Parents and the Pill

ntsyed : ``The hateful people here represent a noisy minority that has its equal counterpart in Pakistan.``

Look. Its may be self-serving and assuring for you to assume that the lone poster with an Indian sounding name who is lovey-dovey about Pakistan represents majority Indian thought , while the rest , who to you are hate spewing hindooo fanatics , only represent a noisy minority. But it certainly is not true. Go to any Indian dominated chat room or interactive website on the net , or engage in a conversation with Indians you meet about issues like Kashmir , Pakistan and so on. You will find over 90% of them to be a part of that `noisy minority`.

But what do you expect ? When you eye ouR land , our territory , when you sponsor terroRism in our country , you would be foolish to expect us to take it on the chin and smile at you.

Re: #471 by amit

Has it ever occurred to you that some of these other people on Chowk might have met Pakistanis like you, and they are all not necessarily completely blinded by their ignorance and hatred?

In the survey I quoted, 15% of Pakistanis saw India as a “Potential friend”. These are the same people who are highly educated compared to the rest of the population, and more westernized. Exactly the type you have been meeting here in the USA.

I know you’ll be citing Stuka’s travelogues into the heart of Pakistan to counter this, but find out why Indian store-owners in Pakistan are reluctant to put up Hindu-sounding names for their stores. Their sales would go down!

Just today an Indian Army Major died fighting Pakistani terrorists in Kashmir. And we are supposed to feel lovey-dovey about Pakistan because the idiot Amit found out to his surprise that the average Pakistani is just like the average Indian (2 hands , 2 legs , 2 eyes , 2 ears , single nose , et. etc. )....and if we do not agree with Amit , we get labelled as hate-mongering fundooos.

Re: #471 by amit


[Calm down!! ]

Okay…I’m gripping the sides of my chair now to steady myself…

…Ok…I’m alright now. Whew…… Thanks!


[The poll you are referring to was taken in 2003 when a year back in 2002 we were about to have a war. In the subcontinent, we are basically very emotional people and it drives us to take extreme positions - both in love and hate. It does not mean much.]

No doubt you are basing this argument on other polls taken when we were NOT about to have a war. Could you cite a few?


[The same Indians and Paksitanis who butchered each other in 1947, treat each other as royalty when they visit each other` country. In third countries, Indians and Pakistanis become close friends. My experience is not an exception. Almost everyone who has visitied the other side or met people from there in third countries, have a positive experience. If you do not believe me, I suggest you interact with some Pakistanis to find out for yourself. ]


I had a friend who told me how nice a few Pakistani friends he had were. “It’s as if they have no grudge against us!” he said.

He cooled down considerably after I reminded him that it is PAKISTAN that is sending the terrorists into India, NOT the other way around. So, rather that have a grudge, they should actually be apologetic. And it is WE that should be having a grudge.

It is not a 50-50 situation.


[It is an unfortunate legacy of the subcontinent that we have always had a culture of fratricide. Right from the time of Mahabharat, people with blood relations have formed opposing camps that are ``enemies`` of the other side. When the dust settles, people wonder what they were fighting about. The entire chronicle of Indian history is littered with neighboring kingdoms being bitter enemies, who invite a third party to show up and help them. Of course, the third party takes charge after eliminating both the feuding fools. Raja Porus and Raja Ambhi had a bitter rivalry, so that the latter aligned with Alexander. Prithviraj and Jaichand were such bitter rivals that the latter aligned with Ghori. Rana Sangha invited Babar to ``help`` him agaist Ibrahim Lodhi. Mir Jafar collaborated with the Brits to topple Siraj-ud-daula. It is a rich legacy that continues to this day.]

[Can you see the same pattern between India and Pakistan? The same level of state sponsored propaganda, hatred etc, Pakistan going to China for help, India going to the USSR. At the end of the day, we fools are doomed to repeat our own history.]


The pattern you see is universal. Like Taiwan going to USA for help. Cuba going to USSR for help. I could give you a million examples from all over the world. It’s called geo-politics. Nothing that is unique to our sub-continent.

This is a convenient cover to conceal the roots of the divide – the whole Hindu-Muslim issue. The legacy of suffering of Hindus in the hands of the Muslims. And the jihadis currently. And their sympathizers – which is the majority of pakistanis today.

Ajeya,

Calm down!! The poll you are referring to was taken in 2003 when a year back in 2002 we were about to have a war. In the subcontinent, we are basically very emotional people and it drives us to take extreme positions - both in love and hate. It does not mean much. The same Indians and Paksitanis who butchered each other in 1947, treat each other as royalty when they visit each other` country. In third countries, Indians and Pakistanis become close friends. My experience is not an exception. Almost everyone who has visitied the other side or met people from there in third countries, have a positive experience. If you do not believe me, I suggest you interact with some Pakistanis to find out for yourself.

It is an unfortunate legacy of the subcontinent that we have always had a culture of fratricide. Right from the time of Mahabharat, people with blood relations have formed opposing camps that are ``enemies`` of the other side. When the dust settles, people wonder what they were fighting about. The entire chronicle of Indian history is littered with neighboring kingdoms being bitter enemies, who invite a third party to show up and help them. Of course, the third party takes charge after eliminating both the feuding fools. Raja Porus and Raja Ambhi had a bitter rivalry, so that the latter aligned with Alexander. Prithviraj and Jaichand were such bitter rivals that the latter aligned with Ghori. Rana Sangha invited Babar to ``help`` him agaist Ibrahim Lodhi. Mir Jafar collaborated with the Brits to topple Siraj-ud-daula. It is a rich legacy that continues to this day. Can you see the same pattern between India and Pakistan? The same level of state sponsored propaganda, hatred etc, Pakistan going to China for help, India going to the USSR. At the end of the day, we fools are doomed to repeat our own history.

Re: “Almost Punjabi” Amit

I am eagerly awaiting your logical response to posts #468 and #469.

For a secular, “non-fundo” and unbiased intellectual like yourself, it should be quite easy to show everybody why you (and ntsyed) are right and this survey is completely wrong.

Go ahead, show everybody!

Or, has the cat got your tongue now?

I just wanted to highlight one line from the survey to contrast Amit’s assertions:

Here’s Amit the “non-fundo” intellectual:

[My personal experience with Pakistanis has been very positive. It is not just one or two people but virtually every Pakistani guy I ever met. So I find it hard to fill myself with venom against that country. It could very well be that the government there, which is unrepresentative, hates India, although now even that is changing. At the people level, there is no hatred. The fundo Indians on chowk have probably never met or interacted with any Pakistanis and have convinced themselves that the other side is evil. They are filled with hatred, which is a negative and corrosive force. I just feel pity for them.]


Here’s the real survey:

Also, 54 percent saw India as the “enemy”, while 31 percent viewed India as a “rival” and only 15 percent felt India was a “potential friend.”

Re: #467 by ntsyed

[Dear Amit,

… The hateful people here represent a noisy minority that has its equal counterpart in Pakistan. ]


Re: #466 by amit

[My personal experience with Pakistanis has been very positive. It is not just one or two people but virtually every Pakistani guy I ever met. So I find it hard to fill myself with venom against that country. It could very well be that the government there, which is unrepresentative, hates India, although now even that is changing. At the people level, there is no hatred. The fundo Indians on chowk have probably never met or interacted with any Pakistanis and have convinced themselves that the other side is evil. They are filled with hatred, which is a negative and corrosive force. I just feel pity for them.]

Below are some “impersonal” viewpoints on how pakistanis REALLY think.



Because Amit is obviously an intellectual who can think independently and clearly, unlike the noisy and biased ``fundo`` crowd here at chowk, I’m expecting a reply here.

India Discovers What Pakistanis Really Think

By Shireen M Mazari

Every time it comes to the crunch, ordinary Pakistanis show that they have a deep commitment to the country and know what is in the national interest. Thus, it is extremely reassuring to find that the media and NGO hype notwithstanding, Pakistanis are viewing the rapprochement process between Pakistan and India with caution. Nor have they been overwhelmed by the Track-II euphoria into forgetting the very real issues with India. All this has come up in a poll commissioned and published (August 25) by India’s Outlook magazine and conducted by Gallup-Business Research Bureau, the Pakistani affiliate of Gallup International.

The poll was conducted on 3-4 August, 2003 and almost half those polled were women. The sample represented a cross-section of income groups and education segments across the four provinces of Pakistan, and the sampling was divided proportionate to the population of each province in the total national population. The cities included in the poll were the four provincial capitals plus Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Sukkur, Hyderabad, Multan, Faisalabad, Gujrat, Sahiwal, Sargodha and Mardan.

While most of those polled felt that 62 percent of Indians yearned for peace, 47 percent regarded Prime Minister Vajpayee’s recent peace initiative as a “gimmick” and only 26 percent felt he was serious while 27 percent opted for the “don’t know” category. In contrast, 52 percent rated President Musharraf’s “efforts in ushering peace with India” as “serious”, with 23 percent regarding them as a “gimmick” and 25 percent claiming that they “don’t know”. Also, 54 percent saw India as the “enemy”, while 31 percent viewed India as a “rival” and only 15 percent felt India was a “potential friend.” Nevertheless, only 6 percent felt that there was a “high chance” of war after the August 2003 peace initiatives, while 44 percent still felt there was a “moderate chance”, and 47 percent saw only a “low chance” of war. This is significant because in January 2003, 37 percent saw “high chance” of war and only 8 percent saw a “low chance” - with 55 percent feeling that there was a “moderate chance” of war.

Perhaps the most telling revelations were on Kashmir, given how some lobbies in Pakistan claim that Kashmir is not an important issue with most Pakistanis. 79 percent of those polled felt that it was necessary to resolve Kashmir first in order to establish peaceful relations between Pakistan and India, and only 29 percent agreed with the idea of accepting the conversion of the LoC into an international border. 69 percent did not agree to this suggestion, and only 2 percent fell into the “don’t know” category on this question. Interestingly, 43 percent felt that since August 2003, in the wake of the new moves for Pakistan-India dialogue, bilateral negotiations were the most suitable way to resolving the Kashmir dispute. 26 percent still felt that UN negotiations were the best way, while only 12 percent saw US mediation as the most suitable option and 17 percent saw war as the most suitable way.

When asked whether they would trust the US to “broker peace between India and Pakistan”, 33 percent responded with a “yes”, 62 with a “no” and 5 percent with a “don’t know” response. Also a very interesting revelation related to what most considered as the most important political issue. The choice was: Fundamentalism, Democracy, Kashmir Issue. 17 percent ranked Fundamentalism as number one, 19 percent opted for Democracy as the first while 64 percent saw Kashmir as the number one political issue of importance.
Equally important, most of the Pakistanis polled felt that while their Establishment was not a roadblock to peace, India’s was. For instance, when asked whether the Pakistan army and ISI were a roadblock to Pakistan-India relations, 32 percent answered “yes”, but 52 percent answered “no” while 16 percent fell in the “don’t know” category. In contrast, 63 percent responded with a “yes” to the question, “Is the Indian army and RAW a roadblock to Indo-Pak relations?” Only 28 percent responded in the negative to this question and 9 percent felt they “don’t know”.
…Finally, two other revealing responses were on trade with India and Kargil. When asked if Pakistan should have trade relations with India, 63 percent responded with a “yes” response and 35 with a “no” while only 2 percent chose the “don’t know” option. Given the massive propaganda against Kargil both from within Pakistan and from India, the response on the Kargil question is revealing. Those polled were asked, “What is your opinion about Kargil?” The choices offered were “useful operation”, “mistake”, “unavoidable”, and “don’t know”. 40 percent saw Kargil as a “useful operation”, 31 percent saw it as a “mistake”, 21 percent as “unavoidable” and 8 percent chose the “don’t know” option.
The reality is that many Pakistanis may enjoy Indian music and films just as they enjoy Western music and films, but they are well grounded in their Pakistani-ness. Nor can the barrage of propaganda hide the truth, or undermine the ability to see things through a Pakistani perspective. In other words, if peace is to come then it must be based on real interests, including the resolution of the very real conflicts that prevail. Emotive appeals based on false cultural premises are not the way; nor is trying to paint the state structures as the villains disrupting the peace process. There are real issues and presently the Indian Government’s approach of evading the initiation of dialogue is undermining the peace process. There is simply no alternative to dialogue at the official level and no amount of people-to-people serenading across Wagah can alter this reality.
(The writer is Director General of the Institute of Strategic Studies, Islamabad)

Re: # 466

Dear Amit,

Every society has its share of the good, the bad, and the ugly. The hateful people here represent a noisy minority that has its equal counterpart in Pakistan. Unfortunately, people like you are rare who can see beyond the minor imperfections of few for the greater good of all on the sub-continent.

All the best to you in your endeavors :-)~~

Ciao

Re:rsridhar#465

First of all, I am sorry to hear that you got divorced. My personal experience with Pakistanis has been very positive. It is not just one or two people but virtually every Pakistani guy I ever met. So I find it hard to fill myself with venom against that country. It could very well be that the government there, which is unrepresentative, hates India, although now even that is changing. At the people level, there is no hatred. The fundo Indians on chowk have probably never met or interacted with any Pakistanis and have convinced themselves that the other side is evil. They are filled with hatred, which is a negative and corrosive force. I just feel pity for them.

re:#454 by amit
Often, a place like US brings Indians and Pakis together. I too had a good friend from Karachi. We became close. I would often end up sleeping in the same apt watching some hindi movie into late hours during my days off. We were together in residency.
Pakis, who come from a repressed society (where the chances of meeting women are few) often get very excited when they find so much freedom in US. My friend probably spent too much time chasing women. I had a steady girl friend (who i later married and alas, now divorced) but my friend was not so steady. It is a sick mentality. He did not do well in his work, wasted his fellowship and is now back in Pakistan.
What i am saying is: being gregarious means nothing much. Your friend was very likely a good guy but we are looking at the society at large. Remember how much harm Pak has done to India over the years. Has Pak really turned a new leaf? I shall have to wait for more concrete proof.
Meanwhile, i read the news that Pak refused investments from India until Kashmir problem is solved! What a bunch of nutcases!
Sridhar

Amit. When you make blatantly racist condescending generalisations against a community as large as that of the South Indians , you are not hurting their feelings. You only expose yourself for the insecure old racist fool that you are.

And please...its not for a stupid c*nt like you to decide who stays on chowk and who doesn`t....or for that matter ...what should or shouldn`t be the pattern of behaviour on this site.

#458 by vivek
//...I think Amit`s a good chap..//

Me too. Nobody could be a better chap than amit ...... For an example of how good our chap is, consider this: everytime Closet-Mullah32 starts his ``ultra-nationalist-indians-are-kicking-my-a$$`` whining routine, you will see amit appear from nowhere and offer his shoulder gallantly for the closet-mullah to cry on ....

There will be a brief flow of very sweet homilies and affections towards each other during which Closet-Mullah will make claims about inherting the ``culture from the entire world`` [after 9/11, every expat paki suddenly wants to belong to the ``entire world``]...... Mr Amit of course will agree vigorously....... And anybody saying anything to the contrary will immediately be banished as hindu-nationalist big0t [ Although lately for some reason, the assault is focused on dark, ugly south indians]

Some people fancy rescuing damsels-in-distress. ...... But Mr amit`s heart beats for the pakis-in-distress. He can go to any lengths to make make pakis feel at ease. The latest drama playing in ``friendship`` town is based on ``good looks`` which apparently pakis and north indians have in common, even though north indians are a little less good looking than pakis. But all of them [pakis and northies] are definitely better than those cranky dark southies.

So you are right, Amit is a good chap ..... who else will come up with gems like ``my paki hunk friend offered me women, so how I can accept the fact that pakis sponsor jihad?``

echo: small correction

you are not an enemy honorable or otherwise. friends we can be if we leave the legions behind.

Echo:

I may be honorable enemy to you. But you are certainly not for me. In the small town of Maharashtra where I grew up we celeberated Muharram with same fervor as Shiv Jayanti. Many times went to imambara nd carried Tazia. My dear devout shiv bhakta mother would not feed us before feeding the fakir who came daily at 10 am.

Bottom line: ilter out semetic legion concept from pure spirituality. drink spirituality and we all will live happily everafte.

Need to run! more later

amit`s depression in life is caused by his excessive lust for women. If like his Pakistani friend he had focussed more on the ``hereafter`` that would have have given him more success in temporal endevours as well:

``Writing in Khabrain (March 5, 2005) Shaukat Hussain Shaukat stated that a Hindu was a snake which became more and more poisonous if you gave it milk out of kindness. The Hindu will never refrain from biting you. He was expressing friendship because he wanted to retain possession of territories he had illegally acquired from Pakistan. A Hindu cared for only women, money and land, but a Muslim cared only for the Hereafter.``

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