Gay Men and Mischievous Boys
Amrita Rajan May 2, 2005
#156 Posted by jang on May 13, 2005 9:14:19 am
#155 i buy the argument of shaking up the status-quo, challenging orthodoxy,debates etc. more that of homophobia being a large issue. i have observed that indian electorate and society is open and mature to engage in these acts, orthodox chest-thumpers have offcourse a part in the debates.
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#155 Posted by rahul_capri on May 12, 2005 7:38:31 pm
dost-mittar,Even if those laws arent used and no one is convicted or harassed because of them,I would like to get that law repealed, and not quietly, as jang suggests, but with as much confrontation as possible. This should be a matter of debate in all public fora.This is the only way to counter homophobia, if not in the older generation, then in the younger generation. Besides,as I have said in #143, there are two deeper issues on the line here.
#153 Posted by dost_mittar on May 12, 2005 5:57:27 am
amrita:
I would be sceptical of that 5 crore figure. It seems suspiciously like someone applied a 10% figure to the Indian population in the sexually active age groups.
I also do not see much point in raising unnecessary controversy in changing the laws which are not used any way. It`s like the blasphemy law in the U.K; nobody bothers to change it as it is never used.
I would be sceptical of that 5 crore figure. It seems suspiciously like someone applied a 10% figure to the Indian population in the sexually active age groups.
I also do not see much point in raising unnecessary controversy in changing the laws which are not used any way. It`s like the blasphemy law in the U.K; nobody bothers to change it as it is never used.
#154 Posted by amrita on May 12, 2005 11:10:06 am
Re: # 153
Dm - the laws are used. thats the problem. they`re used to harass and blackmail. and they`re used to convict rapists who sodomise or abuse children or through oral sex or by using sex toys. they have to use this law because india has no laws to convict those who rape using those methods or abuse children.
Dm - the laws are used. thats the problem. they`re used to harass and blackmail. and they`re used to convict rapists who sodomise or abuse children or through oral sex or by using sex toys. they have to use this law because india has no laws to convict those who rape using those methods or abuse children.
#152 Posted by amrita on May 11, 2005 11:05:22 pm
jang - you`re right when you point out that its a leftover frm the Raj and has more to do with the British than anything else. But according to reports, the GoI, when asked by the SC why it shouldnt strike the law down as unconstitutional, replied that the law shouldnt be repealed because it was in tune with the culture of India.
And while it was the NDA that gave that answer, the UPA seems set to follow that line. Basically, no one wants to resolve it quietly and no one wants to be known as the govt that made anal sex legal. What could work is a general overhaul of the laws that put them more in tune with this century, introducing laws that address issues pertaining to sexuality, crime, etc and converting a number of SC guidelines, drawn up in the absence of specific law, into law. But for that, the Parliament has got to stop worrying about which politician said what to which colleague on which day that made fun of his lungi and was therefore an insult to democracy requiring boycotts and marches and strikes.
And while it was the NDA that gave that answer, the UPA seems set to follow that line. Basically, no one wants to resolve it quietly and no one wants to be known as the govt that made anal sex legal. What could work is a general overhaul of the laws that put them more in tune with this century, introducing laws that address issues pertaining to sexuality, crime, etc and converting a number of SC guidelines, drawn up in the absence of specific law, into law. But for that, the Parliament has got to stop worrying about which politician said what to which colleague on which day that made fun of his lungi and was therefore an insult to democracy requiring boycotts and marches and strikes.
#151 Posted by rahul_capri on May 11, 2005 7:04:25 pm
#150 I agree that it is not something that can be identified with ancient Hinduism.Normally the space of religion is not constant, it extends to take whatever space is left by other systems.
Example is that book on beef eating.The shiv sainiks ransacked that place, claiming that it attacked their religion, when the author had quoted vedas, I think.Religion can be invoked anywhere, and people buy it. Its not just confined to the shiv sainiks. It also doesnt help that our so called p-secs have double standards. The Hindus feel that they are singled out for becoming liberal, and rightly so.
Example is that book on beef eating.The shiv sainiks ransacked that place, claiming that it attacked their religion, when the author had quoted vedas, I think.Religion can be invoked anywhere, and people buy it. Its not just confined to the shiv sainiks. It also doesnt help that our so called p-secs have double standards. The Hindus feel that they are singled out for becoming liberal, and rightly so.
#150 Posted by jang on May 11, 2005 10:40:38 am
rahul
{But there are two other and broader underlying issues.One is that of civil liberty. What is the rationale for passing a law like banning anal sex? Should not there be some kind of constitutional checkpoint that would automatically preclude such intrusions into civil liberty?
Second is the influence of the status quo forces of religion and tradition on jurispudence.}
the Indian Penal Code about Anal sex is based on old british laws ..as is most of the penal code. i dont think this was passed by post-independance vishan sabha. there are many antiques like that in IPC, but thery are not excercised .. no public prosecutor is really interested. now overturning that law is another matter..i can see shivsena, and others gaining much needed fodder out of this. to say that these laws have anything to do with religion or tradition is incorrect in indian context, they just exist because Ambedkar forgot (or did not consider it important enough) to get rid of these. The best way is via jidiciary: get rid of the law quietly by finding it unconstitutional.
{But there are two other and broader underlying issues.One is that of civil liberty. What is the rationale for passing a law like banning anal sex? Should not there be some kind of constitutional checkpoint that would automatically preclude such intrusions into civil liberty?
Second is the influence of the status quo forces of religion and tradition on jurispudence.}
the Indian Penal Code about Anal sex is based on old british laws ..as is most of the penal code. i dont think this was passed by post-independance vishan sabha. there are many antiques like that in IPC, but thery are not excercised .. no public prosecutor is really interested. now overturning that law is another matter..i can see shivsena, and others gaining much needed fodder out of this. to say that these laws have anything to do with religion or tradition is incorrect in indian context, they just exist because Ambedkar forgot (or did not consider it important enough) to get rid of these. The best way is via jidiciary: get rid of the law quietly by finding it unconstitutional.
#149 Posted by amrita on May 11, 2005 10:15:38 am
whoa - you`re all still at it, i see. thank you! :)
sunlight - we do indeed move in diff circles from the sound of it. I would like to recommend Amitava Kumar`s ``Bombay-London-New York`` - its a pretty good intro to my circles [esp on all the topics discussed here] that keeps your circles in mind. Till then, golmatol`s the word. Oh and about homophobia and Indian tradition, etc - check this site out... http://www.globalgayz.com/g-india.html - its a start. If you want to know more about the history of it and modern day homosexuality in India, as I said before, buy Saleem Kidwai`s book. Its written with the avg jai in mind.
Jang - those two are off on their own trip.
Rahul - 143 expressed it just right in my opinion. The one and only openly gay person I knew in India was Queenie Singh who was hairstylist [and probably still is] to South Delhi. Queenie was also a crossdresser and brought a blush to the cheeks of generations of young men. The kid mentioned in the article was only suspected [and `convicted` in absentia]. The deeper question, as you said, is that of civil liberties.
SR & DM - there are actually now studies on Indian [and subcontinental] homosexuality. Since the mid 90s when gays slowly began coming out of the closet, India has progressed to an official figure [5 crore according to the Hindustantimes.com that reports a lot on the issue], has a national network comprising of helplines, doctors, etc called LGBT India, have formed NGOs that help the cause, meet up in the open - but of course these are more urban phenomena than small townish where its still hard to be gay.
sunlight - we do indeed move in diff circles from the sound of it. I would like to recommend Amitava Kumar`s ``Bombay-London-New York`` - its a pretty good intro to my circles [esp on all the topics discussed here] that keeps your circles in mind. Till then, golmatol`s the word. Oh and about homophobia and Indian tradition, etc - check this site out... http://www.globalgayz.com/g-india.html - its a start. If you want to know more about the history of it and modern day homosexuality in India, as I said before, buy Saleem Kidwai`s book. Its written with the avg jai in mind.
Jang - those two are off on their own trip.
Rahul - 143 expressed it just right in my opinion. The one and only openly gay person I knew in India was Queenie Singh who was hairstylist [and probably still is] to South Delhi. Queenie was also a crossdresser and brought a blush to the cheeks of generations of young men. The kid mentioned in the article was only suspected [and `convicted` in absentia]. The deeper question, as you said, is that of civil liberties.
SR & DM - there are actually now studies on Indian [and subcontinental] homosexuality. Since the mid 90s when gays slowly began coming out of the closet, India has progressed to an official figure [5 crore according to the Hindustantimes.com that reports a lot on the issue], has a national network comprising of helplines, doctors, etc called LGBT India, have formed NGOs that help the cause, meet up in the open - but of course these are more urban phenomena than small townish where its still hard to be gay.
#148 Posted by dost_mittar on May 11, 2005 6:54:06 am
SR#147
I have no opinion on the genetic theory. But on strictly logical grounds, your theory rests on the assumption that homosexuals do not have heterosexual marriages. I do not think that this assumption holds good historically, as they generally lived normal outward lives while practising their homosexuality in closets. With greater acceptance of homosexuality in western socieities, one may be able to test your hypothesis in generations to come.
I have no opinion on the genetic theory. But on strictly logical grounds, your theory rests on the assumption that homosexuals do not have heterosexual marriages. I do not think that this assumption holds good historically, as they generally lived normal outward lives while practising their homosexuality in closets. With greater acceptance of homosexuality in western socieities, one may be able to test your hypothesis in generations to come.
#146 Posted by dost_mittar on May 11, 2005 5:27:12 am
SR, rahul_capri:
I have been hearing/reading about this 10% figure ever since I have been in Canada, which is several decades now. But this is a figure quoted by promoters of same-sex rights groups and has become a conventional wisdom without any scientific basis. What proportion of a population is homosexual depends upon the population (San Francisco versus Peoria), definitions (sexual attraction or once in a lifetime experimentation should not be confused with sexual orientation), sampling techniques and questions asked. Here is an example from google search of some of the surveys in the U.S where the issue is perhaps more discussed and homosexuality more acceptable than in South Asia:
60 years of counting queers - Defense Research Institute
This webpage summarises the findings of a report by RAND`s National Defense Research Institute, for the US Dept of Defense. This study did not involve new research, but an analysis of those studies which, in the opinion of the analysts, conformed to high methodological standards. These included:
QUOTE:
National Opinion Research Council, 1970:
Male 6.7 percent
(Lesbian n/a)
General Social Survey:
Male 5 percent
Female 3.5 percent
Louis Harris & Associates, 1988:
Male 4.4 percent
Female 3.6 percent
Research Triangle, 1991:
Male 8.1 percent
(lesbian n/a)
National Survey of Men, 1993:
Ages 20-39, 2.3 percent
60 years of counting queers - National health and Social Life Survey
This webpage gives a summary of the National Health and Social Life Survey conducted in 1992 by the National Opinion Research Center (University of Chicago). Based on a random sample of 3,432 U.S. residents, it found that 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women self-identified as gay. The study also found that in the 12 largest metropolitan areas, gay-identified men were 10.2% higher than in the suburbs, (corresponding figure for women was 2.1% higher).
60 years of counting queers - Guttmacher Institute survey
This webpage discusses the study entitled The Sexual Behaviour of Men in the United States, released by the Alan Guttmacher Institute in 1992. It received much media attention because it only 1% of its participants identified as gay, well below other studies.
QUOTE:
This conclusion was not surprising since most of the respondents were approached door to door in mainly suburban areas of the United States, where gay and lesbian Americans are least likely to disclose their sexual identities.
I have been hearing/reading about this 10% figure ever since I have been in Canada, which is several decades now. But this is a figure quoted by promoters of same-sex rights groups and has become a conventional wisdom without any scientific basis. What proportion of a population is homosexual depends upon the population (San Francisco versus Peoria), definitions (sexual attraction or once in a lifetime experimentation should not be confused with sexual orientation), sampling techniques and questions asked. Here is an example from google search of some of the surveys in the U.S where the issue is perhaps more discussed and homosexuality more acceptable than in South Asia:
60 years of counting queers - Defense Research Institute
This webpage summarises the findings of a report by RAND`s National Defense Research Institute, for the US Dept of Defense. This study did not involve new research, but an analysis of those studies which, in the opinion of the analysts, conformed to high methodological standards. These included:
QUOTE:
National Opinion Research Council, 1970:
Male 6.7 percent
(Lesbian n/a)
General Social Survey:
Male 5 percent
Female 3.5 percent
Louis Harris & Associates, 1988:
Male 4.4 percent
Female 3.6 percent
Research Triangle, 1991:
Male 8.1 percent
(lesbian n/a)
National Survey of Men, 1993:
Ages 20-39, 2.3 percent
60 years of counting queers - National health and Social Life Survey
This webpage gives a summary of the National Health and Social Life Survey conducted in 1992 by the National Opinion Research Center (University of Chicago). Based on a random sample of 3,432 U.S. residents, it found that 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women self-identified as gay. The study also found that in the 12 largest metropolitan areas, gay-identified men were 10.2% higher than in the suburbs, (corresponding figure for women was 2.1% higher).
60 years of counting queers - Guttmacher Institute survey
This webpage discusses the study entitled The Sexual Behaviour of Men in the United States, released by the Alan Guttmacher Institute in 1992. It received much media attention because it only 1% of its participants identified as gay, well below other studies.
QUOTE:
This conclusion was not surprising since most of the respondents were approached door to door in mainly suburban areas of the United States, where gay and lesbian Americans are least likely to disclose their sexual identities.
#147 Posted by SR on May 11, 2005 6:37:32 am
Re: # 146 dost-mittar
percentage of population that are gays
I do not defend the 10% figuer... it does not matter what the percentage really is. My point was that whatever the percentage, it has remained CONSTANT, and that fact is hard to explain if you hold the view that it is a genetic disorder. The logic is simple. If some genetic disorder was responsible for pre-determining one`s homosexual orientation, then such a genetic trait would, over time, disappear from the population because, presumably, homosexuals will be less likely to leave offsprings behind who could carry the trait to the coming generations. But the percentage of gays has remained pretty constant. Whether it is 1% or 3% or whatever, it has not disappeared over time. How does one explain this if one was to hold the ``genetic disorder`` point of view?
...SR
percentage of population that are gays
I do not defend the 10% figuer... it does not matter what the percentage really is. My point was that whatever the percentage, it has remained CONSTANT, and that fact is hard to explain if you hold the view that it is a genetic disorder. The logic is simple. If some genetic disorder was responsible for pre-determining one`s homosexual orientation, then such a genetic trait would, over time, disappear from the population because, presumably, homosexuals will be less likely to leave offsprings behind who could carry the trait to the coming generations. But the percentage of gays has remained pretty constant. Whether it is 1% or 3% or whatever, it has not disappeared over time. How does one explain this if one was to hold the ``genetic disorder`` point of view?
...SR
#144 Posted by sunlight on May 10, 2005 10:09:05 pm
#142 by rahul_capri
Can you please explain why #98 cannot be applied to India?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In science, the person who is propounding a hypothesis or theory is under the obligation to provide evidence that it is true, and refute all objections to the theory. A person disputing a theory is not under any obligation to provide any evidence; in cases where the disputant provides evidence contradicting the theory, the theory is refuted.
If neither the proposor nor the disputant provides evidence, the theory is just a theory which is neither proved true nor disproved.
Can you please explain why #98 cannot be applied to India?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In science, the person who is propounding a hypothesis or theory is under the obligation to provide evidence that it is true, and refute all objections to the theory. A person disputing a theory is not under any obligation to provide any evidence; in cases where the disputant provides evidence contradicting the theory, the theory is refuted.
If neither the proposor nor the disputant provides evidence, the theory is just a theory which is neither proved true nor disproved.
#145 Posted by rahul_capri on May 10, 2005 10:27:46 pm
Re: # 144
#98 is an ``approach`` and or a ``perspective`` to understand homophobia. Not a theory or a hypothesis. Methods of ethnography and psychology differ from that of physical sciences. If you find something unreasonable or counter intutive in that posts application to India, please provide your reasons.
#98 is an ``approach`` and or a ``perspective`` to understand homophobia. Not a theory or a hypothesis. Methods of ethnography and psychology differ from that of physical sciences. If you find something unreasonable or counter intutive in that posts application to India, please provide your reasons.
#140 Posted by jang on May 10, 2005 2:46:08 pm
huh? whats with sattar and tahmed?
anyhoo...indian working to reduce homophobia in the west recognized with an award
http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/may/10mitaward.htm
anyhoo...indian working to reduce homophobia in the west recognized with an award
http://us.rediff.com/news/2005/may/10mitaward.htm
#139 Posted by sattar2 on May 10, 2005 2:20:23 pm
tahmed,
So you can’t find your post and think I am faking … hmmm. May be you need to try harder. However, it is too late for denial as you’ve already accused me again of trying to pick up women (re #123). Get your story straight, dumb ass. You can’t think straight since your head remains stuck in your rear … which has been your problem all along.
Falsely accusing one of ... trying to pick up women by spreading rumors about them … is sick. Attempt at denial makes it worse.
This suggests that you have morals of a two-bit pimp raised by crack whores. One can only wonder about you. Despite claims of civility, you remain a perverted madarch*d and a lowlife haramee … and I would say this to your face … you stupid fuck …
I am done with this board and I am done kicking your ass. So get lost now. Send me an e-mail if you need to get something off your chest. And then, go screw yourself some more … you sick pervert …
#138 Posted by jang on May 10, 2005 8:03:35 am
#135 by amrita
parvati sounds great.
i dont know about amma much, but in indian politics other example is that of savarkar himself. so general attitude is more in lines of dont-ask-dont-tell .. their is zero (bible-based) religious zealotary against homos like you see in the US.. thats what is different.
The PIL notwithstanding, i still am unconvinced about the importance of gay rights in india, even for gays. Based on my experiece, they are mostly happy to carry on and are much more concerned about regular (missing) law and order issues.
parvati sounds great.
i dont know about amma much, but in indian politics other example is that of savarkar himself. so general attitude is more in lines of dont-ask-dont-tell .. their is zero (bible-based) religious zealotary against homos like you see in the US.. thats what is different.
The PIL notwithstanding, i still am unconvinced about the importance of gay rights in india, even for gays. Based on my experiece, they are mostly happy to carry on and are much more concerned about regular (missing) law and order issues.
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