of Pakistan are willing to trust the judgement of the electorate, no matter how wrong it is and since they are not, political rights will be gradually denied in Pakistan to impose political choices upon the population.
At this stage, the blame has to shared proportionally by the people and it cannot be placed on the shoulders of the elected or non-elected rulers of Pakistan. Political rights have to be demanded and if the need be, political rights have to be wrested from the political elites of Pakistan. This stage of political development can only happen in Pakistan if there is an awareness in Pakistanis of the plight of their situation and Pakistanis stop creating political enclaves of privilege based on the strenght of their economic influences.
However, if there is a solution, it will have to come from the people of Pakistan, and it will only come, when they stop appeasing the encrouchment of injustice into every sphere of Pakistani society and demand justice from their governments; not exclusivity from law based on their political-social-economic status and worth in the Pakistani society.
Therefore, the ``we`` is all of Pakistan and unless we think alike as a nation and act as a nation, we will be never be a nation. It is for this reason, why nothing is ever accomplished in Pakistan because we are a nation divided and a nation which is its own worst enemy and we will gladly compromise the interests of our compatriots in order to secure our own interests. To paraphrase an old expression, Pakistan is not a nation with individuals, but individuals with a nation. There is no sense of nationalism in Pakistan, because it threatens the idea of provincialism, which is the bedrock of political influence in Pakistan and powers of provincialism and its influence itself rests upon the twin pillars of feudalism and illiteracy.
Herein lies the crux of the problem, which is also rich in irony. The only institutions in Pakistan, which have a national characteristic and can help Pakistan achieve national coherence and identity are the bureaucracy and military. These two institutions are more representative of Pakistan than most other institutions of Pakistan combined, because they recruit from all over Pakistan. Granted that it is true that there is a provincial disparity in them, but they still retain the only approximation to the claim of being representative of Pakistan in a holistic sense of Pakistani nationalism. However, this very intellectual ethos of the military and the bureaucracy, which sees itself as the ``thin line`` against the forces of chaos and ruin examplified by the politics of provincialism, is not willing to trust the politicans and is not confident enough to allow them to rule Pakistan. Consequently, the military and the bureaucracy are not a solution to Pakistan`s problems as they are the cause of the problems due to their own myths of indespensibility in Pakistan.
However, there is a merit to the military-bureaucratic agrument, because politics of Pakistan are, and have been, generally provincial and Pakistan has never been able to create a politcal framework - a political party - which can be truly described as a national political party. The only party, which came close to this honorfic, was the Pakistan People`s Party, but the PPP itself claimed this achievement on flawed premises. PPP`s claim to power was based on its election results in the elections of 1970, but those results were for both East and West Pakistan and the breakup of Pakistan in 1971 mooted those elections results. Had PPP contested fresh elections after the debacle in 1971, it would have a more solid claim on the status, but in this case, it only emerged as provincial party since it could not carry the majority in rest of the nation.
This is what the problem is; PPP is a major party in Sindh and Punjab but not in NWFP and Baluchistan. PML-QA and PML-N is a party with power in Punjab mostly and MQM is Sindh only party and the MMA is only powerful in NWFP and in Baluchistan it is handicapped by a political alliance. Hence, the politics of Pakistan are the amplification of provincial politics and due to this reason, it is very difficult to forge consensus on national issues. For example, the construction of Kalabagh dam cannot create a national consensus because the political debate over the issue is dominated by provincial politics.
Therefore, the argument that evil for the sake of good is not evil but pragmatism is a facile logic in the case of Pakistan. Likewise, a good dictator is comparable to a bad politican, because both are unwilling or/and unable to reform the system. The issue is not to compare dictators to politicans; elected to the non-elected, because the real issue is one of political legitmacy and acceptance and in this case, neither the dictators or the politicans are seen as legitimate representatives and thus, are not accepted as such by the people of Pakistan.
What is the solution?
The solution lies in the acceptance and the realization of the fact that Pakistan has entered a realm of dysfunctional politics, and this process can be slowed down but not reversed. The process will have to evolve to its own conclusion and it must be allowed to, because political tinkering with the system, to make it better, will only make it worse. Like water finds its own level, the political system in Pakistan must be allowed to find its own balance; its own logic and raison d`etre.
Ciao
#40 Posted by BeeJay on April 15, 2005 12:00:06 am
An interesting article, written with a LOT of passion!
Note: Ferozk #1
[Those who give up the right to be free, have no right to complain about the loss of their freedoms.]
[We are evil, because we have rationalized that our evil actions are actually good intentions and as such, are not to be blamed.]
These are probably some of the most candid words I have heard said on this site, all the more remarkable because of the absence of any malice behind them (only a certain degree of sadness)!
Who is the “we”, Ferozk? Certainly not ALL of the country, I hope! Will the “rationalization” ever stop? Can it be stopped?
Ferozk, obviously this issue is close to your heart and you have thought through it a lot. Is there a solution possible? What would be YOUR solution? Conventional wisdom says that one should let even a “bad” democracy and “corrupt” set of “democratically elected” rulers function for a while until they “get it right” on their own? The alternative, of course is the present setup, which promises (who knows if it even intends to deliver) to slowly work the nation back into shape?
Will there ever even be a choice?
#39 Posted by jay on April 14, 2005 9:05:07 pm
Cabinet rejects changes in Hadood Ordinance
Ansar Abbasi
ISLAMABAD: The federal cabinet has rejected controversial amendments proposed in Hadood Ordinance aimed at restricting police from arresting offenders involved in serious crimes like adultery and prostitution without court orders.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
That sums up the pak values. That also explains why murders are not investigated..one documentary says that edhi foundation buries 70 unclaimed bodies in karachi per day, killed and left on the roads in pakistanis affectionately call as sectarian violence and I call as jihadic killings which is not a crime in pakistan.
Ansar Abbasi
ISLAMABAD: The federal cabinet has rejected controversial amendments proposed in Hadood Ordinance aimed at restricting police from arresting offenders involved in serious crimes like adultery and prostitution without court orders.
//////////////////////////////////////////////////
That sums up the pak values. That also explains why murders are not investigated..one documentary says that edhi foundation buries 70 unclaimed bodies in karachi per day, killed and left on the roads in pakistanis affectionately call as sectarian violence and I call as jihadic killings which is not a crime in pakistan.
#38 Posted by vagabond78 on April 14, 2005 7:14:42 pm
Aishwaria Rai is the only one who can get Mushy to shed his uniform. So please forward this to MMA, PPP and others. She`s your deliverer :)
#37 Posted by jay on April 14, 2005 6:18:01 pm
Caution...caution...
Post 35 under the name of ferozk is actually mine as I use that name also at times. All responses to post 35, if you choose may be addressed to jay
Post 35 under the name of ferozk is actually mine as I use that name also at times. All responses to post 35, if you choose may be addressed to jay
#36 Posted by H-Ikram on April 14, 2005 5:10:32 am
Margaret Thatcher is rumoured to have said that she is the only man in her Cabinet.
I have no problems in admitting that Nighat Yasmeen is one of the very few men left in Pakistan.
It is really disgusting to see all the bloody paper tiger generals being urinated on by the Mush and none of them have the courage to squeak let alone stand up and slap him back.
What a nasty lot we have got.
Well, to be fair ? their predecessors were not any better either.
If one has to choose between Cancer and AIDS, or Mush and Zia, I am sure not many will think twice while opting for Mush.
And if it took 11 years for our generals to finally put mangoes in the *** of that pig then the current lot might be excused.
After all many of them started their careers in the atmosphere created by Zia where everything decent was strictly banned.
#35 Posted by ferozk on April 14, 2005 1:38:45 am
re: Romair
I was not comparing Pakistan to New York or Canada.
Whether I am overly critical or not is an subjective discussion. The point is that Pakistan is increasingly becoming a dysfuctional place and there is no longer any coherence to what constitues as daily life in Pakistan. The point, which seems to have escaped you, is to not compare rural Pakistan with urban Pakistan, but that Pakistani society is wilting and collapsing.
The government recently announced massive amendments to the police ordinance to stop crime and by passing the newly reformed bill, the government claims that it will end lawlessness in Pakistan. This is a total and complete distortation of reality. The problem in Pakistan is not a lack of laws, but it the lack of their implementation. The government has not implemented one law, which is already existing but keeps on creating and passing news laws. Laws, by themselves, do not prevent crimes, but a huge body of law does create a perception that Pakistan has laws.
Musharraf talks about enlightened moderation but he has done nothing to implement his vision by taking any action to back his words. Now, the MMA has announced that enlightened moderation is another way of allowing vulgarity against Islam and it has once more shaped the debate to its advantage. Musharraf vacated the field to the MMA, because while he harped about his vision, he did not bother to implement it and now, it is too late.
However, getting back to your comments.
Romair, it makes no difference to a woman raped in Mianwali or in Lahore about which city is more developed, because the interest of the victim is about access to justice and punishing those who committed the crime. Should a begger in Lahore be considered better off than a begger in Mianwali, because s/he lives in a more developed part of Pakistan? Does the existence of a PC in Lahore gurantee that there is law and order in Pakistan?
Romair, the collapse of civil society in Pakistan is not going to be arrested by making the argument whether Pakistanis can locate Pakistani cities on the map of Pakistan!
You said and I quote, ``I am in Pakistan, I hang around with the yuppy burger city IT crowd (Chowk type crowd)``.
Romair, the yuppy burger IT Chowk crowd is not a representative of Pakistan. What good is all the places, which you visited when the average Pakistani has no access to them?
Ciao
I was not comparing Pakistan to New York or Canada.
Whether I am overly critical or not is an subjective discussion. The point is that Pakistan is increasingly becoming a dysfuctional place and there is no longer any coherence to what constitues as daily life in Pakistan. The point, which seems to have escaped you, is to not compare rural Pakistan with urban Pakistan, but that Pakistani society is wilting and collapsing.
The government recently announced massive amendments to the police ordinance to stop crime and by passing the newly reformed bill, the government claims that it will end lawlessness in Pakistan. This is a total and complete distortation of reality. The problem in Pakistan is not a lack of laws, but it the lack of their implementation. The government has not implemented one law, which is already existing but keeps on creating and passing news laws. Laws, by themselves, do not prevent crimes, but a huge body of law does create a perception that Pakistan has laws.
Musharraf talks about enlightened moderation but he has done nothing to implement his vision by taking any action to back his words. Now, the MMA has announced that enlightened moderation is another way of allowing vulgarity against Islam and it has once more shaped the debate to its advantage. Musharraf vacated the field to the MMA, because while he harped about his vision, he did not bother to implement it and now, it is too late.
However, getting back to your comments.
Romair, it makes no difference to a woman raped in Mianwali or in Lahore about which city is more developed, because the interest of the victim is about access to justice and punishing those who committed the crime. Should a begger in Lahore be considered better off than a begger in Mianwali, because s/he lives in a more developed part of Pakistan? Does the existence of a PC in Lahore gurantee that there is law and order in Pakistan?
Romair, the collapse of civil society in Pakistan is not going to be arrested by making the argument whether Pakistanis can locate Pakistani cities on the map of Pakistan!
You said and I quote, ``I am in Pakistan, I hang around with the yuppy burger city IT crowd (Chowk type crowd)``.
Romair, the yuppy burger IT Chowk crowd is not a representative of Pakistan. What good is all the places, which you visited when the average Pakistani has no access to them?
Ciao
#34 Posted by jay on April 13, 2005 11:08:23 pm
Romair 32,
What a pathetic response to ferozk. He is talking about the collapse of the civil society, and it is collapsing around dunkin donuts and burger kings. That has nothing much to do with the lives of the wealthy, if you ignore that they have armed guards and they never dare to step out alone.
The hatred institutionalised and politicised by TNT is the core. Mulsims cannot live with hindus has been transformed to hindus, then ahmadia, then shias...... A nation that has ghori and gaznavi as heros cannot complain when the jihadis are turning on the rich, that is exactly what the above pak heros did in somnath temple. The actions of these jihadis is no different the actions of the earlier jihadis.
Only when the shaheeds are treated as criminals, then only there can be any civil society take roots in pakistan.
What a pathetic response to ferozk. He is talking about the collapse of the civil society, and it is collapsing around dunkin donuts and burger kings. That has nothing much to do with the lives of the wealthy, if you ignore that they have armed guards and they never dare to step out alone.
The hatred institutionalised and politicised by TNT is the core. Mulsims cannot live with hindus has been transformed to hindus, then ahmadia, then shias...... A nation that has ghori and gaznavi as heros cannot complain when the jihadis are turning on the rich, that is exactly what the above pak heros did in somnath temple. The actions of these jihadis is no different the actions of the earlier jihadis.
Only when the shaheeds are treated as criminals, then only there can be any civil society take roots in pakistan.
#33 Posted by jang on April 13, 2005 4:37:16 pm
It appeasrs that its the elite of pakistan are totally afraid of middle-class democracy.
#32 Posted by Romair on April 13, 2005 12:32:19 pm
Ferozek #29: I think you are overly critical, and let me tell you why. It’s because you are comparing Lahore to Canada and USA. If you were to compare Lahore to the other parts of Pakistan, you would realize how lucky you are.
In my whole professional career in Pakistan, I never lived in a big city, or even in a midsized one. I am quite convinced, had I worked in Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi, I would have never left Pakistan. Here is the list of cities I lived and worked in – briefly or for extended amounts of time -, from the age of 15 onwards: Sargodha, Mianwali, Sakesar, a small city next to Nowshera, a village sixty miles from Multan. The only highlight was a brief stay in Murree.
Can you point to Sakesar on a map of Pakistan? How many Pakistanis can? Do they know where Shorkot is?
I remember when we used to return from the boondocks to vacation in Lahore. It was like going to Switzerland. I had a one day stay in PC once, which was the highlight of my professional career in Pakistan. I used to envy the people, who actually worked in Lahore, and wondered what their lives were like. In the village next to Multan, the whole place had a tiny bazaar with one store that sold chocolate bars and ice-cream. That was our entertainment, for one and a half years. We would all go there and eat our daily chocolate. Other than that we were confined to our little colony, where one worked and slept (and that was about it). I once took my father-in-law’s driver to this place, from Lahore. He saw the place and ran away within a day.
So maybe that is why I am relatively optimistic about Pakistan, now. Because now, whenever I am in Pakistan, I hang around with the yuppy burger city IT crowd (Chowk type crowd). They take me to places in Lahore and Islamabad that I didn’t know even existed in Pakistan. And when I compare them to the places, I used to live in, and I naturally feel Pakistan has progressed.
And maybe this is why you are so depressed. Because you are comparing Lahore to New York and Vancouver. Spend two years in Mianwali, and you will learn to appreciated your current surroundings………….
In my whole professional career in Pakistan, I never lived in a big city, or even in a midsized one. I am quite convinced, had I worked in Lahore, Islamabad, Karachi, I would have never left Pakistan. Here is the list of cities I lived and worked in – briefly or for extended amounts of time -, from the age of 15 onwards: Sargodha, Mianwali, Sakesar, a small city next to Nowshera, a village sixty miles from Multan. The only highlight was a brief stay in Murree.
Can you point to Sakesar on a map of Pakistan? How many Pakistanis can? Do they know where Shorkot is?
I remember when we used to return from the boondocks to vacation in Lahore. It was like going to Switzerland. I had a one day stay in PC once, which was the highlight of my professional career in Pakistan. I used to envy the people, who actually worked in Lahore, and wondered what their lives were like. In the village next to Multan, the whole place had a tiny bazaar with one store that sold chocolate bars and ice-cream. That was our entertainment, for one and a half years. We would all go there and eat our daily chocolate. Other than that we were confined to our little colony, where one worked and slept (and that was about it). I once took my father-in-law’s driver to this place, from Lahore. He saw the place and ran away within a day.
So maybe that is why I am relatively optimistic about Pakistan, now. Because now, whenever I am in Pakistan, I hang around with the yuppy burger city IT crowd (Chowk type crowd). They take me to places in Lahore and Islamabad that I didn’t know even existed in Pakistan. And when I compare them to the places, I used to live in, and I naturally feel Pakistan has progressed.
And maybe this is why you are so depressed. Because you are comparing Lahore to New York and Vancouver. Spend two years in Mianwali, and you will learn to appreciated your current surroundings………….
#31 Posted by Mukhlis on April 13, 2005 8:51:58 am
Re: Various posts:
``If so that`s not true...consider Yahya Khan was overthrown by outraged junior officers``
There have been a few honorable men within the uniformed lot who resigned or opposed their commanders on matters of principle (and hats off to them), but even they could not cause the slightest change in the nefarious designs of their commanders. For every 1 principled officer there are 1000 more who are willing to say yes to every pathetic word coming out of their commander`s mouth. Otherwise there couldnt`ve been bombs falling on Pakistanis in tribal areas & Baluchistan, and murderous military actions wouldn`t have taken place against the Bengalis in 1971 .
Patriotic officers who really want to ``take care`` of their commander do what Hitler`s officers did on July 20th, 1944.
http://www.answers.com/topic/july-20-plot#Wikipedia
Junior officers making a commotion after the 1971 debacle was an emotional reaction after having lost ``half the country``. And in those days army was still not as entrenched in business ventures as it is today, so there was still some shame and sense of duty left. Nothing of the sort that happened in 1971 can be expected to happen now. Today everyone from the junior to senior officers is looking for minting money, as can be expected after army`s constant meddling in country`s affairs for another 3 decades even after 1971.
``lets not forget the whole general Ziauddin episode in 1999 when Nawaz was trying to impose his own person onto the Army some generals did back him against Mushy.. ``
They did? Well all of them were supposed to back Zia Ud Din, not a few. In any case I`m not sure that any of them backed Zia Ud Din. Had that been the case, Musharraf would have fired those corps commanders right after the coup. Nothing of that sort happened. Musharraf only changed corps commanders in a radical fashion for the first time after 9-11 at America`s behest. In any case, as I mentioned earlier, a few dissentions here and there have never made any dent in the COAS`s intentions to screw the country and all of them- Ayub, Zia & Musharraf- have successfully raped Pakistan, a few resignations here and there not withstanding.
``Do keep in mind that people who can volunteer to risk their lives for their country, have a lot of character and patriotism (far more than the rest of us Pakistanis).``
All armies in the world are willing to risk thier lives and die for their country. And no army asks for its pound of flesh like Pak army does. Besides, majority of ordinary Pakistanis are willing to risk their lives for the country. Thousands of people who volunteered to fight and gave their lives during the Afghan war and during the Kashmir ops. were civilians, not faujis. The willingness to die for certain causes is not the forte of Pak army alone. And if the army feels that`s too much, then there are millions of ordinary Pakistanis willing to take on the roll and sacrifice their lives, like they did in Afghanistan & Kashmir, while army generals & their children sat comfy in thier DHA mansions.
I suspect that in any future confrontation with an enemy, this pampered army of ours -especially with an incompetent, low IQ, and morally bankrupt top command of ours- is going to do exactly with Saddam`s forces did i.e. take to their heels and vanish in thin air, never to be seen again. The only resistance that will come will be from the ordinary Pakistanis.
``Recently, Musharraf fired the whole top command of the PAF, because they had refused to participate in Kargil, when he was COAS. The PAF saying that it was a bad idea (which it was).``
Yes, and that is the whole problem. The inaction of military brass when the COAS screws an institution or the country is just plain pathetic. Musharraf can fire another 5 top PAF officers tomorrow without any reason, and there`ll be no squeak. Then the day after tomorrow, he can fire 5 of the current corps commanders and install even more incompetent generals in their place, and there`ll be no squeak. He can keep hiring, firing, overthrowing, installing whoever he wants to and there`ll be but minor protest from within the army, and that`s one of the points of Nighat`s article. Inaction by the army commanders even when their COAS is acting like a maniac.
``The problem with the Pakistani military is within one specific group. The Army Generals.``
The problem is with the whole of the army where even the junior officers don`t want to rock the boat in fear of losing the perks that they can obtain once they attain somewhat senior positions.
Urstruly.... that`s a good article that you have posted. Do keep posting more. I don`t agree with some of the views that you post on Chowk, but I certainly do agree with most of your insights about our brave soldiers. I wonder where all the ``ghairat-mand`` faujis have gone now? Hundreds of Pakistanis are missing, in jails without a proof, being tortured, on the behest of U.S by their COAS, and they are keeping mum? What oath did they take when they joined the army? To protect the people of Pakistan or to protect their evil chiefs in whatever they do?
``If so that`s not true...consider Yahya Khan was overthrown by outraged junior officers``
There have been a few honorable men within the uniformed lot who resigned or opposed their commanders on matters of principle (and hats off to them), but even they could not cause the slightest change in the nefarious designs of their commanders. For every 1 principled officer there are 1000 more who are willing to say yes to every pathetic word coming out of their commander`s mouth. Otherwise there couldnt`ve been bombs falling on Pakistanis in tribal areas & Baluchistan, and murderous military actions wouldn`t have taken place against the Bengalis in 1971 .
Patriotic officers who really want to ``take care`` of their commander do what Hitler`s officers did on July 20th, 1944.
http://www.answers.com/topic/july-20-plot#Wikipedia
Junior officers making a commotion after the 1971 debacle was an emotional reaction after having lost ``half the country``. And in those days army was still not as entrenched in business ventures as it is today, so there was still some shame and sense of duty left. Nothing of the sort that happened in 1971 can be expected to happen now. Today everyone from the junior to senior officers is looking for minting money, as can be expected after army`s constant meddling in country`s affairs for another 3 decades even after 1971.
``lets not forget the whole general Ziauddin episode in 1999 when Nawaz was trying to impose his own person onto the Army some generals did back him against Mushy.. ``
They did? Well all of them were supposed to back Zia Ud Din, not a few. In any case I`m not sure that any of them backed Zia Ud Din. Had that been the case, Musharraf would have fired those corps commanders right after the coup. Nothing of that sort happened. Musharraf only changed corps commanders in a radical fashion for the first time after 9-11 at America`s behest. In any case, as I mentioned earlier, a few dissentions here and there have never made any dent in the COAS`s intentions to screw the country and all of them- Ayub, Zia & Musharraf- have successfully raped Pakistan, a few resignations here and there not withstanding.
``Do keep in mind that people who can volunteer to risk their lives for their country, have a lot of character and patriotism (far more than the rest of us Pakistanis).``
All armies in the world are willing to risk thier lives and die for their country. And no army asks for its pound of flesh like Pak army does. Besides, majority of ordinary Pakistanis are willing to risk their lives for the country. Thousands of people who volunteered to fight and gave their lives during the Afghan war and during the Kashmir ops. were civilians, not faujis. The willingness to die for certain causes is not the forte of Pak army alone. And if the army feels that`s too much, then there are millions of ordinary Pakistanis willing to take on the roll and sacrifice their lives, like they did in Afghanistan & Kashmir, while army generals & their children sat comfy in thier DHA mansions.
I suspect that in any future confrontation with an enemy, this pampered army of ours -especially with an incompetent, low IQ, and morally bankrupt top command of ours- is going to do exactly with Saddam`s forces did i.e. take to their heels and vanish in thin air, never to be seen again. The only resistance that will come will be from the ordinary Pakistanis.
``Recently, Musharraf fired the whole top command of the PAF, because they had refused to participate in Kargil, when he was COAS. The PAF saying that it was a bad idea (which it was).``
Yes, and that is the whole problem. The inaction of military brass when the COAS screws an institution or the country is just plain pathetic. Musharraf can fire another 5 top PAF officers tomorrow without any reason, and there`ll be no squeak. Then the day after tomorrow, he can fire 5 of the current corps commanders and install even more incompetent generals in their place, and there`ll be no squeak. He can keep hiring, firing, overthrowing, installing whoever he wants to and there`ll be but minor protest from within the army, and that`s one of the points of Nighat`s article. Inaction by the army commanders even when their COAS is acting like a maniac.
``The problem with the Pakistani military is within one specific group. The Army Generals.``
The problem is with the whole of the army where even the junior officers don`t want to rock the boat in fear of losing the perks that they can obtain once they attain somewhat senior positions.
Urstruly.... that`s a good article that you have posted. Do keep posting more. I don`t agree with some of the views that you post on Chowk, but I certainly do agree with most of your insights about our brave soldiers. I wonder where all the ``ghairat-mand`` faujis have gone now? Hundreds of Pakistanis are missing, in jails without a proof, being tortured, on the behest of U.S by their COAS, and they are keeping mum? What oath did they take when they joined the army? To protect the people of Pakistan or to protect their evil chiefs in whatever they do?
#30 Posted by ferozk on April 13, 2005 8:44:45 am
re: Fuzair
Fuzair, what difference does it make if one is a sailor or an airman or a soldier?
The point is that when you wear a uniform, regardless of its color, you are representative of the nation and its laws and laws which you had promised to uphold and defend. So my friend, what is important? The constitution of Pakistan or the color of the uniform?
Ciao
Fuzair, what difference does it make if one is a sailor or an airman or a soldier?
The point is that when you wear a uniform, regardless of its color, you are representative of the nation and its laws and laws which you had promised to uphold and defend. So my friend, what is important? The constitution of Pakistan or the color of the uniform?
Ciao
#29 Posted by ferozk on April 13, 2005 8:26:28 am
re: Romair # 19
Thanks for the information. As to the depression, I am not suffering from any clincial depression, but what causes the impression is that I am reflecting the true reality of Pakistan.
From your vantage point in Canada, things might look rosy in Pakistan but fortunately you are not able to smell the stink from the streets, which I enhale on a daily basis while living in Pakistan. I simply write what I see and if that makes people think that I am bleek in my views, then they are right because what I see and experience is bleek itself.
I used to have the same impression of Pakistan as you, whilst I was living in the United States and it is a narrowly defined impression created by reading the Pakistani print media. Distence lends to enchantment and that is a flaw most of us, who lived as ex-patriots, suffer from in far away lands.
The harsh and bitter reality of Pakistan is that there is no writ of the government; there is no law and order and the graph of the crime is increasing geometrically. Poverty is grinding people into dispair and Musharraf claims that poverty is declining. In a manner of speaking Musharraf is correct; soon all the poor people will have died and there will be no poverty in Pakistan and in that sense poverty is declining in Pakistan but not fast enough! It is enough to bring a sane person to tears just deciding whether to believe his/her eyes or his/her ears or to close both of them and live in a fantasy world of a self creation. Inflation is increasing and the purchasing power of the rupee is declining. The poor are crying, but the blessed are too drunk to hear the complaints of the down trodden. Civic rights are being trampled into the dirt and the religion has become a punch line of an old and staid joke, which has been uttered so many times at so many cocktail parities, that it has lost all its sense of originality.
There is so little of cheer in Pakistan, that it hardly finds its way into a word here or there. It is very hard to be cheerful and happy, when there is nothing to rejoice, but there is only reason to make you despondent. The only practical option to retain your sanity is to ignore the reality and give up on idealism of hope, change and reform and start to look after your own interests at the cost of everyone else. The only way to exist in Pakistan of today is to become what you beheld in others and to do that, which you promised and foresweared not to do yourself. In short, you become a hypocrite, because you realize that you have been ``captured by the system`` and only way to survive is appease your own worth, because character is a liability in the Pakistan of spineless intentions.
We all have made our choices and picked our battles; some went away from the fight and some stayed to fight the battles, but never had the luxury to chose our battles or the fields of the battle itself. This is like the old story of the First World War; the generals in the rear had no comprehension or knowledge of how the soldiers in the front line trenches were fighting and just how hard and difficult was the tedium of struggle to stay alive in the trenches surrounded by death all the time. It reminds one, with clarity of why the generals sitting in their chateaus miles behind the front reading reports and relying on formulaic statistics could not understand why the advances were not gaining the required objectives.
Romair, to prolong the metaphor a bit more, there is vast difference between visiting the front lines on periodic inspection tours and then slying home before it gets dark and living in the front lines and confronting the associated problems on a daily basis. It is hard to imagine the hunger pangs in Pakistan, while you are blessed with abudence in Canada and it is hard to understand the frustration of poverty in Pakistan by reading the daily indexes, which say that poverty is declining in Pakistan. :)
It is difficult to understand the pain of a person, who is denied employment because his/her degree is worthless in a practical sense, though in theory s/he is an educated person and a college/university graduate. Only experience can fully explain the fear and sheer hopelessness of dispair, when stopped by the police on given pretext of a violation of law. Still, it makes for an amusing irony, when you are stopped for breaking the law in a land, where is there no law! :)
Romair, I will be candid with you. If you really feel that I am wrong and you are right, I will gladly switch places with you and move to Canada so that I can also be blessed with your optimism about Pakistan and you can return to Pakistan and you can share you optimism with the rest of the nation while living in Pakistan! lol :)
This is a rhetorical suggestion and I do not expect you to give up all you have so you can gain nothing! :)
Ciao
Thanks for the information. As to the depression, I am not suffering from any clincial depression, but what causes the impression is that I am reflecting the true reality of Pakistan.
From your vantage point in Canada, things might look rosy in Pakistan but fortunately you are not able to smell the stink from the streets, which I enhale on a daily basis while living in Pakistan. I simply write what I see and if that makes people think that I am bleek in my views, then they are right because what I see and experience is bleek itself.
I used to have the same impression of Pakistan as you, whilst I was living in the United States and it is a narrowly defined impression created by reading the Pakistani print media. Distence lends to enchantment and that is a flaw most of us, who lived as ex-patriots, suffer from in far away lands.
The harsh and bitter reality of Pakistan is that there is no writ of the government; there is no law and order and the graph of the crime is increasing geometrically. Poverty is grinding people into dispair and Musharraf claims that poverty is declining. In a manner of speaking Musharraf is correct; soon all the poor people will have died and there will be no poverty in Pakistan and in that sense poverty is declining in Pakistan but not fast enough! It is enough to bring a sane person to tears just deciding whether to believe his/her eyes or his/her ears or to close both of them and live in a fantasy world of a self creation. Inflation is increasing and the purchasing power of the rupee is declining. The poor are crying, but the blessed are too drunk to hear the complaints of the down trodden. Civic rights are being trampled into the dirt and the religion has become a punch line of an old and staid joke, which has been uttered so many times at so many cocktail parities, that it has lost all its sense of originality.
There is so little of cheer in Pakistan, that it hardly finds its way into a word here or there. It is very hard to be cheerful and happy, when there is nothing to rejoice, but there is only reason to make you despondent. The only practical option to retain your sanity is to ignore the reality and give up on idealism of hope, change and reform and start to look after your own interests at the cost of everyone else. The only way to exist in Pakistan of today is to become what you beheld in others and to do that, which you promised and foresweared not to do yourself. In short, you become a hypocrite, because you realize that you have been ``captured by the system`` and only way to survive is appease your own worth, because character is a liability in the Pakistan of spineless intentions.
We all have made our choices and picked our battles; some went away from the fight and some stayed to fight the battles, but never had the luxury to chose our battles or the fields of the battle itself. This is like the old story of the First World War; the generals in the rear had no comprehension or knowledge of how the soldiers in the front line trenches were fighting and just how hard and difficult was the tedium of struggle to stay alive in the trenches surrounded by death all the time. It reminds one, with clarity of why the generals sitting in their chateaus miles behind the front reading reports and relying on formulaic statistics could not understand why the advances were not gaining the required objectives.
Romair, to prolong the metaphor a bit more, there is vast difference between visiting the front lines on periodic inspection tours and then slying home before it gets dark and living in the front lines and confronting the associated problems on a daily basis. It is hard to imagine the hunger pangs in Pakistan, while you are blessed with abudence in Canada and it is hard to understand the frustration of poverty in Pakistan by reading the daily indexes, which say that poverty is declining in Pakistan. :)
It is difficult to understand the pain of a person, who is denied employment because his/her degree is worthless in a practical sense, though in theory s/he is an educated person and a college/university graduate. Only experience can fully explain the fear and sheer hopelessness of dispair, when stopped by the police on given pretext of a violation of law. Still, it makes for an amusing irony, when you are stopped for breaking the law in a land, where is there no law! :)
Romair, I will be candid with you. If you really feel that I am wrong and you are right, I will gladly switch places with you and move to Canada so that I can also be blessed with your optimism about Pakistan and you can return to Pakistan and you can share you optimism with the rest of the nation while living in Pakistan! lol :)
This is a rhetorical suggestion and I do not expect you to give up all you have so you can gain nothing! :)
Ciao
#28 Posted by stuka on April 13, 2005 5:07:32 am
Fuzair:
``Just as I wouldn`t expect an infant to know the difference between right or wrong, neither would I expect the great unwashed to be aware of their civic responsibilities in making sure that we watch the guardians. ``
I beg to disagree. When Indira Gandhi launched the emergency in India, it was the great unwashed and not the elite that responded to Jayaprakash Narayan. One of the most wanted men was George Fernandes, leader of the Railway Union at someone risen very much from the ranks of the great unwashed.
``Just as I wouldn`t expect an infant to know the difference between right or wrong, neither would I expect the great unwashed to be aware of their civic responsibilities in making sure that we watch the guardians. ``
I beg to disagree. When Indira Gandhi launched the emergency in India, it was the great unwashed and not the elite that responded to Jayaprakash Narayan. One of the most wanted men was George Fernandes, leader of the Railway Union at someone risen very much from the ranks of the great unwashed.
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