The Dour Ascetic

Can somebody explain what exactly hidutva is?I have heard this term only after BJP came into power at the centre and organizations like VHP,Bajrang Dal,Shiv Sena became visible on the Indian scene and the oldest organization(RSS) became much more powerful.Hindus never had exclusive political representation and neither did they strive for it en masse.BJP is not exclusively Hindu Party and is hardly different from congress in its political agenda.

Re: # 64

hindutva was first coined by Savarker, I would say it is Hindu Nationalism.

My interest in the issue is academic... I don`t agree with the conclusions being drawn...

dost-mittar

I have had only one good look at Modi, on TV. He was giving a speech. I don`t even know what he was saying.

But it was his MANNER that scared me. There was no doubt in my mind that if he were given a free hand, the guy could turn any crowd into a frenzied mob ...

That`s not religion at all.

Modi and those who share his views, the sikh separatists, the naxals,RSS et alia are no different from one another.They are all extremist elements in indian society.The BJP is similar to the republican party in the US.Just as the GOP has extremist religious and fascist elements, so too does the BJP.Yet the majority of the BJP cadre are secular.One of the BJP general secretary`s by the name of Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi is too lead a BJP group to pakistan next month.The Congress is similar to the Democratic party.Full of woolly liberals and limosine effetes.The leftists are filled to the brim with some of the most educated , elite and intellectual minds of India.What a paradox indian politics is.

The majority of indians are secular and believe in the country.If not, how can we be counted among the top nations of the world noted for everything from arts/entertainment to science, technology and intellectual property?.But . then again if not for the Modi`s , the SGPC`s , the RSS et alia, the people will slide into their regional niches and forget about the nation.These people keep us on our toes.As for Modi, onc the people of Gujarat, both hindu and muslim, realize that he`s an embarassment and will hurt them in their pockets(foreign investment into gujarat), they will kick him out.This was propounded by my neighbor , a gujarati muslim by the name of Amin.

As for interact #61, the rewrite should be....inspite of this hideousness, india is where it is and still moving ahead.That(the inane religious practices) is where we came from.It still lingers.These villagers would never have left their areas and visited a big town or city.They are usually in awe when they do.There are many layers to india, something that adds to the world`s fascination with us.

#67 by kaalchakra
[But it was his MANNER that scared me. There was no doubt in my mind that if he were given a free hand, the guy could turn any crowd into a frenzied mob ...]

Indeed, Modi is a skilful orator and the venom in his words is enough to whip up communal frenzy in even a sane mob. He chooses his words very carefully and every word drips with hatred for his opponents. But hopefully, the rate at which skeletons are tumbling out of his cupboard, like the recent revelation that he had instructed the Police Chief to keep track of his opponents` telephones will be enough to cut him down to size.

dost-mittarji (#62):

[The real danger from hindutva is not religious bigotry but fascism.]

What if religious bigotry is fascistic? If religion is not the basis of Hindutva, then why are other communities always portrayed as the Other? Its political sanctity rests almost entirely on its religious credo. Advani said recently that his one regret is that he could not build the Ram temple at Ayodhya; he is not talking about the hospitals and educational institutes that could not be built.
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Faruk (#63):

[If minority communalism is tolerated majority communalism is bound to happen. I don’t see the leftist as non communal, just against majority communalism.]

So, if gay rights are tolerated, should we accept that homophobia is bound to happen?

I think we should see communalism as two aspects -- a communal identity and a herd mentality, sometimes misused. When does one communalism lead to another? That is a question worth thinking about.

The leftist is against majority communalism, which is how secularism as a political entity functions -- to prevent a large group from holding sway and gagging any voice other than its own.
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#57 by anil:

[How would you define... ``Your India``...?]

I am surprised by this question, since I have not used the phrase either in the article or my interacts. Wonder why you asked.

But, here`s a plug! For the answer perhaps you could go to http://www.chowk.com/show_exhibition_home_page.cgi?exid=150&start=0&end=4&chapter=1&page=1

Re: # 70
Dear Farzana:

I had often wondered and wanted to ask how a writer, journalist and a artist like you would define ``Your India``, and hence the question. Thanks for the link. Would you not say that there is more to ``Your India`` ?

Anil

#70 by FarzanaVersey on April 15, 2005 0:20am PT
So, if gay rights are tolerated, should we accept that homophobia is bound to happen?


......So if it does, it does!!!.Let us deal with it like everything else we have dealt with.Didn`t we overcome or working on overcoming socialism, Indira is india/India is indira, sikh extremism, muslim alienation,economic and social inequality and traitors of all kinds. We will overcome and survive.Infact, we have.The world is acknowledging us even before we`re fully there.God, you must be old!!!.Interviewing Desai!!!.I don`t mean to be offensive.But there are many old people on this site who have nothing better to do than to rake up the past , it seems!!!!.

Re: # 72:

This really cracked me up, so before I can settle into the sultry somnambulence of the afternoon of the afternoon and tend to my...creaking knees...let me just say that I did not interview Desai NOW; by your logic I ought to be dead and conducting ghostly conversations. Besides, do check out the 18-20 year olds who rake up the past with such vigour (oh, how lovely to spit-polish that piece of antique!)...we seem like benign creatures before their vintage venom.

Re. the gay point, it is called an analogy. Not to be taken literally.

Hope YOU have something better to do...we are just eyeing that nimbu-paani...

#73 by FarzanaVersey on April 15, 2005 1:37am PT
Re: # 72:

we seem like benign creatures before their vintage venom.


We???...If you were an adult when you interviewed desai way back in the days ye must be ancient now, was my train of thought.But, who cares??.One is as young as one thinks one is.I am eyeing the very same `nimbu paani` and i shall fan myself to escape the heat and dust of Bharat and get some beauty sleep.Slaap goed.

Dear Farzana#70:

I agree with your post generally.

`` If religion is not the basis of Hindutva, then why are other communities always portrayed as the Other?``

Of course, religious identity (not religion) is the basis of Hindutva, and, yes, it is against ``the Other``, which is why I said its motives are suspect.

The ideal recipe for Indians would be to follow Jinnah`s famous advice to Pakistanis, namely, for Hindus to cease (politically) being Hindus and Muslims to be Muslims and just become Indians. But that can happen only if Muslims, Sikhs, etc. also cease to think of themselves as political entities (in my opinion, Christians already do so).

While I am convinced that Hindu communalism is a greater danger to India than minority communalism, I am also convinced that it will survive as long as other communal identities do. A tolerance of minority communalism will inevitably lead to a backlash as there will always be an Advani or a Modi to lead a backlash as long as conditions for it exist.

Face facts. Then deal with them reasonably.

There are minorities, but there is no ``minority other`` in India.

It`s Hindu other and Muslim other.

It`s Hindu other and Christian other.

Essentially, it is Hindu other-Semitist other.

There is no minority `problem.` It is the `problem` of Muslims and Christians.

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Even dumping Sikhs among the same category as Christian and Muslims is unwise. Issues are very different.

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``I am convinced that Hindu communalism is a greater danger to India than minority communalism`` -- No comment for now.

kaalchakra#76

Sikhs do have a political identity; it is Christians who do not insist upon a political identity, and have benefitted from that. The result is that there are now 5-6 christian chief ministers, mostly where they are a minority.

dost-mittar

Except in the most trivial sense, being the ``other` is not the same as having a political identity.

Re : Farzana #70
“So, if gay rights are tolerated, should we accept that homophobia is bound to happen? “

I don’t agree with your analogy. I look at homophobia as communalism against the gay community. The point I was trying to make is that minority communalism is just as bad as majority communalism.

”I think we should see communalism as two aspects -- a communal identity and a herd mentality, sometimes misused. When does one communalism lead to another? That is a question worth thinking about.”

There is a big difference between celebrating your culture, your faith, your heritage and differentiating against others on that basis. The latter is communalism the former is not.

”The leftist is against majority communalism, which is how secularism as a political entity functions -- to prevent a large group from holding sway and gagging any voice other than its own.”

That is how secularism is defined by the leftist/socialists. It’s wrong, it’s not the way our constitution describes it and it’s a misguided view of secularism. Preventing a larger group from gagging a smaller group is fine, but tolerating all the antic’s of all smaller groups is not secularism.

The shah bano case is a good example, a small vocal group, a minority within a minority managed to force the Indian govt. to amend the Indian constitution to deprive Muslim women of their right to alimony. That is secularism according to the leftist/socialist not according to me.

Lets take another example, the French have banned all forms of religious identity from public schools. The majority Christians cannot wear the cross, the Muslims cannot wear hijab and the Jews cannot wear the scull cap. This in my opinion is taking the concept of an uniform too far but its applied across the board. It would be wrong to ask the majority Christians to leave their cross at home but make allowances for the Jewish & Muslim minority. That is what the leftist do in India.

Regards,

Faruk