The Sweltering Sky

Notes from the news today on NDTV: Discussing the issue of smuggling across the Tripura-BD border, E.M.Ram Mohan of the BSF candidly stated that unless the BSF itself is involved it could not be sustained. When asked if the Bangladesh Army was a rogue army, he countered, ``You cannot call it a rogue army; the Pakistan Army can be called a rogue army.``

- - -

harimau (#165):

[I wouldn`t in the least be surprised to find out that FV-ji, Aha_Snark, amrita, amit, Dost-Mittar, pinko-pansies and of course the entire Pakistani brigade think that Sonia Gandhi would be an excellent choice as Prime Minister of India.
After all, what is the difference between one illegal immigrant and another?]

You really are afraid of surprises, aren`t you? One, I do not think Sonia Gandhi is an excellent choice. Two, you could be booked under some anti-national act for even considering the views of the ``Pakistani brigade`` regarding our internal politics. Three, a person married to one from another country and joining her/him there does not qualify as an illegal immigrant. Four...there is no four...I think you need to replenish your stock of absinthe!

PS: I am amused to discover that one NRI is asking another NRI about what the future of India should be like...

BBC NEWS
Bangladeshis storm Kuwait embassy
The workers forced their way past security guards
More than 700 Bangladeshi workers have stormed their country`s embassy in Kuwait, causing damage inside.
The rioters also slightly injured two Bangladeshi civilians who were visiting the embassy, Ambassador Nazrul Islam Khan told the BBC.
The embassy called the police, who managed to restore order and arrested some of the workers. The others fled.
Mr Islam told the BBC Bengali service that the motive for the attack was linked to wages not being paid.
Few rights
The workers were employed by a Kuwaiti cleaning company and destroyed furniture, windows and documents, a security officer at the scene told the AFP news agency

---

SO, no one likes bangladeshis , it seems.We are one better than their so-called muslim brothers of kuwait.We atleast allow them to eke out a living in our land.

Dear Harimau:

I have read many of your interacts on this web site, and feel that I have a reasonably clear idea of what positions you have on issues. You are obviously a very experienced and articulate person with some very strong views. At the same time, I also try to visualize what you see as the solution to many of the problems that are discussed, and I am quite unable to figure it out. I feel curious, and the best way to satisfy that curiosity is to just ask you. So, I am asking a couple of questions and will appreciate if you can explain to me in plain, simple terms. (Please believe me, I am asking out of inquisitiveness, not orchestrating an inquisition.)

1) What is your vision for India’s future? In other words, how would you like to see that India shape up (for example, in demographics, education levels, the role of individual languages, the north-south (tea-coffee) divide, law and order issues, reconciliation between national, regional, local, caste-based identities, the rural-urban divide, etc.) Which of these issues predominate, and why?

2) What is the best way to get to that vision? I am particularly interested in example of the type of steps (again, in simple terms) you think are necessary.

3) What is your prediction regarding what will actually happen? (In other words, how much of that vision you see coming to fruition over time (say, the next 50 years)?)

Thanks for your time in answering these.
Beej.

The last time a US Army officer was killed in Panama, the US invaded Panama, installed a puppet government, arrested Noriega and jailed him for 40 years.

One such lesson to Bangladesh would keep that country in check for at least two decades.

I wouldn`t in the least be surprised to find out that FV-ji, Aha_Snark, amrita, amit, Dost-Mittar, pinko-pansies and of course the entire Pakistani brigade think that Sonia Gandhi would be an excellent choice as Prime Minister of India.

After all, what is the difference between one illegal immigrant and another?

Re: # 162

``everybody here has agreed that illegal immigration does no favors for any country. ``

I don`t think so. It affects india negatively whereas favors BD.

``i have repeatedly asked people to come up with suggestions ``

Fence the border ASAP (Right now ~60% is fenced)
Corrupt BSF guards to be persecuted for crimes against the nation.
Abrogation of the law passed by Congrees in Assam, where it is the responsibility of the law enforcers to prove that the person is Bangladeshi rather than the person proving that he/she is Indian.
The proces of detecting and deporting BD immediately from all cities.
The local political outfits like Forward Bloc and Communist groups that have previously helped the detained BD to escape to be persecuted for crime against the nation.

More later

`` & can do so without sparking off a war, ``

armies are not meant only for Republic day parades. If a nation cannot protect its border and maintain its territorial integrity then its better to disslove its army.


``when India is in the middle of a major diplomatic effort on four fronts - Pakistan, China, US and the UN. ``

The world respects strong nations like China who won`t hesitate to use brute force to make their point not weaklings who has to bribe BD to reduce illegal invasion.


``Indian companies are going to move abroad eventually in search of greener pastures much as most big companies the world over do. and their going may well impact the populace as i pointed out a while back. but as long as they`re going to spread out, why not b`desh and thus re-establish pre-Partition ties?``

Do you know BD has one of the most number of political hartals. My BD coellegue says there are more agitations than work. If the industry feels they can make money, let them go. If the government would be in a position to influence companies then Bihar would have become Mumbai/Bangalore long time back.

``the naxalite movement is a far greater threat to national security than b`deshi immigrants hoping to make some money trimming your grass. ``

All threats are to be dealt with forcefully. Never underestimate your enemy.

Hey Comrade Amrita ...ref #156 . Cheerio. Inquilab Zindabad !!!

as this board heads towards the bottom of the front page, i find the people on it are still clinging to the bottom of their mentality.

everybody here has agreed that illegal immigration does no favors for any country. and that is where everything has stopped and the name calling has begun. i have repeatedly asked people to come up with suggestions as to how to stop illegal immigration instead of parroting the same lines: ``b`deshi bad, b`deshi muslim, b`deshi this and b`deshi that``. while they have spent enormous amounts of time trying to disprove this person or that, hardly anybody has bothered to come up with a solution.

the few people that have actually applied their intellect, say that the best solution would be to build a fence. i agree - it would be the ideal solution. if you can somehow build a fence in the middle of a mangrove or thickly forested hills, patrolled and infested with naxals who control the territory and are inrodinately fond of shooting Indian personnel and innocent bystanders [more of those indian citizens someone else was so worried about] dead, in the teeth of strong opposition by the border force of another [hostile] country & can do so without sparking off a war, I wish you all the luck in the world.

but at this point, i dont see it happening. not because the govt doesnt want to or because they havent thought of it as yet, but because the northeast in a state of undeclared war that India has failed to address for years which is only being exacerbated by b`deshi support and to force the issue right now will not spark an open war but will multiply indian security headaches right when India is in the middle of a major diplomatic effort on four fronts - Pakistan, China, US and the UN.

i vote for three things - international pressure on B`desh to own up to the terrorist bases on its territory, a change in India`s trademark dismissive attitude and economic diplomacy. the first is necessary because b`desh needs to understand that there is a greater penalty to be paid for its support than India`s anger. the second is necessary because right now b`desh is being wooed by China, which has ambitions of joining SAARC and and laready sees India as an upstart power to its own superpower status - we dont want that. we ought to learn a lesson from Japan which today apologized for war crimes in the teeth of Chinese aggression - and yes, i know its apples and oranges but it was a shrewd move by a country that`s keeping its long term foreign policy goals in sight. As for b`desh`s gratitude - yes, india fought for it but in the aftermath of the war, Mrs. Gandhi`s policy of ``let`s be magnanimous and non-partisan`` cost it support in B`desh. plus, nobody likes the big guy on the playground. face up to it and move on. pouting does not become a wanna-be superpower.

and i am a votary of economic diplomacy because it works. No, the taxpayer`s [btw, what gave rahul the idea i dont pay tax in India or have torn up my passport? neither is true] money is not involved. at least not more than it is already. neither am i saying that the companies will pull up stakes in India and move lock stock and barrel to b`desh. nor will it be enforcable by law if thats what you`re thinking :). Indian companies are going to move abroad eventually in search of greener pastures much as most big companies the world over do. and their going may well impact the populace as i pointed out a while back. but as long as they`re going to spread out, why not b`desh and thus re-establish pre-Partition ties? yes, there are problems with the b`deshi govt in this regard - so let the diplomats and the businessmen do their work.

i dont believe the situation is as bad as Pak and that its going to get there no matter what. things are bad but not so bad. and what is more, the govt of india apparently also holds this view. having seen the effects of economic diplomacy as practiced by other nations, india too would like to get on the bandwagon. the finance and commerce ministries have been buzzing with this idea for years - it just took a little while for the people at external affairs to lend an ear.

but get this straight - no one is going to war. and the naxalite movement is a far greater threat to national security than b`deshi immigrants hoping to make some money trimming your grass.

--Amrita.

ps - it was good discussing the matter with some of you. maybe we`ll get to do so again. :)

Re: # 158
//...A Pakistan like situation with Bangladesh will develop no matter what. As long as Bangladeshis blame India for their problems....//

Exactly. Like DM said - even the ``leftists`` and ``liberals`` in Bdesh blame India - so that means something. So in effect, everybody in Bdesh is blaming India - exactly what happens in Pakiland.

Re: # 157 veer
//...I don`t remember any bleeding hearts feeling bad for us then....//

Could be because you are a hindu. And nothing has changed since then. Even now, no bleeding heart is crying ``hot tears`` for persecuted hindus.

The leftists and `liberals` should visit www.mukto-mona.com
and other websites on conditions of non muslims in Bangladesh.

These illegal muslim `refugees` are weeds. They will proliferate like weeds. And then, destroy India. These namak harams should be sent packing. The first generation may be gracious, I`ve my doubts, after meeting simmilar Namak Harams in the US. Who eat the salt here, enjoy freedom, and then piss in the same plate that feeds them - without reservation.

Parsis came to India as refugees. They added to India`s betterment. I do not have anything against such persecuted refugees. More should be welcome. The adopted local culture.

The plate pissers should be chased out.

#143,

Economic diplomacy is something that Bangladeshis do not understand. They refuse to sell natural gas to us. Think of the amount of money they would make selling fuel to us. Why don`t they want to do it?

Building a fence can be done. Just because it was not done in the last 57 years does not mean it can not be done. I can use your kind of argument to justify anything (Example: Poverty in India can not be reduced. If it can be then the govt would have done it the last 57 years).

If there is a will and enough push from Indian people a fence can be erected and all illegal immigrants from Bangladesh kept out.

A Pakistan like situation with Bangladesh will develop no matter what. As long as Bangladeshis blame India for their problems. The only way Bangladeshis can be brought to line is with a carrot and stick policy. You keep talking only about carrots. It`s high time India wielded the stick.

Fence the border and build dams. Bangladeshis can be kept in check by threatening them with water stoppage whenever they misbehave.

Farzana asks ``how does it feel to be called a refugee``, and then answers herself with a quote from one Rahman, who says ``Like a boat mid-stream…or being lost in the forest…or a chulha without fire...”

Good to hear that Rahman has the time and energy to wax poetic.

As far as I am able to speak out of the experience of being the son of a refugee, as well as having more than a few refugess as friends and relatives, the latest being another Rehman from Old Delhi who decided to leave Pakistan and start anew in his forefather`s Delhi, let me be permitted to tell Farzana what it feels like to be called a refugee?

a) Looking back, it feels very good in some ways to have been called a refugee. The value systems we acquired as we struggled through life building afresh in line with the dreams of a Nation, since that was all we had as goalposts, have seen many of us who are children of refugees to zeniths beyond any that those who were NOT refugees could ever even dream of.

b) To be called a refugee also meant that we truly felt that ``saaraa jaahaan hamara``. Other people had time to shudder during cold nights; we had to do well in maths on borrowed books.

c) Being called a refugee was like a badge of honour after some time. It was like a tight brotherhood. Nobody messed with you, and well before the word became fashionable, you knew what to be a survivor and thus a winner was.

d) A refugee lived hard, played hard and partied even harder. There were times when the nightclubs of Delhi were full of nobody else other than refugees and their children. Not just that, we refugees ran the restaurants, made the ice-cream, brewed the beer and ran the transport.

Being a refugee was not a bad thing, and for all those who point fingers at us in South Delhi now, do remember, as recently as the `60s, our schools were in tents and our homes were rooms made of bricks stacked on the corner of a plot with an asbestos or tin sheet for a roof. Sure, we didnt have the money to build the ``pukka house`` but sure as anything our parents made sure we went to schools where we did well. And remember, they made sure the girls and the boys went.

Funny, I don`t remember any bleeding hearts feeling bad for us then. Guess we were too busy studying maths after playing football?

Damn !! Looks like the folks at chowk filtered out my last post ...anyway , its too good to be hidden away like that....so here goes >>

---

I totally agree with Comrade Amrita when she says ,`` Poverty forces migration. Always has, always will. To stop economic migration the only viable way is to improve the lot of the people in that country... ``

However the problem is that India is almost as poor as Bangladesh is so it would be asking for too much for Indians to take care of the financial well being of their Bangladeshi friends. Still , as they say , happiness is a state of the mind . Scientists have conclusively proved that Gross National Satisfaction (GNS) is much more relevant than Gross National Product (GNP) or for that matter Gross Domestic Product (GDP).

So may I make a suggestion ? How about letting the Bangladeshis borrow and enjoy Comrade Amrita for a while ? That should enhance their Gross National Satisfaction (GNS) enormously...and reduce the migration significantly.

## I met a few Hindus in Bangladesh. Their influence in the government and universities has steadily declined. The Hindu ``bhadralok`` is leaving or trying to leave. Those at the upper and lower end are staying but many of them also think that they are better off converting to Islam. ##

That`s very sad. In my opinion, all prosecuted Hindus across the world esp. in Bangladesh should be given asylum in India along with some help to jump start their life here...

This is the reason I have very little sympathy for Muslim problems, Indian or not. When they are in a majority, they prosecute the minorities while they plead for all Minority rights when it`s the other way around..

Thanks,
Avkrishna

153 DM
//..The Hindu ``bhadralok`` is leaving or trying to leave. Those at the upper and lower end are staying but many of them also think that they are better off converting to Islam...//

Yes. My hometown in orissa is full of these people and more and more are moving in everyday. They all have pretty much the same stories. Persecution.

And these are relatively well-off people who have sold everyhting back in Bdesh and have bought lands here and trying to settle down. Those who are not privileged are languishing in all over rural areas of Bdesh. There is no respite for them.

amrita:

Bangladeshi attitude towards India (I`m referring to their elite) is quite complex and it was not my intent to sum it up in that one post. Generally speaking, Bangladeshi elite have a lot of admiration for the progress India is making. In return I have a lot of admiration for the social progress, esp. for rural women, Bangladesh is making.

But almost all of them are critical of India. The BNP (think of it as the BJP of Bangladesh) and religious parties blame India for the dismemberment of Pakistan; they feel, correctly in my opinion, that while they had problems with the West, they would have been able to resolve it if India had not intervened. Awami League supporters (JNU and union types) criticise India because it does not help Bangladesh enough (the line taken by you). Neither of these groups is grateful to India for the creation of Bangladesh; instead they think that India should be grateful to it for helping it to dismember its enemy. Neither of these groups is in favour of giving India access to its gas or a trade passage to Burma. They all blame India not only for their water troubles but also for assisting separatists in the Chittagong Hills (this is something that you never hear in India).

WRT Hindus, the elites of both parties would like to treat them with respect. But they are facing problems in rural areas, where neither their properties nor their daughters` honour is safe. It is sometimes also mixed with a desire to drive them out and takeover their properties.

I met a few Hindus in Bangladesh. Their influence in the government and universities has steadily declined. The Hindu ``bhadralok`` is leaving or trying to leave. Those at the upper and lower end are staying but many of them also think that they are better off converting to Islam.

#150 by FarzanaVersey

[For those terribly interested in Bangladeshi infiltration in the NE, it might help to know that this is a give-and-take situation.]

Just how is it give and take? Terrorists set up camps in BD with full approval of the BD government, that is well aware of the fact that these terrorists create disturbances in and are wanted in India. OTOH, the B`deshi refugees (as you would like to call them) aren`t exactly crossing the border with the Indian government`s permission.

People who have never contributed a single Paisa to Indian exchequer, live in North America, Europe and Middle-East, are the most vocal in Indian policy matters! It is hilarious to note that they want us to invest our hard-earned money, not on improving the infra-structure of our country, not on generating more avenues of employment, not on giving better health care to our wretched citizens, but to splurge it on some God Forsaken country that is at the receiving end of natural disasters. The saving grace is that they have not yet blamed the natural disasters on some hidden Indian hand - conspiracy theories being a popular pastime in their pseudo-intellectual circles.

In their warped worldview, India should be a compassionate nation, tending to jacka$$es, looking after thugs and doling out goodies to every failed and pariah state. All this while the aforementioned failed states continue to harm us in all ways possible - supporting terrorism, encouraging illegal migration, peddling drugs and slaughtering our Jawans by luring them into their territory being some pointers to their good intent and even better conduct. They are not rooting for the underdog, they are patting a Rabies dog that deserves to be shot.

And why are they worrying so much about India? Hadn`t they told us that they had torn off their passports? Then why are they pontificating about this poor third-world country, why not enjoy the champagne lifestyle of their adopted country and leave the residents on their own. Anyway, the whining of chawl residents is a case of `sour grapes` that is best handled when ignored.

For those terribly interested in Bangladeshi infiltration in the NE, it might help to know that this is a give-and-take situation. All terrorist groups operating from the NE use BD as their base. Biplab Barua, an arrested militant, said, ``In BD there are camps where Paresh Barua and Aurobindo Rajkhowa live. BDR helps us completely. After we cross the Indian border they take us wherever we want.``

The full report can be found at NDTV.com, November 6, 2002. I have a printout sent to me by the Hindu Mahasabha!

It is old, but yet...

Besides, what militants crossing over have to do with innocent refugees beats me.
- - -

Thanks for the comments, and special mention must be made of the `pinko pansies` -- Amrita, DMji, Aha_snark for making this an extremely interesting discussion.

There has to be consequences for irresponsible behaviour such as exhibited by this author and this site.A PIL(Public Interest Litigation) suit can be filed in an indian court which is enforcable in the US also, to prevent insidious attacks against any nation by persons/groups with a hidden agenda and provide an honest forum for the public to debate, ridicule and analyze valid opinions and issues.I hope ``Chowk`` will verify all the sources of this author, before publishing it.I don`t mean to be a ``spoke in the wheel`` so to speak, but just as there is a ``limit`` to what one can say or do in public, same should also apply to articles on this site.The intention is more important than the message.

Ref amrita #143

[.... re: the border, if you can ``seal`` it to keep out illegal immigrants - more power to you. .... why do you think the Indian govt never thought of it in 57 years esp when they`re doing the same on the LOC? they cant be that dumb.]

Yes, they can be and they ARE.

In those 57 years, for a vast majority of the time, the government was controlled by the crypto-Communists in the Congress Party.

#144 by amrita on April 21, 2005 9:38pm PT
-- bleeding heart liberal.

.............I commend you for your honest admission.I wish the writer of this essay would admit her dishonesty and insidiousness.If ``jaffer`` is a real person produce information(face, written statement etc.) verifying the statements made.If not, accept that this is a bold-faced lie to malign India and he/she will face the consequences.This site too is complicit by allowing this writer unlimited access to propogate lies with malicious intent against an entire nation.An attempt should be made to contact ``Reena Bhadhuri`` ,``a so-called expert on islam at calcutta university``, to ascertain the veracity of her statement, and who/where this person made this statement to.We will get to the bottom of this.``Chowk, for all it`s high-falutin` statements should practice what it preaches.Or, it will be made to.

#143 by amrita

[mahesh - nobody on this board is for illegal immigration that i can see. the article is about those who are already within our borders and have been for a considerable period of time.]

And just how are you going to find out how many of these Bangladeshis have been living for a considerable period of time in India? That`s where the problem starts.

Re: # 137

hmm... i seem to have looped in your reply alongwith Dost-mittar`s. Sorry... and its mixed in with 144.

as for the insult thing - your use of ``Comrade`` made me think you were another manifestation of a disease called Gujju - and if you dont know who that is, you are to be congratulated - and Gujju is indeed dumb enough to think it an insult.

Re: # 138
i absolutely agree with you about illegal immigration. but i dont think its so easy to seal the border but if you can do it, as i said, more power to you. :)

as for b`deshis hindus. my ex-boyfriend`s maternal relations hailed from b`desh. his mother and her sisters migrated to india but his grandfather and uncle remained behind to manage the business. his grandfather was brutally murdered in the months leading up to the 71 war wihle his uncle, then a teenager, was forced to watch. in the years since, the uncle has married, has children and has sent them to study in India. but he and his wife live in B`desh and dont think of moving. his kids continue to hold b`deshi passports. when i talked to him, he said he wasnt alone. there were tons of other hindus in b`desh and despite everything, they would rather be in their country than elsewhere. so its not as simple as saying - get the hindus out of there. this is what he said and i took his word for it because he was a citizen of that country and a frequent visitor to India.

incidentally, he is one of those people with a garment factory... i really support economic diplomacy because i think it will work unlike the hectoring india has hitherto adopted as its regional foreign policy. b`deshi resentment against India might make you angry but its a fact of life and we have to deal with it before we end up with another Indo-Pak issue on our hands. and if you read what i have written, i support it in conjunction with international action. why should we get the international community involved? because it`s added pressure. if b`desh were about to get scared by india yelling at it, then it would have happened long ago. and outright aggression is something India doesnt need at a time when it is lobbying hard for a seat at the UNSC and it wont do it no matter how many BSF men get killed. and dont bother bringing up the Iraq example because it doesnt matter. we live in an unequal world.

mexico didnt ask for a separate country because it was already a separate country. but it did go to war against the US for its territories and lost. japan and germany had US and Russian money invested in them and they are a diff people. b`desh has had 57 years to set up industries and it has - but not enough to counter its rise in population or to deal with the natural disasters that country has seen repeatedly. economic diplomacy gives India a chance to raise its profile and provide employment in that country, which should ideally have an effect on illegal immigration. as for marutis etc and b`deshi reticence - that is why its called ``economic diplomacy`` - you need to sell them on it.

-- bleeding heart liberal.

mahesh - nobody on this board is for illegal immigration that i can see. the article is about those who are already within our borders and have been for a considerable period of time. re: the border, if you can ``seal`` it to keep out illegal immigrants - more power to you. i`d just like to know how you would do so in those forests, with a populace that knows them like the back of their hand, with the northeast states` naxals hiding out in them and gaining support by the day against the indian army and for themselves. as i said, it is the first option that comes to your mind.... why do you think the Indian govt never thought of it in 57 years esp when they`re doing the same on the LOC? they cant be that dumb.

Re: # 134 135

and dear little Gujju shows up once more to exhibit his breeding and the manners they taught him at home... a scholar and a gentleman in truth!

Prashant123, you are really a crass person.

Amrita, we will also touch on why the US-mexico situation is different from India-Bangladesh situation. But, let`s see whether we agree on sealing the border.

Amrita, let`s decide on one thing first. If it was possible to seal the border would you support it or not? We will discuss whether it is even possible to do such a thing later.

amrita, aha-snark:

I am all for treating people who have been in India in a compassionate manner. But as long as nation states exist, and Bangladesh certainly does believ in it even if you do not, India has every right to secure her borders and look after the interests of their own citizens before showing humaniatrian considerations to others. This includes, first and foremost, the concerns and welfare of border states immediately affected by illegal migration, the poor cycle riksha drivers and domestic workers whose already depressed wages will be even more depressed by the addition of surplus labour (if you are bleeding heart leftists you should be concerned about it).

And Bangladesh is not acting like Mexico even if Bangladeshis seeking shelter in India are acting like Mexicans. I have spent some time in that country. Neither their leadership (and I was there during the friendly Sheikh Hasina period) nor their media nor their civil society is prepared to even acknowledge any illegal migration; they claim that these bangladeshis are in fact Indian Muslims. Why should India not seal its border against an ungrateful country whose leaders don`t even own these illegal migrants as their people? The borders are controllable. Both the U.S and India are unable to do so because they are not prepared to adopt harsh measures and, in India`s case, corrupt border guards who are willing to look the other way for a small consideration and benefit from the smuggling taking place across the borders.

I am surprised to see people asking Indian industries to invest in Bangladesh. Bangladesh does not have an open door policy towards Indian investment, they allow it on a case by case basis. Do you know, for instance, that a significant proportion of the garment industry in Bangladesh is owned by Indians? the largest ex-pat Indian community in Dhaka is not Indian Bengalis but Gujaratis/Marwaris/Panjabis. They own textile companies but have to show a dummy Bangladeshi as an owner or a co-owner. The import of much cheaper Marutis in Bangladesh was severely restricted because a prominent Bangladeshi importer of refurbished Toyotas would not allow it, so Bangladeshis have to pay a much higher price to import a car from Japan instead of buying it from India.

And Bangladeshis are not Mexicans. Mexicans did not demand a country of their own, although they should because the whole of this territory was theirs a couple of centuries ago. And these attitudes have not yet changed. I met a Bangladeshi auto-riksha driver once in Dhaka. When he found out I was an Indo-Canadian he told me that he was a Hindu. I asked him why he had a kalima prominently displayed at the front of the riksha? He answered that he had to do it.


[I should add that at a personal level, my visit to Dhaka was a very pleasant one, most people were very warm and hospitable].

Re: # 127



Tavarish Amrita:

``nepalese would rather be nepalese than part of some akhand bharat. the incident i`m talking about occurred when some hindutva type went to nepal and was intoxicated enough by his view of the hindu rashtra to say that he hoped the day would dawn when they would all live in one big hindu rashtra. ``

Nor do I want Nepal to be a part of India. They are better by themselves. FYI, until the Angol-Nepal war some parts of india were in nepal and some parts of present nepal were in British india. There are enough states in india to make it a Hindu Rashtra ;)

``and fyi east bengal is the part that had the natural resources but west bengal is the part that handled the trade and manufacturing part of it. ``

I know that. Raw jute was in east and jute mills were in west (Calcutta) hence they wanted Calcutta. But the point I wsa making is if you already have the raw materials can`t you make the mills/manufacturing units? Didn`t east punjab undergo green revolution after partition. What was Japan. South Korea, Singapore 50 years back? Singapore infact even imports drinking water. As a sovereign nation, bangladeshis have to think about it by themselves, not push their responsibility on others. This impoverished nation refused to sell gas to india, refuses to allow indian transport convoy pass through its territory (even for transit fees), does it make any economic sense?

``strong arm tactics are the last thing any one with any sense will employ at this point ``

THis is something like ``ulta chor kotwal to daate``, If you won`t start factories inside our territory we will invade you with poor, illegal people. first you allow illegal migration and when we try to stop it you complain about ``strong-arm`` tactics. no one is talking about trashing bangladesh for no reason. There is no time or reason for it. Its just keep your people inside your borders. Is it too mush to ask?


``superpowers [as india keeps saying it wants to be] and especially ones with an ambition to sit on the UNSC, are far more subtle till pushed to the last resort.``
who cares about all this nonsense, you are drifting. Like a true communist, the illegal discussion is veering towards anti-india vitriolic. I don`t care about indias superpower status or UNSC seat, I just don`t want these bangladeshi muslims in my country.

````comrade`` is not an insult - it is a term of inclusiveness... you`ll have to do better i`m afraid.``

i didn`t want to insult you. If I wanted I would have, I have many nicnames for a communist. I just wanted to lighten the discussion.

snark,

there seems to be NO info available on the CMs conference on the net (in the brief time i spent looking for it)...it appears media just wasn`t interested in it....that, however, neither proves nor disproves the report of kanchan gupta...if you don`t believe her, unfortunately, you would have to show us that she was economical with truth.

as for me, i will tend to believe her in the absence of any contradictory reports...the comparison with a.roy is pointless...a.roy is a proven liar who had to publicly retract her allegations regarding the jaffery family...the not so surprising part was that she apologized just to the family, not to her readers, and not to the public in general...needless to say that it didn`t occur to her or to her supporters that her inflammatory report probably resulted in getting a few more hindus killed...and to the world at large who may not have read her apology, the incident still happened.

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Re: # 132
unless you work for the BSF, you`re in exactly the same boat as anyone else on this board. and even if you dont think so, the indian citizens in the north-east think so and they`ve made it more than clear.

on a more a general note, while discussing this topic, a friend said:
re: This silly business of sealing the borders: the US has not been able to seal itself of its southern borders. The mexicans cross it easily all the time.
Poverty forces migration. Always has, always will. To stop economic migration the only viable way is to improve the lot of the people in thatcountry. Political refugees, are far lesser and demand a different treatment.

and i would like to add that the US-mexico border is vast but easier to patrol compared to the Indo-Bangladeshi border.

Before we get all fuzzy about the bangladeshis, remember Gangtok, Itanagar, Imphal ,Kohima and Guwahati.Do we care what the people in these cities think about illegal migration of bangladeshis into india?.We must if we are indians.These indian cities are the ones most affected by the illegal migration of banglas.The people of this region DO NOT want bangladeshis into their territories.They have made it clear to the authorities. They are indians and have voiced their opposition and as an indian i must support them and fight against illegal immigration of bangladeshis into india.I have to consider the feelings of my fellow indians first.I am surprised to see indians arguing on the side of aliens and ignoring the feelings of their fellow indians.Thankfully, these people seemingly live outside india.Good riddance!!!!.

Re: # 129

ps - exactly where do i want to drag them into India? and the nepali q was a digression touched off by the rumination of some others on nepal ...

Re: # 129

that post was directed at the post below it and was countering the arguments made in it. again, you`re jumping the gun.

sealing the border is a very nice option theoretically. so havent any one of you wondered why the indian govt hasnt done it by now? all these years, no one thought - hey, why not seal the border? all those bsf men - the govts of seven states, and not one of them thought - hey, you know what we should do? we should seal the border!

its the FIRST option that comes to your mind. but that part of the border is very hard to seal. so you have to think on other lines. as for b`deshis refusing to accept it - you arent going to bully them into it. so get over that. what we need is pressure from multiple sources. as i wrote in 59.

if you have options other than ``seal the border`` and you dont like what i wrote in 59 - what are your ideas? its easy to jump up and down and condemn... let`s see some dialogue.

and fyi east bengal is the part that had the natural resources but west bengal is the part that handled the trade and manufacturing part of it. east bengal therefore got the poor agrarian part that had to start from scratch. read any bengali about the post partition years or talk to a b`deshi who remembers a pre-partition past and you will hear it from them.

India was not the one pushing partition. Bangladeshis were. And they still believe in it. Why should India entertain these characters?

And why are you dragging nepal into this? Seems like you are just muddying the discussion.

if india govt has not yet made the connection between economic relations and peace, then they are sillier than i thought they were.

The Indian govt has steadfastly been pursuing this option all these years. It`s time to resort to strong arm tactics. Not wars. Just brute froce fencing of the entire border. Seal the Bangladeshis in their own country.

Any humanatarian aid can be provided to Bangladeshis in their own country. No need to drag them into India.

I do not believe in the two nation theory. While I think it`s flawed and creaky, and despite incidents such as the post-Godhra riots, I believe that India does have a secular nature. Some people declared that hindus and muslims were two separate nations and as a result, a new state was created more than 50 years ago. After a civil war, part of one state gained independence more than 30 years ago. But can you hold individuals responsible today for what their state did more than 30 years ago ? Are you answerable for or completely okay with what Mrs. G did in 1975, 30 years ago?

Aha_snark, whether you believe in the two nation theory is irrelevant. Whether the Bangladeshis do is relevant. They still do otherwise we wouldn`t have them fomenting Islamic trouble in the north east. They do not believe in living with their Hindu brethren otherwise the Hindu population wouldn`t have been reduced to 10% from a high of 30% in 1947. If Bangladeshis publicly declare that the two nation theory is wrong and they would like to mend fences with India then I would not hold the individuals today responsible for what happened 50 years ago.

If someone has lived and worked here peacefully, quietly and diligently for 35 years, s/he should get some consideration for that. If they are born to someone who has lived and worked here for 35 years, if they do not know any country but India, then THOSE circumstances should also be taken into consideration when their fate is debated. And by default, we should not assume that every Bangladeshi illegal immigrant is a terrorist.

My anger is not directed towards somebody who has already been here for 35 years without causing any trouble. What`s done is done. I am in favour of stopping all illegal immigrants from Bangladesh.

Your suggestion of screening illegal immigrants from Bangladesh is ridiculous. How can you screen illegal immigrants? What kind of logic is that? If the Indian govt was able to screen illegal immigrants it would have stopped them completely. No country would allow illegal immigration (otherwise it would be known as legal immigration).

Indian govt can throw open its doors to legal immigration from Bangladesh but it should erect high barricades to completely stop all illegal immigration from Bangladesh otherwise India would be shooting itself in the foot again.

Re: # 126

pls read post 59. as for the maoists - sure. thats true. but for all their hindu faith, nepalese would rather be nepalese than part of some akhand bharat. the incident i`m talking about occurred when some hindutva type went to nepal and was intoxicated enough by his view of the hindu rashtra to say that he hoped the day would dawn when they would all live in one big hindu rashtra.

and fyi east bengal is the part that had the natural resources but west bengal is the part that handled the trade and manufacturing part of it. east bengal therefore got the poor agrarian part that had to start from scratch. read any bengali about the post partition years or talk to a b`deshi who remembers a pre-partition past and you will hear it from them.

if india govt has not yet made the connection between economic relations and peace, then they are sillier than i thought they were. strong arm tactics are the last thing any one with any sense will employ at this point and i am slowly beginning to have faith in India`s foreign policy. the kind of thuggery that so many people seem to advocate falls in the realm of a country unsure of its own strength - a bully among nations. superpowers [as india keeps saying it wants to be] and especially ones with an ambition to sit on the UNSC, are far more subtle till pushed to the last resort.

oh, and btw, ``comrade`` is not an insult - it is a term of inclusiveness... you`ll have to do better i`m afraid.

Re: # 122

Comrade Amrita:

All your talk about indian government effort to help bengla govt. to stem illegal immigraiton is nonsense. How can you/indian givernment even talk to them when they DO NOT acknowledge that there are any bangladeshis staying illegally in india. Nor do they think that bangladeshis are filtering across the border. They refuse to undertake joint patrolling. Anyhow, indian companies are establishing plants in bangladesh not because of the govt effort to check illegal immigration but because the human labor is cheap there.

``the root problem with b`desh is that they`re poor and with partition were cut off from the more prosperous part of bengal. if you want them to stay in their country and out of ours, what we need is less chest thumping and more action of the nonviolent kind - the indian govt, i was pleased to note is already encouraging Indian companies to invest in that country. with more economic development, our headaches ought to decrease. ``

THe more prosperous part of Bengal is West Bengal? Bangladesh has far more greater natural resources than W.B. Its main problem is unprecedented population growth, mismanagement of resources, corruption. (its the most corrupt country in the world) Its the human resources that make a company/country. Look at Japan, Singapore.
Whatever the root problem is, it belongs to the people and the government of Bangladesh. Bangladesh is a sovereign Islamic country. if the people of Georgia decide to immigrate illegally to india you would advise the indian government to set up factories in Georgia? Wake up this is not the era of singing ``The Internationale< I>``.


``apparently the nepalese hindu fundos themselves got terrifically angry and called indians a whole lot of names coz of the perceived indian hegemony. :)) seems like nation is greater than religion for them.``

I think you have stopped reading the Maoist/Leninist news lately. Do you even know that a Dawood Ibrahim henchman, a india born Muslim Mr. Baig was in the forefront of anti-india venom. He got killed, probably by RAW. Also, all this anti-india stance is from the Maobadis, the communist rascals. One of their demand is to change Nepal from a Hindu-nation to a ``secular`` nation. When former President Narayanan visited Nepal the communist parties greeted him with black flags while they will bend backwards for their Chinese masters.