Gay Men and Mischievous Boys

Amrita:

Let me see...

1. Govind accompanying supermodels may not be really a denial of his gayness, but a further confirmation of it. It is chic for chic gays to be surrounded by women...and even more chic for straight guys to dress like gays...
2. Many homosexuals themselves perpetuate the stereotypes, even if they are not the limp-wristed kind. I am personally saddened to watch a friend, a gorgeous guy and one-time famous ramp model, who displayed no such affectations and in fact had refused to be on the cover of a magazine that wanted him there only for his sexual preference...today I see pictures of him wearing feathers at regular parties. I am sure he had to do so because contemporary urban Page 3 society expects you to stand up and be counted, especially if you are `weird` in any way -- sexually, socially, psychologically.
3. There is a dark underbelly of the movement that `masti` covers up...it is more than mischief...public toilets, dark alleys are witness to some grotesque acts.
4. The IPC is harsh and outdated, but when it talks about `unnatural sex` a gay person can be booked only if caught in the act; incidentally heterosexual couples indulging in anal or oral sex too are culpable according to the law if caught.

Wonder why you did not ask a woman about how she felt about same-gender sex. She may not have said ``yuck``!

This is another article by an indian feminist f*g hag settled in the west, who perpetrates stereotypes of various aspects of indian society just because it allows one to gain entry to chat websites masquerading as intellectual hotspots, always caricaturizing indian men and women to fit the cheap stereotypes embedded in the minds of white f*g hags, limosine liberals and india haters such as paks et alia.Gay men and women can be as vicious, narrow-minded, vituperative and violent as anyone else out there on this planet.Remember Versace and how he died?.

Indians are sexual beings and under the cover of victorian sensibilities we indulge in whatever catches our fancy.One of my dearest friends, a doctor, a sindhi with two sons, an active sex and married life with his wife, also has a deep and long lasting sexual relationship with another man, lasting over a decade.How did i find out?.Not by intention.We are good friends, and in a time in his life when his business was going downhill, he confided his fears and one of his fears was losing all the relationships that he had built up over the years.Not money.Thankfully his business recovered and all is well.This man studied in the Uk, and has traveled all over the world.His male lover is of a similar background and they share many good times together , like vacations and make the most of their situation.He didn`t plan on falling for a guy.It just happened , he says.I`m a good indian male.I value my friendships and trust.

Men in India are most maligned.We take our marriage vows seriously,our friendships dearly,we provide for the children, our extended families and do whatever it takes not to upset the `apple cart`.So, what if one man falls in love with another man?.In India there are thousands of such cases.Ask Ashok Row Kavi.He will validate what i`m saying.That the Supreme Court is even entertaining a motion to remove the stigma from a homosexual union is a big step.Instead of scaring the justices away by being shrill and virulent, let us give them time to handle this situation taking into account the sensibilities of the entire country.Didn`t they act in the case of `Nikhil Kapoor` in the movie about a gay man in Goa, ``My Brother Nikhil`?.India is changing and indians too are.Not all indians have had the chance to see other cultures and become inured to different lifestyles.Time will slowly change everything in India.

Even though this article starts on a funny note, the topic is very serious!

It is not very clear how much of the society’s resentment of gays comes from their behavior and how much (as you describe in the case of Govind) from just being “different”.

The way I understand it, “masti” appears to be the subcontinental equivalent of what “gay” used to be (in U.S.) back in the 60s and 70s – an attempt to dissociate from negative connotations of prevailing terms even though the new term describes exactly the same behavior.

I would have called you spunky for writing this article - for having the courage to bring up a topic with which a LOT of south Asian males (okay, I confess) would be uncomfortable in a way, however I will not call you by that term because you chose to play it safe and appeared to have chickened out in dealing with the women’s side of this issue (lesbianism)! You also skirted the very serious issue of child abuse that often results in such situations (not all such relationships occur between consenting adults).

Also, in my humble opinion, most of the Chowk crowd remains highly “impenetrable” (I mean in the mind).

nicely writen. topic is good....but I think the attempt at showing up the latent hidden prejuidices - ala stuka`s quote on UP - just ends up being a mobius strip

the funny thing is that most of these articles are from a Western POV. Unfortunately, if the authors spent sometime researching they would have found plenty in literature on same sex sexual relationships. But then Macaulay was not wrong about us S. Asians.

BTw you have put up a pretty good red rag to the bulls (both orientations ) by citing that arse-hole ashok Row Kavi....good thing - you will get the required 250+hits. Cayenne Porsche has started the ball rolling in a delicate manner.

nicely writen. topic is good....but I think the attempt at showing up the latent hidden prejuidices - ala stuka`s quote on UP - just ends up being a mobius strip

the funny thing is that most of these articles are from a Western POV. Unfortunately, if the authors spent sometime researching they would have found plenty in literature on same sex sexual relationships. But then Macaulay was not wrong about us S. Asians.

BTw you have put up a pretty good red rag to the bulls (both orientations ) by citing that arse-hole ashok Row Kavi....good thing - you will get the required 250+hits. Cayenne Porsche has started the ball rolling in a delicate manner.

Farzana - :). Okie – 1. the point is that it was nobody’s business but everyone acted like there was a rape waiting to happen mainly because, it seemed to me, he was a short fat color blind bald man who’d invariably show up with people like Nina Manuel or Meghna Reddy [this was quite a while back]. 2. yes, I know the sodomy laws are equally applicable. I also know that it is the only law that allows you to prosecute anal or oral rape. How screwed up is that? 3. I have had conversations with women about it. Most women are either noncommittal or “have no problems with it” [a phrase I have quite a lot of problems with]. But the conversation above with my friend A was a direct result of some conversations I’d been having with my girl friends – most of us had wondered at some point whether or not we were attracted to other women. Some of us decided yes, some of us decided no. But it was when I asked boys [ best friend included] that the yuck-thoo reactions began.

Cayenne – thank you, thank you, thank you! Chowkies pls note that Cayenne decided to be Exhibit A on his own initiative. And this after we’d exchanged words on another board [ps - what happened? Couldn’t find the ignore button? ]! Anyway, I just want to say – Cayenne, you may be a creep but you are a creep with a heart of gold. Thanks.

Beejay – yes, this is a serious subject – thank you for noticing. I kept the casual tone for two reasons – I didn’t feel like climbing onto to a pulpit the day I wrote this and the issue is treated with much hansi mazaak where its not outright disgust/prudery and I wanted that attitude to reflect in the piece as well. I wish I could say I was being brave or spunky in addressing this issue but I don’t feel uncomfortable about homosexuality or in examining homophobia so it was neither. As for lesbians – this is a piece about homophobia and the Indian male, lesbians are part of the discourse but what I have to say on that topic is something entirely diff. Maybe you’ll see it when it’s polished. But yes, let’s not forget the women.

Dotty – you’re too kind. :) the kind of demographic drawn by your points of success are constantly informing me that they’re about to ignore me any second – who knows, they just might do it now and there goes the grand plan. :( Still, I’m glad you showed up. As for the western pov – nope. Anything but, in fact. All the people mentioned in this piece – other than my professor M – are Indians, and the practice of masti surely shows that homosexual behavior is not an import. As for Kavi – hmmm, you think so?

Amrita,
Are you a Man, disguised as woman? Don`t be afraid, we will still love you.
Now, please come out of the Baxa.

#7 that is what I am saying - I seem to have dropped the word(s) S. Asian somewhere ...if youlook up S.Asian literature from Gandhara all way down to Kanya Kumari, literature from before the advent of the arabs to the subcontinent, you will find that this topic was dealt with thouroughly....What I would have liked,perhaps this is something which I didnt articulate properly, is to see the story purely from a S.Asian POV - culturally and histographically - to see how this was treated.

The manner in which this topic is currently treated and upto a point the other one, doesnot raise many issues not does it question our own beliefs. It is in a heckling mode, this one is a lot more subtle than the other one, nonetheless the heckling mode is present. For example - you sight Masti as something which is present in the society - but really have you developed this idea, traced its origins, roots etc. Naaaah! It was just added to the story to heckle, and to raise the hackles of the moral puritans.

The statement you make ``the practice of masti surely shows that homosexual behavior is not an import`` - is againa throw away one - just to raise the hackles for it is not substantiated, and no basis is provided for it.

Kavi is a brainless arse-hole, who is shrill and given to histrionics and has very little substance between his ears.

#9 further to 9 and the article - actually is it not Masti - that is an incorrect word....sort of bourgoiuse (spelling????) form of the actual thing - its called gaand masti...so there at the first hurdle your middle class sensibilities tookover Am!

Re: # 9
dotty - ok, i see where you`re coming from... you want to see it within a historical perspective, which is fine but entirely diff from what this peice is looking at.

and on that point, no this peice is not looking to raise anyone`s hackles. it seems a singularly useless way to spend your time and i am not interested, as i said below, in inviting a lot of people to yell without purpose at my expense. and i have to ask - why should it raise your hackles [if indeed they are raised]? how is it heckling to point out the existence of homophobia? or masti?

isnt that something that someone whose hackles are raised should wonder about?

masti is not a western import and that is not a throw away line. sex, whether homosexual or heterosexual is natural - its not something you learn or imbibe. you either do or you dont - as should be clear from the subcontinental lit you bring up. the practice of masti, according to gay rights activists and sex historians, is homosexuality with a subcontinental twist. its something males in South Asia [the study i referred was conducted in Pakistan as well as India] do as a matter of course.

the greater point is something farzana [and beejay] touched upon - the darker side of masti and indeed gay life in the subcontinent.

Re: # 10
no its really masti - gaand masti is technically correct but is used as gay code, i believe. so the next time you take a walk in bbay and some bai tells you not to do any gaand masti, think long and hard - :))

#11 Am it is not a question of how I see it. As far as i am concerned this is sometihng which has been around for ages. The people of the NW are teased about it - but really the greeks were at it for ages (and then ofcourse the romans) - otherwise San Sebastian (story movie etc wouldnt have been around now would it).

The issue of one of educating people about their own biases (prejuidice is a strong word here). This can be done, properly and thoroughly, if it is done from within the context of their cultural identity. Anything else will be rubbished as external modern influences and you get a shell to bang your head against - and this would be a singularly wasteful exercise. (this is why I said it would raise more hackles than smooth the feathers).

``the practice of masti, according to gay rights activists and sex historians, is homosexuality with a subcontinental twist. its something males in South Asia``

the fact that you constructed the above this way indicates the POV you are coming from. There is a confusion here: one one hand you are suggesting that homosexuality is prevalent in the subcontinent, and for a long time, on the other hand you are suggesting that it is ``with a subcontinental twist`` - the implication being an occidental veiw of what homosexuality is. The way you have described Masti, and defined it, suggests that it is not homosexality with a subcontinental twist, but a uniquely subcontinental practise of sexuality which is ambivalent.

Culturally, there has been a strong strand where sexuality is defined in a very ambiguous way within Indian context. Check out the Mahabharata, thepuranas etc you will find that this ambivalence is present in some of the great heros - some of them turned out to be cross-dressers (even Vishnu became a woman when the poor guy had to distribute the nectar churned from the oceans, and drink the posion as a man when it came up as well).
In fact a lot of gandharan art focuses on this ambivalence.

The darker side referred by both is something which is always abhorent and should be put down with force. Indeed, there is no place for that. That is not a greater point - and think you are a bit way of the target here - for you see

A bad thing is a bad thing you cannot make it a good. An okay thing which is made to look bad can be made to look good. I am sure you are working towards the latter, not the former. Those who indulges in the former should be...well i will leave it unsaid here....

am:

a bit lost here

can you put masti in english?...it need not be one word... a phrase or a few sentences would be ok too... would help with getting my bearings right:)

#12 :))

BTW I have just checked with `` Masti`` as a term of reference doesnot exist in literature to mean what you suggested. This is something new and colloquial. gaand masti si there .... we have a south asian languages expert here with who I checked this....

#14.

masti
inn aankhon ki masti ke diwanay hazaron hain