Linking Poverty and Population

taqat-e-parvaaz #19

perhaps you should have read my post a bit more carefully. i didnt say pakistan and iran will forge close ties. pakistan and iran have a good understanding with each other. if you indians think you have iran on `your side` your delusional. iran has a good understanding with india, but despite indian propaganda its clear that its not at the expense of pakistan.

`` what i stated was that pakistans geostrategic importance far outweighs that of india`s, ``

What is basis for such grandiose statements ?

`` pakistan. anyone aware of geopolitics will be aware of this. with this in mind, pakistan can be of help to iran and iran can help pakistan with future energy needs, which the two ``

what help is Pakistan exactly to Iran ? Making condoms ??

`` ties. however, for any of the pipelines to be successful, pakistan MUST be involved. dont think musharraf and the rest of our policymakers dont understand this. the central asian republics will become energy corridors in the future, as because they are landlocked they will need to transport and receive energy through other countries. enter gwadar port. ``

Whether Gawadar port is used Central Asian republics have other options that do not involve Pakistan -
selling directly to China
selling directly to Russia
pipeline to Iran
pipeline through Caspian Sea and Georgia to the Black Sea

`` pakistan becomes economically successful. in addition, pakistan will continue to benefit from the chinese arms industry, something india cannot think of for the foreseable future. pakistan will be getting armed with JF-17s, and in the future with the advanced J-10 (which the US navy itself has said could be serious trouble for the F-18 super hornet). india will be left with a struggling russian industry to rely on. the americans will want a piece of the pie, ``

China JF-17 and J-10 are powered with engine prototypes from the struggling Russian industry. If Chinese weapons industry was advanced they would not be the largest buyer of Russian weapons.

`` but india has historically been short sighted to let the americans sell them weapons. ``

Who was been begging the USA for F-16s and F-16 spare parts ?

`` an economically prosperous and well armed pakistan is always going to be a thorn in the side of india should kashmir not be resolved. trust me, disputes do not take precedence over economics. the world community can step in at any time and force india to the table. they dont care all that much for your market. no one wants to see 1/5 of humanity go up in smoke. and thats exactly where india is headed should it continue to sit on its ass.``

It is easier for the world community to pressure Pakistan than India

Re: # 31

Dude, why the hell are you frothing all over the place? From Kashmir to Cold war.

``however, pakistan today can still be a thorn should things change.``

I know that, Pak can once again be an irritant. And india will definitely respond to it when it is necessary. but as long as there is peace we welcome it.

``as i said, we dont need to be rich or prosperous to fight india.``
I know that too. last 5 decades are testimony to that. But we don`t want to waste our time fighting with you, we have many other better things to do. Hence, use your resources to make pak rich and prosperous and we will take care of ourself.

``yes, i remember kargil. india had to run to the US to buy coffins for its 500+ dead soldiers, devastated by a hail of bullets from SSG commandos and the Northern Light Infantry in under 2 months. the americans didnt lose that many men in iraq for 8 months! gives you an idea of how devastating kargil was for `mighty` india. as i`ve said, drop the inferiority complex now. india doesnt have the balls to harm pakistan, and pakistan has the brains to understand that any confrontation will be mutually destructive.``

india did pay a high price for its complacency, no one is denying it. The point is: we remember who was the artichitect of Kargil. And what has made him from a butcher to a peace-maker. Kargil just shows indias determination to go to any extent, to shed any amount of blood to defend even an inch of kashmir. I also remember how Sharif ran to Clinton uninvited, and how Clinton asked him not to come to Washington unless he pulls pak forces out of IOK. FYI, when are you guys going to claim and give a decent burial to those commandos/SSG/NIF men who were left dying in indian territory. Indian army had to burial them. Infact till now Pak maintains that there were no NLI men in IOK. Shame on you and on Mushy for denying the families of the soldiers their dead sons/husbands/brothers. I am not for any war with pak or ``harming`` pak. I told you earlier itself, we don`t care about pak there are many other things we have to attend to.

``drop the inferiority complex now.``
whatever dude.


``therefore, its in india`s best interest to solve kashmir. ``

I also agree to it. Its in the best interest of both the nations to do so. India keep IOK, Pak keep POK. problem solved.

india wanted to take advantage of 911 and label pak also as terrorist nations because it was a common knowledge about who fathered Taliban. Ofcourse, when pak agreed to prostitute itself once again and abandoned Taliban indias game was over. Pak had to bend over or else today pak would have been a medieval landmass.


``india has always done anything to somehow get into bed with uncle sam, ``

India has historically opposed u.s. and has been close to the soviet. But as time change priorities change to.

``remember india during the cold war? india`s only friend was russia, which was busy getting its butt whooped by the mujahideen.``

Russia helped india when it mattered the most. It was with the russian help that india whooped paks ass in 71. Indias defence hardware is 75% russian. when the west refused them russia offered it. Still we never had russian forces on our soil unlike you, i guess you can get everything out of pak for the dollars thrown at it. and yes scenarios change hence india is buying from u.s./israel/russia/france/sweden. Even pak wants russian pdts. soviets failed in afg due to many reasons not solely becuase of muj. The ideology itself collapsed.

``the US didnt even want to spit on india in those days.``

yes, they just spitted on paks face and they still do it to the present day.

Re: # 29

pakistan doesnt have to be prosperous or rich to deal with india. yes, an economically prosperous pakistan will be a bigger thorn in india`s side. however, pakistan today can still be a thorn should things change. as i said, we dont need to be rich or prosperous to fight india. yes, i remember kargil. india had to run to the US to buy coffins for its 500+ dead soldiers, devastated by a hail of bullets from SSG commandos and the Northern Light Infantry in under 2 months. the americans didnt lose that many men in iraq for 8 months! gives you an idea of how devastating kargil was for `mighty` india. as i`ve said, drop the inferiority complex now. india doesnt have the balls to harm pakistan, and pakistan has the brains to understand that any confrontation will be mutually destructive. therefore, its in india`s best interest to solve kashmir. unless of course your government loves to flush tax dollars down the drain (perhaps thats why the LCA and other indian defence projects are still in the doldrums). as for images in the west, yes pakistan was a sideline state before 911. but even in that situation, india couldnt help but gyrate her hips for uncle sam to get his attention. india would have loved for powell to have made that call in delhi. the indian foreign ministry would have been doing the bhangra the whole night. and this is fact. so dont deny it. india has always done anything to somehow get into bed with uncle sam, somehow thinking that by doing so uncle sam will forget about pakistan. pakistan and musharraf didnt make a reactionary move. it was extremely calculated on the army`s part. world scenarios change. no one predicted 9/11. remember india during the cold war? india`s only friend was russia, which was busy getting its butt whooped by the mujahideen. the US didnt even want to spit on india in those days. a country`s interests change with the times. pakistan takes care of its interests. its as simple as that.

Re: # 28



``i know musharraf is friendly towards the indians. ``

thats the reason he orchestrated Kargil? His new found friendhip stems from changed geopolitical realities.

``theres a reason he`s so well respected everywhere in the world. ``

Do you know paks status before 911. Respected? His arms were twisted by Bush to become the frontline state. Can you imagine what would have happened of Pak if Mushy boy would not have agreed to Bushy. There would been no difference b/t pak and afghanistan. Mushy in order to save pak sacrified taliban.

Re: # 25
``learn to make sense. not sure what the hell you were talking about. how are kashmir and gwadar related? ``

wasn`t it you who said that Gwadar very soon is going to become Dubai for Pak and later on said that prosperous Pak will be a thorn to india should Kashmir be not resolved. Apart from Gwadar you havnt mentoined any other reason for economic prosperity. Jesus, atleast read what you are posting. Heres a part of you thesis for your perusal.

``as i said, this is a standing challenge of mine, that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. theres no doubt in anyones mind of this. ``
``an economically prosperous and well armed pakistan is always going to be a thorn in the side of india should kashmir not be resolved.``

You are talking about how properous pak is going to be in near future (i.e. 20 years) courtesy Gwadar. Hence, my comment: we will be ready to deal with you in 20 years or whenever pak is prosperous and well armed as long as currently you don`t stoke the Kashmir fire and concentrate on making pak prosperous and fully armed.

I hope you understand it this time. good luck.

Re: # 27

i am well aware of the MKI and its capabilities. no doubt its a good fighter. i never denied that. however, i would take american technology any day over russian technology, which has stagnated (no one in their right mind can deny this) in comparison to the US. the F-16s pakistan will get (have no doubt about this. its only a matter of time. all attempts to block it have been effectively countered by the pakistani ambassador and the pakistani caucus on capitol hill. the indian lobby has lost. accept it) will be either the Block 52 plus (C/D), or the newest Block 60 (E/F), which were delivered to and manufactured exclusively for the UAE. there is talk either the saudis or the UAE may help pakistan finance this new beast should the americans be willing to sell it. its a $60 million dollar aircraft. there is still talk that it is possible. the block 60 has an active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar, which means it could detect the MKI even before it got in the air!! the MKI would be toast within seconds, as two AIM missiles come at it at the speed of sound. the F-16 is the original multi role aircraft. its world known to have unbelievable deep penetration capabilities without detection. all pilots who have flown the F-16 have said that they would not fly anything else.
i am aware that the MKI is being manufactured in india. its not a big deal. transfer of technology is common among allies. pakistan manufactures the latest french submarines and a host of other technology. its not new my friend. in the meantime, lose the inferiority complex. i know musharraf is friendly towards the indians. theres a reason he`s so well respected everywhere in the world. however, indians seem hell bent on turning his hospitality into renewed hostility. so spare me the lecture. i will be polite when indians learn to behave.

Re: # 25

I got one more set of Mumbai pics......

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981&page=12&pp=20

A fyi on the Sukhoi-30......
The Sukhoi 30MKI is a twin-engined, multi role fighter which can be simultaneously operated as a interceptor, bomber and trainer. It is equipped with all-weather day and night flying capabilities and can carry eight tones of weapons, including air-to-air, air-to-surface missiles and mid course guided aerial bombs and rockets. It can fly upto 3,000 kms without refuelling. The aircraft is fitted with indigenously developed equipment like mission and radar computers, radar warning and a communication systems.

These are manufactured in india NOW.Your much bally-hooed F-16 deal is still stuck in the US congress.And, a congressman has also counter introduced a resolution disallowing the sale.In the meantime, a little politeness towards us would be nice.Look at Musharaf and learn.

Re: # 25

Oye, taqat......take it easy, brother.The elec. cuts i mentioned is a fact.There`s been a lot of load shedding going on in Karachi lately.Hopefully, the Saudis will fix it for karachi-ites.We all need to stay cool in summer!!.As for Mumbai......i got some pics for you.....cut and paste and enjoy!!...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981&page=15&pp=20

# 24
learn to make sense. not sure what the hell you were talking about. how are kashmir and gwadar related?

Re: # 23

trust me, its a lot hotter in india than it is in pakistan. pakistanis dont chicken out in the face of heat. and there will no longer be power outages, as its been solved since the major electrical company has been privatized to a wealthy saudi business group. good luck to your people keeping cool in the hellish heat of mumbai.

#21

so be it. just cause the US wants india to become a regional superpower, is by no means a guarantee india wil become that superpower. yes, india has a large enough economy to be a global force. however, if india or indians think they can dominate pakistan, they`ve got other things coming. china will never allow india to become a force other than what it sees fit for india. india will always just be a second fiddle to china. pakistans geostrategic importance is not about economic power. however, that day too will come. for the time being, pakistan occupied a most key area of the world. the US wants to maintain healthy relationships with both, as they cannot ignore either one now, for different reasons albeit. as i said, pakistan can become an energy corridor from iran and the CAR`s. pakistan has cemented its relations with those countries, so you can expect major dividends from that relationship, as there is massive oil and gas there. cayenne still believe iran is india`s best friend, even though khatami and the iranian foreign minister have all said that pakistans and iran`s relationship goes back a long way. iran has every interest to see a stable pakistan, just as pakistan has every interest to use iran for its future energy needs, which are going to rise exponentially as the economy sky rockets, which is already underway. the iran-india-pakistan relationship is not a zero sum game, as some indians would want it to be. for some stupid reasons indians believe iran is going to be friends with india at the expense of pakistan. it defies all logic.

#20

first of all, the SU-30 is NOT the most advanced fighter in the world. its a $30 million dollar aircraft. the F-22 is a $120 million dollar aircraft. pakistans newest falcons are all going to be $40 million each. so please dont make stupid indian statements like that again. the F-22 raptor would eat your pilots and the plane up for lunch. the Sukhoi couldnt even hang with an F-15C. the indian air force had to beg the americans not to use their AWACS against them in the last cope india. the F-15 is a much less capable fighter than the raptor. no aircraft, except the raptor for the most part, is unbeatable. remember that. pakistans upcoming F-16s are big trouble for the Sukhois, which is why your PM had to bitc# to george bush and richard armitage, who all told him to `shut the hell up!` haha. as for india having the 6th largest air force, so be it. this might be true. unfortunately, you guys seem intent on having your flying coffins drop like bird shit all over india. perhaps before you brag about something like that you should give your pilots some time to actually learn how to fly!!

Re: # 19 taqat-e-parvaaz

``that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. ``

Mr.TEP, good to hear that Pakistan is going have a Dubai in 20 years. Why don`t you in Pak work on it with full energy and resources and abandon all this kashmir mess for another 20 years. This is all that we want too!!!

Re: # 22

Not to mention ``power`` cuts!!.Already you guys are experiencing power cuts of 20 hours or more in many areas of the city.I hope you keep cool.

From the economic point of view I believe that the population growth is going to have a major impact on the prices of property in Karachi when people move to the city from all over Pakistan. Prices of all other commodities like fuel, transportation and food will also rise, further lowering the standard of living of the people of Karachi. In other words, Karachi will experience inflation rates higher than the rest of Pakistan making it more difficult for the residents of Karachi to maintain their quality of life.

Re: 19.....Just had to say one thing about your continued comments on Pakistan`s ``greater geopolitical relevance`` in comparison to India. I hate to disappoint you mate but while the 80s US backed Afghan war against the ``red menace`` and the current ``war on terror`` on deranged jihadists across your tribal regions and Afghanistan again...plus all this hullabaloo about Central Asian oil withstanding..the reality is if you look at the fundamental shift in US policy towards engaging with and to some extent helping India become the regional superpower..that itself should logically tell which nation has greater geopolitical importance. Why...because inspite of the above reasons...the US is far more worried about a certain growing economic and (perhaps later military) collosus called China. A giant that is completely indemocratic and already causing massive trade deficits for the US...and India just happens to be a bit closer to the new ``red menace``......shares a huge border for that matter...and with other realities like the South-East Asian region eventually becoming the global economic hub..and India forming ever closer links with ASEAN...the results are even more obvious. The ``war on terror`` aint gonna last forever..and central asian energy while very important..could well be neutralisaed to some extent by genuine demand in developed nations for true alternative energy sources...and/or maybe as in the case for the US..a return to nucleur powered energy..which for its potential of rare high risk disasters..are extremely energy efficient. So my question is...when there is no hunt the fundo game on...and energy sources are more diversified...where does that leave your geo-political importance in the scheme of global relations.

Re: # 19

....If india didn`t want the pipeline, the pipeline wouldn`t exist.Even iran, with it`s oil revenue doesn`t have the money we indians have.Infact, we indians will be providing livelihood to thousands of pakistanis through the pipeline.That`s why we want to make sure you guys play ball.Meanwhile , the US and Japan are wooing us away from the pipeline deal with alternate energy means!!.India has the 4th largest armed forces in the world, the 6th largest air force.The indian armed forces supply spares and service most of the armed forces of south and south east asia.The Sukhoi-30 is manufactured ground up in india.It is the most advanced jet fighter in the world, even over the F-22.Check Jane`s Weekly.Spares and servicing of malaysia`s Sukhoi-30`s are exclusively under indian contract.I`m giving you an example.Iran and India have had over 40 years of close relations.Iran has always supported india`s stance in all international fora.Iran`s president was chief guest of Abdul Kalam at last year`s republic day celebrations.If Iran wants to go ahead with pakistan directly on the pipeline deal, why hasn`t anything happened?.Oh, and i forgot, the balochis can`t stand the rest of you paks.Gwadar?.Acc. to ``Pakistan This Week`` , the paks are looking to inidan merchant ships to use gwadar and other ports as there is too much traffic into india (ports are congested) and india`s merchant navy fleet is one of the largest in the world.Colombo and Singapore are the main transit ports for goods into india and one of their main sources of revenue.Have a good weekend.

Re: # 17

perhaps you should have read my post a bit more carefully. i didnt say pakistan and iran will forge close ties. pakistan and iran have a good understanding with each other. if you indians think you have iran on `your side` your delusional. iran has a good understanding with india, but despite indian propaganda its clear that its not at the expense of pakistan. what i stated was that pakistans geostrategic importance far outweighs that of india`s, and that in the future will be the key to pakistans economic growth. no country can ignore pakistan. anyone aware of geopolitics will be aware of this. with this in mind, pakistan can be of help to iran and iran can help pakistan with future energy needs, which the two countries are already in the process of working out. i believe iran even stated that should india not want to join the gas pipeline can commence without it. thats not what i call deep ties. however, for any of the pipelines to be successful, pakistan MUST be involved. dont think musharraf and the rest of our policymakers dont understand this. the central asian republics will become energy corridors in the future, as because they are landlocked they will need to transport and receive energy through other countries. enter gwadar port. as i said, this is a standing challenge of mine, that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. theres no doubt in anyones mind of this. and china will continue to have stakes in pakistans economic success. the chinese are willing to do just about anything to ensure pakistan becomes economically successful. in addition, pakistan will continue to benefit from the chinese arms industry, something india cannot think of for the foreseable future. pakistan will be getting armed with JF-17s, and in the future with the advanced J-10 (which the US navy itself has said could be serious trouble for the F-18 super hornet). india will be left with a struggling russian industry to rely on. the americans will want a piece of the pie, but india has historically been short sighted to let the americans sell them weapons. an economically prosperous and well armed pakistan is always going to be a thorn in the side of india should kashmir not be resolved. trust me, disputes do not take precedence over economics. the world community can step in at any time and force india to the table. they dont care all that much for your market. no one wants to see 1/5 of humanity go up in smoke. and thats exactly where india is headed should it continue to sit on its ass.

Re: # 16
I got one more article for you to learn how indian enterprise , hard work and ingenuity is responsible for our economic success......nothing succeeds like success.....

Subcontinent turning into supercompetitor
The Economist
April 5, 2005 WORLDLEDE0405

A gleaming silver prototype of a sport-utility vehicle was one of the stars of the recent Geneva motor show. What made it particularly noteworthy was that, in two years, it will roll off the production line not in Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Detroit or Tokyo, but Pune -- two hours by road from Mumbai, the commercial capital of India.

Five years ago it would have been inconceivable for a vehicle from India to turn heads at such an international gathering. Back then, the gamble by India`s Tata group to enter the car business was widely predicted to drag down its flagship Telco business (now called Tata Motors).

Its first indigenous car, the little Indica, was hit by quality problems and won less than half of its expected share of India`s growing domestic market. Telco reported huge losses in 1998-99.

But Ratan Tata, chairman of the 80-firm conglomerate that is India`s largest private enterprise, stuck to his guns. Cars are a big part of his ambitious vision. Tata, the nephew of J.R.D. Tata, a leading industrialist in the days of British rule, succeeded his uncle in 1991 as chairman of the group`s holding company, just as India started to liberalize its economy.

Tata was a sprawling empire in which 300 firms went their own ways. Tata took the group by the scruff of the neck, quit crowded markets, such as textiles and cement, and licked other firms into shape. But his bold move into cars was a turning point, as the group became aggressively expansionist.

In 2000, Tata spent $435 million to buy Tetley Tea, a British business with a global brand -- the first big foreign acquisition by an Indian company. The idea was to move downstream from just selling leaves from Tata`s tea plantations. But other international acquisitions in trucks, telecoms and steel offer Tata an even bigger opportunity to make its mark outside India, as does its flourishing information technology business.

Already 22 percent of group sales are outside India. None of this could have come about if the move into cars had proved a disaster. Telco`s losses were caused partly by a severe cyclical downturn in the truck market. Tata`s response was to cut jobs by 40 percent and halve the number of suppliers to 600. This was not easy to do in India, with its rigid labor laws. After a three-year struggle, the Indica and its bigger version, the Indigo, began to overcome early problems and now account for around one-quarter of the markets for small and medium-sized vehicles.

Tata recalls that in 1995, when he decided to enter the passenger-car market, he could have taken the usual route with a joint venture. Toyota and Volkswagen had been talking to him. Instead, he pursued his dream of making Tata Motors the flagship of his $14 billion empire.

Today it is the biggest group business by sales and, only seven years after producing its first car, makes a net pretax profit margin of about 10 percent -- putting it in select company with the leading Japanese and South Korean carmakers and ahead of its main domestic rival. Today, the group`s firms are in eight sectors. The average Tata holding in each firm is 25 percent, but in flagship businesses, such as Tata Motors, Tata Steel and Tata Consulting Services (TCS), it is 65 percent or more.

Last summer, Tata floated 14 percent of the shares of TCS, an IT business started by Tata engineers in 1968, long before such Bangalore outsourcing merchants as Infosys and Wipro Technologies had been heard of. The float valued the firm at $11 billion. It netted Tata more than $1 billion, propelling the group back atop Indian business.

Tata will retire in just under three years, when he reaches 70. Before he goes, he wants to launch a revolutionary ``1 lakh car`` -- one that sells for 100,000 rupees, or $2,000. Tata would make the body panels and sell kits to small firms that would create jobs assembling the cars in rural workshops. The idea is to have a ``people`s car`` made by the people.

``When I see four or five members of a family cling to one little scooter, I become determined to provide a low-cost family car between the scooter and normal models,`` he said.


http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5329471.html