Linking Poverty and Population

# 24
learn to make sense. not sure what the hell you were talking about. how are kashmir and gwadar related?

Re: # 23

trust me, its a lot hotter in india than it is in pakistan. pakistanis dont chicken out in the face of heat. and there will no longer be power outages, as its been solved since the major electrical company has been privatized to a wealthy saudi business group. good luck to your people keeping cool in the hellish heat of mumbai.

#21

so be it. just cause the US wants india to become a regional superpower, is by no means a guarantee india wil become that superpower. yes, india has a large enough economy to be a global force. however, if india or indians think they can dominate pakistan, they`ve got other things coming. china will never allow india to become a force other than what it sees fit for india. india will always just be a second fiddle to china. pakistans geostrategic importance is not about economic power. however, that day too will come. for the time being, pakistan occupied a most key area of the world. the US wants to maintain healthy relationships with both, as they cannot ignore either one now, for different reasons albeit. as i said, pakistan can become an energy corridor from iran and the CAR`s. pakistan has cemented its relations with those countries, so you can expect major dividends from that relationship, as there is massive oil and gas there. cayenne still believe iran is india`s best friend, even though khatami and the iranian foreign minister have all said that pakistans and iran`s relationship goes back a long way. iran has every interest to see a stable pakistan, just as pakistan has every interest to use iran for its future energy needs, which are going to rise exponentially as the economy sky rockets, which is already underway. the iran-india-pakistan relationship is not a zero sum game, as some indians would want it to be. for some stupid reasons indians believe iran is going to be friends with india at the expense of pakistan. it defies all logic.

#20

first of all, the SU-30 is NOT the most advanced fighter in the world. its a $30 million dollar aircraft. the F-22 is a $120 million dollar aircraft. pakistans newest falcons are all going to be $40 million each. so please dont make stupid indian statements like that again. the F-22 raptor would eat your pilots and the plane up for lunch. the Sukhoi couldnt even hang with an F-15C. the indian air force had to beg the americans not to use their AWACS against them in the last cope india. the F-15 is a much less capable fighter than the raptor. no aircraft, except the raptor for the most part, is unbeatable. remember that. pakistans upcoming F-16s are big trouble for the Sukhois, which is why your PM had to bitc# to george bush and richard armitage, who all told him to `shut the hell up!` haha. as for india having the 6th largest air force, so be it. this might be true. unfortunately, you guys seem intent on having your flying coffins drop like bird shit all over india. perhaps before you brag about something like that you should give your pilots some time to actually learn how to fly!!

Re: # 19 taqat-e-parvaaz

``that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. ``

Mr.TEP, good to hear that Pakistan is going have a Dubai in 20 years. Why don`t you in Pak work on it with full energy and resources and abandon all this kashmir mess for another 20 years. This is all that we want too!!!

Re: # 22

Not to mention ``power`` cuts!!.Already you guys are experiencing power cuts of 20 hours or more in many areas of the city.I hope you keep cool.

From the economic point of view I believe that the population growth is going to have a major impact on the prices of property in Karachi when people move to the city from all over Pakistan. Prices of all other commodities like fuel, transportation and food will also rise, further lowering the standard of living of the people of Karachi. In other words, Karachi will experience inflation rates higher than the rest of Pakistan making it more difficult for the residents of Karachi to maintain their quality of life.

Re: 19.....Just had to say one thing about your continued comments on Pakistan`s ``greater geopolitical relevance`` in comparison to India. I hate to disappoint you mate but while the 80s US backed Afghan war against the ``red menace`` and the current ``war on terror`` on deranged jihadists across your tribal regions and Afghanistan again...plus all this hullabaloo about Central Asian oil withstanding..the reality is if you look at the fundamental shift in US policy towards engaging with and to some extent helping India become the regional superpower..that itself should logically tell which nation has greater geopolitical importance. Why...because inspite of the above reasons...the US is far more worried about a certain growing economic and (perhaps later military) collosus called China. A giant that is completely indemocratic and already causing massive trade deficits for the US...and India just happens to be a bit closer to the new ``red menace``......shares a huge border for that matter...and with other realities like the South-East Asian region eventually becoming the global economic hub..and India forming ever closer links with ASEAN...the results are even more obvious. The ``war on terror`` aint gonna last forever..and central asian energy while very important..could well be neutralisaed to some extent by genuine demand in developed nations for true alternative energy sources...and/or maybe as in the case for the US..a return to nucleur powered energy..which for its potential of rare high risk disasters..are extremely energy efficient. So my question is...when there is no hunt the fundo game on...and energy sources are more diversified...where does that leave your geo-political importance in the scheme of global relations.

Re: # 19

....If india didn`t want the pipeline, the pipeline wouldn`t exist.Even iran, with it`s oil revenue doesn`t have the money we indians have.Infact, we indians will be providing livelihood to thousands of pakistanis through the pipeline.That`s why we want to make sure you guys play ball.Meanwhile , the US and Japan are wooing us away from the pipeline deal with alternate energy means!!.India has the 4th largest armed forces in the world, the 6th largest air force.The indian armed forces supply spares and service most of the armed forces of south and south east asia.The Sukhoi-30 is manufactured ground up in india.It is the most advanced jet fighter in the world, even over the F-22.Check Jane`s Weekly.Spares and servicing of malaysia`s Sukhoi-30`s are exclusively under indian contract.I`m giving you an example.Iran and India have had over 40 years of close relations.Iran has always supported india`s stance in all international fora.Iran`s president was chief guest of Abdul Kalam at last year`s republic day celebrations.If Iran wants to go ahead with pakistan directly on the pipeline deal, why hasn`t anything happened?.Oh, and i forgot, the balochis can`t stand the rest of you paks.Gwadar?.Acc. to ``Pakistan This Week`` , the paks are looking to inidan merchant ships to use gwadar and other ports as there is too much traffic into india (ports are congested) and india`s merchant navy fleet is one of the largest in the world.Colombo and Singapore are the main transit ports for goods into india and one of their main sources of revenue.Have a good weekend.

Re: # 17

perhaps you should have read my post a bit more carefully. i didnt say pakistan and iran will forge close ties. pakistan and iran have a good understanding with each other. if you indians think you have iran on `your side` your delusional. iran has a good understanding with india, but despite indian propaganda its clear that its not at the expense of pakistan. what i stated was that pakistans geostrategic importance far outweighs that of india`s, and that in the future will be the key to pakistans economic growth. no country can ignore pakistan. anyone aware of geopolitics will be aware of this. with this in mind, pakistan can be of help to iran and iran can help pakistan with future energy needs, which the two countries are already in the process of working out. i believe iran even stated that should india not want to join the gas pipeline can commence without it. thats not what i call deep ties. however, for any of the pipelines to be successful, pakistan MUST be involved. dont think musharraf and the rest of our policymakers dont understand this. the central asian republics will become energy corridors in the future, as because they are landlocked they will need to transport and receive energy through other countries. enter gwadar port. as i said, this is a standing challenge of mine, that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. theres no doubt in anyones mind of this. and china will continue to have stakes in pakistans economic success. the chinese are willing to do just about anything to ensure pakistan becomes economically successful. in addition, pakistan will continue to benefit from the chinese arms industry, something india cannot think of for the foreseable future. pakistan will be getting armed with JF-17s, and in the future with the advanced J-10 (which the US navy itself has said could be serious trouble for the F-18 super hornet). india will be left with a struggling russian industry to rely on. the americans will want a piece of the pie, but india has historically been short sighted to let the americans sell them weapons. an economically prosperous and well armed pakistan is always going to be a thorn in the side of india should kashmir not be resolved. trust me, disputes do not take precedence over economics. the world community can step in at any time and force india to the table. they dont care all that much for your market. no one wants to see 1/5 of humanity go up in smoke. and thats exactly where india is headed should it continue to sit on its ass.

Re: # 16
I got one more article for you to learn how indian enterprise , hard work and ingenuity is responsible for our economic success......nothing succeeds like success.....

Subcontinent turning into supercompetitor
The Economist
April 5, 2005 WORLDLEDE0405

A gleaming silver prototype of a sport-utility vehicle was one of the stars of the recent Geneva motor show. What made it particularly noteworthy was that, in two years, it will roll off the production line not in Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Detroit or Tokyo, but Pune -- two hours by road from Mumbai, the commercial capital of India.

Five years ago it would have been inconceivable for a vehicle from India to turn heads at such an international gathering. Back then, the gamble by India`s Tata group to enter the car business was widely predicted to drag down its flagship Telco business (now called Tata Motors).

Its first indigenous car, the little Indica, was hit by quality problems and won less than half of its expected share of India`s growing domestic market. Telco reported huge losses in 1998-99.

But Ratan Tata, chairman of the 80-firm conglomerate that is India`s largest private enterprise, stuck to his guns. Cars are a big part of his ambitious vision. Tata, the nephew of J.R.D. Tata, a leading industrialist in the days of British rule, succeeded his uncle in 1991 as chairman of the group`s holding company, just as India started to liberalize its economy.

Tata was a sprawling empire in which 300 firms went their own ways. Tata took the group by the scruff of the neck, quit crowded markets, such as textiles and cement, and licked other firms into shape. But his bold move into cars was a turning point, as the group became aggressively expansionist.

In 2000, Tata spent $435 million to buy Tetley Tea, a British business with a global brand -- the first big foreign acquisition by an Indian company. The idea was to move downstream from just selling leaves from Tata`s tea plantations. But other international acquisitions in trucks, telecoms and steel offer Tata an even bigger opportunity to make its mark outside India, as does its flourishing information technology business.

Already 22 percent of group sales are outside India. None of this could have come about if the move into cars had proved a disaster. Telco`s losses were caused partly by a severe cyclical downturn in the truck market. Tata`s response was to cut jobs by 40 percent and halve the number of suppliers to 600. This was not easy to do in India, with its rigid labor laws. After a three-year struggle, the Indica and its bigger version, the Indigo, began to overcome early problems and now account for around one-quarter of the markets for small and medium-sized vehicles.

Tata recalls that in 1995, when he decided to enter the passenger-car market, he could have taken the usual route with a joint venture. Toyota and Volkswagen had been talking to him. Instead, he pursued his dream of making Tata Motors the flagship of his $14 billion empire.

Today it is the biggest group business by sales and, only seven years after producing its first car, makes a net pretax profit margin of about 10 percent -- putting it in select company with the leading Japanese and South Korean carmakers and ahead of its main domestic rival. Today, the group`s firms are in eight sectors. The average Tata holding in each firm is 25 percent, but in flagship businesses, such as Tata Motors, Tata Steel and Tata Consulting Services (TCS), it is 65 percent or more.

Last summer, Tata floated 14 percent of the shares of TCS, an IT business started by Tata engineers in 1968, long before such Bangalore outsourcing merchants as Infosys and Wipro Technologies had been heard of. The float valued the firm at $11 billion. It netted Tata more than $1 billion, propelling the group back atop Indian business.

Tata will retire in just under three years, when he reaches 70. Before he goes, he wants to launch a revolutionary ``1 lakh car`` -- one that sells for 100,000 rupees, or $2,000. Tata would make the body panels and sell kits to small firms that would create jobs assembling the cars in rural workshops. The idea is to have a ``people`s car`` made by the people.

``When I see four or five members of a family cling to one little scooter, I become determined to provide a low-cost family car between the scooter and normal models,`` he said.


http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5329471.html

Re: # 16


The day pakistan and iran will forge close relations will be the day hell freezes over!!.India has always had more influence and still does, with iran than pakistan has ever had.We are comparing ourselves with china, and we are even developing china`s software industry in exchange for hardware technology expertise from them.Afghanistan`s president is a product of india`s educational system , under the old socialist regime.After the US, India is the largest investor in Afghanistan.China and India are the last two mega markets left in the world that have yet to be fully exploited.We are enjoying several revolutions, economic, cultural, eductional and political and China and India are responsible for making Asia the center of attention of the world again.Forget `Kashmir`.The LoC it is.I don`t mean it arrogantly.The corporates have more influence over the world than politicians.That`s how it is.

Re: # 10

ummmm...not really. i`m a realist. yes, india is a bigger economy. but pakistan too has extreme significance in the area, and it can be an equal to india in the not too distant future. dont expect pakistan to accept second fiddle to india. pakistans geostrategic importance far outstrips that of india`s. its in a much more important position, being next to oil rich iran and afghanistan. never forget that. pakistan doesnt need india anymore than india needs pakistan. india is not some developed country yet my friend. since you guys love comparing yourself, compare yourselves to china. that ought to put things into perspective. having 1 billion people tends to naturally magnify economic success, since even minimal economic growth will be multiplied significantly. look at china`s economy then look at india`s. both are the same population. pakistans economic cooperation with india is a far off thing. until india can behave itself and act like the `superpower` it is so destined to become and start following UN resolutions and solve kashmir, there is little chance pakistan will `forge` anything with india. our policymakers have china to rely on, and gwadar port (which will be the most advanced city in south asia in 20 years. this is a standing challenge of mine) is ample proof of this. india will never catch up with china. it will always be the most dominant economy in the area, and pakistan will always benefit from it.

Re: # 14

Exactly! I couldn`t agree with you more on this one, cayenne :-)~~

We generally yap about poverty and ask why it`s growing. Then we expect the govts to eliminate it, but we don`t want to contribute. Not that the real masters of our govts, i.e. World Bank or IMF will allow our politicians and leaders to do that. They just fart out the rhetoric and print doctored reports to justify more loans and higher interest rates. Last but not least, we wait for a reliable NGO or charity to come along so we could chip in our two bits. We simply do not take the initiative.

Why can`t we simply be an NGO of an individual or two? We don`t have to feed, clothe, shelter, or educate the entire nation. All we have to do is to help only one person at a time whether anyone else does it or not. We don`t even have to register with the govt.

Just like the western countries pretty soon more of us will join us in this effort and the whole community will begin to prosper. It will create such a people`s power that our dummy govts will be forced to do their share. Otherwise, as is the case now, just yapping about it allows the politicians to make false promises only to renege on them, and it continues all over again in subsequent elections.

Both India and Pakistan are in the same boat when it comes to devastating poverty and its side effects. India`s larger economy, more buying power, etc are only indicative of her larger area and population. If you convert the 34% and 24% for Pakistan and India respectively, the actual number for India will be much larger than Pakistan. Whereas, not even one person deserves to go hungry, die of cold or heat in either of our countries. Being neighbors, it is simply not in either of our interests to allow poverty to grow. Because regardless of where it is, it will spill across the border in different forms and affect the other sooner or later. There are many such examples present around the world.

So, all this comparison between the two countries is nothing more than a waste of time. What the two countries should do is to

(a) break away from the divide-and-rule policies of our western masters, and

(b) join heads and address this problem collectively

instead of wasting our resources on weaponry. Together the professionals, armies, and general populations can remove this cancer from this region in no time. But the key step is (a).

Cheers

Re: # 13

Food for thought.People in western countries share more of their wealth(charitable works and donations for e.g.) and maybe that`s why there is more wealth to go around!!.In my country a fat wealthy man or woman would rather throw extra food out than take the trouble to go find a poor kid and share it with.I`m talking about extra/excess food and not that which one essentially consumes.A lot of injustice still exists.Who will take the first step?.We also talk, but don`t do much, do we?.

The Nuclear Family Explosion

The hatemongers here should acknowledge their luck that thier parents did not drop them in a condom or obliterated them with spermicide or aborted them before they saw any form of light. And that luck does not entitle them to take away the last remaining right of the poor for his survival. Failure or success, the poor has to take this chance since all other alternatives have been barred on him.

Today if poor reduce reproduction globally, probably in just 2 generations there will be a global shortage of labour due to various other enviromental and social elements. Then again the people will have to be incented and encouraged to go forth and multiply exponentially to fulfill that requirement. Many European countries, N America, and Australia are faced with this problem as we speak. Hence, we witness an explosion of emigration incentives from these regions.

This family planning campaign has been forced by the historical hunters and gatherers (modern day Darwinians) of the mankind since WWII, and it is primarily based on greed. Agrarian societies could not survive without manpower. As it stands, even the contemporary industrial and capitalistic societies could not survive without the cheap labour within or abroad. Please study the emancipation of women and slaves in the West to find the correlation.

The growing poverty across the globe is not merely an abundance of ``oops`` by the 3rd World people of child bearing age, particularly Muslim. It is a corrupt design by the ones who create suburbs and ghettos right next to each other; who create one millionaire at the expense of a million people struggling to make ends meet; by the ones at the top who (despite the poor fiscal corporate perfomance) continue to enjoy ``perks, scheduled remuneration rises and bonuses`` whilst the people on assembly lines are laid-off and furloughed in droves to reduce ``expenses``.

The link between poverty and populations is just that of statistics... to hide the reality and perpetuate corruption. The real cause of poverty, and recently growing one at an alarming rate throughout the world, is not the growth of population. Instead it is the unbridled growth of corruption and hording.

The UN campaign is utterly misguided if not downright evil, to say the least. No one can keep humans from procreating - a God-given right for all. Free contraceptives run out after a while and increasingly the poor doesn`t have the resources to purchase more that would suffice his/her sexual ``needs``.

How fair is it of `haves` to demand of the poor to become celibate if he/she cannot afford birthcontrol, while they literally screw their lives away with the help of pills, creams, surgeries, books on how to attract the opposite sex and maximize sexual bliss, etc etc etc??? Then these people have the nerve to claim themselves as righteous, just, proponents of equal rights, purveyors of freedom, and blah blah blah.

Interestingly the UN or any national campaign does not mention the explosion of illegitmate births when asking people to reduce their populations. Because then they would have to put down the foot against the globally endemic and out of control illegitimate births due to pre-marital sex, extra-marital sex, incest, rapes of all kinds, and prostitution which includes the organized UN workers in different parts of the world. That would cramp a lot of lifestyles of the rich, famous, and corrupt in power.

Before anything else, this category must be curbed because it breeds irresponsibility, abortion, infantacide, child abuse, crime amongst youngsters, slave trade, and you name it. Because it breaks up the basic human insititution called Home. Not only the parents of these children, but communities at large and governments find it very difficult to care for these children so they sweep the issue under the rug. At best they fleetingly allude to it without prosposing any viable solutions. Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, everyone and anyone who suggests abstinence is either blasted or ignored.

How fair is it of the rich and ``enlightened`` ones to screw around like bunnies, produce illegitimate children by truck loads and then walk out on them with impunity; then turn around and demand that the poor should not breed Legitimately?

Even today, only the ``7th century Arabian Islam`` tackles this corruption most adeptly;-)~~ Its swift and severe punishment for irresponsible behavior, and rewards for taking on as much responsibility as humanly possible; i.e. out of wedlock sexual activity and marriage including polygamy respectively, maintain the balance in community. Many self-proclaimed ``liberals`` here, especially women, only cry about veils in Islam and remain silent when imbeciles assert that ``prostitutes are most liberal women`` and ``it (prostitution) is a human need``.

Secondly, most common folks including myself have become numb to the needs of the poor - either an individual or a nation - in lieu of our wants. For example, we find it difficult to sacrifice our entertainment just so a poor could be fed. We just talk the talk here, but seldom have the courage to put our money where out mouths are.

Be that as it may, religion [of which Islam is the only one that exists in its original form - the 7th century Arabian one ;-)~~] throughout the mankind history has been the only system to adress this problem effectively. It asks of people to just focus on their basic needs and learn to live within their means whilst sharing the rest of their resources with the less fortunate ones.

Instead first we reduced the religion - all of them - from a comprehensive communal way of life to merely a set of rituals performed privately by individauls in daily life and annually as communities. Then we adopted the habit to convert our frivolous wishes into ``MUST HAVE`` needs and seek loans and credits, and endlessly chase materials in a futile effort to live beyond our means. Soon enough most people find themselves sliding towards poverty due to resulting negative net worth. The ones on chowk may be the fortunate ones to have survived that, but their reality doesn`t apply to the global population.

Has anyone ever wondered why banks don`t offer credits to the unemployed - the ones who really deserve financial support? Because it`s not about offering conveniences or national economic growth. It is about swindling whatever little bit money employed can save or share with the family and less fortunate people. Such swindling is not only legal, but popularly accepted by the gullible masses so they could chase their materialistic dreams incognizant of the continuously changing nature of these as soon as the new models of sought out materials are dumped into the market.

Can anyone still challenge Allah on why He strictly forbade usury and strongly discourages loans until it`s a matter of life & death? And even then one should only borrow the minimum to survive on. Allah then vehemently stresses on the ones He has blessed to help the needy as much as possible and forego the loans if borrowers cannot pay back easily. He promises to reward such selfless and kind people, and reward He does.

We should be able to see the rewards of charity in our own lives. For a macro view, pick any well-to-do society regardless of religion or race, and we`ll find such acts of kindness of the haves with the poor enable the latter to fare well. Meanwhile, the former not only retain their wealth, in most case it continues to grow in many different forms. Consequently, the whole community thrives. It`s one of the Signs of Allah`s Greatness that a person can only see with the real eye - the mind.

Simply put, survival of people must take precedence over materialistic desires. Unfortunately, even a large majority of Muslims have deviated from this basic principle of Islam. Hence, we see the enormous poverty amongst Muslim countries, not that India and other 3rd world non-Muslim countries fare any better. Even in the advanced countries like US, UK, Australia the widening gap between the rich and poor continues to gain more momentum by day. Interestingly, most of the poor in these countries are non-whites ;-)~~

I hope the people who can read Urdu will find the article at the following link very educational in this context:

Bachay Kam Khoshaal Ghirana - Haqeeqat ya Afsana? (Family Planning - Fact or Fiction?)