The Dour Ascetic

Re: Farzana #88
“At the basic level, there is bound to be differentiating because it is alien, and the celebration of it becomes a clarion call for all kinds of insecurities -- when I say this it is applicable to all groups, minority and majority.”

It becomes a clarion call because other groups feel excluded, when we are able to celebrate our culture, faith etc. with others included this will not be a differentiating factor.

I am glad we agree on the shah bano case.

“In most societies the majority will have a greater stake and slice of the pie; what an effective opposition does is to let the smaller voices be heard with the understanding that they are indeed disadvantaged.”

The minority is not necessarily disadvantaged. Take the case of the Parsi’s or Christians in India, or for that matter of fact the Sikhs, the Jains, the Buddhists or any minority other than Muslims they are not disadvantaged in any way. In fact they manage to have their say most of the time.

I did not mention anything about UCC in my post, but I feel it will be good for the country.

Regards,

Faruk

cayenne

IMO, the assumption that a randomly drawn group of Muslims should have the same emotional/intellectual make-up as a randomly drawn group of other Indians is extremely unfair to Muslims.

As Hindus we may see ourselves as noble and generous people who do not ``discriminate.`` But we shouldn`t be surprised if the above-mentioned assumption appears to groups of Muslims as a cruel and arbitrary imposition by inconsiderate Hindus.

That is what Gandhi and Nehru never understood. This is what we find people still running away from.

Consider this: Had Gandhi and Nehru understood Islamic group sentiments better, both we Hindus and Muslims could have been MUCH further ahead already than we are now. I have no doubt the Chinese would have looked at us with the same awe with which at least some of us see them today.

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drlokraj

As I mentioned in # 97, majority and minority etc are not appropriate terms. To arrive at any resolution you will have to see the issues for what they are - multidimensional problems between Hindus and Muslims.

Again, everything in india is regional and local.Even food is influenced by the region, veg or non-veg.Religious fervor is more pronounced in gujarat than in other states with large muslim populations.That is why you see flare-ups occuring every so often.Meanwhile , Uttar Pradesh state has a large muslim population, and the last time religious discord was in the news, it was that a sunni group had attacked a shia group during a procession where they beat themselves up over a prophet who died a long time ago.(i`m not a religious person, so no offense anyone).The hindus just went about their business.Likewise, a tamil muslim reading the Gita is not news down there.The muslims there even have different rituals,mostly arabic,and not persian unlike those of north india and pakistan.Some regions or cities in india have majority muslim populations and yet the collector or some satrap will have a hindu name and life goes on.Muslims in india are a minority community relative to the larger hindu population, but then again, hindus in india are not one homogenous lot, so there is much that is open to debate on this topic!!.All i know is that my muslim friends are no less eager about their country than any of my other indian friends.That is why we are gaining stature and growing from strength to strength.The world is realizing that we are united, after all.

Some dissension exists, yes , but isn`t that a prerequisite for an open society?.I can understand a nagaland citizen of india questioning how he/she ended up in the indian union and support the freedom struggle started aginst the british continued now against indians.But a majority of Naga citizens support the indian union and that is enough to sustain integration.James Lyngdoh, a Nagaland indian, the last Chief Election Commissioner of India would take no crap from even the most powerful politician.He laid down the law as far as elections in India are concerned.The current occupant, a south indian from Chennai just carries on the tradition. There are those that will question, threaten and even disrupt the status quo, even through the democratic process.But have they been in India`s case, successful?.Aren`t we being talked about as a serious contender for a permanent seat at the UN Sec. Council?.I heard Condoleeza call us a ``global influence`` and a ``global factor`` all in the space of 30 seconds.And, there are those who will still deride our unity.

Its been enlightening discussion,trying to focuss on some very relevant contemporary themes,though some of the arguements do give the impression of being academic and theoretical.

The terms ``minority communalism`` and ``majority communalism``appear too dangerous to me,but the fact remains that in practical terms reactionary communalism is essentially a phenomenon displayed by minorities in multi-ethnic society.Majority communalism is like rape,i.e.``eaching a lesson``or ``stamping the authority which is in no way different than Hitler`s philosophy and modus operandi.This is bound to make minorites feel more insecure and alienated.

Majority communalism of this scale and ferocity is definitely a relatively newer phenomenon.When were Hindus so concerned about Ayodhaya before the infamous Rath Yatra? Because that worked at that time,some more disputes are being dug out now.I have seen P.N.Oak`s book on Taj Mahal being quoted now to claim that Taj is actually a Hindu structure,constructed by rajput rulers of Jaipur.This book was written in 50s and people had just laughed over it.One of the BJP MPs is going to court to claim Taj as Hindu property based on proofs given in that book.

Biggest problem for India is that the perpetrators of majority communalism have already tasted the power and have used it,though to a limited extent to further their agenda.Such use was restricted because of the presence of other parties in the coalition.
This was just experimental ,their effort is now going to be to come in power on their own.

I still believe that is not going to happen because still the majority in India is not communal and left has a big role to play in future.They have done a good job in keeping BJP away from the throne,even if they had to support congress or that.

dost-mittar, Farzana

The issues you have highlighted are the dominant concerns of Hindus and Muslims and, to a far less extent, of Hindus and Christians.

Dragging in other minorities, for whom the dominant issues are very different, moves the focus away from these relevant sets of relationships.

That will make all analysis and searching for solutions next to impossible.

So, IMO, you may want to avoid using the terms ``majority`` and ``minority,`` and speak here directly of ``Hindu and Muslim.``

Dost-Mittar ji, as a scientist, would you agree that by grouping very different units together we are not doing the truth any service?

[`truth` here defined only in the `statistical` sense that you know so well]

Dear Farzana#88:

First of all, it is refreshing to see a civilized dialogue taking place here with none of the personal abuse that you have to face too frequently on your boards. Hope people will continue to do that. Now to your points.

``Majority communalism in India (as opposed to good old pugnaciousness) is a fairly recent phenomenon in its resurgent frenzy. Therefore, it is not a response to other communal identities. An ancient culture and heritage shared by 80 per cent of the population cannot be in danger due to minor identities.``

I do agree that India is somewhat unique where the majority sometimes displays a minority syndrome. I can`t say whether it is due to the recent history of the partition or to the more distant history, but this is a fact that is hard to deny.

But majority communalism is not new in India. Even the RSS is 80 years old and, lest it be forgotten, it was formed by a former congressman as a reaction against Mopla riots and the congress support of the khilafat movement (Jinnah was not the only one to leave in protest!). More to the point, it has always existed within the Congress and still does. This is why, while I celebrated the defeat of the BJP, I never equated it with the defeat of the hindutva. But I wont call it a ``resurgent frenzy`` now, that is more an episodic occurence, such as Ayodhya and Gujarat provoked by politicians to meet their ends.

``I also take issue with the use of the term `tolerance` in this context. For, any incident can be seen as communal to subjugate a people. Forget the largest minority...would one place missionary activity in the category of communalism? Yet, there have been incidents of a backlash. The excuse: conversions.``

Several issues in that short para. I do not oppose missionary activities, but I also believe that the RSS has the same right as Chrisitan missionaries. In fact, I support this competitive activity, as long as it is not violent. As a social scientist, I would be very much interested to learn the extent to which this competitive activity has expedited the provision of basic health and literacy to the people whom the government had neglected. Conversion, too, is a basic right guaranteed by the constitution and should also be covered by fundamental human rights, if it doesn`t (and please nobody bring in Saudi Arabia here!). But I also believe that mass conversion is not an act of faith but a political act and nobody should complain if it induces a political reaction.

Finally, I agree with cayenne`s post that there will always be communal elements in every community and political parties ready to cater to that constituency, but when a group starts to, or more importantly perceive to, act en bloc wrt the other, the situation is ripe for someone to provoke the majority to do the same. And that is the first step towards fascism.

re: cayenne # 94, HP # 92-93

Interesting points. Hope others will join in so we can have a richer dialogue.

The specific concern is how Hindus - defined as the ``majority`` - should approach the ``minority issue.``

Within that broad area, we had focused on the following related questions:

1) Is it fair to put Muslims in the same category of `minorities` as Jains, Buddhists, and Sikhs (and Arya Samajis or anybody else who is non Hindu in India)? Should a Hindu see a Muslim as the same kind of ``other`` as he or she should a Jain?

2) What mistakes did Gandhi and Nehru make in managing their relationships with the Muslims? Why did they make those mistakes? Did they ignore the signals that their approach was not working? Why did they persist in ignoring those signals?

Contrary to popular perception islam came to india`s south western coast through the arab spice trade, long before the ghazni`s et al decided to hoof it across the northwest.Islam in India is as varied as its` peoples.Same for hinduism.Hinduism in India is very polyglot and multifacted.The aim of the hindutva folks is to unify these disparate forces of hinduism into one big voting block, just as the muslims try to with their political groupings.Excellent in theory, but flawed it will be in execution.Yet, we will see small blocks of hindus and other indians like sikhs , buddhists who will try to influence their community by offering an unified platform.We cannot avoid them, whether we like them or not, as we are a democracy.Everyone has to have a voice.But, the mainstream parties will continue to hold sway as indians always vote accroding to their regional and local platforms, and not on the religion platform.A minority does, and that`s how it will always be.

#58 by Mantolives

“Also, despite all its flaws, Hindutva can`t be compared to Islamic fundamentalism... because Hindutva is simply politicization of Hindu identity ... and not an attempt to create a theocracy.”

If your interest in this issue is academic, then you really need to study up on this issue. Hindutva is not just politicization of Indian society but it is a full throttle effort to turn India in to theocratic state. There really is no difference in RSS and Jamaat Islami in terms of their religious ideal. RSS portrays Hindu as a religion and it is fighting for the supremacy of the religion and Hindutva is just a cover to bring all Hindu under the same umbrella against supposedly other religious entities that don’t conform with Hindu religious view of the Indian society.

#90 by kaalchakra
“If liberals are determined to blindly adhere to the views and rhetorics of Gandhi and Nehru”

kaalchakra,
I think your arguments rest on your own misconstured rhetoric. Gandhi was not liberal in any sense of the word. His political symbolism heavily depended on his total commitment to his religious foundation. I have not seen any thing that he wrote or said that can in anyway be construed to be liberal or anti religion if that is the way you wanna compare the two differing political philosophies in the Indian context. The only difference was that Gandhi was not out to make India a religious state. Even if he wanted to, Nehru and socialist influence on the Indian freedom struggle and on Indian National Congress kept him from forcing his personal beliefs. But again, there is nothing to prove that he shunned his religious faith or at anytime actively supported liberal or socialist causes in India. The difference between his (Gandhi) religiosity and the current rise of fundamentalism in the Indian society is deep but that does not make Gandhi a liberal.

In the absence of a true debate between liberalism and Conservatives, in the Indian (or Pakistani) society, the religious fanatics are faking as conservatives. They will continue to define liberalism as Anti religion. Their attacks on Secularism are also based on their belief that Secularists and liberals are the same species.
A conservative in general is also a supporter of secularism as secular ideals don’t conflict with conservative ideals.
The struggle in India is between the religious fanatics and people who don’t believe that the religion should be the central part of the country’s political ideals. To win this battle, the religious fanatics would continue to malign the opposition in different ways. It is up to Indian intellectuals to buy religious fanatic’s odds and ends or pay attention to the benefits of continuing with the secularism or at least non interference of religion in the state affairs in the current world.
What Gandhi and Nehru did some sixty-seventy odd years ago is only brought up in a discussion when religious fanatics run out of legit arguments to support their view of the Indian society.

#90 good post kaal
vision if nehru and gandhi gave us partition holocaust and (no less painful) more sustained economic stagnation. so there must be something wrong in the vision.

We claim that Nehru and Gandhi are dead. That we as a nation have moved on. That we have matured enough to recognize that these great men did not know or understand everything related to the Indian subcontinent. For thousands of years we KNOWN that there can be no such final prophet. That`s why, in our view, civilizations must learn over time.

But have we really moved even an inch? We are still making Gandhi`s and Nehru`s arguments, and don`t look beyond their rhetoric in matters of Hindu-Muslim relations.

Are we intent on repeating the mistakes these gentlemen made in managing these relations?

I hope not. Liberals who share the peaceful ideals of Nehru and Gandhi must understand why these gentlemen acted so unwisely and so incoherently in managing this relationship?

What assumptions did the two consistently make? What hopes/dreams lay behind their assumptions? Why did they keep thinking they were right? Did they receive sufficient and repeated warning signals and did they ignore them? Why?

If liberals are determined to blindly adhere to the views and rhetorics of Gandhi and Nehru, then can they expect any Hindu-Muslim results different than theirs? Won`t that be everybody`s loss?

Re: # 88

``Re. the UCC, it will have to be sweeping; the majority communities too will lose out. It is time for it, but why did the BJP government not start the process? Were they looking for minority approval? I think not. ``

Because they didn`t have a complete majority. They were in a coalition. The ``secular`` coalition partners didn`t want to antagonise muslims. Are you really that ignorant?

dost-mittarji (#75):

[While I am convinced that Hindu communalism is a greater danger to India than minority communalism, I am also convinced that it will survive as long as other communal identities do. A tolerance of minority communalism will inevitably lead to a backlash as there will always be an Advani or a Modi to lead a backlash as long as conditions for it exist.]

Majority communalism in India (as opposed to good old pugnaciousness) is a fairly recent phenomenon in its resurgent frenzy. Therefore, it is not a response to other communal identities. An ancient culture and heritage shared by 80 per cent of the population cannot be in danger due to minor identities.

I also take issue with the use of the term `tolerance` in this context. For, any incident can be seen as communal to subjugate a people. Forget the largest minority...would one place missionary activity in the category of communalism? Yet, there have been incidents of a backlash. The excuse: conversions.

It would be ideal with religius groups ceased to have political identities, but then there would be regional, linguistic and other groups...so an ideal state is a chimera....I suppose anywhere in the world.
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Faruk(#79):

[There is a big difference between celebrating your culture, your faith, your heritage and differentiating against others on that basis. The latter is communalism the former is not.]

At the basic level, there is bound to be differentiating because it is alien, and the celebration of it becomes a clarion call for all kinds of insecurities -- when I say this it is applicable to all groups, minority and majority.

I agree with you about Shahbano; it was a total cop-out, but why blame the leftists? I do not agree that the Left looks the other way at the antics of smaller groups, and here I am restricting myself to religious groups. In most societies the majority will have a greater stake and slice of the pie; what an effective opposition does is to let the smaller voices be heard with the understanding that they are indeed disadvantaged. I have not heard of any Left commentator patting SIMI on the back.

Re. the UCC, it will have to be sweeping; the majority communities too will lose out. It is time for it, but why did the BJP government not start the process? Were they looking for minority approval? I think not.
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Anil (#71):

It is a large subject and perhaps not quite the place for it. I will try and pen some thoughts and put it up in my private space some time later.

- -

This board might be out soon...

Regards

Jeez, are we still taking the bait of vicious individuals who like to heckle and provoke us , or are we going to put an end to this nonsense by behaving like indians?.Do we have to descend to their level?.I think not.

MaheshG2

Look, we are humanizing the ``soil,`` ``the country`` and such things. I am all for doing that, so long as we do it with our eyes open. This kind of thinking may not fit into everybody`s worldview. We shouldn`t pretend that it does.

kaalchakra:

``than by trying to turn everyone into a Hindu.``

...where did that come from?

kaalchakra, that is what is D-M saying. People don`t have to be Hindu to be a son of the soil.

Anyway, I don`t agree with Hindutva.

dost-mittar

``from an Indian perspective, nobody is `the Other`; all are sons of the same soil.``

Depending on the context ``sons of the same soil`` can be a very empty phrase.

Why do we believe that we can create a better world by running away from reality? IMO, we can forge a safer, more peaceful coexistence for everybody by being realistic, than by trying to turn everyone into a Hindu.

kaalchakra:

It depends upon whose perspective one is looking at. From the hindutva perspective, sikhs are not ``the Other``. But from an Indian perspective, nobody is `the Other`; all are sons of the same soil.

Re: # 70


``If religion is not the basis of Hindutva, then why are other communities always portrayed as the Other?``
``Others`` are those who owe their allegiance to someone other than the motherland. Hindutva doesn`t consider Jians, Buddhists, Sikhs as others. Even Christians are fine as long as they don`t start missionary activities, but the muslims are the usual suspect, thats nothing new is all over the world.

``Advani said recently that his one regret is that he could not build the Ram temple at Ayodhya; he is not talking about the hospitals and educational institutes that could not be built. ``

How many hospitals and educaitonal institutes/year have been made during non-BJP rule? or in non-BJP states like bengal? Is there is a significant difference? You are comparing apples to oranges. Did you hear Laloo regreting that he could not build hospitals in Bihar or Sonia putting her energies in building educational institutes rather than manipulating Goa/Jharkhand. BJP rode to power/created a mass base because of temple movement, hence there is nothing wrong in his statement(whether for real or for PR).

``The leftist is against majority communalism, ``

lndian leftists are against hindu/native customs/traditions. Do leftists even believe in religion that they will tolerate securalism? why aren`t they against minority communalism? Or is it they it doesn`t happen?

``which is how secularism as a political entity functions -- to prevent a large group from holding sway and gagging any voice other than its own.``

Wrong. Secularism doesn`t allow a state to interfere in the religious matters of its subjects. It stays neutral. In democracy the majority does gag the minority voice (through the ballots) hence you see several governments implementing policies just to keep the majority happy, even if they are disastrous.

dost-mittar

Not to get distracted, my specific objection is to the misuse of the term `minority` by mixing it with the term `other.` If we give the word `other` its connotative meaning, then `minority other` should not be used to hide Hindu-Semitist otherhood.

This otherhood cannot be managed, let alone removed, by mixing it up with simple political otherness of let`s say liberal and conservatives. These situations have nothing in common. So let`s not confuse them.

Re : Farzana #70
“So, if gay rights are tolerated, should we accept that homophobia is bound to happen? “

I don’t agree with your analogy. I look at homophobia as communalism against the gay community. The point I was trying to make is that minority communalism is just as bad as majority communalism.

”I think we should see communalism as two aspects -- a communal identity and a herd mentality, sometimes misused. When does one communalism lead to another? That is a question worth thinking about.”

There is a big difference between celebrating your culture, your faith, your heritage and differentiating against others on that basis. The latter is communalism the former is not.

”The leftist is against majority communalism, which is how secularism as a political entity functions -- to prevent a large group from holding sway and gagging any voice other than its own.”

That is how secularism is defined by the leftist/socialists. It’s wrong, it’s not the way our constitution describes it and it’s a misguided view of secularism. Preventing a larger group from gagging a smaller group is fine, but tolerating all the antic’s of all smaller groups is not secularism.

The shah bano case is a good example, a small vocal group, a minority within a minority managed to force the Indian govt. to amend the Indian constitution to deprive Muslim women of their right to alimony. That is secularism according to the leftist/socialist not according to me.

Lets take another example, the French have banned all forms of religious identity from public schools. The majority Christians cannot wear the cross, the Muslims cannot wear hijab and the Jews cannot wear the scull cap. This in my opinion is taking the concept of an uniform too far but its applied across the board. It would be wrong to ask the majority Christians to leave their cross at home but make allowances for the Jewish & Muslim minority. That is what the leftist do in India.

Regards,

Faruk

dost-mittar

Except in the most trivial sense, being the ``other` is not the same as having a political identity.

kaalchakra#76

Sikhs do have a political identity; it is Christians who do not insist upon a political identity, and have benefitted from that. The result is that there are now 5-6 christian chief ministers, mostly where they are a minority.

Face facts. Then deal with them reasonably.

There are minorities, but there is no ``minority other`` in India.

It`s Hindu other and Muslim other.

It`s Hindu other and Christian other.

Essentially, it is Hindu other-Semitist other.

There is no minority `problem.` It is the `problem` of Muslims and Christians.

---

Even dumping Sikhs among the same category as Christian and Muslims is unwise. Issues are very different.

---

``I am convinced that Hindu communalism is a greater danger to India than minority communalism`` -- No comment for now.

Dear Farzana#70:

I agree with your post generally.

`` If religion is not the basis of Hindutva, then why are other communities always portrayed as the Other?``

Of course, religious identity (not religion) is the basis of Hindutva, and, yes, it is against ``the Other``, which is why I said its motives are suspect.

The ideal recipe for Indians would be to follow Jinnah`s famous advice to Pakistanis, namely, for Hindus to cease (politically) being Hindus and Muslims to be Muslims and just become Indians. But that can happen only if Muslims, Sikhs, etc. also cease to think of themselves as political entities (in my opinion, Christians already do so).

While I am convinced that Hindu communalism is a greater danger to India than minority communalism, I am also convinced that it will survive as long as other communal identities do. A tolerance of minority communalism will inevitably lead to a backlash as there will always be an Advani or a Modi to lead a backlash as long as conditions for it exist.

#73 by FarzanaVersey on April 15, 2005 1:37am PT
Re: # 72:

we seem like benign creatures before their vintage venom.


We???...If you were an adult when you interviewed desai way back in the days ye must be ancient now, was my train of thought.But, who cares??.One is as young as one thinks one is.I am eyeing the very same `nimbu paani` and i shall fan myself to escape the heat and dust of Bharat and get some beauty sleep.Slaap goed.

Re: # 72:

This really cracked me up, so before I can settle into the sultry somnambulence of the afternoon of the afternoon and tend to my...creaking knees...let me just say that I did not interview Desai NOW; by your logic I ought to be dead and conducting ghostly conversations. Besides, do check out the 18-20 year olds who rake up the past with such vigour (oh, how lovely to spit-polish that piece of antique!)...we seem like benign creatures before their vintage venom.

Re. the gay point, it is called an analogy. Not to be taken literally.

Hope YOU have something better to do...we are just eyeing that nimbu-paani...

#70 by FarzanaVersey on April 15, 2005 0:20am PT
So, if gay rights are tolerated, should we accept that homophobia is bound to happen?


......So if it does, it does!!!.Let us deal with it like everything else we have dealt with.Didn`t we overcome or working on overcoming socialism, Indira is india/India is indira, sikh extremism, muslim alienation,economic and social inequality and traitors of all kinds. We will overcome and survive.Infact, we have.The world is acknowledging us even before we`re fully there.God, you must be old!!!.Interviewing Desai!!!.I don`t mean to be offensive.But there are many old people on this site who have nothing better to do than to rake up the past , it seems!!!!.

Re: # 70
Dear Farzana:

I had often wondered and wanted to ask how a writer, journalist and a artist like you would define ``Your India``, and hence the question. Thanks for the link. Would you not say that there is more to ``Your India`` ?

Anil

dost-mittarji (#62):

[The real danger from hindutva is not religious bigotry but fascism.]

What if religious bigotry is fascistic? If religion is not the basis of Hindutva, then why are other communities always portrayed as the Other? Its political sanctity rests almost entirely on its religious credo. Advani said recently that his one regret is that he could not build the Ram temple at Ayodhya; he is not talking about the hospitals and educational institutes that could not be built.
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Faruk (#63):

[If minority communalism is tolerated majority communalism is bound to happen. I don’t see the leftist as non communal, just against majority communalism.]

So, if gay rights are tolerated, should we accept that homophobia is bound to happen?

I think we should see communalism as two aspects -- a communal identity and a herd mentality, sometimes misused. When does one communalism lead to another? That is a question worth thinking about.

The leftist is against majority communalism, which is how secularism as a political entity functions -- to prevent a large group from holding sway and gagging any voice other than its own.
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#57 by anil:

[How would you define... ``Your India``...?]

I am surprised by this question, since I have not used the phrase either in the article or my interacts. Wonder why you asked.

But, here`s a plug! For the answer perhaps you could go to http://www.chowk.com/show_exhibition_home_page.cgi?exid=150&start=0&end=4&chapter=1&page=1

#67 by kaalchakra
[But it was his MANNER that scared me. There was no doubt in my mind that if he were given a free hand, the guy could turn any crowd into a frenzied mob ...]

Indeed, Modi is a skilful orator and the venom in his words is enough to whip up communal frenzy in even a sane mob. He chooses his words very carefully and every word drips with hatred for his opponents. But hopefully, the rate at which skeletons are tumbling out of his cupboard, like the recent revelation that he had instructed the Police Chief to keep track of his opponents` telephones will be enough to cut him down to size.

Modi and those who share his views, the sikh separatists, the naxals,RSS et alia are no different from one another.They are all extremist elements in indian society.The BJP is similar to the republican party in the US.Just as the GOP has extremist religious and fascist elements, so too does the BJP.Yet the majority of the BJP cadre are secular.One of the BJP general secretary`s by the name of Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi is too lead a BJP group to pakistan next month.The Congress is similar to the Democratic party.Full of woolly liberals and limosine effetes.The leftists are filled to the brim with some of the most educated , elite and intellectual minds of India.What a paradox indian politics is.

The majority of indians are secular and believe in the country.If not, how can we be counted among the top nations of the world noted for everything from arts/entertainment to science, technology and intellectual property?.But . then again if not for the Modi`s , the SGPC`s , the RSS et alia, the people will slide into their regional niches and forget about the nation.These people keep us on our toes.As for Modi, onc the people of Gujarat, both hindu and muslim, realize that he`s an embarassment and will hurt them in their pockets(foreign investment into gujarat), they will kick him out.This was propounded by my neighbor , a gujarati muslim by the name of Amin.

As for interact #61, the rewrite should be....inspite of this hideousness, india is where it is and still moving ahead.That(the inane religious practices) is where we came from.It still lingers.These villagers would never have left their areas and visited a big town or city.They are usually in awe when they do.There are many layers to india, something that adds to the world`s fascination with us.

dost-mittar

I have had only one good look at Modi, on TV. He was giving a speech. I don`t even know what he was saying.

But it was his MANNER that scared me. There was no doubt in my mind that if he were given a free hand, the guy could turn any crowd into a frenzied mob ...

That`s not religion at all.

My interest in the issue is academic... I don`t agree with the conclusions being drawn...

Re: # 64

hindutva was first coined by Savarker, I would say it is Hindu Nationalism.

Can somebody explain what exactly hidutva is?I have heard this term only after BJP came into power at the centre and organizations like VHP,Bajrang Dal,Shiv Sena became visible on the Indian scene and the oldest organization(RSS) became much more powerful.Hindus never had exclusive political representation and neither did they strive for it en masse.BJP is not exclusively Hindu Party and is hardly different from congress in its political agenda.

re : dost-mittar# 62 , YLH # 58, guju # 56
You are all right. If minority communalism is tolerated majority communalism is bound to happen. I don’t see the leftist as non communal, just against majority communalism.

Faruk

Manto#58
...Right on! The real danger from hindutva is not religious bigotry but fascism. I am really scared of Modi. If he is really as efficient as his supporters claim, he could be a budding Hitler. The tragedy is that those who are fighting him are clueless leftists. As long as `combating communalism` in India is a euphemism for fighting Hindu communalism alone they are playing into the hands of Modi and his supporters.

What a frikking shame this India is becoming ....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1077644.cms
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/04/14/india.burials.reut/index.html

re: Mantolives # 58

Amazing.

And to imagine that Indian leftists haven`t a clue.

Re: # 58

The only real comparison Hindutva has is with Zionism....

Re: # 56

I actually agree with this post of yours .... Hindutva indeed does not discriminate on the basis of caste or casteism... and is radically egalitarian. Just one of the many nuances that people on both sides fail to take into account.

Also, despite all its flaws, Hindutva can`t be compared to Islamic fundamentalism... because Hindutva is simply politicization of Hindu identity ... and not an attempt to create a theocracy.

Dear Farzana:

How would you define... ``Your India``...?

Anil

I have made the same point as dost-mittar many times before ....it is a major misconception that hindutva discriminates against dalits, tribals and other lower caste hindus. On the contrary hindutva stands for the abolition of the caste system and unification of hindus of all caste and creed as one single block. Conventional hinduism may perpetuate caste prejudices...but Hindutva stands for unity of all hindus against one (or two) common enemy - the muslim (and the missionary).

That is why the most of the leaders of the hindutva movement are backward caste hindus. Advani is a casteless sindhi. Narendra Modi is a lower caste hindu. BJP rules 5 states in India. The BJP chief ministers of 4 major states - Gujarat , Madhya Pradesh , Jharkand and Chattisgarh ..are all lower caste hindus. Uma Bharti is a lower caste hindu. Most of the kar sevaks who demolished that illegal babri masjid thing were poor lower caste hindu villagers. Most RSS members /cadre are tribals /dalits /lower caste hindus. The Gujarathis who did the actual fighting , killing and raping of muslims in the post-Godhra riots were tribals and dalits.

The major support to BJP comes from middle caste and backward caste hindus. Traders , farmers and government employees.

This is only natural because upper caste hindus don`t really have a future in India and have no intention of staying on either. Brahmins only constitute 2-3% of India`s population and their representation in the government/bureaucracy/PSUs is today minimal. Brahmins are extinct in rural India. Most brahmins are like Harimau Iyer. Angry and disillusioned with India. Brahmins are the jews of India. A minority which is persecuted and yet demonised by the majority. Most have left India or wish to leave India.

So for any political party to have realistic ambitions of ruling India - which BJP has , or for an organisation like the RSS to be seen as a major force in India , it must have a significant following among the lower caste hindus.

Farzana#44; drlokraj:

``Re. your post #37, I am surprised…

[I have to say one thing in favour of the chaddi-wallahs. Their motives may be suspect, but it is only they who have been trying to unite Hindus of all castes.]

In what manner?``

Politically, of course!

And the credit goes indirectly to VP and Tau Devi Lal. Jan Sangh/BJP was a mostly brahmin-bania party until the eighties, in fact a petty brahmin-bania party, as the high brahmins (intellectuals) and high banias (industrialists) were not with them. Then came Devi Lal`s threat to VP`s govt. when he was refusing to play second fiddle to his boss, VP, and playing up his jaat card. To counter him, VP, resurrected the Mandal commission`s recommendations of extending reservations to OBCs, which adversely affected BJP`s voter base. BJP could not openly oppose Mandal because all parties had accepted it in theory and agreed to keep it in cold storage. But when VP resurrected it, BJP was afraid of losing its support base and brought out its famous `kamandal`, in other words the issue of Ram mandir, which it correctly calculated will have the support of hindus across all castes, especially after the hugely successful Ramayan serial. The rest, as they say, is history.

I have also read, mostly by RSS detractors, that it is doing quite a bit of missionary work among dalits and in the tribal areas in an attempt to stop them from converting to Christianity. As opposed to them, the leftists are merely telling dalits how cruel upper caste Hindus have been to them, without making any attempt to heal their wounds or to exhort upper caste Hindus to treat them with dignity and respect and as equals.

Insightful.. It often surprises me how people can wear a mask of self purported self-righteousness..we all do. But I totally agree that fitting other peoples ideologies in your own mould can be one hell of a task.

And Morarji Desai who ? Narendra Modi for prime minister !!

By the way ...Modi believes in the therapeutic value of muslim blood ....

Haha...been away for a week and what do I see ? Same old middle aged gents (one of them with a Hacked Penis ) behaving as usual like filthy mouthed street urchins.....

#50 by HP on April 12, 2005 11:32pm PT
I am just afraid that some of those Hindutva diehards would bring that stuff here in the US and stink up subways, Buses, trains and airplanes.


......Who are you trying to impress?.The subways in the US are as stinky if not stinkier than anything in my country.And it is only the major metros in the US that have subways.One can see bums with sores on their backs, urine in every wall corner and garbage all over the platforms in the US.Kolkata`s subway system is cleaner than newyork`s and delhi`s metro has more modern trains than newyork`s crappy 30 year old tin cans.OH, i forgot, you`re from pakistan.Any place is better than where you come from.Sorry, i won`t say anything more.

#44 by FarzanaVersey

“What were you drinking when you read this??”

My usual Golden stuff from Scotland!

Surprisingly, either you missed my question or your intentions were noble to start with or may be I was in “Deep Thoughts”.
Often I glance thru the Indian papers on the net. Mr. Desai was not really mentioned prominently in any publication. Here on Chowk, Ms. Versey decided to remember some occasion of his life (Birthday/Death who cares). Am I not right in thinking that may be posting of the lost interview has something to do with the new BJP/RSS business venture?
You see, sometimes it is not the content but the drive behind the content that is important.

I really have never looked at the chemical properties of Cow or human urine to really know what the differences are, but I do know that Mr. Desai loved one of the two and now our buddies at the RSS/BJP are just following the lead to raise elections funds for the next round to ensure Hindutva supremacy by using the most precious item one can release without disturbing the ecological balance.

I heard that sales are brisk and pretty much all RSS/BJP followers and the promoters of Hindutva are queuing up to buy the items to put that on their faces. You see the vote count would be so easy now. All you have to do is smell the RSS/BJP follower from the distance to know that the guy is wearing the right aftershave and is doused in the right cologne extracted from the sacred potion made popular by the old forgotten Morar Ji Desai!

I am just afraid that some of those Hindutva diehards would bring that stuff here in the US and stink up subways, Buses, trains and airplanes.
I mean their sense of humor is really macabre!

Moraji also imposed prohibition as a Chief Minister of the then Bombay state. My dad was posted in Bombay in those days. As his story goes their Commanding Officer got the officers together in the Mess in the evening and informed them that prohibition was going to be imposed the next day and any stock left would have to be discarded. Then he made the statement ``Gentlemen the booze must finish tonight``. It was good to learn that the young officers were equal to the task.

corrections #47

``BJP didn`t gave lip service`` to `` BJP just gave BJP lip service``

``You don`t mention about leaving caste-based politics, reservation in private sector behind.`` to ``You don`t mention about leaving reservation in private sector behind.

Re: # 22

``Anyway the only people who complain about reservations are people like you, who do not have the brains to compete and succeed on your own, so you want to blame others. It is like the white trash in the US that keeps attacking affirmative action for their problems. ``

You are wrong. People complain because undeserving/unqualified students get admissions/jobs. In south the situation is very bad, upto 60% reservation. Also, I wonder whether affirmative action means 40-60 % reservation.

``If the BJP had focused 100% on economy instead of temples and mosques, it would still be in power today.``

As far as I remember, BJP didn`t gave lip service to Temple issue in last years elections. You may accuse them of exaggerating the feel good factor but not about non-development. Congress motto was ``aam aadmi`` and you should know what it means. Its back to ``garibi hatao``. Also, hte left parties ended up winning the most number of seats. Do you think they better suited to bring in the economic miracle?

``What you really want are low profile, smart leaders who unleash the economy, leave religious stuff alone for the next 50 years and let the ordinary people of India chart the destiny of the country. ``

You don`t mention about leaving caste-based politics, reservation in private sector behind. Is it deliberate?

Ferzana, as a mumbaichi, do you know what morarji is famous for? For Hutatma Chowk (Flora Fountain). He is famous for ordering firing on agitators asking for maharashtra state. this got flora fountain renamed as hutatma chowk.

i was expecting a scathing article criticising a religious icon and chief of a successful franchise who recently passed away.

Thanks for keeping the discussion alive and the comments…

I am aware that Morarji Desai may not be the most fascinating individual around, and I appreciate the attempts to pep up this board, but can we go slow on the personal attacks please? After reading some of the posts, it seems that drinking urine is infinitely more desirable than fighting over the merits of coffee and tea to spew parochial venom.

Re. urine therapy, whatever be one’s feelings towards its use, those interested may like to run a search engine and find a there are several theories that do talk about its efficacy. It is true that Desai went to town about it and it does not quite behove a person of his stature to do so. But personal foibles have always humanised people in power. So, what gave way here? It is just that he wasn’t skilled in marketing his ideas well.

Incidentally, the store that has opened in the BJP headquarters selling shampoo, soap, and other unguents, is made from cow urine, not human piss.

And Desai did not use his religion to justify this practice. Gandhi would have.
- - -
HP:

What were you drinking when you read this?? The first sentence itself mentions his death anniversary; I did not “single out this guy out of the blue celebrate his birthday”. Unless, we are seeing things metaphysically, as in death is in fact birth!

I had interviewed him, he is a part of contemporary history, and I thought it would give a glimpse into one that.
- - -
dost-mittarji:

[You have a way of confounding those who like to put you in pre-labelled boxes.]

My intentions are honourable. Honest! I agree with most of what you said.

Re. your post #37, I am surprised…

[I have to say one thing in favour of the chaddi-wallahs. Their motives may be suspect, but it is only they who have been trying to unite Hindus of all castes.]

In what manner?
- - -
BeeJay:

Perceptive post (#3):

You are not quite right in thinking of him as being seen as a regional politician, because in 1964 and 1966, he was in the running for the premiership. Except for Sharad Pawar today, one does not see this happening with regional leaders. There was also an idealism associated with the formation of the Janata Party, and his being imprisoned during the Emergency gave him some more legitimacy.

[[Morarji Desai was living in the Mahatma-created bubble called Truth.]
Unfortunately, the bubble was mostly an insulator and the “truth” was on the outside.]

Facts are on the outside; truth is usually internalised and therefore in an ideal situation accepts that it is relative. The bubble-Truth tends to be absolute.

[Are there any instances of when the man LOST over the sage?]

Forced abstinence is an example, although it may not be ‘sagacious’.

[There is a huge difference between titles formally conferred versus terms of affection/reverence that come into being spontaneously! Only the former would be considered a “reward”, the latter simply verbalizes a need of OURS!]

Would you be flattered by a term of endearment? Then that is your reward and also verbalises another’s need to express it!

[(By the way, you weren’t offered any “beverages” during your interview, were you?)]

As a matter of policy, I do not drink when I am in the driver’s seat…
- - -

#25 by prakasam:

Roy? Shucks, if it is you, then this is a pleasant surprise. I guess you have lost my numbers! Want to touch base? farzanavee@chowk.com

``The typical attitude of leftists, including congress leaders, in India has been to denounce caste system and even denounce the hindu society for it, but to use the caste divisions for staying in power instead of taking any concrete steps to end those divisions. ``


I always wonder why it is not ``communal`` to divide the society based on caste ? Can you believe it , that sh!thead VP Singh is the apple of the secular eyes!

Re: # 37
dost-mittar ji even you are only partly right here.Its true that congress has been using caste divisions to its own advantage and used reservations etc. just to create vote banks.
But I dont understand why you accuse left of the same thing and how BJP brought all sections of hindus together and what have they and RSS/VHP have done to end casteism?
In fact even BJP`s allies,(Akalis)the so called representatives of Sikhs,SGPC and their nominated Jathedaars of five takhts have not done anything against casteism.All castes have different gurudwaras in villages and cities of Punjab which is against the basic principles of Sikhism.

I don`t know much about ``Morarji desai`` except that he was an ex-PM and drank his own liquid stuff.. But why was he awarded the top honour from Pakistan??.. sounds suspicious to me.. pakistan is one country that never had anything positive to offer to india..

Desai is my favorite Indian, of course only second to Modi Bhai.

Amit,
Just read what you have written. Harimau had not abused you but had attacked your political views. You on the other hand have been abusive as well attacked his region and his caste. Are you gettig personal because you dont have the stuff to challenge him?

HP,
``Here was a strange man who worked all his life following in Gandhi ji footstep and in the end just outshone Gandhi Ji by pioneering something so much in tune with Indian culture that beat Gandhi’s ahnsa or non violence philosophy hands down.. Gandhi talked about something that wasn’t part of the Indian culture. ``

Not true, ahimsa has long been preached in India, including by Budha and Mahavira.

amit#30:

``My disagreement with the right wing in India is that their focus is on the wrong issue i.e. religion. I believe that their focus should be on economics and free markets, while leaving religion and caste issues aside for the foreseeable future.``

I think that you are only partly right there. The BJP did not start the caste issue, V.P.Singh did. I have to say one thing in favour of the chaddi-wallahs. Their motives may be suspect, but it is only they who have been trying to unite Hindus of all castes. The typical attitude of leftists, including congress leaders, in India has been to denounce caste system and even denounce the hindu society for it, but to use the caste divisions for staying in power instead of taking any concrete steps to end those divisions.

Dear Farzana:

You have a way of confounding those who like to put you in pre-labelled boxes.

I agree with BeeJay`s comments on Morarji.
He was a follower of Patel and a rightist in Nehru`s India, which meant that he could never be his favourite. At the same time, his formidable strengths as an administrator and his sacrifices during the freedom struggle meant that he could not be openly ignored. When the Kamraj Plan of the ``voluntary`` resignation of the entire cabinet was announced, it was generally thought to be Nehru`s dirty trick to ``get`` Morarji. Almost everyone,except Morarji, was later reinstated. His incorruptibility and efficiency should have made him a darling of the middle class, but his fetishes, especially his imposition of prohibition in Bombay lost him that natural constituency. Morarji and Gandhi justified their celibacy to their religion, although I have never been able to find any reference in the Hindu literature to the celibacy during grhasth-ashram, which is indeed a sort of cruelty to one`s wife.
One wonders how could Gandhi get away with his eccentricities but Morarji did not. I think that the answer lies in Morarji`s in-your-face arrogance and self-righteousness. One has to admit that he was right more often than wrong. He opposed the dismemberment of Pakistan, which was not only immoral but also a short-term gain for a long-term pain. At the same time, he rendered the Pakistani diplomat who complained about the plight of Muslims in India by asking him whether he would like India to solve its Muslim problem in the same way as his country had solved its Hindu problem.

I had no problem with his drinking his ``mellow-yellow`` but did have a problem with his flaunting his taste. He caused endless problems for us desis when he came to the US. Colleagues in the offices wondered if this was a common practice among ``us``. On the day of his death, I was having the other mellow-yellow with a Canadian colleague after work in a bar. My colleague, who remembered his ``habit``, remarked that it couldn`t be that bad if he lived in good health till the age of 100. I responded that with the kind of discipline, strict control over his diet and daily yoga that he practised, one wonders how much longer he would have lived if he did not use his daily prescription.

From #18 by harimau :
``..We madrassis have been drinking coffee exclusively while you guys have been drinking tea all your life so don`t tell us to smell the coffee. We even know the difference between coffee and ``mellow yellow``. ...
You are right here. Hindi belt has produced lots of Laloos and an army of BJP and RSS gangsters who beat up people especially if they are helpless and innocent. ...

#32 by amit

[It seems like I am the only Indian who feels revolted and disgusted by all this urine drinking stuff. Everyone else wants to defend this absurdity.]

No one is defending Morarji Desai`s piss-drinking habit. But everyone is defending his right to do as he pleases, as long as it does not harm anyone else. You seem to have difficulty comprehending the difference between the two.

#18 by harimau on April 11, 2005 5:15pm PT
We have Manmohan Singh the Neutered riding in an Ambassador rather than the Mercedes limousines that the BJP government had imported!



.........Manmohan travels in a bullet proof stretch BMW 7 series(the latest version), actually three of them at a time, `cause of security.Vajpayee was given his BMW 7 series limos to use in retirement as all ex-PM`s are given security detail.They use Ambi`s only when they hit the rural roads so as not to stand out from the masses. Now that the Merc S and C class cars are made in Pune, i guess they`re infra-dig for the new rajahs.Kalam still has a stretch mercedes S-class limo, though.AND, i fully agree with `Amit`s` assessment of your Iyer predicament.There are enough of yous in Mumbai to know how narrow minded and bigoted you all are.Yuck.

Re:HP#28

You have a point. It seems like I am the only Indian who feels revolted and disgusted by all this urine drinking stuff. Everyone else wants to defend this absurdity. It is quite remarkable!!

Re:vivek

I dont believe in turning the other cheek. If someone like harimau attacks me personally for no reason, I have every right to respond to that. There is nothing bigoted about that.

Re:satyamvada

Look, I am all for a robust exchange of ideas without personal attacks. However, if someone attacks me, I will respond to it. I understand your politics and your point of view, which is different from mine. That is good, because if we all think alike, the world would be a very boring place :-).

As far as politics go, I am actually a staunch nationalist, not a leftist by any means since I despise socialist economics. My disagreement with the right wing in India is that their focus is on the wrong issue i.e. religion. I believe that their focus should be on economics and free markets, while leaving religion and caste issues aside for the foreseeable future. Let that be a personal matter. A focus on divisive issues leads to a dissipation of the national energy on destructive issues and prevents us from realizing our real potential. The same goes for relations with Pakistan. A focus on petty squabbling distracts us from the long-term objective of becoming a regional economic powerhouse.

#26 by khamkhwa

She`s is not going anywhere. We gonna see a revolution and Ferzana chasing these traitors to the Arabian Sea ;)

I wonder what made Ms. Versey pick this Indian PM out of the blue. Is it to celebrate his birthday or...
Here was a strange man who worked all his life following in Gandhi ji footstep and in the end just outshone Gandhi Ji by pioneering something so much in tune with Indian culture that beat Gandhi’s ahnsa or non violence philosophy hands down.. Gandhi talked about something that wasn’t part of the Indian culture. He borrowed it from Christian teachings and here we have this pioneer who practiced something that gels so well with Indian...
He was India’s PM but he never defended India’s Foreign Policy, Economic policy or any political philosophy yet he so eloquently defended what he thought was something amazing! I mean, just read this:
“In my country, mothers have given urine as a drink to newborns for ages!” (Thanks BeeJay for the quote).

I doubt he ever defended any Indian policy with such candor and conviction.
He was a pioneer no doubt about it. Now the whole generation of Indian is following in his footsteps. We have Aftershave lotions, Attaar and perfumes made of the sacred product. People are wearing them every day, washing their faces with it too.

I am happy that I don’t live in New York City any more. I mean first thing in the morning in the Metro…guy standing next to you, seems so happy … wearing the aftershave, doused in cologne and what not…Just think about it…UGH!

But why did FV single out this guy…Just to celebrate his birthday… I guess!

Re:harimau

Just grow up, will you? You lack the finesse or the intellect to insult anyone. You started all this by calling me names without any provocation, but I will let it slide.

Before you attack North Indians, look at your own individual situation. You are a Iyer. That means you are basically as good as an outcaste in Tamil Nadu. If it were not for us North Indians and the IITs, you Iyers would be starving to death in Tamil Nadu. You know why? Because Tamil Brahmins are bitterly hated by every other Tamilian, so much so that you cannot even get seats in your own colleges or get jobs in your own state. This is mainly because of your extreme casteist, clannish attitudes in the past and the humiliation that you heaped upon others in Tamil Nadu. Today you are paying the price for that.

I understand your utter frustration about reservations and I feel pity for you. But you reap as you sow.

Ref amit aka India`s Terry Schiavo #20

The working population of the world has been divided into two categories: manual laborers and knowledge workers. North India has the unique distinction of producing a third category: dickworkers.

...a ferzana versey article and not a single personal attack on her so far... you guys must be losing it...atleast tell her to go to kabul or karachi or where ever you wish to send traitors...;)

Nice article.
Monomita(remember me?)

Amit,
It would be better if you convey your point without being abusive. Also, you seem to suffer from the notion of northern superiority. For all your claims of being liberal, you sound as bigoted as the right wing you are accusing of bigotory.

Amit,

Each time someone points out the flaws and illogic in your statements, you get
angry and become abusive.
Calm down, Amit, it is never to late to learn. You are a smart fella, you can take
it when facts puncture your fantasies.

Ref amit aka India`s Terry Schiavo #20

[Hey madraasi, wake up and smell the coffee.]

Of course you have selective amnesia or forgotten that the socialist crap was peddled by UP-wallahs like Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi, Lal Bahadur Shastri, etc., in addition to Kripalani, Ram Manohar Lodhi & Co. It is the madrassi Rajaji who even started a conservative party called the Swatantra Party to combat socialism in India. We madrassis have been drinking coffee exclusively while you guys have been drinking tea all your life so don`t tell us to smell the coffee. We even know the difference between coffee and ``mellow yellow``.

Other than the fact that you people breed like pigs (thus giving UP and the Hindi belt a massive population), have you guys come up with one useful thing in life? Exactly how many Nobel Prizes have your porcine cousins won? Even for (Hindi) literature? Have you noticed that despite all the factories located at NOIDA, the industrial output of Hindiwallahs is minuscule?

Do tell us, what exactly are you Hindi-wallahs good for, except reproducing exponentially like viruses and thus making a good subject for the study of unhealthy organisms?

I know what you are going to do when you read this: resolve to convert India to a laboratory for population studies by adding to it.

The only somewhat nagging issue about Morarji is mentioned by soysauce.

Even in 1971, as Mrs Gandhi weighed various options facing the nation, someone was keeping N-K, the Depraved Duo in the White House constantly informed.

This one person did more, and more lasting, damage to the nation than can be ever put in words.

On the other hand, trusting anything K` said or wrote would suggest a real desperation to blame someone. Nor do we have any real evidence, IMO, against him. So Morarji remains unscathed in my eyes. We will prefer to believe that he became the `symbol of Pakistan` for the goodness of his heart.

---

I am going to drink my piss, eat some monkey`s ass, and a chew on a horse`s scrotum. Jo karna hai kar lo.

Re:harimau

Hey madraasi, wake up and smell the coffee. Both left and right parties in India are responsible for our situation. The left parties messed up the economy till the 90s. If you have a booming economy, who cares about reservations for a few government jobs? Anyway the only people who complain about reservations are people like you, who do not have the brains to compete and succeed on your own, so you want to blame others. It is like the white trash in the US that keeps attacking affirmative action for their problems.

The right parties are obsessed with breaking masjids and building temples, while leading an occasional pogrom or two. If the BJP had focused 100% on economy instead of temples and mosques, it would still be in power today.

What you really want are low profile, smart leaders who unleash the economy, leave religious stuff alone for the next 50 years and let the ordinary people of India chart the destiny of the country. It is a libertarian philosophy, but I doubt someone with your pea sized brain will get it.

Ref amit aka India`s Terry Schiavo #8

[Morarji Desai was basically a fruitcake, a whacko..... It is people like him who gave Indians a guilt complex for wanting to be rich and successful - this obsession with austerity and self-denial was a key cultural stumbling block against developing a successful economy. Our socialist system and hindu levels of growth were due to this culture of looking down on material success and consumerism.

Thank god, we have tossed out this type of garbage. Finally we are living like normal people with a booming free market economy, democracy and secularism with everyone pursuing their ambitions to be rich, successful and happy without feeling guilty about it.]

It is just that Sanjay Gandhi, Rajiv Gandhi, Lalloo Prasad Yadav, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion, ``Drumbeat`` Maran, PV Narasimha Rao, Mayawati were pursuing ``secularism`` by pandering to caste-basedand religious vote banks while simultaneously earning world-class fortunes while you and I were left behind.

But then, it is easier to blame a man who personally did not benefit from his office for the general poverty than to bring to justice who enriched themselves at the public`s expense.

You REALLY must have been part of the quota system: you got one of those special seats reserved for the brain dead.

Ref amit aka India`s Terry Schiavo #17

[....Even today, the quality of a leader is measured by how spartan a life that person leads, the shabby car he travels in...]

We have Manmohan Singh the Neutered riding in an Ambassador rather than the Mercedes limousines that the BJP government had imported!

[The fact is that at individual level, we are as motivated to succeed and prosper as any other people. That is why since the 90s, we have seen such economic growth. If our leadership had not wasted 50 years, today we would be a developed nation.]

Out of those 50 wasted years, Morarji Desai was in power for only 18 months. The rest of the time we were ruled by Jawaharlal Nehru, Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi. You might want to draw some conclusions from that. On the other hand, you might not and just decide to read books from Jawaharlal Nehru University or the English newspapers.

[I think finally we are getting it - we need total free market economy based on merit, democracy and complete secularism and we can become a major power.]

Merit means no reservations/quota system. Secularism means Common Civil Code and no subsidy for Haj pilgrimages.

The rest of India is getting it. You obviously aren`t.

Brain death is forever!

Re:Beejay#13

You wrote:``This whole concept of blind reverence based on age alone makes me very sick, since I am convinced it is at the root of many ills that the Indian subcontinent faces today (my personal view, of course)!``

That is very well put and absolutely true. We have this notion that age equals wisdom, which is not true in a lot of cases. This makes us resistant to new ideas and concepts as we cling on to the past.

A classic example is our fascination for austerity. Before independence, it made sense for Gandhi to promote austerity and self-discipline in order to fight against the British. But after we had our own country and controlled our destiny, what sense did it make to create a virtue out of poverty? While other countries like Taiwan or South Korea focused on economic growth, we got mired in socialism. Even our rightist leaders were not very materialistic and obsessed with religious stuff while the leftist ones made a complete fetish of poverty. Even today, the quality of a leader is measured by how spartan a life that person leads, the shabby car he travels in and whether he has sex or not. What correlation does that have to performance or good governance? I would pick someone dynamic who has a zest for life and who wants to deliver solutions to the people rather than a monk to lead my country.

The fact is that at individual level, we are as motivated to succeed and prosper as any other people. That is why since the 90s, we have seen such economic growth. If our leadership had not wasted 50 years, today we would be a developed nation. I think finally we are getting it - we need total free market economy based on merit, democracy and complete secularism and we can become a major power.