The Sweltering Sky

Notes from the news today on NDTV: Discussing the issue of smuggling across the Tripura-BD border, E.M.Ram Mohan of the BSF candidly stated that unless the BSF itself is involved it could not be sustained. When asked if the Bangladesh Army was a rogue army, he countered, ``You cannot call it a rogue army; the Pakistan Army can be called a rogue army.``

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harimau (#165):

[I wouldn`t in the least be surprised to find out that FV-ji, Aha_Snark, amrita, amit, Dost-Mittar, pinko-pansies and of course the entire Pakistani brigade think that Sonia Gandhi would be an excellent choice as Prime Minister of India.
After all, what is the difference between one illegal immigrant and another?]

You really are afraid of surprises, aren`t you? One, I do not think Sonia Gandhi is an excellent choice. Two, you could be booked under some anti-national act for even considering the views of the ``Pakistani brigade`` regarding our internal politics. Three, a person married to one from another country and joining her/him there does not qualify as an illegal immigrant. Four...there is no four...I think you need to replenish your stock of absinthe!

PS: I am amused to discover that one NRI is asking another NRI about what the future of India should be like...

BBC NEWS
Bangladeshis storm Kuwait embassy
The workers forced their way past security guards
More than 700 Bangladeshi workers have stormed their country`s embassy in Kuwait, causing damage inside.
The rioters also slightly injured two Bangladeshi civilians who were visiting the embassy, Ambassador Nazrul Islam Khan told the BBC.
The embassy called the police, who managed to restore order and arrested some of the workers. The others fled.
Mr Islam told the BBC Bengali service that the motive for the attack was linked to wages not being paid.
Few rights
The workers were employed by a Kuwaiti cleaning company and destroyed furniture, windows and documents, a security officer at the scene told the AFP news agency

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SO, no one likes bangladeshis , it seems.We are one better than their so-called muslim brothers of kuwait.We atleast allow them to eke out a living in our land.

Dear Harimau:

I have read many of your interacts on this web site, and feel that I have a reasonably clear idea of what positions you have on issues. You are obviously a very experienced and articulate person with some very strong views. At the same time, I also try to visualize what you see as the solution to many of the problems that are discussed, and I am quite unable to figure it out. I feel curious, and the best way to satisfy that curiosity is to just ask you. So, I am asking a couple of questions and will appreciate if you can explain to me in plain, simple terms. (Please believe me, I am asking out of inquisitiveness, not orchestrating an inquisition.)

1) What is your vision for India’s future? In other words, how would you like to see that India shape up (for example, in demographics, education levels, the role of individual languages, the north-south (tea-coffee) divide, law and order issues, reconciliation between national, regional, local, caste-based identities, the rural-urban divide, etc.) Which of these issues predominate, and why?

2) What is the best way to get to that vision? I am particularly interested in example of the type of steps (again, in simple terms) you think are necessary.

3) What is your prediction regarding what will actually happen? (In other words, how much of that vision you see coming to fruition over time (say, the next 50 years)?)

Thanks for your time in answering these.
Beej.

The last time a US Army officer was killed in Panama, the US invaded Panama, installed a puppet government, arrested Noriega and jailed him for 40 years.

One such lesson to Bangladesh would keep that country in check for at least two decades.

I wouldn`t in the least be surprised to find out that FV-ji, Aha_Snark, amrita, amit, Dost-Mittar, pinko-pansies and of course the entire Pakistani brigade think that Sonia Gandhi would be an excellent choice as Prime Minister of India.

After all, what is the difference between one illegal immigrant and another?

Re: # 162

``everybody here has agreed that illegal immigration does no favors for any country. ``

I don`t think so. It affects india negatively whereas favors BD.

``i have repeatedly asked people to come up with suggestions ``

Fence the border ASAP (Right now ~60% is fenced)
Corrupt BSF guards to be persecuted for crimes against the nation.
Abrogation of the law passed by Congrees in Assam, where it is the responsibility of the law enforcers to prove that the person is Bangladeshi rather than the person proving that he/she is Indian.
The proces of detecting and deporting BD immediately from all cities.
The local political outfits like Forward Bloc and Communist groups that have previously helped the detained BD to escape to be persecuted for crime against the nation.

More later

`` & can do so without sparking off a war, ``

armies are not meant only for Republic day parades. If a nation cannot protect its border and maintain its territorial integrity then its better to disslove its army.


``when India is in the middle of a major diplomatic effort on four fronts - Pakistan, China, US and the UN. ``

The world respects strong nations like China who won`t hesitate to use brute force to make their point not weaklings who has to bribe BD to reduce illegal invasion.


``Indian companies are going to move abroad eventually in search of greener pastures much as most big companies the world over do. and their going may well impact the populace as i pointed out a while back. but as long as they`re going to spread out, why not b`desh and thus re-establish pre-Partition ties?``

Do you know BD has one of the most number of political hartals. My BD coellegue says there are more agitations than work. If the industry feels they can make money, let them go. If the government would be in a position to influence companies then Bihar would have become Mumbai/Bangalore long time back.

``the naxalite movement is a far greater threat to national security than b`deshi immigrants hoping to make some money trimming your grass. ``

All threats are to be dealt with forcefully. Never underestimate your enemy.

Hey Comrade Amrita ...ref #156 . Cheerio. Inquilab Zindabad !!!

as this board heads towards the bottom of the front page, i find the people on it are still clinging to the bottom of their mentality.

everybody here has agreed that illegal immigration does no favors for any country. and that is where everything has stopped and the name calling has begun. i have repeatedly asked people to come up with suggestions as to how to stop illegal immigration instead of parroting the same lines: ``b`deshi bad, b`deshi muslim, b`deshi this and b`deshi that``. while they have spent enormous amounts of time trying to disprove this person or that, hardly anybody has bothered to come up with a solution.

the few people that have actually applied their intellect, say that the best solution would be to build a fence. i agree - it would be the ideal solution. if you can somehow build a fence in the middle of a mangrove or thickly forested hills, patrolled and infested with naxals who control the territory and are inrodinately fond of shooting Indian personnel and innocent bystanders [more of those indian citizens someone else was so worried about] dead, in the teeth of strong opposition by the border force of another [hostile] country & can do so without sparking off a war, I wish you all the luck in the world.

but at this point, i dont see it happening. not because the govt doesnt want to or because they havent thought of it as yet, but because the northeast in a state of undeclared war that India has failed to address for years which is only being exacerbated by b`deshi support and to force the issue right now will not spark an open war but will multiply indian security headaches right when India is in the middle of a major diplomatic effort on four fronts - Pakistan, China, US and the UN.

i vote for three things - international pressure on B`desh to own up to the terrorist bases on its territory, a change in India`s trademark dismissive attitude and economic diplomacy. the first is necessary because b`desh needs to understand that there is a greater penalty to be paid for its support than India`s anger. the second is necessary because right now b`desh is being wooed by China, which has ambitions of joining SAARC and and laready sees India as an upstart power to its own superpower status - we dont want that. we ought to learn a lesson from Japan which today apologized for war crimes in the teeth of Chinese aggression - and yes, i know its apples and oranges but it was a shrewd move by a country that`s keeping its long term foreign policy goals in sight. As for b`desh`s gratitude - yes, india fought for it but in the aftermath of the war, Mrs. Gandhi`s policy of ``let`s be magnanimous and non-partisan`` cost it support in B`desh. plus, nobody likes the big guy on the playground. face up to it and move on. pouting does not become a wanna-be superpower.

and i am a votary of economic diplomacy because it works. No, the taxpayer`s [btw, what gave rahul the idea i dont pay tax in India or have torn up my passport? neither is true] money is not involved. at least not more than it is already. neither am i saying that the companies will pull up stakes in India and move lock stock and barrel to b`desh. nor will it be enforcable by law if thats what you`re thinking :). Indian companies are going to move abroad eventually in search of greener pastures much as most big companies the world over do. and their going may well impact the populace as i pointed out a while back. but as long as they`re going to spread out, why not b`desh and thus re-establish pre-Partition ties? yes, there are problems with the b`deshi govt in this regard - so let the diplomats and the businessmen do their work.

i dont believe the situation is as bad as Pak and that its going to get there no matter what. things are bad but not so bad. and what is more, the govt of india apparently also holds this view. having seen the effects of economic diplomacy as practiced by other nations, india too would like to get on the bandwagon. the finance and commerce ministries have been buzzing with this idea for years - it just took a little while for the people at external affairs to lend an ear.

but get this straight - no one is going to war. and the naxalite movement is a far greater threat to national security than b`deshi immigrants hoping to make some money trimming your grass.

--Amrita.

ps - it was good discussing the matter with some of you. maybe we`ll get to do so again. :)

Re: # 158
//...A Pakistan like situation with Bangladesh will develop no matter what. As long as Bangladeshis blame India for their problems....//

Exactly. Like DM said - even the ``leftists`` and ``liberals`` in Bdesh blame India - so that means something. So in effect, everybody in Bdesh is blaming India - exactly what happens in Pakiland.

Re: # 157 veer
//...I don`t remember any bleeding hearts feeling bad for us then....//

Could be because you are a hindu. And nothing has changed since then. Even now, no bleeding heart is crying ``hot tears`` for persecuted hindus.

The leftists and `liberals` should visit www.mukto-mona.com
and other websites on conditions of non muslims in Bangladesh.

These illegal muslim `refugees` are weeds. They will proliferate like weeds. And then, destroy India. These namak harams should be sent packing. The first generation may be gracious, I`ve my doubts, after meeting simmilar Namak Harams in the US. Who eat the salt here, enjoy freedom, and then piss in the same plate that feeds them - without reservation.

Parsis came to India as refugees. They added to India`s betterment. I do not have anything against such persecuted refugees. More should be welcome. The adopted local culture.

The plate pissers should be chased out.

#143,

Economic diplomacy is something that Bangladeshis do not understand. They refuse to sell natural gas to us. Think of the amount of money they would make selling fuel to us. Why don`t they want to do it?

Building a fence can be done. Just because it was not done in the last 57 years does not mean it can not be done. I can use your kind of argument to justify anything (Example: Poverty in India can not be reduced. If it can be then the govt would have done it the last 57 years).

If there is a will and enough push from Indian people a fence can be erected and all illegal immigrants from Bangladesh kept out.

A Pakistan like situation with Bangladesh will develop no matter what. As long as Bangladeshis blame India for their problems. The only way Bangladeshis can be brought to line is with a carrot and stick policy. You keep talking only about carrots. It`s high time India wielded the stick.

Fence the border and build dams. Bangladeshis can be kept in check by threatening them with water stoppage whenever they misbehave.

Farzana asks ``how does it feel to be called a refugee``, and then answers herself with a quote from one Rahman, who says ``Like a boat mid-stream…or being lost in the forest…or a chulha without fire...”

Good to hear that Rahman has the time and energy to wax poetic.

As far as I am able to speak out of the experience of being the son of a refugee, as well as having more than a few refugess as friends and relatives, the latest being another Rehman from Old Delhi who decided to leave Pakistan and start anew in his forefather`s Delhi, let me be permitted to tell Farzana what it feels like to be called a refugee?

a) Looking back, it feels very good in some ways to have been called a refugee. The value systems we acquired as we struggled through life building afresh in line with the dreams of a Nation, since that was all we had as goalposts, have seen many of us who are children of refugees to zeniths beyond any that those who were NOT refugees could ever even dream of.

b) To be called a refugee also meant that we truly felt that ``saaraa jaahaan hamara``. Other people had time to shudder during cold nights; we had to do well in maths on borrowed books.

c) Being called a refugee was like a badge of honour after some time. It was like a tight brotherhood. Nobody messed with you, and well before the word became fashionable, you knew what to be a survivor and thus a winner was.

d) A refugee lived hard, played hard and partied even harder. There were times when the nightclubs of Delhi were full of nobody else other than refugees and their children. Not just that, we refugees ran the restaurants, made the ice-cream, brewed the beer and ran the transport.

Being a refugee was not a bad thing, and for all those who point fingers at us in South Delhi now, do remember, as recently as the `60s, our schools were in tents and our homes were rooms made of bricks stacked on the corner of a plot with an asbestos or tin sheet for a roof. Sure, we didnt have the money to build the ``pukka house`` but sure as anything our parents made sure we went to schools where we did well. And remember, they made sure the girls and the boys went.

Funny, I don`t remember any bleeding hearts feeling bad for us then. Guess we were too busy studying maths after playing football?

Damn !! Looks like the folks at chowk filtered out my last post ...anyway , its too good to be hidden away like that....so here goes >>

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I totally agree with Comrade Amrita when she says ,`` Poverty forces migration. Always has, always will. To stop economic migration the only viable way is to improve the lot of the people in that country... ``

However the problem is that India is almost as poor as Bangladesh is so it would be asking for too much for Indians to take care of the financial well being of their Bangladeshi friends. Still , as they say , happiness is a state of the mind . Scientists have conclusively proved that Gross National Satisfaction (GNS) is much more relevant than Gross National Product (GNP) or for that matter Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

So may I make a suggestion ? How about letting the Bangladeshis borrow and enjoy Comrade Amrita for a while ? That should enhance their Gross National Satisfaction (GNS) enormously...and reduce the migration significantly.

## I met a few Hindus in Bangladesh. Their influence in the government and universities has steadily declined. The Hindu ``bhadralok`` is leaving or trying to leave. Those at the upper and lower end are staying but many of them also think that they are better off converting to Islam. ##

That`s very sad. In my opinion, all prosecuted Hindus across the world esp. in Bangladesh should be given asylum in India along with some help to jump start their life here...

This is the reason I have very little sympathy for Muslim problems, Indian or not. When they are in a majority, they prosecute the minorities while they plead for all Minority rights when it`s the other way around..

Thanks,
Avkrishna

153 DM
//..The Hindu ``bhadralok`` is leaving or trying to leave. Those at the upper and lower end are staying but many of them also think that they are better off converting to Islam...//

Yes. My hometown in orissa is full of these people and more and more are moving in everyday. They all have pretty much the same stories. Persecution.

And these are relatively well-off people who have sold everyhting back in Bdesh and have bought lands here and trying to settle down. Those who are not privileged are languishing in all over rural areas of Bdesh. There is no respite for them.