Wapsi (The Returning)

#129 by aqazi on April 18, 2005 10:09am PT
Just like all of the Indians here who visited Pakistan recently claim, I have a TON of relatives who visit India and Pakistan on a regular basis (from US), and they always give higher reviews of Pakistan in most aspects of life. .............


DUH?.Like they`ll be anything else but biased.AND, we indians are the biased ones, if your highness were to be believed.You really a New Yorker???.It is evident you must have typed your drivel cowering in a low-rent dingy unpainted hole in the wall fly-by-night internet palace in the crumbling edifice that is karachi, scared of the mullah patrol barging in and shutting the place down and carting you off for a whooping.A TON of relatives or a relatves who weigh a TON?.Yeah,and paks are given visas to traipse in and out of india at will!!!.Chuckle.

re: # 73 by Manto
(``I had once posted a well researched article from the bharat rhakshak website.``

Ha ha ha )
Read my post addressed to Netizen where i had posted a link to the Bharatrakshak article. Let us see who has the last laugh now
As i said already, u need to grow up.
Sridhar

re:#64 by Netizen
I think u will find this interesting. It is well written and well analysed. Url:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE6-2/sridhar.html
Sridhar

Re: # 119 Manto

You misunderstood. I am on your side :)

Jinnah-worship must go on - no matter what anybody says. So what if indians are right. It doesn`t matter. Jinnah is god and he must be worshipped. So never mind about these pesky RSS-type bigoted hinuds.

[.....Folks, YLH is really pissed off now. Block letters are pouring in. Next thing you know - entire book by Wolpert will be pasted in chowk. So cut the guy some slack, OK??]

Wake up guys, WAKE UP! Look at reality of today, not of 60s or 70s or even the 80s.

Reality of today is that Pakistan is a jehadi basket case.

Your relatives from the US are Pakistani Muslims. Of course, they will give Pakistan higher grade than India. And we are supposed to take their word as something unbiased.

Wake up guys, WAKE UP! Look at reality of today, not of 60s or 70s or even the 80s.

Reality of today is that Pakistan is a jehadi basket case.

Your relatives from the US are Pakistani Muslims. Of course, they will give Pakistan higher grade than India. And we are supposed to take their word as something unbiased.

re:#118 by Netizen
Good post.
Why Buddhism, after thriving in India for close to 10 centuries, disappeared from its land of origin? This has been debated by scholars.
I quote the relevant passages from a book:
The Path of the Buddha: Buddhism Interpreted by Buddhists by Kenneth W. Morgan (page 47-50)
(The virtual disappearance of Buddhism from India is one of the most baffling problems in the history of that land. Why did Buddhism disappear from the land of its birth, after disseminating the Doctrine to all the parts of the then known world? Of the various reasons suggested, many of them having some truth in them, the most important were the decline of vigor in the Sangha, the Muslim invasion, and the opposition of the Hindu community.

The decline of vigor in the Order was a major cause of the decline of Buddhism. The vitality of the Sangha lay in the spirit of renunciation, self-discipline, broadmindedness, liberality, service, and sacrifice for the many; when those characteristics were weakened and lost, the influence of the Order disappeared. The Buddha himself, right up to the last days of his life, went on from one place to another arousing the people and leading them to the noble Path of Righteousness. Sariputta, Moggallana, and numerous other Arahat disciples of his followed the same ideals. As time went on, the Buddhist monks did their best to live up to those high principles and succeeded in converting the major part of the known world to the sublime Doctrine of the Buddha. In India, great kings and emperors embraced Buddhism and with zealous devotion sacrificed for the preservation and spread of the Dhamma.

By the eleventh century after the Buddha ( sixth century A.D.) there were great universities and centers for study throughout the country, some with as many as 10,000 students from every Buddhist land. Kings, nobles, merchants, and the common people all contributed their share toward the maintenance of these institutions, but although these rich endowments and the royal patronage made the Buddhist organizations strong and prosperous, they at the same time gradually undermined the high ideals of renunciation and sacrifice on which the Sangha and the universities were founded. The monks gradually became used to an easy life devoted primarily to academic pursuits and religious celebrations; they grew lax and accepted perverse and worldly practices and beliefs which were opposed to the earlier ideals. This led to the disintegration of the Order into diverse sects, to the weakening of the moral standards of the Sangha, and to a corresponding waning of the religious fervor, faith, and devotion of the laity.
The Muslim invasion played an important part in the disappearance of Buddhism from India for, just as the Sangha began to decline in vigor, the Muslim vandals invaded the country, indiscriminately massacring the people and burning and destroying the shrines, monasteries, and schools in their path. Especial ferocity was directed toward Buddhist institutions with huge Buddha images, many of gold and precious stones. The shaven-headed monks wearing distinctive saffron robes were easily spotted and cruelly murdered as idolaters. In the destruction of the University of Nalanda, it is recorded by the Turkish historian Minhazad, in his book Tavakata-INasiri, that thousands of monks were burned alive and yet more thousands beheaded, and the burning of the library continued for several months.

This extermination of the monks gave a fatal blow to the organization of the Sangha from which it never recovered. There was no one left to carry on the organization or to lead the bewildered laity who in their helplessness were exposed to the forcible proselytization of the Muslims and the slow but steady absorption by the Hindus. Although the Hindus and Jains were subjected to the same persecution, since their priests and leaders were scattered among their people and not easily singled out for destruction, they could survive and gradually rebuild the communities. With the destruction of the Sangha, the Buddhists were left without leaders, and Buddhism did not recover.

The third important factor in the decline of Buddhism in India was the strong opposition from the orthodox Hindu tradition. The orthodox members of the community had always, in their hearts, been against Buddhism--chiefly because of criticism of the caste system. During the glorious days of Buddhism, under the protection of royal patronage, the sectarian Hindus could not raise their voice against Buddhism, but after the invasions the orthodox community was able to move without restraint and slowly converted Buddhist temples which had escaped destruction into Hindu temples. The Buddhists, lacking strong leadership and subject to community pressures, were slowly absorbed. In those parts of India not brought under the control of the invaders, the pressure of the caste system slowly brought about the end of Buddhism.

Thus these three factors-the disintegration of the Sangha, external invasion, and internal opposition-together contributed to the decline of Buddhism in the land of its birth.)
When Buddhism eclipsed, a vaccum was left for sometime. Then came one of the greatest scholars and philosophers world has ever seen: AdiSankara, who singlehandedly rejuvenated the Vedic school of thought and popularised the religious traditions that we call ``hinduism`` today (there is really no word as Hindu in any of hindu scriptures! It is a name given by outsiders).
Sridhar

Re: # 129

Well said... the Hindutva brigade here ofcourse will respond with the same old tactics.

Re: # 128

The discussion about the Direct Action Day call was carried out complete and spanned over 300 posts on Stuka`s travellogue.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004938&channel=gulberg#interact

I am afraid it shows convincingly that the Indians were not able to answer the questions and resorted to personal insults like ``you are barking`` and ``we are right``.

As for Harish`s lies.... I gave him an answer on several occasions.


Here the discussion was why Harish wants to get his rearend whooped on every single board... and he said it was because I spoke the truth about Gandhi that he was a bigoted racist Mahatma.

Re: # 128

The discussion about the Direct Action Day call was carried out complete and spanned over 300 posts on Stuka`s travellogue.

http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00004938&channel=gulberg#interact

I am afraid it shows convincingly that the Indians were not able to answer the questions and resorted to personal insults like ``you are barking`` and ``we are right``.

As for Harish`s lies.... I gave him an answer on several occasions.


Here the discussion was why Harish wants to get his rearend whooped on every single board... and he said it was because I spoke the truth about Gandhi that he was a bigoted racist Mahatma.

Veeresh, your articles are written well and interesting to read as opposite point of views.

But unfortunately, it seems as if your Pakistan-envy or Pakistan-fascination gets the better half of you eventually! This article was supposed to be a review of the documentary (judging from the title) but you inevitably turn it into your own personal commentary.

Seriously, I am not disagreeing or agreeing with your agenda or what you say, but I swear I didnt get much info about the documentary in your article. It was more of your own commentary and `Falsafa` on everything Pakistani than a REVIEW of the documentary!

I rarely come to chowk because of all the Paki-Indian bickering that eventually takes place after the articles, not to mention the fact that only certain `types` of people are attracted to Chowk in the first place. That’s why all the articles, whether by Pakistanis or Indians, always carry a major agenda. Generally that agenda is mostly Anti-Islam or anything traditionally Muslim, but many times its simply anti-Pakistan for the sake of being anti-Pakistan.

You try to wrap everything about Pakistan in a simple wrapper, which is made in India. You will always remain blind to the reality of Pakistan and what Pakistanis are about. I read your very interesting series of articles about your visit to Pakistan, and at every step, you saw even the most positive things in Pakistan with `New Delhi` lenses.

Just like all of the Indians here who visited Pakistan recently claim, I have a TON of relatives who visit India and Pakistan on a regular basis (from US), and they always give higher reviews of Pakistan in most aspects of life. See, your media has demonized Pakistan so much that now its impossible for you guys to see Pakistan for what it is. On the other hand, Pakistanis are not nearly as distorted in their outlook on India and Indians as you claim we are. I ask you to read Dawn(Dawn.com) and Jang(Jang.com.pk) on a regular basis, as well as Hindustan Times(hindustantimes.com) and Times of India(timesofindia.com). After about a year of reading, it will be completely obvious to you which media portrays whom badly!

Wake up guys, WAKE UP! Look at reality of today, not of 60s or 70s or even the 80s.

Did you manage to read Harish Hyd`s post where he says he is avenging Gandhi`s dishonor (which incidentally was taken entirely out of his own collected works)?

I didn`t. But even if he is doing this to avenge Gandhi`s dishonor how does it change the fact that you are argiung about everything under the sun except Jinnah`s direct action day call.

Kardesh, how did Hindus take care of Buddhists all by themselves?

Did you read Netizen`s post?

Re: # 124

It is typical of them to distort history. And when it is exposed to them, they indulge in group nation exercise of crappin`

Re: # 122
Manto,
The point is that some Hindutva zealots have started to rewrite history to suit their nefarious goals. Blaming the disappearance of Buddhism in India on Muslims is really stretching things. I mean Buddhism as a national faith in India was already gone by the time Muslims arrived in India. Muslims have done enough damage to each other and non-Muslims without this extra credit for wiping out Buddhism in India. Hindus took care of that one by themselves.

Re: # 122
Manto,
The point is that some Hindutva zealots have started to rewrite history to suit their nefarious goals. Blaming the disappearance of Buddhism in India on Muslims is really stretching things. I mean Buddhism as a national faith in India was already gone by the time Muslims arrived in India.