Punch Drunk Love

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To Saman’s friend!

I think you are over reacting. Most girls from middleclass families are not exposed to people who drink. From what I gather from this article, he is not abusive after drinking and it does seem like he is an occasional drinker. Give him some space. Encourage him to drink at home. People who drink occasionally tend to drink too much and lose handle. Your husband seems like a nice guy, be nice to him and let him drink at home and don’t make him feel guilty about it. You will be surprised how things turn out. I know there is nothing in Saudi Arabia to do in terms of entertainment but I recommend you find some recreation with some more folks. Arrange for card parties over the weekend. Invite people over for playing indoor games like Carom or even some karaoke. Keep him busy over the weekend and let him drink a couple of shots before he goes to bed in your bedroom. You talk to him while he is drinking and have a little fun with him.
It would be hard for you to overcome your own dislike of drinking but just remember people do look silly after drinking and a little sense of humor would go a long way for both of you to get over this hump.
Sometimes to keep the marriage going, someone has to sacrifice a little. He did and you acknowledge it. Now it is your turn to help him. Don’t run away from him.



//End of Ann Lander mode!

Saman,

I think your friend and her husband needs to see a counsellor. I am not sure if that facility is available in SA, but she needs to seriously look into that.

HP: How is drinking reflective of one`s economic class? What an ignorant and foolish argument! There are 100s of side effects of drinking. Being a social drinker is a completely different matter from being a dead drunk.

Come on Zahra! It was not an argument. It was a statement! That was not kind of you. Totally unnecessary and insensitive! You should be contrite. I hope you take it back.
Pakistani Middleclass (assuming that she is from Pakistan) families have a thing against even social drinking.
It is the middleclass morality that prohibits drinking or leads to prohibition. The upper and the lower classes live with that without any moral trepidation. (Now it is an argument and I stand by it!)
Try and visit some lower income areas in Pakistani cities and you will be surprised as to how many people are dealing with different kind of addictions and alcohol dependencies.
It is a social issue but for the middleclass it is more of a moral issue. In Pakistan religion has added another dimension to it.

The man needs some love.Methinks he feels constricted by his wife and kids, on top of living in a constrained society.His wife needs to understand and give him more space.Very often we hear only one side of a story.There are always two sides to every coin.It takes two hands to clap.His binge drinking is a way of communicating to those that mean something to him, THAT his life sucks.His family needs to understand.South asian women do not realize how clingy and possessive they can be, bombarding a man with all sorts of responsibiities and holding him ever hostage to society.I`m sure south asian women have their own set of issues too.That`s why i say it`s never one side alone that is responsible.We all need to care for one another.The man needs a break, his wife should give it to him, or she should take a break and go somewhere for a while.Or, they should see a counselor.For the sake of the kids.

BBC NEWS
Last Updated: Friday, 22 April, 2005, 13:29 GMT 14:29 UK
Karachi teacher`s family murdered
Police in the southern Pakistani city of Karachi have detained a school teacher after finding his wife and four sons dead with their throats slit.
Officers recovered a blood-stained kitchen knife from Nadeem Mansur when they were called to his home on Friday.
A caller had rung to tell police ``something terrible had happened``.
Inspector Amjad Rafi Channa, who arrested Mr Mansur, said he had appeared highly agitated, and could have been in shock.
``The real state of his mental health can only be determined by the doctors,`` Inspector Channa told BBC News.

---

We don`t want this to happen to this family do we??.Men in pakistan are more suppressed than us indian men.They need help, it seems

Obviously, the individual described here has a serious chemical dependence on alcohol. Looking the other way, or hoping very hard that it will go away by itself will most likely cause the problem to only get worse! (To me, the individual concerned appears to be a “weak” person. I won’t be surprised if he subconsciously blames his wife for the break-up with his “original” family. (There may be more to that “I hate you” than a temporary fit of drunken stupor.))

I am not sure if groups like the Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) are available in Saudi Arabia. If not, in my view, the wife’s best bet would be to deal with the problem head-on in the following way:

1) Get rid of the “shame” factor! It is clearly a case of chemical dependence, not an issue of how “good” or “bad” a person is. It is counterproductive to hide it, especially from those who may be in best position to help.

2) ONE of you needs to be strong enough for both of you! Get rid of all alcohol around the house. Don’t make it available, either to him or to visitors. (Remember, if it is present, it WILL get consumed.) Going “cold turkey” is the only realistic way to solve it!

3) Tell the children about the problem, exactly what it is, about the genetic origins of alcohol dependence, and their own important potential role in finding a resolution to it (by enforcing the “no alcohol” rule). You will be surprised at how resilient children can be. Besides, becoming potentially a part of the solution will make them feel so much better about themselves than being helpless onlookers as their respect (though not love, of course) for the head of the family goes down the drain (perhaps damaging them in the process).

4) Involve the support of all friends and extended family members (including perhaps his parents). Make them aware of his dependence on alcohol, and request, even insist that they do not provide him the opportunity to drink! If there are some who still let him have alcohol, they are not your well-wishers, and you must break up with them (tough thing to do, but some “tough love” is really needed here).

5) Make your husband aware that he needs to choose between his family and alcohol. You must mean it! If he still won’t kick the habit, you better come to grips with what he values more, and prepare and harden yourself for the inevitable that lies ahead (and trying to protect those who CAN be protected)!

Best of luck to you (you will definitely need it)!

Re: # 4

hp,

........ i agree with your statement that ``It is the middleclass morality that prohibits drinking or leads to prohibition. The upper and the lower classes live with that without any moral trepidation.``.......... but more than liquor, heroin use seems to be rampant among the lower economic classes - you cannot go ten steps in the bazar without running into a ``jahaz`` being jeered by street urchins and providing entertainment for bored shop keepers ................ empty plots and graveyards are littered with syringes and pannis .......... recently, on an after-dinner walk with my brother we passed by groups of men huddled in the dark corners of empty plots heaitng up their ``masala`` in pannis and spoons and then shooting up with old discarded syringes .........``tilyars``, my brother calls them - when you yell at them they jump up and take off like game birds ............. it is sad......... and now more and more you hear of drug addicition problems in the middle class as well ........

....... and you are right when you say that religion has added another dimension ......... when i was growing up liquor was freely available and the hardest drug available was good old charas (which we put to good use !).......... but even though there were a few quirky charsees and sloppy drunks around, i don`t recall anyone with a ``problem`` .......... then, with the rediscovery of islam, most of my middle class friends found religion in their middle age, stopped drinking, took to praying and started taking bribes .......... but it seems that the problem with addicition is much bigger today than ever, and prohibition has had absolutely no impact other than creating bigger profits for bootleggers, policemen and customs officials ........... oh, well............

HP:

Thank you for assisting me in distinguishing between your statement and your argument. I truly appreciate the chivalry.

In the context of this article, your bringing up her social or economic standing is quite irrelevant. In addition to that, your suggestions to Saman`s friend who has been in her marriage for over 10 years or so were simply in poor taste. I could have assumed that was reflective of a man`s (your, in this case) social standing, but I refrained from taking that path. With due respect, you were being obnoxious (without realizing).

Are you comfortable with your woman drinking with frequent intensity and passion? Would you be fine with her excessive drinking? Would you be comfortable with searching for her in the middle of the night, sleeping near an ATM machine, in a dead drunk mode? What would you say to your child when he/she looks for his/her mother? How would you explain the insane behavior of that mother? How long can you bear this kind of attitude? How long can you cope with tracking your `drunkard` spouse?

I had a close friend whose father had similar problems. She ended up developing very low self esteem.

No woman should live in such unhealthy relationship/condition. Often times, women internalize all the effects of their surrounding and as a result get sick. The guy in the picture can easily qualify for a schizophrenic. Obviously, he is not only a bad influence on his wife but is setting a very bad example for his children. Is that behavior symbolic of his social or economic status?

All the more reason, Saman`s friend needs to pick up the phone and call her close friends and family to build a support network for her own sanity. In order to save her marriage, she needs to actively seek for counseling and psychological help. In a suffocating country like SA, there ought to be millions of psychiatrists, with thriving practices. I think in this case, Saman`s friend is being unfair to herself and the wellbeing of her family. She needs to take action and should not remove herself from the picture.

Take Care,





Hamidm:

I have very little tolerance for men who take serious issues in a light stride.

This was just a prelude.

I want you to visit the 3rd passage of my post and see how easy or difficult it will be for you to accept that. I want you to place yourself in Saman`s friend`s shoes and be on the receiving side of that agony. You are welcome to share your sentiments and discoveries.

Thanks.

Zahra has made a very good point regarding double standards.There is one more aspect to this. Lets assume that the guy needs love etc. and alcohol consumption is okay.
But , how does the validity of alcohol consumption and puking all around the place be explained to young kids? Does not certain propreity need to be observed?
And whatever the ideal society needs to be as per #1, this is a fact that he is doing an act that will bring trauma to his children in society. Do you think that that person has basic decency to think about such things? He seems a very cold and heartless person to me. Its something like I like drinking so I will go for it, and I dont care what effect it has on my wife and kids.

Re: # 9

zahraji,

......... of course alcoholism and drug abuse is a serious problem for the parties involved, but it is not as big an issue as bad body odor for the bystanders ........

.......of course the man could always do worse by running off with the tableegi jamaat and leaving his wife and kids to fend for themselves - now at least he drags his drunken posterior home after a night out in the holy land ...........

......... personally, i would tell the bum to clean up his act or throw him out in the street ............ you asked if i would put up with a dipsomaniac wife?...... heck, no - i would throw out any woman for eating crackers in bed ! ............

Re: # 11

Hamidm:

In other words, if your beloved has been drinking and vomitting around, you will definitely love to clean up the mess and give her a comforting gentle hug. And you will clean up that mess with your own two hands since you do not believe in seeking for any cleaning service.

If you find your beloved having an all night drinking affair with one of her drinking buddies, you will just ask her to let you know on your cell.

Oh, not only that, if your teen-age daughter shows the desire to emulate her mother, you will graciously offer her a bottle of red wine on a silver tray. Wow!

You are indeed an exceptional human being a.k.a man. I wish there were more human beings(men) like you. Your wife must consider you a demi-god.

Out of curiosity, how long will you continue with these efforts?

Every day after coming back from work or only on the weekends?

I am sincerely impressed by your benevolence. Obviously, you are showing those sentiments, since your beloved decides to drag her drunken posterior home. Wow :)

Long live logic and rationality.
Down with double standards and hypocrisy.

Happy Dreaming the above scenarios!

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Re: # 12

zahraj,

.......... how the heck did you reach that conclusion ?........i didn`t say any of that ........ actually i said the exact opposite : ``i would tell the bum to clean up his act or throw him out in the street``.......... i have no patience for sloppy drunks - men or women ........

............ but i have nothing against drinking per se - there is nothing like a glass of fine merlot with your terderloin or a cold beer with your hot dog at the ball park on hot summer afternoon ......

...... and, by the way, teenagers have no business drinking - it is against the law ............

.......jeeeez ! ...... or as my kids would say- take a chill pill !

Re: # 14

Hamidm:

Your first post was not tackling the issue - you were being wishy washy. I needed to hear a firm response. Sorry for drawing an ugly and horrifying picture to get a firm response out of you.

[``i would tell the bum to clean up his act or throw him out in the street``]

I did not consider the above sufficient enough to value it.

I needed to read the following:

[i have no patience for sloppy drunks - men or women]

Thanks for continuing to refine your sentiments.

Good Job :)

#13
Think about this: even if there are double standards (or triple ones for that matter), what does it matter to the problem at hand?
The realization that what A expects from B(love and understanding of his behaviour) is not what A would let B get away with , if the roles were reversed. thereby highlighting that this is not an equitable solution to the issue, if indeed this is the solution.
In the task of problem solving, the narrower agendas of `double standards`, `world hunger` and `middle east violence` etc need to be shelved.
This is as arbitrary a statement if given without any reasoning as its negative statement, viz a viz , these agendas need not be shelved. The reason for the agenda of not having double standards comes from upholding the principle of equity; as I already have mentioned. We can discuss on why the solution needs to be equitable. Every solution has to cater to certain requirements.
BTW is not about `ideal society` BUT WHAT SHOULD PEOPLE DO GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES.
I agree.I reread your post and it seems that I imposed my views on it, which are, that the education you believe the women and children should get in terms of the solution of the problem depend a lot on societal values and norms, nothing that can be easily learned or unlearned as individuals.