Dusk

Miriam K

Very apt of you to bring up Allen Ginsberg’s “howl”. A truly inspirational poet. The poem`s plummeting hallucinatory style and the subsequent obscenity trial which it provoked, not too dissimilar to the venom being lashed out on this forum ! was an eye-opener to many a literary critic.

I am enamored by Ginsberg’s “howl” and its ability to communicate scenes, characters and situations drawn from his own experience, and the community of poets, artists, political radicals, drug addicts and psychiatric patients which he encountered.

Miriam “Howl” goes on to lament at the state of America, named as `Moloch` in the poem. In my soul there lurks a similar lament, especially for South Asia, which I see as such a cradle for potential and opportunity being misused, misplaced and misguided.

Ginsberg was inspired to write Part II of “Howl” when he saw a hotel as a monster he named Moloch during a “peyote” vision, and much of the section itself was written while under that same “peyote” influence.

Part III of howl is directly addressed to Carl Solomon, whom Ginsberg met whilst both were patients at Rockland, a psychiatric hospital, and relates shared experiences, hopes and fears.

Despite the ferocity of vindictive social critique against him, Miriam and fellow Chowkies witness the piercing depth of Ginsberg. When reading these parodied debut lines of Ginsberg I was merely in awe:

``I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the streets at dawn looking for an angry fix (Hamid M perhaps LOL !!!)

Ginsberg continues:
``……who lounged hungry and lonesome through Houston seeking jazz or sex or soup, and followed the brilliant Spaniard to converse about America and Eternity, a hopeless task, and so took ship to Africa …(Miriam you can tell that Ginsberg, has widely trotted the globe)

``who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space through images juxtaposed, and trapped the archangel of the soul between 2 visual images and joined the elemental verbs and set the noun and dash of consciousness together jumping with sensations of Pater Omnipotens Aeterna Deus `` (note a gleaming spirituality in Ginsberg`s work).

Miriam what inspires you most about Ginsberg ?

from dictionary.com:

ped·ant·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pdn-tr)
n. pl. ped·ant·ries
Pedantic attention to detail or rules.
An instance of pedantic behavior.
The habit of mind or manner characteristic of a pedant.

pedantry

n : a ostentatious and inappropriate display of learning

from sul at chowk.com:

Pedantry: simply the needlessly personal and offensive name calling. . .

--
close enough or no cigar? offensive name calling an inappropriate display of learning? or this word used in the context it was an inappropriate display of learning? greater things heaven and earth that are dreamt of in whose philosophy horatio?! (yes, i do know what the correct verse is, thank you)

Re: # 92

Saj,

This piece may come across as incomprehensible to yourself for it is steeped in metaphor. It is just my personal mode of committing thoughts to electronic format. It can be interpreted from various angles.

A most commonly held belief is that ``dusk`` is
a lament vis-a-vis postmodern society and all its underpinnings. An emblem of angst/depression weaved into a contradiction-laden world.

Basically Im venting off my spleen with regards to urban living, its sheepish mandates and its ill-begotten actors.

Dear Dear me...what a set of pedantic replies to a completely incomprehensible article. Me thinks all here, including the author can come up with better ways of expressing their creativity on Chowk.

sul #87 You were accusing hamidm of pedantry, which was surprising, so I asked you to look up the meaning of the word and provide an example. You surprised me even more by coming back with a totally incorrect definition, which clearly shows you did not know the meaning of the word you used. My advice to you was an honest one: dont use words unless you know what they mean.

You come back with another big word, saying I ``decontextualise`` everything, meaning that in the context you used the word ``pedantry`` it was OK!! Rest assured it was not - you simply used a big word without knowing what it meant.

At this point I give up. Have a nice day.

Re: # 89

No. You asked me for examples. I did not cut and paste but gave you a very simple reference. I did not give you the definition because I sought not to insult your intelligence.

And please try and follow the thread of the post. I did not accuse you of decontextualising anything. I was responding to hamidm2. You can carry on accusing me of not knowing what words mean. It may be true for others, but it does not apply to me.

I`m not on this website to debate the semantics and nuances of words, nor am I here to prove the range of vocabulary. So whilst I appreciate yor advice, I`m sorry to say you missed the mark. That said however, I revert to my former statement and say that this aimless quibbling of whose danda (Read: vocabulary) is bigger is the prime example of engaging in pedantry.

No matter how you or others respond, I have more important matters to which I must attend. This therefore is my last post on who said what. If anyone wants to debate the peice, and can do so without being vindictive or personal, I`ll be happy to respond. Otherwise, for those who think I use words that are too big for me to grasp: if it makes you sleep better at night, let that thought entertain you.

Good Day!

.......... i thought i`d summarize this gibberish for the chowk readership; here is my humble effort :

Big Ben
Usher
MartiKa
Nokia
Louis Vuitton
Enzo
Martini
Penn
Del Toro
Tsunami
Purple Haze
Blair
Ashes
Saville-Row
Bush
Mush
Mugabe
Oscar Wilde
Sloanie
Bruce Almighty
Chardonnay
Polaroid
Davidoffs
Houdini
Virginia Woolf

............ wow !!!......... this guy knows a lot of bovine excrement !

Re: # 83

hamidm,

I say this with all due respect but that is grossly unfair. You can perform that little trick with innumerable pieces of writing; prose or poetry. Especially so with poetry of the post-modern genre which is characterized by free verse.

I can certainly appreciate the spirit of your criticism but your method leaves something to be desired.

If you find this particular contribution so loathsome, instead of harassing the man why don`t you take the dignified route and write a pithy critique and post it on Chowk. Indeed the values the Arts and Letters inculcate demand nothing less. I for one would be interested in reading what you had to say given you presented it in a collected and rational manner.

Re: # 84

Miriam K

Very apt of you to bring up Allen Ginsberg’s “howl”. A truly inspirational poet. The poem`s plummeting hallucinatory style and the subsequent obscenity trial which it provoked, not too dissimilar to the venom being lashed out on this forum ! was an eye-opener to many a literary critic.

I am enamored by Ginsberg’s “howl” and its ability to communicate scenes, characters and situations drawn from his own experience, and the community of poets, artists, political radicals, drug addicts and psychiatric patients which he encountered.

Miriam “Howl” goes on to lament at the state of America, named as `Moloch` in the poem. In my soul there lurks a similar lament, especially for South Asia, which I see as such a cradle for potential and opportunity being misused, misplaced and misguided.

Ginsberg was inspired to write Part II of “Howl” when he saw a hotel as a monster he named Moloch during a “peyote” vision, and much of the section itself was written while under that same “peyote” influence.

Part III of howl is directly addressed to Carl Solomon, whom Ginsberg met whilst both were patients at Rockland, a psychiatric hospital, and relates shared experiences, hopes and fears.

Despite the ferocity of vindictive social critique against him, Miriam and fellow Chowkies witness the piercing depth of Ginsberg. When reading these parodied debut lines of Ginsberg I was merely in awe:

``I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the streets at dawn looking for an angry fix (Hamid M perhaps LOL !!!)

Ginsberg continues:
``……who lounged hungry and lonesome through Houston seeking jazz or sex or soup, and followed the brilliant Spaniard to converse about America and Eternity, a hopeless task, and so took ship to Africa …(Miriam you can tell that Ginsberg, has widely trotted the globe)

``who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space through images juxtaposed, and trapped the archangel of the soul between 2 visual images and joined the elemental verbs and set the noun and dash of consciousness together jumping with sensations of Pater Omnipotens Aeterna Deus `` (note a gleaming spirituality in Ginsberg`s work).

Miriam what inspires you most about Ginsberg ?

Re: # 94

Ozer,

Glad to see you show up. Quite honestly Ozer the last time I was on Chowk was several years go but in the last couple of days I have scanned several forums and it seems the exchange of vitriol is commonplace. I happened upon Ms. Rizvi’s piece “Parents and the Pill” and thought it incisive and delightful but was dismayed to find the forum had taken quite an other turn.

As for what I find inspiring about Ginsberg. Well, I confess to not knowing much of the man but I am in awe of “Howl”. It is the english language at its’ most elemental and piercing. And yes that first sentence….to have that kind of perspicacity and then the ability to express it. A divine gift indeed!

Re: # 84

miriamk.

......... i wouldn`t know ``poetry of the post-modern genre`` if it fell on my head, but i do know bs when i step into it - there is a lot of that stuff out there being flung around by all sorts of dubious characters ..........

........... look, i don`t claim any expertise in ``the values of arts and letters`` since i studied more mundane, but less obtuse and more useful, stuff like calculus and hydraulics, but it really bothers me when some arted and lettered fella tries to take us poor folks for a ride - i am fighting for the rights of the common man ........ i have a suspicion - that is yet to be proven - that there are a lot of people who are getting away with bloody murder in the name of art ......... take that fellow picasso - a talented artist, no doubt - but i am sure that he was laughing all the way to the bank when he drew two lines that vaguely resembled a woman`s butt, craftily titled it femme, and everyone applauded ........ who says a fool is not born every minute of the day ! .........

........... i don`t find this particular ``contribution`` particularly loathsome, but it is a prime example of somone with delusions of literary grandeur trying to get away with it yet again .......... it is the sheer dishonesty of this...... this ..... evil enterprise that bothers the crap out of me !............ it is no different than slick corporate types rigging the markets to bilk the small investors, or con artists preying on eighty year old grandmothers .........

........... i like the thought of being a crusader for the truth for a few days until i can find a new cause .........



p.s. i just ordered harry frankfurt`s ``On Bullshit`` after seeing him on sixty minutes earlier this evening - it seems i am not the only one who thinks there is too much bs in the world ......... and all of us continue to contribute to this heap of offal ...........

Re: # 85

hamidm:

I think the contention on what qualifies as “good” art and what as “bad” art is interminable. It has existed since time immemorial and thank God for that. Where would a civilized society be without vigorous debate and dialogue.

Your allusion to Prof. Frankfurt’s thesis is quite apt to an extent. There are several works of “art” at MoMA, which have led me to impute more noteworthiness to my nephew’s refrigerator art.

However, as someone who has also studied (and is still doing so) “mundane” and “useful” things like calculus I have still managed to cultivate a reverence for art and literature. (I blame it on my dad really. His persistent dragging us to every museum in sight and inundating our home with the Classics was responsible). But the point being that the “Arts”are essential to the bedrock of any civilized society. And even though according to Prof. Frankfurt (and others) there has been an explosion of b.s in recent times, I would rather have the b.s to sift through then silence the much cherished ideal of freedom of expression.

There is something to be said about the popular quotation: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

And on a parenthetical note may I add that If I ever have pots that need a stirring I will
be sure to call upon you. You do a commendably amusing job of it in spite of the misguided brusqueness :).

Re: # 106

Miriam K

You verbalize ``I would rather have the b.s to sift through then silence the much cherished ideal of freedom of expression``. This is a tellingly wholesome world-view.

More so, you articulate “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.

This is by the startling French philosopher Voltaire [François Marie Arouet] (1694–1778). One of my all-time fave quotes !

Re: # 106

Miriam K

Professor Harry Frankfurt ingeniously pontifies `` BS has no actual relationship with the truth or falsity of the statements at all. Unlike lies, which depend on a construct of truth to succeed, BS stands aside from any objective thought of unreality and becomes, he says, a tool for asserting sincerity``. Miriam in other words what seems like BS to some is sincerity to others !!! It is all premised on value-judgments is it not ?

Re: # 85

hamidm...you and I have more in common in than either of probably thought we did. :-)~~

Phir bhi...is ko bachcha samajh k chhor do yaar. ab to becharay ki bolti bund hai.....lol

sul #811 :Pedentry means ``needlessly personal and offensive name calling``!!!?? puhleeeese!! dont use words unless you know what they mean - go look up the dictionary and dont dare write another post on chowk until you have done that.

Jesus S. Christ!! I new we pakistanis were bloody incompetent. but this is disgusting!!