biggest liability for the MK is that they sought help from Saddam Hussein`s Iraq when Iran and Iraq were involved in a life and death struggle.

hamidm2:

``..LaatoaN kay Bhooth....``

Yeah you can say that again bro`. Nothing was possible before that great kick in the US arse from which it is still smarting.


O the service you provide!

How else would have I even known that this brilliant young man is even alive. Shukrun v mabrook yaa akhee-in-arms.

and so I read the BBC interview--Great!

Now just as is happening in Iraq, as if under a divine plan, it is the US which will end up helping form a mullah-based government. Pakistan is obviously next!

Halakoo Khan, unknowingly, did the same!

The jigsaw puzzle, where the westernised jig is up , and is being so speedily being wrapped up in body bags. Now such a bargain struck by the bastions of capitalism?

Indeed Allah works in mysterious ways.



`` Neel kay sahil say laykar--`` How prophetic of ALLAMA Iqbal.``

........latoon kay bhoot baton say nahin mantay !............. the cave dwellers are beginning to see the light after a kick in the shalwar !

one of the bhoots







``The former foreign minister in Afghanistan`s Taleban regime has said he wants to stand for parliament in September`s national elections.

Mr Mutawakil is the only major Taleban figure to have been arrested by the Americans and then released. He was held for three years, first by the Americans and then under house arrest in Kabul.

Last week he gave the BBC his first interview with Western media since his release.

He was unapologetic about many aspects of Taleban rule, although he did admit that Osama Bin Laden and his followers had brought suffering to the country.

Mr Mutawakil also said he now approved of girls` education, so long as it was in keeping with Afghan culture. ``

............ four more years for bush !

Re: # 215

hamidm...loose (sic) what? I was talking to tahmed and Compaqted HP about some other things. Both of them withered away and you slap this pic on here. Is there something in the pic I`m supposed to have never seen before?

BTW, read Dusk board for the latest posts...lol

The following was blackened-out in that report to the investigative committee:


`` And all the time I thought my drinking buddy
Hamidm2 & my good-for-nothing
buddy tahmed32 were harmless,
dyed-in-the Ba Ba-Blacksheep-wool anti-muslims.
How could I have guessed that these guys
were neither with us, nor with them,
nor with their father mothers.
One just wanted free-beer and the other would
whimper & wiggle just by a distant hug``

``What an act, I say, what an act they put on; they made even me look like an arse!``

Dubya the Farting President


With Apologies to the Authors of

Walter, the Farting Dog

bush wins - again !

http://dawn.com/2005/05/17/images/top11.jpg`` width=``350`` height=``310`` border=``0`` alt=``bush wins``>

ntsyed,

this is what this is all about ........... you loose - again!

Another one of America`s Monsters, as described by Craig Murray - recently exed British ambassador to Uzbekistan (2002 to 2004) for his whistleblowing. Details at the link below:

``The western news agenda has moved the dead of Andijan from the ``democrat`` to the ``terrorist`` pile. Karimov remains in power. The White House will be happy. That`s enough for No 10.`` -- Craig Murray

Re: # 205 by HP

Just as I expected: the triple-posting did hammer the point in well to KO your political ``heavyweight`` drunkenness flat on your back - i.e. a simple combo from a wide-eyed mullah renders a ``political Heavyweight`` CROSS-EYED!

Where are the responses to my questions, Joe-Hate? LOL

LOL....too bad you can`t hold your liquor and a debate together! I doubt you can hold them seperately either. What a waste of brains and liquor both, but you do make a poster boy for AA ;-)~~

Would you like to show us how Jim Carey calls your kind a ``Lo-hoo-hooo-hoooZZZER`` in his unique style?

:-)~~

Re: # 204

tahmed: have you got enough memory to remember to check the interact numbers I`ve mentioned in my last post? One of them has a link to your challenge. Clink the link and enjoy your humiliation.

happy munching on your feet :-)~~

Anil/DM: I would rank the factors affecting civilization and its definition in the following order of importance:

1. Geography: This was historically the defining factor. And I think it still remains. Since, my guess is that 70-90% of the world`s population probably still has not sat in an airplane, or crossed outside the borders of their country...........Geography is related to a human being`s physical survival, which comes first in nature.......while culture, religion etc. is related to spiritual survival, which usually comes second.......

2. Language: This is the second most important factor. Language is the strongest bond between people. After getting the physical survival solved, people need to communicate with each other...........Hence the easiest way to define a civilization is to look at geographically contiguous areas, which speak the same language........That, in a nutshell is a civilization.........Invariably, they will have certain unique geographic features, which caused the birth of the language.......creating a language takes centuries.........it is more difficult to spread a language than it is to spread a religion or a culture............

3. Culture: This includes socially acceptable customs, music, dress code, entertainment etc......this develops after people living in the same area due to geographic reasons, give rise to a language. And then they communicate and set up social customs.......

4. Relgion: Religion does not impact geography or language. But it has a direct affect on culture. Two similar cultures with different religions, will slowly start evolving into different cultures........

5. National boundaries: This has a slow affect. National boundaries restrict interaction between cultures across the border, and accelerate interaction between different cultures within their borders. Thereby changing the culture, and even languages (as is the case of Urdu starting to replace and/or morph other local civilizational languages in Pakistan).........

Romair, Tahmed, Dost-Mitter:

I think civilization is identified to the lowest common denominator of social factors among the people who identify themselves. In early civilization, it was river, as water was crucial factor to sustain civilization. This led to agricultural (civilization), to industrial civilization, and probably now it is moving to Internet civilization.

Anil

tahmed32:

Your point is valid. With globalisation, hollywood/bollywood, McDonald`s and KFCs, etc., there will be more common strands in various civilizations, but uniqueness will remain. For example, I read that 80% of the McDonald menu in India is Indian - things like McAloo and McTikki and different from their American menus.

As for Sufi Islam, I have not yet read Rumi but I think that there is a uniqueness to Indian sufi-ism, which has certain kinship with the Bhakti movement. To a Hindu, there is not much difference in the composition of Amir Khusro, Kabir, Guru Nanak or Nam Dev. To a Muslim purist, however, it is playing dangerously with shirk, an unforgivable sin.

Ref shishapa #202

[May be when you are Hindu you always belong to Ganges civilzation and if you are Muslim, you are always belong to Indus civilization.
May be when you are a Pakistani muslim who has nothing better to do, you start thinking in terms of Indus versus Ganges civilization!]

ALL Pakistanis consider themselves to be descendants of some civilization (?) on the banks of a dry wadi in Arabia.

dost mittar #201 good to see you on this miserable board. :-)

To add my 50 paisa (used to be one paisa, but inflation has taken its toll) to the discussion:

Despite the tremendous damage it did by misleading nations into communism in the 20th century, there is a kernel of truth in the marxist theory of economics: that is, that political, cultural, social mores (things that generally are considered to add up to a ``civilization``) are determined by the economic mode of production. Thus, an agricultural society tends to have a feudal superstructure, an industrial society tends to have a capitalist superstructure.

Thus: the vast changes in the economic mode of production of the 20th century have now given rise to the global economy of the 21st century - and in turn a common global civilization is emerging. You note how south india and north india are picking up common tastes in saris - but you should also note that this convergence goes beyond india, and is global in dimension. Thus, what used to be considered the ``western dress`` (pant, shirt) is becoming popular at least as fast as saris in north india.

On my being a moderate muslim: please dont use labels (even if well meant). Being a muslim is not a disease that you get in moderation or in extreme forms. I just consider myself a muslim who looks to the Quran for guidance, rather than towards other men who claim to be closer to God than ordinary mortals.

On sufi islam: while considered acceptable by many hindus it seems, sufism has in fact been prevalent in the middle east for centuries. Perhaps the most well known and loved sufi of all - Rumi - was from the middle east and founder of the sufi school subscribed to be the ``whirling dervishes`` of Turkey. I love the writings of Rumi (who would no doubt have been hounded by the maulvis today). I disagree with the sufi concept of seeking union with God in this life - as a muslim, my belief is that it is after we cannot meet or glimpse God during the period of our earthly existence. I also consider sufism to be a detachment from the concerns of this world, when in fact man was created to understand this world. But this disagreement does not mean that I disdain sufism in the same manner that I disdain lies, hypocrisy, greed, violence (except in pure self defense as accepted by laws in all civilized countries). The Quran teaches us to respect all faiths (including hinduism, judaism, christianity, and so forth), and to live in peace and affection with people of all faiths (or lack thereof). The fact that these teachings fall on deaf ears of many muslims does not mean that these teachings do not exist, or that I as a muslim should not live by these teachings.

Copy, e-mail, photo-copy, post:

This is good stuff to counter US-terrorism.[America`s Dr.Frankenstein]


Good examples of BLACK Humour ( Black-- not as in negro)


Wrapped in the Flag:
Some People like to wrap themselves in the flag...
Windows
Real Player




The National Anthem Like you have never heard it!

Critics Ask ``Why do these guys hate America?``
Real
Windows
......................................................................................................................................................................

#195,196 and many more!

I knew I would knock the cover off. Now your spaghetti is showing.
Not a big deal! The ``ward`` already has many of your friends like Echoboom, Alephnull, Sadna, Jay already there.

ntsyed #204 so...you stand proved a liar.

big talk about annihilating me and beating around the bush with empty words about goldfish and whatnot does not change the simple fact that you have failed to live up to my challenge in #200.

now go to hell. last post to you.

Re: # 200

tahmed...now you`re the same mistake you made in #185, to which I responded in #186, to which you responded in #198 with ``ntsyed: you are a bore. so please dont waste any more time addressing posts to me.``

Why do you insist on being annihilated is beyond me. OTOH, witnessing your short memory I beginning to wonder if you`re a goldfish who`s never seen anything beyond the small bowl it dwells in. Thus, keeps coming back for a bloody nose.

Rest assured, there`s plenty of evidence to shut you up, as has been the case in the recent past....i.e. if you can retain a memory beyond a day.

Just watch what you say about Islam and the two of us will never have a problem.

Is current pakistani dictator from Ganges civilization who dethroned an elected Indus civilization person in the land of Indus civilization? Is a Indus civilization person elected by Ganges civilization people in heart of Ganges civilization?

Why did Indus civilization people in Sindh threw out their own people in 1947 but welcomed Ganges civilization people?

May be when you are Hindu you always belong to Ganges civilzation and if you are Muslim, you are always belong to Indus civilization.
May be when you are a Pakistani muslim who has nothing better to do, you start thinking in terms of Indus versus Ganges civilization!

How about Tungabhadra civilization, Tapti civilization, and Padma civilization?
Are there any civilizations named after ponds or lakes or only rivers count?
Are RSS people from Nag nadi/naala civilization?

Questions, questions, questions. Enquiring minds want to know!

Re: # 172
Romair:

Sorry to reply so late, I had to go out of town.

My concept of civilization may be broad but not abstract. Neither is the concept of human civilization, which is the broadest concept of our civilization.

As I said before, I do not have any problem with Pakistanis trying to distinguish between Indus and Gangetic civilizations, this provides a secular basis to the religon based two nation theory. Good for Pakistan!

But do not expect the rest of the world to stop thinking of India as one of the world`s great civilizations, like European, Chinese and Egyptian civilizations. For Indians especially, the ownership of their historic civilization does not stop at the Wagah border. As a matter of fact, it is mostly Indians who claim ownership of Mohenjodaro and Gandhara - most Pakistanis are quite content with the ownership of Mecca and Median, no matter what the Saudis think. Besides religion, the other heritage whose Pakistanis claim ownership is Urdu, Ghazals and Qawwalis, etc. Ironically, all these are products not of the Indus but the Gunga-Jumna plain and India is not giving up that ownership either. As far as Sufi Islam is concerned, it is now disdained by even moderate Muslims, such as our tahmed32, and if the trend continues, Hindus may be the only believers in this product of the Indian civilization.

If there is a historic divide, it is perhaps along the North-South lines, as we were taught very little about the southern part of civilization. Modern India is changing that too. A fusion is rapidly taking place. Take cuisine, for instance: Dosa-Idli is now not only available in every Indian town and city, it is also made in household kitchens, same about the Gujarati Dhokhla and Bengali sweets. And the Panjabi Dhaba is the king of the road all over India. In clothing, very few of the my mother`s generation in Punjab wore Sarees, now every woman has a few South Indian sarees for special occasion - and Punjabi Salwar-Kameez is the universal informal wear throughout India. Take the art form: South Indian Bharat Natyam, Oddissi, Kathak are being learnt all over India and there is appreciation of Carnatic music in the North and the Hindustani music in the South. In education you cannot go to any University hostel without finding a cross-section of all India. And don`t discount Bollywood, which is providing its own fusion of cultures for the masses.

ntsyed: ``you DO NOT shoot off your stupid mouth against Islam``

you are a liar as well as a bore. If you wish to prove otherwise, cut and paste anything I have said against Islam.

Re: # 198 by tahmed32

LOL......LOL...........LOL........LOL

Boy...LOL....I`d better stop laughing before they slap a law on me against laughing so hard. ....LOL

ntsyed: you are a bore. so please dont waste any more time addressing posts to me.
Fair enough.

Your request shall be granted, provided you DO NOT shoot off your stupid mouth against Islam without evidence and/or substantiation.

I repeat, DO NOT shoot off your stupid mouth against Islam without evidence and/or substantiation.

Otherwise, all bets will be off and I`ll be jumping on your tail instead of just stepping on it.

ntsyed: you are a bore. so please dont waste any more time addressing posts to me.

Re: # 190 by tahmed32

HP: moi? a kindred soul with ntsyed the paper mouse!! surely you jest!!
LOL….talk about a disoriented goat! Now you’re getting everything mixed up…but then again, what else could be expected of you when your mouth is stuffed with your own various appendages (not just your two baby feet).

LOL ;-)~~

BTW, I`m still waiting for your direct response as per your claims in #185 and my response to it in #186. I hope you won`t try slithering away again.

Re: # 189

This much response for just hinting at a possibility in four words! Something snapped… Hmmm…
This is only as long your two short legs put together and stuffed in your mouth…may be you’ll realize it for yourself when you’re relatively sober and unable to walk with your face on the ground along with your feet. The recurring snaps you hear is probably from your appendages or your stretched jaw ;-)~~

Re: # 189

This much response for just hinting at a possibility in four words! Something snapped… Hmmm…
This is only as long your two short legs put together and stuffed in your mouth…may be you’ll realize it for yourself when you’re relatively sober and unable to walk with your face on the ground along with your feet. The recurring snaps you hear is probably from your appendages or your stretched jaw ;-)~~

Re: # 189

This much response for just hinting at a possibility in four words! Something snapped… Hmmm…
This is only as long your two short legs put together and stuffed in your mouth…may be you’ll realize it for yourself when you’re relatively sober and unable to walk with your face on the ground along with your feet. The recurring snaps you hear is probably from your appendages or your stretched jaw ;-)~~

Re: # 188

Oh boy! I love to knock the cover off these fundo nut-balls!
LOL…what’s your profession, if any? Mind you, flipping burgers, sweeping gas-station toilets, delivering pizzas etc are only “occupations” – not professions.

I provided you example of animals in your own backyard.(Islamic brethren/mankind for you) I was being very polite by just mentioning Yemenis. I should have added Saudi, Syrian, Egyptians and more of those sex starved women and child molesters par excellence!
People get mugged and groped everywhere but only animals would do it in bunches and that too on the supposedly holiest day in Muslim calendar!
Can ya see yer nose Bubba? I guess you can’t… ‘cause ya seem like an FOB.

Get sober, and then read the posts – yours and mine – to grasp what is being said and responded.

Since you’re a bona fide political “heavyweight” (probably running from law back home and on political asylum in ‘umreeka’), could you provide statistics and/or authentic reports of animalism as per your allegation?

While you’re at it, look up the statistic on group muggings, rapes, molestation and every kind of degenerate behavior as the hallmark of the Land of Opportunity?

Could someone please help this sod read his posts and mine to discern what is being said and responded to? He thinks his nascent slick-willy flip flopping politicking on the issue is going to bleach his skin and get him in the White House. lol

Only a wide-eyed would answer the question they way you did. You take the modern education away and factories would close. Promote Madarssa and people would be weaving cotton by hand. ( 7th century economic model!). So far you have failed in every test! No wonder it was hard for you to compete in an open society. Long live Saudia!
After you’ve noted my comment regarding hypocritical mullahs in my previous post, please be kind to point out when modern education was denounced by the religious groups, as well as the alleged failures as per your post above. Be sure to provide evidence if you wish to taken seriously.

The society you refer to as “open”; begs for and steals business and oil from Saudia. Can you even dare to imagine a replay of mid 70’s oil embargo? How many ‘competitive’ businesses do you think will remain “open” in the so-called “open society” if that happens? Be careful to note the difference in the three quoted opens, if the shots haven’t impaired your brain as well as your sight. lol

Rest assured Saudia is destined to live long – till the end of time : - )~~

As Richard Whately put it: “He who is unaware of his ignorance will be only misled by his knowledge.”
As per this particular post of yours (#188), you seem to fit the profile better than anyone else. Wish you had another foot to shove into your overly stuffed mouth, don’ t you? lol

By shutting down its people from the modern thought and knowledge! Amazing logic! Simply amazing! The reality gap is just startling. Need an industrial-size plunger to shove that down the people`s throats.
Again, provide evidence of your assertions/allegations, as ample evidence to the contrary has been provided by many on this board and across chowk.

I am hypnotized by your sizzling logic, I can barely speak!
A word of free advice to you: follow through your speechlessness with silently slithering away like tahmed. That would be a more graceful option for you. But I suppose it may be too late since you’ve already made a fool of yourself……..lol

Focus on your shots, Bubba…you ain’t there yet to engage in constructive debates.

What a dud! lol

kaalchakra,
I think each one of us have our own definition of civilization, but in my definition it is a combination of land and religion.

Why they hate America

By Alon Ben-Meir

NEW YORK, May 2 (UPI) -- Nearly four years have passed since 9/11, and yet hatred toward America, especially in the Muslim and Arab world, has intensified -- so much so that tens of thousands, propelled by these feelings, are not just motivated to kill indiscriminately but die without hesitation.

A number of reasons can provide the ``rationale`` for this kind of behavior. To understand the depth of the hatred toward the United States, we must first consider what precipitates such sentiments and precisely how hate infused with religious zeal is used to spread anti-Americanism, transforming people psychologically to the point where they are ready to commit unspeakable crimes. Certainly, the continuing rise of anti-American sentiments impedes U.S. political maneuverability and undermines its influence, with potentially disastrous implications for its strategic national interests.

Hate is extremely easy to teach. Hate is irrational, generated from a narrow perspective. Hate prevents the individual from coming to any objective perception of the truth. It is durable and inveterate because it is both a substitute for feelings of inadequacy or failure and an outlet for the management of discontent and despair. The individual`s hatred of his own conditions is therefore easily transferable to hating others whom he can conveniently blame for his misfortune.

Dictators and extremist religious leaders have long since learned to use hate as a unifying element to mobilize the masses against their enemies -- Nazi Germany and now anti-Western Islamic radicals are perfect examples. When hate is sanctioned by religious fanaticism and nourished by conditions of idleness, poverty, and neglect, it becomes an integral part of religion itself and a formidable force for provoking and inflaming violence. Moreover, unlike hate evoked by conflicting political ideologies, hate emanating from religious zeal is not subject to rational discourse. The indoctrinated become intoxicated with feelings of piety; they grow fearless, undeterred by every danger, even death. Forged in the furnace of hate, they emerge as fanatic believers in the cause, resistant to outside influence because they feel shielded by a divine power and their belief that they will achieve martyrdom once they perform the ultimate deed. Committing an act of violence against the United States or making Americans suffer only briefly satiates their hateful burning thirst.

Arab and Muslims hate America for different reasons, but according to several recent polls taken in many Arab and Muslim countries, 85 to 90 percent of the people have extremely negative views of America. Hating America is fashionable in this part of the world, and few dare to say anything positive. For the purpose of this discussion, I distinguish among seven sources of hatred:

1 - America as an imperial power: As part of the Western hemisphere, America is at best suspected by certain segments of the Muslim and the Arab world as embodying the imperialism, colonialism, capitalism, and the rest of the ``isms`` long associated with the West. Seen in this light, the United States offers nothing to them except to become the object of their resistance and discontent. America`s ascendancy to superpower status has added fuel to the already charged anti-imperialist atmosphere. According to this view, America`s supremacy has led it to assume the self-appointed roles of prosecutor, judge, and jury regarding events that affect the welfare and well-being of other members of the international community and in the process grants itself the license to act at whim without considering the interests of other nations. America is seen as unilateralist, readily intervening in the internal affairs of other nations, seeking only to protect its narrow interests and ignoring the hardship it inflicts on the people and nations involved. The two Gulf Wars, and the hard-core policies toward states like Iran, North Korea, and Syria, are frequently cited as recent examples that continue to provoke anti-imperialist instincts in the region.

2 - Arrogance: The United States is seen as an arrogant and morally decadent state that takes other nations for granted while paying no heed to their real problems. Arab and Muslim extremists accuse the United States of demeaning, humiliating and inconsiderate policies that negatively affect their lives. America is further accused of being motivated by narrowly defined national security concerns. For example, although many Arab states supported the first Bush administration in 1991 in its effort to oust Saddam Hussein from Kuwait, they also believe that the United States is exploitive and that it was (and still is) motivated by its oil interests rather than concern for Kuwaiti or Iraqi freedom. Recently, this view was strongly echoed by Nabil Abu Shakra, the president of the Lebanese Cultural Summit in Paris. And in a recent conversation I had with him, he insisted that ``American arrogance glaringly manifests itself by the pervasiveness of its economic outreach and how America flaunts its wealth and manipulates the economic and financial affairs of other nations.``

3 - Corrupting culture: More than anything else, Muslim religious radicals fear the pervasiveness of American culture and what they perceive as its disastrous influence on Arab and Muslim youth. Shiek Yousef el-Hassan, a Hamas leader in the West Bank, sees American culture, however it manifests itself -- in music, clothing, literature, the arts, and the like -- as implicitly and explicitly overshadowing, corrupting, and devaluing indigenous cultures and their way of life. This concern over the American cultural invasion has been brought into sharp focus primarily because of the Internet and the technological revolution. Arab states like Saudi Arabia and many Muslim countries like Iran are trying only with limited success to combat what they view as American apostasy and abandonment of basic moral tenants and so shield their ``innocents`` from corruption. The awareness that this cultural battle may be lost because of the younger generation`s attraction to Western ``modernity`` adds to the frustration and thus the vehemence of anti-American sentiments.

4 - Self-indulgence: The United States is also seen as self-indulgent, operating from the vantage point of America as the center of the universe. Uncaring, it neither understands nor shows any interest in understanding other people`s needs, culture, aspirations, or the problems that affect their lives so profoundly. ``America acts only when American interests are at stake,`` observes Samir Ahmed, former director general of the Union of Palestinian Writers. As proof, he points to ``Washington`s consistent support of corrupt Arab regimes such as the Gulf States, and Egypt.`` Arab critics also charge the United States with being indifferent to the evils occurring elsewhere -- the genocide in the Sudan and earlier in Rwanda -- as well as indifference to disease and starvation in other African nations. America is for Americans while the rest of the world gets the crumbs. For the past five decades, America has garnered other negative appellations -- the exploiter of Arab lands and peoples.

5 - Lack of evenhandedness: One of the more common accusations leveled against the United States is its failure to be evenhanded in its foreign policy. America is accused of favoring Israel over the Arab States, specifically the Palestinians, and of not discharging its responsibilities impartially in the region. Critics attribute the perpetuation of the Palestinians` homelessness to American indifference to the plight of the Palestinian people. They cite too the continuing sanctions against Iraq up to the ouster of Saddam Hussein, which caused tremendous hardship to the Iraqi people who continue to suffer today after more than two years of occupation. In a recent discussion I had with Abd el-Halim Mohammed, assistant director of the al-Ahram Center for Strategic and Political Studies, he cites American pressure on Syria for its noncompliance with U.N. resolutions as another glaring example of the lack of evenhandedness. ``Israel,`` he insists, ``has never been forced to comply with any U.N. resolutions against its policies, such as the return of the occupied territories.``

6 - America as a ``rogue`` state: Whereas the United States has over time accused several Arab or Muslim nations like Syria and Iran of being rogue states, most Arab and Muslims feel that America is one itself. They view both Gulf wars, which have resulted in the deaths of thousands of Iraqis, as criminal acts. They accuse the United States of sanctioning the Israeli occupation and Israel`s hard-line policy that includes targeted killing as a way of dealing with Palestinian resistance. They point to the abuses of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib and the indefinite detention without trial of hundreds at Guantanamo as clear evidence of America`s consistent violation of human rights and crimes against humanity. The Palestinian poet Taha el-Motawakel is emphatic in his condemnation: ``America should be the last country in the world to advocate human rights,`` he told me as we argued the problem, ``when in fact it is the greatest violator.``

7 - A blind envy: Finally, the United States is envied because of its wealth, freedom, outreach, and immense human and material resources. Envy of America extends to its economic and military power and ability to wield them almost at will. American visitors to Arab and Muslim countries are easily visible, immediately recognized by their deep pockets. Too often, they make no effort to show modesty. When both the reality and the myth of America are juxtaposed against the immediate reality of deprivation and hardship in the Middle East, the result is a combustible stew of envy, deep resentment, and hate. Paradoxically, America is embraced because of its riches and power and envied because of its wide appeal.

Put all these together, and it`s not hard to see how America becomes the target for its detractors. From time immemorial, leaders of all political and philosophical persuasions have attempted to blame others for their own shortcomings and endemic problems. The bigger the problem they faced, the larger and more significant the ``responsible`` party had to be. From the Arab and Muslim perspectives, the United States represents all that is bad and evil in their societies not simply because it is a superpower with unprecedented influence, but because its power is so visible and domineering. In addition, the media in many of these counties - for example, in Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and Libya -- join in the official anti-American crusade, feeding the public the same dose of fallacies and misperceptions that their respective governments dish out.

Although in June of 2003 an Advisory Group on Public Diplomacy for the Arab and the Muslim World under the chairmanship of Edward P. Djerejian was created, the group mandate was strictly limited to public diplomacy. That is, the group was unable to recommend any core policy changes. The second major issue was funding. The group found that funding for all public diplomacy programs amounted to $600 million in 2002 and that the funding left for outreach programs in the Arab and Muslim world was only $25 million. ``To say that financial resources are inadequate,`` said the report, ``is a gross understatement.`` Unfortunately, not much has changed since the group reported on Oct. 1, 2003, that ``The United States today lacks the capabilities in public diplomacy to meet national security threats emanating from political instability, economic deprivation and extremism, especially in the Arab and Muslim world.`` In another section, the report said that public diplomacy requires a ``seriousness and commitment that matches the gravity of the approach to national defense and traditional state-to-state diplomacy.``

While the group made some useful recommendations -- including dramatic increases in funding, additional professional staff versed in Arab and Muslims cultures, better use of the information technology, helping Arab and Muslims to gain access to American education, translation of the best American books and increased professional and cultural exchanges -- these and many other recommendations are hardly adequate to meet the real challenge America is facing.

What Osama bin-Laden started is nothing less than an anti-American revolution in scores of Arab and Muslim nations. Terrorism is only one manifestation of this revolution. The deeper and more insidious problem for America is the hatred inflaming the masses. The United States cannot use force to combat this. Regardless of the validity of their arguments, and whether the Arab and Muslim perception of America is right or wrong, the present administration must deal with them as if they were true.

Indeed, this is an ideological cultural war - a war that cannot be won by muscle. In fact, the use of mostly brute military power has only heightened the levels of resistance and violence, while further mobilizing the masses against everything America stands for.

Successfully battling such hate will prove to be much harder than waging war in Iraq, and the war on terrorism will never be won unless the United States changes the social and political environment where hate and blind religious fanaticism fester. Changing minds and winning the peace in a sea of deep seated hatred cannot be done on the cheap.

Moreover, Arab and Muslim nations must be tackled on a nation-by-nation basis. There is no wholesale public diplomacy. The administration should appoint a permanent commission composed of top-notch Arab and Muslim scholars and diplomats with extensive expertise in Middle Eastern and Muslim affairs to monitor and make policy recommendation to prevent this ideological cultural war from becoming far more violent and continuous, with untold consequences. If the Sept. 11, 2001, attack warranted the creation of a congressional commission to investigate what went wrong and came back with sweeping recommendations costing tens of billion of dollars, surely the intensified hatred for America that precipitated the 9/11 attack in the first place warrants equal, if not more, urgent treatment. Why must America wake up to another 9/11 attack to realize where the root cause of the danger lies?

--

Alon Ben-Meir is professor of International Relations at the Center for Global Affairs at NYU and is the Middle East Project Director at the World Policy Institute New York.

--

(United Press International`s ``Outside View`` commentaries are written by outside contributors who specialize in a variety of important issues. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect those of United Press International. In the interests of creating an open forum, original submissions are invited.)--

Copyright 2005 by United Press International.

HP: moi? a kindred soul with ntsyed the paper mouse!! surely you jest!!

Re #184

“Proud of... neighbors? Hmmm…

If you`re implying that ALL women married to polygamous men are miserable and envy women married to monogamous men, then thank you for proving your ignorance expected of a western anti-Muslim mainstream media headlines addict.

OTOH, if you`re trying to slander the women happily married to polygamous men, then thank you for proving your degenerated nature of a drunkard.

Either way, your ill-informed political ugliness (read ignorance - jahiliya) shoves your own feet in your mouth in this respect. I`m sure you`ll find a kindred soul in tahmed-the 32yo-baby. “


This much response for just hinting at a possibility in four words! Something snapped… Hmmm…

#184 by ntsyed

Oh boy! I love to knock the cover off these fundo nut-balls!

It is hard for fundos to look beyond their noses or even understand what is being said.
Your post#178. you described some animal functions Has the mankind changed it`s innate behaviors, i.e. eating, sleeping, procreation, blah blah blah? I provided you example of animals in your own backyard.(Islamic brethren/mankind for you) I was being very polite by just mentioning Yemenis. I should have added Saudi, Syrian, Egyptians and more of those sex starved women and child molesters par excellence!
People get mugged and groped everywhere but only animals would do it in bunches and that too on the supposedly holiest day in Muslim calendar!

“How many car factories have the anti-``modern`` mullahs destroyed or sought/seek closure of?”
Only a wide-eyed would answer the question they way you did. You take the modern education away and factories would close. Promote Madarssa and people would be weaving cotton by hand. ( 7th century economic model!). So far you have failed in every test! No wonder it was hard for you to compete in an open society. Long live Saudia!

“Can you discern the context here? Who gives a hoot how many countries have the nuclear power plants? What difference does it make if anyone has it or not?”

As Richard Whately put it: “He who is unaware of his ignorance will be only misled by his knowledge.”

I am hypnotized by your sizzling logic, I can barely speak!

“The point my tun friend, is that if Iran wants to modernize herself,”

By shutting down its people from the modern thought and knowledge! Amazing logic! Simply amazing! The reality gap is just startling. Need an industrial-size plunger to shove that down the people`s throats.

SR, Avkrishna, Vivek, Romair

I am uncertain about how we are using the term `civilization.`

For clarification: How many of us would claim that New Zealand civilization, Australian civilization, American Civilization, and Canadian civilization are different from the European civilization?

Re: # 185

Good grief, what is the world coming to....a moderate foaming and seething? What a rare sight to behold...........lol

To help you with your amnesia, follow the link to see who hurls insult at who like a madman shouting abuse to strangers on street corners....once done, stuff another appendage of yours in your mouth, which is already stuffed with your feet...this prescription seems to be quite effective for you:

Adultery Anonymous: interacts 43 & 55 by tahmed32

My responses were 52 & 58 respectively.

I look forward to see you improve your contortionist skills ;-)~~

ntsyed: what kind of an animal are you?? a paper mouse? who squeaks insults from the safety of the internet like a madman shouting abuse to strangers on street corners?

i dont mind providing the rationale for anything i have written - or if i have said something wrong, i dont mind taking back what i said. So if you have a problem with anything i have written, cut and paste it and i will look at it. But, knowing you, i realize that is way beyond your intellectual capacity.

Re: # 182

Why animals need to be Islamized?
Because otherwise they become Pharoas, Goliaths, Hitlers, Sharons, GWB, Mushy, etc and their underlings like tahmed, hamidm2, and HP, to name just a few.

Why animals need to go to Hajj where Yemeni Muslim men are poking 50-70 years old women from behind!

Mr Political Science Heavyweight...one would expect you`d already knew that there are always the good, the bad, and the ugly in every society. Thus, there`s the concept of law, reward, punishment, justice, and what have you, to ensure security and prosperity for as many as possible. Still some will violate those codes, and they should be, and will be punished.

But by your standard, if one is mugged, groped, goosed in a NY subway (which is many times more frequent than the unsubstantiated incident you allege), he/she should never go to the annual conferences and events held in that city or even if Pope visits.

Want to know what modernization is? It is like having a factory to build cars and it is like having schools instead of Madarssa to educate your kids.

How many car factories have the anti-``modern`` mullahs destroyed or sought/seek closure of? How many do they prevent from establishing? The lack of foreign investment is not due to the mullah factor, they`re just being scapegoated becuase at least on the surface they denounce exploitation of women and entire culture. Instead its due to the unprecedented plundering by the ``democratic`` and military governments, especially since Mr. 10% and NS`s freezing of the $$ accounts after securing his and his loved one`s wealth.

How many schools have they shut down?

By that measure, the hypocrisy of some mullahs notwithstanding, what have the MODERNISTS done to ensure that children from all economic classes get proper education?

How have they maintained, let alone revived, the education in Pak?

I`ll tell you what one of the ``Renowned`` School System does... with over 100 branches throughout Pakistan, owned by someone very close to an ex-PM, makes sure that the tuition keeps rising and the payroll keeps falling. In one word it is called ``BUSINESS`` - at the expense of future. Rest assured, there are many more like them. The whole educational system is dominated by these fiends - from primary schools to post graduate institutions.

When you shut out the children and people with less money - Madarssa, cheap manual labour, or violence, beocme the only options for them to survive. What do you expect the people to do when you convert their God-given right into a privilege? Are they not even supposed to turn to God in the face of such wanton tyranny?

So who forces them out of education and which one(s) of the above options would have them choose?

BTW, if you had seen the inside of some madrassas lately, you couldn`t miss the physics, chemistry and computer labs. While reading/understanding Quran and hifz are more important to live and die with dignity, other aspects of this life are not ignored either. In fact, understanding of Quran allows them to live a content and peaceful life if left alone. Otherwise, as is the case today, they`re not afraid to die either becuase everything must end and until then they`d rather fight for their rights than to relinquish them. OTOH, the modernists are scared sh*tless at the mere thought of problems in life and inevitability of death.

You know what hypocrisy is? It is like sending your daughter to the med school but asking the rest to go to masjid and Madarssa!

Refer to the underlined question above (in the para before last) for the answer. It`s the gora mentality that you`re trying to superimpose on Muslims. With the convents and seminaries, they ensured the colonists and their loyal dogs got educated and the masses remained considerably less literate to maintain the status quo.

Typical Mullah logic. Do you even know how many countries have nuclear power plants?

lol...typical tun disoriented modernist illogic!

Can you discern the context here? Who gives a hoot how many countries have the nuclear power plants? What difference does it make if anyone has it or not?

The point my tun friend, is that if Iran wants to modernize herself, then why are numb-nut GWB`s and their progeny - namely you guys - trying to prevent that? Don`t you think they`ll create more jobs, produce more goods, provide better lifestyle for their people even if they develop nuclear weapon? The US, UK, France, Russia, and China are ample proof of that, aren`t they? Why don`t the Iranians have the same right? Still you contend that you`re not talking with both sides of your numbed (with alcohol) mouth?

Why they all are not being singled out? From South America to Asia and Africa to Europe numerous countries have nuclear power plants. Why only one country is a suspect?

Because my western-mainstream-media-indoctrinated friend, Iranian nuclear power plant checks the Israeli illegal expansionism; boosts her own economy which may very well invite labour from neighboring countries to help their economies; provide cheaper and more fluent energy to her own citizens as well as neighbors...I`m sure you can find multitude of other reasons that undermine the western hegemony in the region. The latter already has its hands full with China and rising Islamism across this region - not just ME.

Rest assured, in case you haven`t been up to date with IAEA and European reports, neither Iran possesses nuclear weapons now, nor does she have the capability to do so in the near future. Even if she did, she could not use it on anyone in this region. Just like the other nations with nuclear weapons, it will deter her enemies - mainly Israel and the West - from venturing into her sovereign territories and controlling her economy, politics, judiciary, social norm, mores, etc.

IRP has been murdering for the last twenty years it is time for some accounting! IRP initiated murders, killings and tortures, people are just getting back. All groups are completely justified in destroying the Murder inc. in Iran. More will join and hopefully govts that care for human rights will take out the murder Inc. from Iran.

Thank you for justifying the Palestinian, Chechen, Kashmiri, Afghani, Balochi, and Iraqi insurgencies as well as global anti-westernism since CIA, KGB, RAW, ISI, MI, and Mossad have been murdering much longer than last twenty years. Bagram and Gitmo, to name just a couple, are just the latest in that long sordid history - tip of the iceberg.

Also pertinent, your reasoning also proves Ruby Rigde, Waco, Tim McVeigh and ilk to be on the just side of the debacles. I hope you don`t suffer from tahmed and hamidm2`s selective amnesia on this issue.

Furthermore, the slaughter of Pakistani secular, fuedal, political and the NaPak military elite will be fully justified in lieu of at least 30 years of plundering and murders of the masses at the behest of western masters.

Do you still wish to stand by your comment? Or do you have the courage to correct yourself?

The truth of the matter is that the Darwinian west and its bastardized third-world hyphenated-pseudo-westerners (paki-american, paki-brit) are crying foul when the oppressed of the world, particularly the Muslims, are fighting back for their survival as the fittest. They (the disoriented-hyphenated-slaves) even resort to stealing trademark comments ``love america or leave it`` of the bigoted and racist Aryan Brothers, KKK, Skinheads and other such organizations....lol

Imagine that! If anyone has that right, it`s the Native Americans - not the gora encROACHErS, and certainly not his black and brown slaves. This hyphenated breed is just another form of wet-backs for the gora, but the former is loving it too lol

I hope soon there will be a law against such pathetic and insecure behavior.

You don’t know what good life is…

LOL....is that it? What a pathetic loser response. I was hoping you`d be better than that.

JSYK, by the Graces of the Almighty, I`m enjoying a very good mortal life with health and wealth of my large family. And I hope to have a 10x better eternal life with His Mercy, even if He places me at the bottom of the Paradise. But that concept seems quite foreign to you, so never you mind that part. Focus on twisting my words instead ;-)~~

Proud of... neighbors? Hmmm…

If you`re implying that ALL women married to polygamous men are miserable and envy women married to monogamous men, then thank you for proving your ignorance expected of a western anti-Muslim mainstream media headlines addict.

OTOH, if you`re trying to slander the women happily married to polygamous men, then thank you for proving your degenerated nature of a drunkard.

Either way, your ill-informed political ugliness (read ignorance - jahiliya) shoves your own feet in your mouth in this respect. I`m sure you`ll find a kindred soul in tahmed-the 32yo-baby.

Re: # 62

hamidm2:

............ i am glad you have come to the conclusion that iran is a better place to live than the us - but i am staying right here where my daughters are can go out without some bearded freak chasing them with a stick for showing a wisp of hair !.........

........... it is really amazing how some people`s better judgement is clouded by blind hatred !

You, Uncle Sam`s dearly slaved...sorry beloved,...hehehe, exemplify the last part of your statement better than anyone here.

what the heck is a ``supreme leader`` and how come an unelected ``council of guardians`` has to approve candidates running in the so called elections ????

Could anyone shed some light on whether ``Election Commision`` in the US or elsewhere is an elected body?

#178 by ntsyed
ntsyed

Having hard time swallowing…the truth!

“Has the mankind changed it`s innate behaviors, i.e. eating, sleeping, procreation, blah blah blah”

NO!
Why animals need to be Islamized? Why animals need to go to Hajj where Yemeni Muslim men are poking 50-70 years old women from behind! Why these animals need to be taught anything. Just let them go around and around the Big black stone like bulls with eyes covered.
Want to know what modernization is? It is like having a factory to build cars and it is like having schools instead of Madarssa to educate your kids.
You know what hypocrisy is? It is like sending your daughter to the med school but asking the rest to go to masjid and Madarssa!

“With one side of their mouths these Chalabis (read jalebees) claim the Muslims do not wish to modernize, from the other side they bark that Iran should not modernize her energy source with a nuclear power plant.”

Typical Mullah logic. Do you even know how many countries have nuclear power plants? Why they all are not being singled out? From South America to Asia and Africa to Europe numerous countries have nuclear power plants. Why only one country is a suspect?

“MK is justified in its attacks against IPR, but IPR is unjustified in retaliation. WOW”

IRP has been murdering for the last twenty years it is time for some accounting! IRP initiated murders, killings and tortures, people are just getting back. All groups are completely justified in destroying the Murder inc. in Iran. More will join and hopefully govts that care for human rights will take out the murder Inc. from Iran.

“These people are nothing more than headline nerds without a children, wife, and life...sitting at chowk desperately seeking lazy susans with their undefined modernity,”

You don’t know what good life is…

“At least us polygmous mullahs with lots of children have fuller lives...and the wives are damn proud of it too ;-)~~

Proud of... neighbors? Hmmm…

isnt civilization a medieval concept?

# 178, # 179 # Romair:

Actually I take back my interpretation of what you said. I agree with your statement when you compared India with Europe. I realized that what I said to India applies equally well to Europe.

SR, Ntsyed: Thanks for quickly pointing it out...

Anyways, interesting discussion from everyone about the definition of civilization..

- Avkrishna

India is not like Europe, or is it? Re: # 175

{``... Hindu civilizations is a geographical continuum... very much linked to the neighbour[s].

So ... a punjabi [has] nothing in common with a Tamilian... But ... a lot in common with a person from the neighbouring ... states who have a lot in common with the ... Deccan ... who have a lot in common with the southern regions....etc ``}

European civilizations is a geographical continuum very much linked to the neighbours.

So a Dane has nothing in common with a Portugese... But ... a lot in common with a person from the neighbouring ...states who have a lot in common with the ...French who have a lot in common with the southern regions...etc.

...SR

Re: # 32

What are these HP, tahmed32, hamidm2 and ilk are referring to as ``modernizations`` anyway?

Has the mankind changed it`s innate behaviors, i.e. eating, sleeping, procreation, blah blah blah?

NO.

So, what needs to be modernized? I think we should let our Modernized folks explain to us, and watch them trip over their tongues. Come on boys, let it out and be ready to have it all shoved back in.

I`m sure it`s an endless list that our over enthusiastic, brainwashed, ethnocentric, xenophobic, warmongering, narcissist, inebriated ``Khan Bahadurs, Good Doggies`` can provide in no time.

Technologcially though, they`re proud that US is throwing a little more dog biscuits in the form of ``Call Center Outsourcing`` because ... ``ambitious`` Pakistanis (if only they knew him personally) managed to produce cheaper labour than others. That`s right, these doggies have finally accepted, albeit with ``be-ghairti``, that they`re more expendable than other third world countries.

How well do you know PSEB?

What about Pak Planning Commission...do you have any clue what kind of tech ideas and plans they`re sitting on?

How many incubators - tech and mixed use - do you see propping up in Pak? TMT, the most famous in KHI has yet to graduate a client, and it`s a for-profit tech incubator. And incubators are economic catalysts to boost the economy.

How many R&D institutions have you seen in Pak and what is the mushy/shauki govt doing to promote them?

With one side of their mouths these Chalabis (read jalebees) claim the Muslims do not wish to modernize, from the other side they bark that Iran should not modernize her energy source with a nuclear power plant.

MK is justified in its attacks against IPR, but IPR is unjustified in retaliation. WOW

Get your act together intellectually constipated Mr. Political Shittists.... Uncle is fixin` to give you a couple of straight shots (right in the head if he take pity on ya) as soon as your fleas infested coats are not worth wiping his shoes on....just like they did on Pinochet, Saddam, Manuel Noriega, etc

These people are nothing more than headline nerds without a children, wife, and life...sitting at chowk desperately seeking lazy susans with their undefined modernity, no direction whatsoever except what the Uncle dictates, and utterly void of logic, rationale, and common sense....all they know is spreading hatred against anything Muslim/Islamic while accusing the mullahs of the same.

At least us polygmous mullahs with lots of children have fuller lives...and the wives are damn proud of it too ;-)~~

tahmed, do you feel like going somewhere again.... to check if monogamous marriages are legitmized adultery or not? LOL

#175 by avkrishna,
``as a punjabi, have nothing in common with a Tamilian you are right.``
Not true. Most of the cultural aspects of a punjabi and a tamilian are the same. India is one culture and one civilization. Sure there are variations from one part to another, but most of the things are the same. A german and a spaniard cannot understand each other`s language either, but doesn`t mean that they are not part of the same civilization.

............................................................................................................................................................

# Romair 171

````And as I have been arguing, so does the, ``Hindu`` civilization. South Asia, alone, may have upto fifteen civilizations. It is like Europe. Not like USA. USA being one civilization, with one majority religion. While Europe is multiple civilizations with one majority religion.````

No, it is not. Hindu civilization might have some elements of diversity in it and one may call them ``sub civilizations``, but there are a few solid binding forces which run through all of them..

The gods we pray, the reverence all Hindus have to places from Manasarovar to Kedarnath to Kasi to Tirupathi to Rameswaram, the langauage which influences and holds all of us (i.e. Sanskrit) etc. are the binding forces I have talked about.

In fact, Hindu civilizations is a geographical continuum of these sub-civilizations which are very much linked to the neighbouring ones.

So when you say you, as a punjabi, have nothing in common with a Tamilian you are right. But you have a lot in common with a person from the neighbouring Hindi speaking states who have a lot in common with the central Deccan states who have a lot in common with the southern regions....

Thanks,
Avkrishna

I think if there has to be one single most significant defining criteria of civilization, it would be spoken language. People who speak the same language(or at least share a common ancestor language) tend to share a common ``civilization``.

Re: 172

Pakistan will always remain two civilisations even after 1000 years, one represented by people like you and another by people like urstruly, echoboom and ntsyed

Dost-mittar #170: ``Given the diversity of the land, one may even consider it a fusion of more than one civilizations.``

Perhaps. However, I don`t think the fusion has not occured yet, other than the relgion(s). Just look at the languages. I cannot understand a word of Tamil. Or Sindhi, or Baluchi for that matter.........It may occur, if the geographical boundaries of the countries, remian intact for a few hundred years.

I would think that your definition of civlization is too abstract. If one looks at it that way, then the whole world is a fusion civilization, of human beings. I supposed in the context of the universe with alien beings, that would be correct. But, within the earth, itself, that would be too broad.

Civilizations have to have certain commonalities. Geography is the main defining feature, in my opinion. However, it is not just generic geography. It is the impact that the geography has had on the people, thereby dividing them upto into different civilizations. Historic India could be considered one geographic unit. However, it has far too many diversities inside it to be considered that. How did so many ethnicities, languges, etc. devleop?

There must have been some reasons due to which people of one area remained, ``locked`` within certain parts of India, and interacted with each other, thereby developing a civilization, a language, customs etc. Seas, mountains, rivers, forests, deserts etc. must have caused it.

At the simplest level, suppose there are two rivers. One group settles around one river. The second settles around the other river. Two civilizations start. Over centuries, they develop langauges, physical features, social customs, distinct clothes, etc. Then one converts to Islam, the other to Bhuddhism. But they still live by their same rivers, and remain the same civilizations, with added features due to their new religion..........

Based on that, Pakistan isn`t really an Indus civilization. It has four or more civilizations which overflow into India, Afghanistan, and Iran. But I think there is enough commonality amongst them, that they will eventually merge into one, around the Indus. In the process, certain local civilization customs will lose out........There are various factors of this commonality.............

There is a common history. There is one common language, Urdu, which is now dominating all areas. I think Punjabi etc are going to die out, if the literacy rate of Pakistan goes above, say, 80%. Other than Sindhi (and even Sindhi, really), they are now only spoken languages. There is one majority common religion (not the defining factor of a civilization, but a contributing factor none the less). There is going to be more and more inter-marrying between all provinces. There is, of course, a national boundary due to which the Pakistani civilizations, as a group, are isolated from other civilizations to some extent. Also, they are militarily secure, so on one will invade.

And most of all, there are common geographical features around which all the component civilizations are built: a large river that runs through all of them. Mountains to the north. Sea to the south. Only the east and west are open, due to which there will continue to be influences from those sides.

I think in some time, say hundred years, there will be a rather uniform, ``Indus`` civilization, around the Indus.......The fusion that you refered to.....Eventually, the same thing may happen in India, but it will take much much longer, since India has far more civilizations, languages, cultures and people.........Bangladesh is, perhaps, already at that stage.......

anil #164: ``Romair, so are you ready to join, like I do, the people who believe trashing Samuel Huntington`s classification of civilizations along the religious boundaries?``

Yes I am ready to join, as far as the ``Civilization`` part is concerned. He has attempted to chew off far too much, and has thus made it far too simplistic. On the other hand, his rebuttal, which I read, is that it is impossible to define civilizations, and he has simply made an attempt.

Most Western authors` understanding of Islam (and probably Hinduism, also) is very limited. They know next to nothing about 80% of the Islam that lies outside the Arab World. Hence they cannot understand its intracacies. And I doubt they could even speak two of the many languages in India. If that.

The, ``Islamic`` civilization, within it, has far too many civilizations. And as I have been arguing, so does the, ``Hindu`` civilization. South Asia, alone, may have upto fifteen civilizations. It is like Europe. Not like USA. USA being one civilization, with one majority religion. While Europe is multiple civilizations with one majority religion. And perhaps Canada could be considered two civilizations (Francophone and English), or perhaps one, depending on how one looks at it.

I am not sure if I disagree with the, ``Clash`` part, however. Actually his book does not really talk about, ``Clashes.`` It talks more about relationships and competitions, and their results. I think part of his, ``Western`` civilization (USA/Israel) and part of his, ``Muslim`` civilization (Arabs) are headed for a clash, if saner heads don`t prevail. And through that clash, they may drag in other countries, which are not directly involved, like Europe and Pakistan etc.

I think his Western and Sinic (Chinese) civilization are headed for a big economic clash of sorts also............

Romair#159:

I agree with a lot of what you say and would agree with you almost completely if I were a Pakistani. Pakistan is a new nation and it has to develop a new identity and `Indus Saga` provides as good a basis as any.

I agree with you that religion is not a basis of civilisation. It is not even one`s identity, although one may choose to identify with it. To me ( it may differ from the dictionary definition) a civilisation is the accomplishment of a people of a region in all forms of human endavour - arts, sciences, sports, music, dance, literature, architecture, languages, etc. When I think of Indian civilization, I think of the sum total of human endavours of the peoples of the landmass which has been historically known as India, Hindustan, Bharat, Aryavrat, etc., starting with the inhabitants of Mohenjodaro, Aryans , Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Aboriginals and everyone else. In that sense, I consider Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Chishti school, maybe even Deoband and Barelvi schools of Islamic thought as the religious/spiritual contributions of the Indian civilization to the world. In other words, instead of considering Hinduism as a civilization, I consider it as one of the products of the Indian civilisation. Given the diversity of the land, one may even consider it a fusion of more than one civilizations.

oh Romair did refer to Aitezaz Ahsan. My bad. i was responding from #162.

i got to add indus saga to my comic collection. where can i buy it? is it on amazon?

further to #165:
from the paragraph:
``that is run by its own inhabitants``

This is profound. Very high calibre Goebbles style of truth-making.

#161 by Netizen

well, we teach all kinds of govt mandated stuff like ``civics`` also drawing is taught which is not career stuff. on the other hand kids are sent to private music classes. in terms of cost of equipment, a wooden/plastic recorder (which is what kids in the us start on) should be about 20 Rs. a cheap new harmonium about 1500 Rs. not very expensive.

``And that, present-day Pakistan, after 2500 years, is the first time that a large nation has been constructed for this civilization, that is run by its own inhabitants. Up til then, other than the relatively smaller areas or timeframes of Ranjit Singh and Sher Shah, it has always been invaded from the West by Greeks, Persians, from the Northwest by Muslims and East by Hindus (yes Hindus also). And has been, in most cases, a disregarded extension of foreign empires. ``

Infact, this paragraph is brilliant not in what it tries to argue (which is absurd) but the Entity it came out of. This is Pakistan Military Academy`s idea of history looking at from Now to ``2500 years``. Very very revealing.
Also, pay attention to the spin put on by the words ``this civilisation`` - one wonders who are supposed to be included in ``this civilisation`` as Bangalis at a great human cost already had shown that they would have none of this-civilisation-crap.

Re: # 159

<<``And they are not defined primarily by religion. Though religion is a major factor, but not the defining one.

The ingredients that come to mind are geography, language, religion, culture, physical features of inhabitants, history, a social ethos etc. >>``

Romair, so are you ready to join, like I do, the people who believe trashing Samuel Huntington`s classification of civilizations along the religious boundaries?

Anil

Re: #162 Netizen:
Romair is channeling Aitezaz Ahsan`s stupid thesis from Indus Saga but sadly the wrapper he had over it in #159 wore too thin.

Re: # 159

``And that, present-day Pakistan, after 2500 years, is the first time that a large nation has been constructed for this civilization, that is run by its own inhabitants. Up til then, other than the relatively smaller areas or timeframes of Ranjit Singh and Sher Shah, it has always been invaded from the West by Greeks, Persians, from the Northwest by Muslims and East by Hindus (yes Hindus also). And has been, in most cases, a disregarded extension of foreign empires. ``

What was the religion and culture of these ``indic`` people when ``hindus`` invaded them from the east?

``Hinduism is not a civilization. Islam is not a civilization either. Both are religions.``
Hinduism is a amalgamation of several thoughts. hence you have a pantheon of gods. the word hindu is not even mentoined in Vedas/upanishads. it was adressed by outsiders. it represents the culture of the people on indian subcontinent.

Re: # 158

I think the problem is more monetary related and academic goals. Who would want to pay to the music teacher/instruments and the attitude of general public towards the usefulness of music in a highly competitive career. Even in u.s. music classes are being cut due to budgetary constraints. Few months back i watched a movie on that.

vivek, there are music conducted from banaras traditional school (bhatkhnade?) or BA Music (less desirable)local univs, no problem. they learn music and some musicology. i dont know about carnatic, but kowing madrasis, i am sure they are very organized :-)

dance is more or less guru based system and less centralized. currently e.g. drawing is taught regularly, but that is non-controversial i guess.

Dost-mittar #153: ``What are the ingredients of a civilization, according to you?``

It is difficult to define the exact ingredients. I can however tell what are not the defining ingredients. Civilizations are not based on national boundaries. There are many civilizations that cross into many nations. And there are many nations that contain more than one civilization.

And they are not defined primarily by religion. Though religion is a major factor, but not the defining one.

The ingredients that come to mind are geography, language, religion, culture, physical features of inhabitants, history, a social ethos etc. Out of all of this, in my opinion, geography has traditionally had the biggest impact on the formation of a civilization. Geography has historically forced people to be bounded into one area, and interact with each other, and construct civilizations.

Perhaps the most prominent geographical features are large rivers. People formed civilizations around large rivers like Indus, Nile, St. Lawrence, over centuries, due to need for water. Similarly mountain ranges are a factor, as they restricted movements between two areas, thereby uniquely distinguishing them from each other. Even armies had difficulties in getting around these mountains. Alps, Himalayas etc. Oceans are another feature. They divided the world into islands and isolated people within those groups.

The other importance of geography is that it rarely, if ever, changes. The Indus River and Karakoram ranges have been there for thousands of years, and will remain there for thousands of years. While the religion, physical features, govts., nations, languages etc. of the inhabitants, depending on them, will continue to change.

I got interested in all this, after reading Aitezaz Ahsan¡¦s excellent book, titled, The Indus Saga. This should be a must-read for all Pakistanis. I wrote a review for it on this site. The more I read, the more interesting it was to note that the Indus area has been amongst the most invaded in the world. And that, present-day Pakistan, after 2500 years, is the first time that a large nation has been constructed for this civilization, that is run by its own inhabitants. Up til then, other than the relatively smaller areas or timeframes of Ranjit Singh and Sher Shah, it has always been invaded from the West by Greeks, Persians, from the Northwest by Muslims and East by Hindus (yes Hindus also). And has been, in most cases, a disregarded extension of foreign empires.

India is not a civilization. It is a country. Due to its large size and long history, it is a nation of many civilizations. Pakistan is sort of a civilization, but not quite. It is a nation of four or so civilizations, which have many common factors, due to the Indus River running through its heart, and mountains to its North and Northwest and ocean to the south. So it is roughly an, ``Indus`` civilization, or converging towards one. Bangladesh seems to be a country and a civilization. Or half a civilization. The other half being in India. Bangladesh is more homogenous in language, looks etc. than India and Pakistan.

Hinduism is not a civilization. Islam is not a civilization either. Both are religions. Though Hinduism has more factors of a civilization, than Islam, since nearly all its inhabitants exist primary in one nation (India) and the religion is tightly integrated with the land that the majority of the population exists on. Unlike Islam, where 80% of the Muslims are not Arabs.

Based on this, the closest identity of a Pakistani is as an Indus man/woman and the inheritor of the Indus civilization, as argued by Aitezaz Ahsan. He is unique from the Arab civilization, the Turkish civilization, the Persian civilization, the various, ¡§Ganga¡¨ civilizations of India, yet is heavily influenced by all of them. Primarily because all of them ruled over him¡K¡K..

A person from Malayalam or Tamil Nadu, regardless of his/her religion, has no historical rights over what is today Pakistan. However, a person from Amritsar or perhaps even Delhi will have rights over it. Which is why I cannot figure out why so many Indians (from outside my civilization, including far away places like Ottowa) get offended, when I crack jokes about the history of my own people :-) If I say they were historically losers, because they got run over by every Tom, Dick, Ashok and Ghauri, that is my prerogative, I would like to think..........

Having said that, I think the best days of the Indus civilization are the present and in the future. If for no other reason, because it is now, after 2500 years, finally, secure from external invaders, due to its nuclear deterrent. And is being run by its own local inhabitants, and not by foreigners. Taxila (Islamabad and surrounding areas), after 2000 years, has been ranked as the best city to live in South Asia, with perhaps the highest priced real-estate.......It is booming, and is a capital of a country again.........Not to mention, it has many major universities in its close vicinity (GIK, UET, Quaid-e-Azam etc.) This would have never happened had it not been surrounded by its own country consisting of Indus people, and remained a remote outpost of much larger empires and nations...........

I don`t know if Pakistan is going to do much for the revival of the Islamic or Muslim world. But one would have to accept that it has already done a lot for the infrastructure and human resource development, not to mention security, of the Indus civilization........If you don`t believe me, just go look at the massive traffic jams that occur around Taxila (or Karachi for that matter).....When was the last time that happened.........It is no longer an ancient historic tiny city on the edge of British India..............It is back to its glory days........Not to mention Gwadar...........

jang,
The problem is complicated because most people in music for example, don`t have a degree in music. So how can a school hire them? I can only guess that it must be exceptionally hard to hire faculty for music because a countable few would have a phd in music.

#156 .. a smattering of history knowledge is there, maybe not mauryan history, but we know about the mauryas and ghoris and akbars, shivajis, clive and gnadhi. we may be missing all kinds details, but we are introduced to these becuase we study these in schools, and spend much time painting rana-pratap moustache on noor-jehan. what we dont study is details of micro-histories of smaller kings..e.g. pallavas or devgiri etc. but rest of the heritage is simply left out as if it does not exist. at this point, if these were to be introduced in schools, there would be a huge hue and cry by various factions.

jang,
Agreed with you on the lack of knowledge of classics part, but this aspect is not just restricted to classics but also our knowl