Linking Poverty and Population

Re: # 13

Food for thought.People in western countries share more of their wealth(charitable works and donations for e.g.) and maybe that`s why there is more wealth to go around!!.In my country a fat wealthy man or woman would rather throw extra food out than take the trouble to go find a poor kid and share it with.I`m talking about extra/excess food and not that which one essentially consumes.A lot of injustice still exists.Who will take the first step?.We also talk, but don`t do much, do we?.

Re: # 14

Exactly! I couldn`t agree with you more on this one, cayenne :-)~~

We generally yap about poverty and ask why it`s growing. Then we expect the govts to eliminate it, but we don`t want to contribute. Not that the real masters of our govts, i.e. World Bank or IMF will allow our politicians and leaders to do that. They just fart out the rhetoric and print doctored reports to justify more loans and higher interest rates. Last but not least, we wait for a reliable NGO or charity to come along so we could chip in our two bits. We simply do not take the initiative.

Why can`t we simply be an NGO of an individual or two? We don`t have to feed, clothe, shelter, or educate the entire nation. All we have to do is to help only one person at a time whether anyone else does it or not. We don`t even have to register with the govt.

Just like the western countries pretty soon more of us will join us in this effort and the whole community will begin to prosper. It will create such a people`s power that our dummy govts will be forced to do their share. Otherwise, as is the case now, just yapping about it allows the politicians to make false promises only to renege on them, and it continues all over again in subsequent elections.

Both India and Pakistan are in the same boat when it comes to devastating poverty and its side effects. India`s larger economy, more buying power, etc are only indicative of her larger area and population. If you convert the 34% and 24% for Pakistan and India respectively, the actual number for India will be much larger than Pakistan. Whereas, not even one person deserves to go hungry, die of cold or heat in either of our countries. Being neighbors, it is simply not in either of our interests to allow poverty to grow. Because regardless of where it is, it will spill across the border in different forms and affect the other sooner or later. There are many such examples present around the world.

So, all this comparison between the two countries is nothing more than a waste of time. What the two countries should do is to

(a) break away from the divide-and-rule policies of our western masters, and

(b) join heads and address this problem collectively

instead of wasting our resources on weaponry. Together the professionals, armies, and general populations can remove this cancer from this region in no time. But the key step is (a).

Cheers

Re: # 10

ummmm...not really. i`m a realist. yes, india is a bigger economy. but pakistan too has extreme significance in the area, and it can be an equal to india in the not too distant future. dont expect pakistan to accept second fiddle to india. pakistans geostrategic importance far outstrips that of india`s. its in a much more important position, being next to oil rich iran and afghanistan. never forget that. pakistan doesnt need india anymore than india needs pakistan. india is not some developed country yet my friend. since you guys love comparing yourself, compare yourselves to china. that ought to put things into perspective. having 1 billion people tends to naturally magnify economic success, since even minimal economic growth will be multiplied significantly. look at china`s economy then look at india`s. both are the same population. pakistans economic cooperation with india is a far off thing. until india can behave itself and act like the `superpower` it is so destined to become and start following UN resolutions and solve kashmir, there is little chance pakistan will `forge` anything with india. our policymakers have china to rely on, and gwadar port (which will be the most advanced city in south asia in 20 years. this is a standing challenge of mine) is ample proof of this. india will never catch up with china. it will always be the most dominant economy in the area, and pakistan will always benefit from it.

Re: # 16


The day pakistan and iran will forge close relations will be the day hell freezes over!!.India has always had more influence and still does, with iran than pakistan has ever had.We are comparing ourselves with china, and we are even developing china`s software industry in exchange for hardware technology expertise from them.Afghanistan`s president is a product of india`s educational system , under the old socialist regime.After the US, India is the largest investor in Afghanistan.China and India are the last two mega markets left in the world that have yet to be fully exploited.We are enjoying several revolutions, economic, cultural, eductional and political and China and India are responsible for making Asia the center of attention of the world again.Forget `Kashmir`.The LoC it is.I don`t mean it arrogantly.The corporates have more influence over the world than politicians.That`s how it is.

Re: # 16
I got one more article for you to learn how indian enterprise , hard work and ingenuity is responsible for our economic success......nothing succeeds like success.....

Subcontinent turning into supercompetitor
The Economist
April 5, 2005 WORLDLEDE0405

A gleaming silver prototype of a sport-utility vehicle was one of the stars of the recent Geneva motor show. What made it particularly noteworthy was that, in two years, it will roll off the production line not in Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Detroit or Tokyo, but Pune -- two hours by road from Mumbai, the commercial capital of India.

Five years ago it would have been inconceivable for a vehicle from India to turn heads at such an international gathering. Back then, the gamble by India`s Tata group to enter the car business was widely predicted to drag down its flagship Telco business (now called Tata Motors).

Its first indigenous car, the little Indica, was hit by quality problems and won less than half of its expected share of India`s growing domestic market. Telco reported huge losses in 1998-99.

But Ratan Tata, chairman of the 80-firm conglomerate that is India`s largest private enterprise, stuck to his guns. Cars are a big part of his ambitious vision. Tata, the nephew of J.R.D. Tata, a leading industrialist in the days of British rule, succeeded his uncle in 1991 as chairman of the group`s holding company, just as India started to liberalize its economy.

Tata was a sprawling empire in which 300 firms went their own ways. Tata took the group by the scruff of the neck, quit crowded markets, such as textiles and cement, and licked other firms into shape. But his bold move into cars was a turning point, as the group became aggressively expansionist.

In 2000, Tata spent $435 million to buy Tetley Tea, a British business with a global brand -- the first big foreign acquisition by an Indian company. The idea was to move downstream from just selling leaves from Tata`s tea plantations. But other international acquisitions in trucks, telecoms and steel offer Tata an even bigger opportunity to make its mark outside India, as does its flourishing information technology business.

Already 22 percent of group sales are outside India. None of this could have come about if the move into cars had proved a disaster. Telco`s losses were caused partly by a severe cyclical downturn in the truck market. Tata`s response was to cut jobs by 40 percent and halve the number of suppliers to 600. This was not easy to do in India, with its rigid labor laws. After a three-year struggle, the Indica and its bigger version, the Indigo, began to overcome early problems and now account for around one-quarter of the markets for small and medium-sized vehicles.

Tata recalls that in 1995, when he decided to enter the passenger-car market, he could have taken the usual route with a joint venture. Toyota and Volkswagen had been talking to him. Instead, he pursued his dream of making Tata Motors the flagship of his $14 billion empire.

Today it is the biggest group business by sales and, only seven years after producing its first car, makes a net pretax profit margin of about 10 percent -- putting it in select company with the leading Japanese and South Korean carmakers and ahead of its main domestic rival. Today, the group`s firms are in eight sectors. The average Tata holding in each firm is 25 percent, but in flagship businesses, such as Tata Motors, Tata Steel and Tata Consulting Services (TCS), it is 65 percent or more.

Last summer, Tata floated 14 percent of the shares of TCS, an IT business started by Tata engineers in 1968, long before such Bangalore outsourcing merchants as Infosys and Wipro Technologies had been heard of. The float valued the firm at $11 billion. It netted Tata more than $1 billion, propelling the group back atop Indian business.

Tata will retire in just under three years, when he reaches 70. Before he goes, he wants to launch a revolutionary ``1 lakh car`` -- one that sells for 100,000 rupees, or $2,000. Tata would make the body panels and sell kits to small firms that would create jobs assembling the cars in rural workshops. The idea is to have a ``people`s car`` made by the people.

``When I see four or five members of a family cling to one little scooter, I become determined to provide a low-cost family car between the scooter and normal models,`` he said.


http://www.startribune.com/stories/535/5329471.html

Re: # 17

perhaps you should have read my post a bit more carefully. i didnt say pakistan and iran will forge close ties. pakistan and iran have a good understanding with each other. if you indians think you have iran on `your side` your delusional. iran has a good understanding with india, but despite indian propaganda its clear that its not at the expense of pakistan. what i stated was that pakistans geostrategic importance far outweighs that of india`s, and that in the future will be the key to pakistans economic growth. no country can ignore pakistan. anyone aware of geopolitics will be aware of this. with this in mind, pakistan can be of help to iran and iran can help pakistan with future energy needs, which the two countries are already in the process of working out. i believe iran even stated that should india not want to join the gas pipeline can commence without it. thats not what i call deep ties. however, for any of the pipelines to be successful, pakistan MUST be involved. dont think musharraf and the rest of our policymakers dont understand this. the central asian republics will become energy corridors in the future, as because they are landlocked they will need to transport and receive energy through other countries. enter gwadar port. as i said, this is a standing challenge of mine, that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. theres no doubt in anyones mind of this. and china will continue to have stakes in pakistans economic success. the chinese are willing to do just about anything to ensure pakistan becomes economically successful. in addition, pakistan will continue to benefit from the chinese arms industry, something india cannot think of for the foreseable future. pakistan will be getting armed with JF-17s, and in the future with the advanced J-10 (which the US navy itself has said could be serious trouble for the F-18 super hornet). india will be left with a struggling russian industry to rely on. the americans will want a piece of the pie, but india has historically been short sighted to let the americans sell them weapons. an economically prosperous and well armed pakistan is always going to be a thorn in the side of india should kashmir not be resolved. trust me, disputes do not take precedence over economics. the world community can step in at any time and force india to the table. they dont care all that much for your market. no one wants to see 1/5 of humanity go up in smoke. and thats exactly where india is headed should it continue to sit on its ass.

Re: # 19

....If india didn`t want the pipeline, the pipeline wouldn`t exist.Even iran, with it`s oil revenue doesn`t have the money we indians have.Infact, we indians will be providing livelihood to thousands of pakistanis through the pipeline.That`s why we want to make sure you guys play ball.Meanwhile , the US and Japan are wooing us away from the pipeline deal with alternate energy means!!.India has the 4th largest armed forces in the world, the 6th largest air force.The indian armed forces supply spares and service most of the armed forces of south and south east asia.The Sukhoi-30 is manufactured ground up in india.It is the most advanced jet fighter in the world, even over the F-22.Check Jane`s Weekly.Spares and servicing of malaysia`s Sukhoi-30`s are exclusively under indian contract.I`m giving you an example.Iran and India have had over 40 years of close relations.Iran has always supported india`s stance in all international fora.Iran`s president was chief guest of Abdul Kalam at last year`s republic day celebrations.If Iran wants to go ahead with pakistan directly on the pipeline deal, why hasn`t anything happened?.Oh, and i forgot, the balochis can`t stand the rest of you paks.Gwadar?.Acc. to ``Pakistan This Week`` , the paks are looking to inidan merchant ships to use gwadar and other ports as there is too much traffic into india (ports are congested) and india`s merchant navy fleet is one of the largest in the world.Colombo and Singapore are the main transit ports for goods into india and one of their main sources of revenue.Have a good weekend.

Re: 19.....Just had to say one thing about your continued comments on Pakistan`s ``greater geopolitical relevance`` in comparison to India. I hate to disappoint you mate but while the 80s US backed Afghan war against the ``red menace`` and the current ``war on terror`` on deranged jihadists across your tribal regions and Afghanistan again...plus all this hullabaloo about Central Asian oil withstanding..the reality is if you look at the fundamental shift in US policy towards engaging with and to some extent helping India become the regional superpower..that itself should logically tell which nation has greater geopolitical importance. Why...because inspite of the above reasons...the US is far more worried about a certain growing economic and (perhaps later military) collosus called China. A giant that is completely indemocratic and already causing massive trade deficits for the US...and India just happens to be a bit closer to the new ``red menace``......shares a huge border for that matter...and with other realities like the South-East Asian region eventually becoming the global economic hub..and India forming ever closer links with ASEAN...the results are even more obvious. The ``war on terror`` aint gonna last forever..and central asian energy while very important..could well be neutralisaed to some extent by genuine demand in developed nations for true alternative energy sources...and/or maybe as in the case for the US..a return to nucleur powered energy..which for its potential of rare high risk disasters..are extremely energy efficient. So my question is...when there is no hunt the fundo game on...and energy sources are more diversified...where does that leave your geo-political importance in the scheme of global relations.

From the economic point of view I believe that the population growth is going to have a major impact on the prices of property in Karachi when people move to the city from all over Pakistan. Prices of all other commodities like fuel, transportation and food will also rise, further lowering the standard of living of the people of Karachi. In other words, Karachi will experience inflation rates higher than the rest of Pakistan making it more difficult for the residents of Karachi to maintain their quality of life.

Re: # 22

Not to mention ``power`` cuts!!.Already you guys are experiencing power cuts of 20 hours or more in many areas of the city.I hope you keep cool.

Re: # 19 taqat-e-parvaaz

``that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. ``

Mr.TEP, good to hear that Pakistan is going have a Dubai in 20 years. Why don`t you in Pak work on it with full energy and resources and abandon all this kashmir mess for another 20 years. This is all that we want too!!!

# 24
learn to make sense. not sure what the hell you were talking about. how are kashmir and gwadar related?

Re: # 23

trust me, its a lot hotter in india than it is in pakistan. pakistanis dont chicken out in the face of heat. and there will no longer be power outages, as its been solved since the major electrical company has been privatized to a wealthy saudi business group. good luck to your people keeping cool in the hellish heat of mumbai.

#21

so be it. just cause the US wants india to become a regional superpower, is by no means a guarantee india wil become that superpower. yes, india has a large enough economy to be a global force. however, if india or indians think they can dominate pakistan, they`ve got other things coming. china will never allow india to become a force other than what it sees fit for india. india will always just be a second fiddle to china. pakistans geostrategic importance is not about economic power. however, that day too will come. for the time being, pakistan occupied a most key area of the world. the US wants to maintain healthy relationships with both, as they cannot ignore either one now, for different reasons albeit. as i said, pakistan can become an energy corridor from iran and the CAR`s. pakistan has cemented its relations with those countries, so you can expect major dividends from that relationship, as there is massive oil and gas there. cayenne still believe iran is india`s best friend, even though khatami and the iranian foreign minister have all said that pakistans and iran`s relationship goes back a long way. iran has every interest to see a stable pakistan, just as pakistan has every interest to use iran for its future energy needs, which are going to rise exponentially as the economy sky rockets, which is already underway. the iran-india-pakistan relationship is not a zero sum game, as some indians would want it to be. for some stupid reasons indians believe iran is going to be friends with india at the expense of pakistan. it defies all logic.

#20

first of all, the SU-30 is NOT the most advanced fighter in the world. its a $30 million dollar aircraft. the F-22 is a $120 million dollar aircraft. pakistans newest falcons are all going to be $40 million each. so please dont make stupid indian statements like that again. the F-22 raptor would eat your pilots and the plane up for lunch. the Sukhoi couldnt even hang with an F-15C. the indian air force had to beg the americans not to use their AWACS against them in the last cope india. the F-15 is a much less capable fighter than the raptor. no aircraft, except the raptor for the most part, is unbeatable. remember that. pakistans upcoming F-16s are big trouble for the Sukhois, which is why your PM had to bitc# to george bush and richard armitage, who all told him to `shut the hell up!` haha. as for india having the 6th largest air force, so be it. this might be true. unfortunately, you guys seem intent on having your flying coffins drop like bird shit all over india. perhaps before you brag about something like that you should give your pilots some time to actually learn how to fly!!

Re: # 25

Oye, taqat......take it easy, brother.The elec. cuts i mentioned is a fact.There`s been a lot of load shedding going on in Karachi lately.Hopefully, the Saudis will fix it for karachi-ites.We all need to stay cool in summer!!.As for Mumbai......i got some pics for you.....cut and paste and enjoy!!...

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981&page=15&pp=20

Re: # 25

I got one more set of Mumbai pics......

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981&page=12&pp=20

A fyi on the Sukhoi-30......
The Sukhoi 30MKI is a twin-engined, multi role fighter which can be simultaneously operated as a interceptor, bomber and trainer. It is equipped with all-weather day and night flying capabilities and can carry eight tones of weapons, including air-to-air, air-to-surface missiles and mid course guided aerial bombs and rockets. It can fly upto 3,000 kms without refuelling. The aircraft is fitted with indigenously developed equipment like mission and radar computers, radar warning and a communication systems.

These are manufactured in india NOW.Your much bally-hooed F-16 deal is still stuck in the US congress.And, a congressman has also counter introduced a resolution disallowing the sale.In the meantime, a little politeness towards us would be nice.Look at Musharaf and learn.

Re: # 27

i am well aware of the MKI and its capabilities. no doubt its a good fighter. i never denied that. however, i would take american technology any day over russian technology, which has stagnated (no one in their right mind can deny this) in comparison to the US. the F-16s pakistan will get (have no doubt about this. its only a matter of time. all attempts to block it have been effectively countered by the pakistani ambassador and the pakistani caucus on capitol hill. the indian lobby has lost. accept it) will be either the Block 52 plus (C/D), or the newest Block 60 (E/F), which were delivered to and manufactured exclusively for the UAE. there is talk either the saudis or the UAE may help pakistan finance this new beast should the americans be willing to sell it. its a $60 million dollar aircraft. there is still talk that it is possible. the block 60 has an active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar, which means it could detect the MKI even before it got in the air!! the MKI would be toast within seconds, as two AIM missiles come at it at the speed of sound. the F-16 is the original multi role aircraft. its world known to have unbelievable deep penetration capabilities without detection. all pilots who have flown the F-16 have said that they would not fly anything else.
i am aware that the MKI is being manufactured in india. its not a big deal. transfer of technology is common among allies. pakistan manufactures the latest french submarines and a host of other technology. its not new my friend. in the meantime, lose the inferiority complex. i know musharraf is friendly towards the indians. theres a reason he`s so well respected everywhere in the world. however, indians seem hell bent on turning his hospitality into renewed hostility. so spare me the lecture. i will be polite when indians learn to behave.

Re: # 25
``learn to make sense. not sure what the hell you were talking about. how are kashmir and gwadar related? ``

wasn`t it you who said that Gwadar very soon is going to become Dubai for Pak and later on said that prosperous Pak will be a thorn to india should Kashmir be not resolved. Apart from Gwadar you havnt mentoined any other reason for economic prosperity. Jesus, atleast read what you are posting. Heres a part of you thesis for your perusal.

``as i said, this is a standing challenge of mine, that gwadar will become south asia` s most prosperous and advanced city within 20 years. its inevitable. it will become a dubai for pakistan. theres no doubt in anyones mind of this. ``
``an economically prosperous and well armed pakistan is always going to be a thorn in the side of india should kashmir not be resolved.``

You are talking about how properous pak is going to be in near future (i.e. 20 years) courtesy Gwadar. Hence, my comment: we will be ready to deal with you in 20 years or whenever pak is prosperous and well armed as long as currently you don`t stoke the Kashmir fire and concentrate on making pak prosperous and fully armed.

I hope you understand it this time. good luck.

Re: # 28



``i know musharraf is friendly towards the indians. ``

thats the reason he orchestrated Kargil? His new found friendhip stems from changed geopolitical realities.

``theres a reason he`s so well respected everywhere in the world. ``

Do you know paks status before 911. Respected? His arms were twisted by Bush to become the frontline state. Can you imagine what would have happened of Pak if Mushy boy would not have agreed to Bushy. There would been no difference b/t pak and afghanistan. Mushy in order to save pak sacrified taliban.

Re: # 29

pakistan doesnt have to be prosperous or rich to deal with india. yes, an economically prosperous pakistan will be a bigger thorn in india`s side. however, pakistan today can still be a thorn should things change. as i said, we dont need to be rich or prosperous to fight india. yes, i remember kargil. india had to run to the US to buy coffins for its 500+ dead soldiers, devastated by a hail of bullets from SSG commandos and the Northern Light Infantry in under 2 months. the americans didnt lose that many men in iraq for 8 months! gives you an idea of how devastating kargil was for `mighty` india. as i`ve said, drop the inferiority complex now. india doesnt have the balls to harm pakistan, and pakistan has the brains to understand that any confrontation will be mutually destructive. therefore, its in india`s best interest to solve kashmir. unless of course your government loves to flush tax dollars down the drain (perhaps thats why the LCA and other indian defence projects are still in the doldrums). as for images in the west, yes pakistan was a sideline state before 911. but even in that situation, india couldnt help but gyrate her hips for uncle sam to get his attention. india would have loved for powell to have made that call in delhi. the indian foreign ministry would have been doing the bhangra the whole night. and this is fact. so dont deny it. india has always done anything to somehow get into bed with uncle sam, somehow thinking that by doing so uncle sam will forget about pakistan. pakistan and musharraf didnt make a reactionary move. it was extremely calculated on the army`s part. world scenarios change. no one predicted 9/11. remember india during the cold war? india`s only friend was russia, which was busy getting its butt whooped by the mujahideen. the US didnt even want to spit on india in those days. a country`s interests change with the times. pakistan takes care of its interests. its as simple as that.

Re: # 31

Dude, why the hell are you frothing all over the place? From Kashmir to Cold war.

``however, pakistan today can still be a thorn should things change.``

I know that, Pak can once again be an irritant. And india will definitely respond to it when it is necessary. but as long as there is peace we welcome it.

``as i said, we dont need to be rich or prosperous to fight india.``
I know that too. last 5 decades are testimony to that. But we don`t want to waste our time fighting with you, we have many other better things to do. Hence, use your resources to make pak rich and prosperous and we will take care of ourself.

``yes, i remember kargil. india had to run to the US to buy coffins for its 500+ dead soldiers, devastated by a hail of bullets from SSG commandos and the Northern Light Infantry in under 2 months. the americans didnt lose that many men in iraq for 8 months! gives you an idea of how devastating kargil was for `mighty` india. as i`ve said, drop the inferiority complex now. india doesnt have the balls to harm pakistan, and pakistan has the brains to understand that any confrontation will be mutually destructive.``

india did pay a high price for its complacency, no one is denying it. The point is: we remember who was the artichitect of Kargil. And what has made him from a butcher to a peace-maker. Kargil just shows indias determination to go to any extent, to shed any amount of blood to defend even an inch of kashmir. I also remember how Sharif ran to Clinton uninvited, and how Clinton asked him not to come to Washington unless he pulls pak forces out of IOK. FYI, when are you guys going to claim and give a decent burial to those commandos/SSG/NIF men who were left dying in indian territory. Indian army had to burial them. Infact till now Pak maintains that there were no NLI men in IOK. Shame on you and on Mushy for denying the families of the soldiers their dead sons/husbands/brothers. I am not for any war with pak or ``harming`` pak. I told you earlier itself, we don`t care about pak there are many other things we have to attend to.

``drop the inferiority complex now.``
whatever dude.


``therefore, its in india`s best interest to solve kashmir. ``

I also agree to it. Its in the best interest of both the nations to do so. India keep IOK, Pak keep POK. problem solved.

india wanted to take advantage of 911 and label pak also as terrorist nations because it was a common knowledge about who fathered Taliban. Ofcourse, when pak agreed to prostitute itself once again and abandoned Taliban indias game was over. Pak had to bend over or else today pak would have been a medieval landmass.


``india has always done anything to somehow get into bed with uncle sam, ``

India has historically opposed u.s. and has been close to the soviet. But as time change priorities change to.

``remember india during the cold war? india`s only friend was russia, which was busy getting its butt whooped by the mujahideen.``

Russia helped india when it mattered the most. It was with the russian help that india whooped paks ass in 71. Indias defence hardware is 75% russian. when the west refused them russia offered it. Still we never had russian forces on our soil unlike you, i guess you can get everything out of pak for the dollars thrown at it. and yes scenarios change hence india is buying from u.s./israel/russia/france/sweden. Even pak wants russian pdts. soviets failed in afg due to many reasons not solely becuase of muj. The ideology itself collapsed.

``the US didnt even want to spit on india in those days.``

yes, they just spitted on paks face and they still do it to the present day.

taqat-e-parvaaz #19

perhaps you should have read my post a bit more carefully. i didnt say pakistan and iran will forge close ties. pakistan and iran have a good understanding with each other. if you indians think you have iran on `your side` your delusional. iran has a good understanding with india, but despite indian propaganda its clear that its not at the expense of pakistan.

`` what i stated was that pakistans geostrategic importance far outweighs that of india`s, ``

What is basis for such grandiose statements ?

`` pakistan. anyone aware of geopolitics will be aware of this. with this in mind, pakistan can be of help to iran and iran can help pakistan with future energy needs, which the two ``

what help is Pakistan exactly to Iran ? Making condoms ??

`` ties. however, for any of the pipelines to be successful, pakistan MUST be involved. dont think musharraf and the rest of our policymakers dont understand this. the central asian republics will become energy corridors in the future, as because they are landlocked they will need to transport and receive energy through other countries. enter gwadar port. ``

Whether Gawadar port is used Central Asian republics have other options that do not involve Pakistan -
selling directly to China
selling directly to Russia
pipeline to Iran
pipeline through Caspian Sea and Georgia to the Black Sea

`` pakistan becomes economically successful. in addition, pakistan will continue to benefit from the chinese arms industry, something india cannot think of for the foreseable future. pakistan will be getting armed with JF-17s, and in the future with the advanced J-10 (which the US navy itself has said could be serious trouble for the F-18 super hornet). india will be left with a struggling russian industry to rely on. the americans will want a piece of the pie, ``

China JF-17 and J-10 are powered with engine prototypes from the struggling Russian industry. If Chinese weapons industry was advanced they would not be the largest buyer of Russian weapons.

`` but india has historically been short sighted to let the americans sell them weapons. ``

Who was been begging the USA for F-16s and F-16 spare parts ?

`` an economically prosperous and well armed pakistan is always going to be a thorn in the side of india should kashmir not be resolved. trust me, disputes do not take precedence over economics. the world community can step in at any time and force india to the table. they dont care all that much for your market. no one wants to see 1/5 of humanity go up in smoke. and thats exactly where india is headed should it continue to sit on its ass.``

It is easier for the world community to pressure Pakistan than India

taqat-e-parvaaz #28

`` i am well aware of the MKI and its capabilities. no doubt its a good fighter. i never denied that. however, i would take american technology any day over russian technology, which has stagnated (no one in their right mind can deny this) in comparison to the US. the F-16s pakistan will get (have no doubt about this. its only a matter of time. all attempts to block it have been effectively countered by the pakistani ambassador and the pakistani caucus on capitol hill. the indian lobby has lost. accept it) will be either the Block 52 plus (C/D), or the newest Block 60 (E/F), which were delivered to and manufactured exclusively for the UAE. there is talk either the saudis or the UAE may help pakistan finance this new beast should the americans be willing to sell it. its a $60 million dollar aircraft. there is still talk that it is possible. the block 60 has an active electronically scanning array (AESA) radar, which means it could detect the MKI even before it got in the air!! the MKI would be toast within seconds, as two AIM missiles come at it at the speed of sound. the F-16 is the original multi role aircraft. its world known to have unbelievable deep penetration capabilities without detection. all pilots who have flown the F-16 have said that they would not fly anything else.
i am aware that the MKI is being manufactured in india. its not a big deal. transfer of technology is common among allies. pakistan manufactures the latest french submarines and a host of other technology. its not new my friend. in the meantime, lose the inferiority complex. i know musharraf is friendly towards the indians. theres a reason he`s so well respected everywhere in the world. however, indians seem hell bent on turning his hospitality into renewed hostility. so spare me the lecture. i will be polite when indians learn to behave. ``

Yawn dear !!!

taqat-e-parvaaz #31

`` pakistan doesnt have to be prosperous or rich to deal with india. yes, an economically prosperous pakistan will be a bigger thorn in india`s side. however, pakistan today can still be a thorn should things change. as i said, we dont need to be rich or prosperous to fight india. yes, i remember kargil. india had to run to the US to buy coffins for its 500+ dead soldiers, devastated by a hail of bullets from SSG commandos and the Northern Light Infantry in under 2 months. the americans didnt lose that many men in iraq for 8 months! gives you an idea of how devastating kargil was for `mighty` india. as i`ve said, drop the inferiority complex now. india doesnt have the balls to harm pakistan, and pakistan has the brains to understand that any confrontation will be mutually destructive. therefore, its in india`s best interest to solve kashmir. unless of course your government loves to flush tax dollars down the drain (perhaps thats why the LCA and other indian defence projects are still in the doldrums). as for images in the west, yes pakistan was a sideline state before 911. but even in that situation, india couldnt help but gyrate her hips for uncle sam to get his attention. india would have loved for powell to have made that call in delhi. the indian foreign ministry would have been doing the bhangra the whole night. and this is fact. so dont deny it. india has always done anything to somehow get into bed with uncle sam, somehow thinking that by doing so uncle sam will forget about pakistan. pakistan and musharraf didnt make a reactionary move. it was extremely calculated on the army`s part. world scenarios change. no one predicted 9/11. remember india during the cold war? india`s only friend was russia, which was busy getting its butt whooped by the mujahideen. the US didnt even want to spit on india in those days. a country`s interests change with the times. pakistan takes care of its interests. its as simple as that.``

The Pakistani military high command must miss the insight of strategists like you

Re: # 35
yes. i know. the truth always does hurt, especially when you have an inferiority complex about your country being ruled by outsiders for 600 years.

#33
all the other options you gave for the oil are too expensive. gwadar presents the best scenario. read anything on this by any expert.

#32
``I know that, Pak can once again be an irritant. And india will definitely respond to it when it is necessary. but as long as there is peace we welcome it.``

hahahaha...that one was good. thats why your army twice over the past four years came to the border, only to put its tails between its smelly behind and run away!! hahaha.. you`re funnier than you look.
yes, you are right, india can go to any extent to shed blood. only you forgot to mention who`s blood its been shedding as an occupying force, denying a freedom struggle in its own homeland. in the meantime, its joined the ranks of rogue states like israel in defying UN security council resolutions. why does the army need 600000 armymen in that area? are you guys that afraid of the mujahideen? india needs a big spanking is all it is. until that comes, it will not behave itself. by the way genius, the architect of kargil was not just musharraf. there were four other pakistan army generals involved. unfortunately, india has no other choice now but to deal with him. uncle sam has the rod for manmohans ass ready if it refuses. your dumbass solution to kashmir is the reason why thousands of kashmiri women continue to be raped by your soldiers. that solution is not acceptable. the quicker your government realizes that the quicker the entire region can move ahead.

Re 25: ``just cause the US wants india to become a regional superpower, is by no means a guarantee india wil become that superpower.``.....as much as I dont like the US as a hyperpower mate...generally when the US has a greater geo-strategic plan..it goes ahead. (Marshall plan, Japan, Israel has mideast watch dog, house of saud etc etc) And with India`s economy growing its current rate and its obvious geo-political dominance in the region...any help from the US is just going to be part of a greater drive towards superpower status. Secondly, India is not going to try displace China in any way...China keep its East Asian sphere of influence for all India cares....in fact if anything India is correctly obessessed with a future multi-polar world...with power centres including the US...EU...China..and perhaps us. Honestly with the way every other developed nation(s) leaders have been approacing from the united India/Germanyt/Jap/Brazil UN bid EU-India commisions to Koizumi coming the other day for developing a united geo-political strategy..much of what Ive been saying above is happening infront of our very eyes. Which finally brings me to Pakistan...honestly yaar India has not an iota of interest in ``dominating Pakistan``....u guys are a tiny nation compared to us with about 1/9th the GDP...and some current geo-political relevance. Do we want to have peace over Kashmir and encourage lots of trade...of course we bloody well do...cause we are neighbours and no nation even the US can have healthy economic growth and geo-political stabiliy if there was a perpertually volatile and fractionalized neighbour. The point being your growth is only good for us and is never gonna be a source of competiton for us...and conversely you guys will have substantially improved growth on the basis of our much larger economy if peace and free trade was abundant..the US-Mexico model providess substantial evidence for this. As for this Iran friendship issue I never said they were better friends to us...and in light of likely upcoming events..I will bet that India and Pakistan sit back as quite mute observers as the US plots its next attack.

Re: # 36

``hahahaha...that one was good. thats why your army twice over the past four years came to the border, only to put its tails between its smelly behind and run away!! hahaha.. you`re funnier than you look.``

yeah since then the terrorism is confined to kashmir, army was not amassed because of kashmir problem but because of attack occuring on parliament. Regarding the army, india doesn`t even need to go that far, just build dams and starve pakis.

``yes, you are right, india can go to any extent to shed blood. only you forgot to mention who`s blood its been shedding as an occupying force, denying a freedom struggle in its own homeland. in the meantime, its joined the ranks of rogue states like israel in defying UN security council resolutions. why does the army need 600000 armymen in that area? are you guys that afraid of the mujahideen? india needs a big spanking is all it is. until that comes, it will not behave itself. by the way genius, the architect of kargil was not just musharraf. there were four other pakistan army generals involved. unfortunately, india has no other choice now but to deal with him. uncle sam has the rod for manmohans ass ready if it refuses. your dumbass solution to kashmir is the reason why thousands of kashmiri women continue to be raped by your soldiers. that solution is not acceptable. the quicker your government realizes that the quicker the entire region can move ahead.``

go to hell with your questions. who the fu$k are you to question us. If you are that concerned take a AK and cross the LoC. We will continue to ``rape`` kashmiri women do whatever you want to do, we will continue to be a `` rogue`` country, who the fu$k cares about UN. Solution is not acceptable? yeah pak army who could not wrest JK after wars, after 15 years of insurgency, is scarying us now. We are ready to hand over kashmir to Pak simply because they could not win it. The janbaaz force which has never know any war since 47. which has never won any substantial land after 47 raid. I am sooooo afraid of the mighty pak army, they are soooo powerful, I will now write to the PM to give away jk to pak because parvaz wants that to happen.
I understand your frustation and anger but thats not new, you have lived with that for 5 decades and will continue to. We don`t give a hoot about it. go and cry in front of OIC, UN, UC, China. Maybe they will throw sone money at you. Regarding Kargil, Mushy was the army chief hence the primary responsibility falls on him. As I said earlier we welcome talks as long as they bring peace, if you think that we are going to ceed even an inch of land then don`t raise your hope. It ain`t going to happen.

taqat-e-parvaaz #36

`` yes. i know. the truth always does hurt, especially when you have an inferiority complex about your country being ruled by outsiders for 600 years. ``

Who is an outsider ? A lot of civilizations that invaded India do not even exist in any sembalence.

`` all the other options you gave for the oil are too expensive. gwadar presents the best scenario. read anything on this by any expert. ``

You are stretching logic to suggest a pipeline from Turkmenistan to Iran is costlier than a pipeline through unstable Afghanistan and Pakistan to Gwadar.

If China wants petrol and natural gas they can build a pipeline directly to Central Asia. Ditto with the Russians who can resell their gas to West Europe. Russians have pipelines already in existence to supply Europe.

`` yes, you are right, india can go to any extent to shed blood. only you forgot to mention who`s blood its been shedding as an occupying force, denying a freedom struggle in its own homeland. in the meantime, its joined the ranks of rogue states like israel in defying UN security council resolutions. why does the army need 600000 armymen in that area? are you guys that afraid of the mujahideen? india needs a big spanking is all it is. until that comes, it will not behave itself. by the way genius, the architect of kargil was not just musharraf. there were four other pakistan army generals involved. unfortunately, india has no other choice now but to deal with him. uncle sam has the rod for manmohans ass ready if it refuses. your dumbass solution to kashmir is the reason why thousands of kashmiri women continue to be raped by your soldiers. that solution is not acceptable. the quicker your government realizes that the quicker the entire region can move ahead.``

What happens if the Indian government does not listen to Pakistan ?

Re: # 36

taqat my buddy.....take a chill pill,my brother....i, atleast ain`t beating up on pak.....i`m just pleading with you to see the writing on the wall.Manmohan doesn`t need Bush.`Tis the other way around.That`s why i pasted the `Air India` clip about the 50 Boeings they ordered.The EU and Airbus is pissed, but guess what??.India has about 5 domestic privately owned carriers two of which are starting service to the US and Europe soon.They`re gonna place another order so we got the EU too dancing to our tune.Y`now how much a ticket costs from Mumbai/Delhi/Cochin to Dubai non-stop on Air India`s budget carrier Air India Express, if booked in advance??.INR 2750.00.Why, even an autorickshaw driver can afford to take a holiday in Dubai, mon frere.Y`see , the indian economy and the enterprise of the indian people is were it`s at.The world wants a piece of our market and we can state our price of admission.
Whatever you guys have tried to do to destabilize us has come to naught.All of us indians, whatever religion or race are as united as ever and we have to thank your country for it!!.Your country is now facing the same thing that you wanted us to face.Remember the Balochis??.How sweet it is for us indians to watch with delight and clap with glee and wring our hands with joy.

Re: # DAWN Daily:31 ISLAMABAD, Oct 2: As many as 104 serving and retired Lieutenant Generals, Major Generals or equivalent ranks from other services are among the 1,027 military officers inducted on civilian posts in different ministries , divisions and Pakistani missions abroad after Oct 12, 1999 military takeover.

The number of army Brigadiers or their equivalent ranks from the Navy and Air Force is even higher at 160, according to an annexure placed before the Senate library.

There have been 14 ambassadors and a high commissioner from the military ranks during this period.

Of these 1,027 military officers inducted on civilian posts, 27 military officers have been given the prized grade of 22 while 62 officers have been adjusted in grade 21. A whopping figure of 150 officers occupy civilian positions in Grade 20. There are 276 officers between grade 20 and 22 alone. The nature of their jobs varies from deputation, secondment, re-employment to contract basis.

These military officers occupy civilian posts in a situation where, according to Incharge Cabinet Division Raza Hiraj, there are 700 `unabsorbed` surplus civilian employees. There are 33 officers on special duty (OSD) just in grades between 19 and 21.

The range of fields where military officers are working on civilian posts encompasses every sector of human endeavour including communications, education, diplomacy, water and electricity management, information, post office, jails, local bodies, think tanks, industrial production, shipping, minority affairs, population welfare, health, agriculture, railways, highways, housing, labour and manpower, social and women development, law and justice and sub-sectors of sports from cricket to hockey.

A close look at the figures shows that these military personnel occupy 13 posts in the cabinet division, 5 posts in the commerce ministry, 98 in communications ministry, 113 in the defence division, 52 in the defence production division, 9 in the education ministry, 16 in the establishment division, 24 in the ministry of foreign affairs, 6 in the ministry of food, agriculture and livestock.

There are 88 military officers working in the ministry of interior, 2 in the health ministry, 6 in the housing and works ministry, 29 in the industries and production ministry, 3 in the information and broadcasting ministry, 58 in the ministry of Information Technology, 25 in the Kashmir affairs and northern affairs ministry, five in the labour and manpower division, 17 in the ministry of minorities affairs, 39 in the ministry of petroleum and natural resources, just one each in the ministry of population welfare, the planning and development division and the ministry of religious affairs.

There are two military officials working in the revenue division (CBR), 21 in the ministry of science and technology, 72 in the ministry of railways/railway board, 37 in the ministry of water and power, 5 in the ministry of women development, 6 in the Wafaqi Mohtasib. There are another 37 officers who have been inducted under the military`s 10 per cent quota in civilian posts over and above these appointments.

In the Foreign Affairs 13 Lieutenants and Major Generals were appointed as ambassadors in different countries, while one Brigadier and a Major also got ambassadorial positions. Lt-Gen (retd) Asad Durrani was appointed as ambassador in Riyadh (contract expired on October 2002).

Vice-Admiral (retd) Shamoon Alam Khan was appointed as ambassador in Kyiv (up to August 28, 2003), Vice-Admiral (retd) Khalid M Mir was appointed ambassador in Beirut (up to July 2003), Lt-Gen (retd) Nasim Rana as ambassador in Kuala Lumpur (up to July 2003), Air Marshal (retd) Muhammad Farooq Qari as ambassador in Tripoli, Lt-Gen (retd) Agha Jehangir Ali Khan as ambassador in Mexico, Maj-Gen (retd) Shujaat Ali Khan as ambassador in Rabat (up to September 2003), Maj-Gen (retd) Fazal Ghafoor as ambassador in Tashkent (contract expired on April 2002), Maj-Gen (retd) Salim Ullah as ambassador in Abu Dhabi (up to June 2003), Lt-Gen (retd) Mohammad Shafique as ambassador in Bahrain (contract expired on October 2002), Maj-Gen (retd) Muhammad Hassan Aqeel as ambassador in Thailand (up to June 2003), Maj Gen (retd) Syed Mustafa Anwar Hussain as ambassador in Indonesia (up to August 2003) and Maj-Gen (retd) Sultan Habib as ambassador in DPR Korea (up to October 2003).

Brigadier Abdul Majid Khan was appointed as ambassador in Dushambe (contract expired on June 2002), while Major Badruddin was posted as high commissioner to Bender Seri Begawen.

In the cabinet division, Maj-Gen Khalid Bashir was appointed as Member (Tech) Pakistan Telecommunication Authority (PTA) (up to November 2001), Maj-Gen Raza Hussain as chairman SUPARCO and Maj-Gen Shahzada Alam Malik as Chairman PTA. These inductions were made on regular basis.

Similarly, in the ministry of communications, Maj-Gen Tariq Javed was inducted as National Highway Authority chairman on November 11, 2000 but was later repatriated. In his place Maj Gen Furrakh Javed was appointed as NHA chief on November 5, 2001 on a secondment basis. He already had served as deputy director general (Dev) in the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA). Likewise, Maj-Gen (retd) Agha Masood Hasan was appointed as Director General Pakistan Post Office on a contract basis, Vice-Admiral Taj Muhammad Khattak was appointed as Chairman Port Qasim Authority (PQA) on secondment, Rear Admiral Muhammad Asad Qureshi was appointed as Director General PQA, Vice Admiral (retd) S Tauquir H Naqvi as Chairman Pakistan National Shipping Corporation (PNSC) on contract, Vice Admiral (retd) S Abaid Ullah Khan as chairman (PNSC) (contract terminated on October, 2000), Rear Admiral Bakhat Ali Jumani was appointed as Executive Director (Ship Management PNSC), Rear Admiral (retd) Sarfraz Khan was appointed as Chairman Gwadar Port Authority (GPA), Rear Admiral Muhammad Nashat Raffi as General Manager Karachi Port Trust (KPT),

Vice Admiral Ahmed Hayat was appointed on a contract basis as Chairman Karachi Port Trust (KPT), but prior to him Vice Admiral (retd) Khalid Mohammad Mir was serving as chairman. Maj Gen (retd) Mohsin Ahmed Vahidy was appointed as Executive Directive PNSC Karachi on a contract basis but he is not serving now, while Rear Admiral Sikandar Viqar Naqvi was appointed chairman PQA (not serving).

Similarly, in the ministry of defence, Lt-Gen (retd) Hamid Nawaz Khan was re-employed on a contract basis as secretary ministry of defence but earlier Lt-Gen (retd) Nasim Rana was serving in this capacity whose contract was terminated on July 8, 2001. Rear Admiral Irfan Ahmad was appointed as Additional Secretary (contract terminated), then Maj-Gen Muhammad Ashraf Chaudhry was made Additional Secretary, defence ministry, on secondment basis.

Maj-Gen Javed Iqbal was appointed as Director General Military Land and Cantonments (ML&C) on secondment but he was later retired. Later, Maj Gen Muhammad Jawed was appointed as DG ML&C on secondment.

Maj-Gen Mahboobul Muzaffar and Maj-Gen Sabihuddin Bokhari were appointed as Surveyor General of Pakistan. After their retirement, Maj-Gen Tariq Javed was appointed in their place on secondment basis. Rear Admiral Arshad Munir Ahmed was appointed Ex-Managing Director Karachi Shipyard (contract expired), Air Vice Marshal S Javed Raza as Director Pre Engineering PIA, AVM (retd) Niaz Hussain Director (Engineering) PIA and AVM Arshad Rashid Sethi as Deputy Director General, CAA (not working).

In the Defence Production Division, Air Marshal (retd) Zahid Anis was appointed as secretary D P Division. Earlier Lt-Gen (retd) Lehrasab was working in his place. Similarly, Maj-Gen Ali Baz was appointed as Additional Secretary D P Division. Earlier, Maj-Gen Rehmat Khan was serving as Additional Secretary D P Division. Maj-Gen M Salimuddin was re-employed after his retirement from the army as Chief Scientists and Scientific Adviser DESTO in place of Maj-Gen Akbar Saeed Awan, while Maj-Gen Syed Ali Hamid was appointed as Director General DEPO on secondment basis while AVM Aurangzeb Khan was appointed Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex board, Kamra.

In the Establishment Division, Maj-Gen (retd) Rahmatullah was appointed as Managing Director Federal Employees Benevolent Fund and Group Insurance. Earlier, Maj-Gen (retd) Inayatullah Khan Niazi was working in his place. Air Marshal (retd) Shafique Haider was appointed as Chairman Federal Public Service Commission (FPSC) while Lt-Gen (retd) Arshad Hussain was appointed Member, FPSC.

Maj-Gen (retd) Sikander Shami was appointed as Director General of Head of Institute of NIPA, Lahore, while Lt-Gen (retd) Sardar Ali as Director NIPA, Lahore, both on a contract basis.

Maj-Gen Muhammad Iqbal Khan was appointed as Managing Director PASSCO on contract in the ministry of food, agriculture and livestock, Maj-Gen Ahsan Ahmad as Director General health on secondment but was replaced by Maj-Gen (retd) Muhammad Aslam also on secondment/contract in the health ministry.

In the interior ministry Maj-Gen (retd) Zahid Ehsan was appointed as Chairman Nadra (posted out) while in the ministry of industries and production Maj-Gen (retd) M Mohsin was appointed as chairman NFC (national finance commission) on contract. AVM Azhar Maud was appointed National Telecommunication Corporation (NTC) chairman.

In the ministry of information and broadcasting Maj-Gen (retd) Jamshed Ayaz Khan was appointed as president Institute of Regional Studies, Islamabad, on contract.

In the minorities, culture, sports, Maj-Gen (retd) Inayat Ullah Khan Niazi was appointed Chairman ETPB (contract expired), while Maj-Gen Anis Ahmad Bajwa was appointed as Managing Director PTDC Islamabad on contract. He had already served as Deputy Chief of Staff to Chief Executive in the Prime Minister`s secretariat.

Lt-Gen Hamid Javed was appointed as Chief of Staff to the President in the president`s secretariat.

Similarly in the Prime Minister`s secretariat Lt-Gen Ghulam Ahmad was appointed as chief of staff to Chief Executive in place of Lt-Gen Hamid Javed.

Maj-Gen Abdul Jabbar Bhatti, Maj-Gen Shafaatullah Shah and Maj-Gen Muhammad Yousaf were also appointed as deputy chief of staff to chief executive. Maj-Gen Haroon Sikandar Pasha was appointed as Director Chief Executive`s secretariat. Maj-Gen Nadeem Taj had also served as Military Secretary (MS) to Chief Executive (posted as MS to the president from January 2002).

Lt-Gen Khalid Maqbool (now Governor Punjab) and Lt-Gen Syed Muhammad Amjad were appointed as Chairman National Accountability Bureau (NAB), while Maj-Gen Abdul Jabbar Bhatti, Maj-Gen Ijaz Ahmed Bakhshi and Maj-Gen Ovais Mushtaq Qureshi, AVM (retd) M Saleemud Din, Maj-Gen Muhammad Sabir, Maj-Gen Nazakat Ali Khan, Maj-Gen Shujaat Zamir Dar, Maj-Gen Syed Usman Shah and Maj-Gen Tariq Bashir, Rear Admiral Ihsanul Haq, Real Admiral Ubaid Sadiq, AVM Masood Akhtar, AVM Zakaullah Khan and AVM (retd) Khuda Dad were subsequently appointed as Director General, NAB

Maj-Gen (retd) Syed Asif Riaz Bokhari was appointed as Member, NRB on a contract basis.

Maj-Gen Parvez Akmal was appointed as Managing Director Oil and Gas Development Company (OGDC) (not working) while Maj-Gen (retd) Syed Usman Shah was appointed as Director General Intelligence and Investigation.

In the railways ministry Lt-Gen (retd) Javaid Ashraf Qazi was appointed as secretary/chairman Pakistan Railways. After his contract was terminated Lt-Gen (retd) Saeeduz Zafar replaced him. On termination of his contract, Maj-Gen (retd) Hamid Hassan Butt was appointed as General Manager M&S PR but his contract too was terminated.

Lt-Gen (retd) Zulfiqar Ali Khan was appointed as Wapda Chairman on secondment/contract while Maj-Gen (retd) M Aslam Zuberi was appointed Adviser in the Wafaqi Mohtasib secretariat (contract expired).

Those who were appointed in the attached departments include Air Marshal (retd) Sharbat A Changazi who was appointed as Director State Life Insurance Corporation of Pakistan and Rear Admiral (retd) Ejaz Husain appointed as General Manager Special Project, Pakistan State Oil Company Ltd.