Dusk

Ozer,
You NEED to get out of that dark and dingy city named London, in a rather wet and dreary island called the UK and visit somewhere loud, vibrant and colourful like the city of Mumbai.Whaddya want?.Booze...the taps overfloweth.Music...it`s `bollywood nights` every nite.Loose women......all nationalities.Ok.You into heavy metal, techno pop??.Any kind of music your ears will hear.Jazz?......YE can go to `Jazz by the Bay` a fav of many american jazz greats, no less.Gambling?....we bet on anything over here.

Whatever ye wants ye can get over here and no depressing weather or dour ,cold people with bad teeth either.ANYTHING, including my suggestions, you must do to overcome your depression , which is so evident from reading this essay!!.Phew!.I`m not being facetious or rude.(dis

very sincerely,

cayenne


cayenne

OZER,
cayenne is right you writing depicts depression.change of place is must.
London it self is depressing ,huge building and narrow streets.

Oz

As when I read this article for the first time, I really think your style echoes that of Mohsin Hamid. You build up the ``moths`` of society such as the urbanites ignoring the beggar, the rowdy macho ladish lads in the bar and the pseudo-intellectuals whilst creating ``smoke`` in the form of the uncertainty shrouded around this girl and her wavering commitment.

Cayenne

Your post states ``Whaddya want?.Booze...the taps overfloweth.Music...it`s `bollywood nights` every nite.Loose women......all nationalities.Ok.You into heavy metal, techno pop??.Any kind of music your ears will hear.Jazz?......YE can go to `Jazz by the Bay`

Do you not think the author is trying to show ambivalence and critique towards these post-modern artefacts and by-products ?

Ozerkhalid

This is an incredible piece of poetry ! It reveals a soul trapped in the confines of modernity trying to emerge out of its flames. It has a leftist/Marxist undertone with a nihilistic/Kafkaesque view toward society.

One of the best pieces I have read in a long time !

ozerkhalid a very profound and polished piece, yet there is one discrepancy:

``You are earnestly drinking and fair-mindedly chewing on Davidoffs. Spraining to invoke the illusion of permanence. There is NONE. ``

Above you revoke the presence of ``permanence`` like an article of faith. Yet in another sentence your article reads `` You long for some certainty yet remain consumed by the transient``.

Here you critique the ``transient``.

So by revoking ``permanence`` on the one hand and ``transience`` on the other what do you believe in ? Is this not a contradiction ?

Husna you say ``It reveals a soul trapped in the confines of modernity trying to emerge out of its flames``. But surely modernity is not under fire in this article ? Rather it is stoking the flames... Is it not ?

Ozer

Your piece reeks of Albert Camus-type existentialism. It seems that the narrator is caught by the surroundings. Is it auto-biographical or pure fiction ?

Re: # 5
Husnaangelique

Though this piece is dark and obscurantist, it is more Sartre than Kafka. Witness how the narrator is consumed by the sheer superficial veneer of society and the entourage rather than victimizing and wallwowing in Kafka-styel self-pity.

Re: # 1
Cayenne you suggest that the author needs to ``get out of that dark and dingy city named London``. Though this writing and its symbolisms, the Big Ben, cobbled streets, red buses clearly describe London with a Dickensian touch (notice the comments on the beggar), I think the author is referring to urban decay of a moral fabric in general and not ``London`` in particular. He only uses London as an epitomy of degradation.

Re: # 7
Kulsumbeig

But surely modernity is not under fire in this article ? Rather it is stoking the flames... Is it not ? Analyze global events around you from 9/11, to Abu Ghreib, from the bombings in Madrid, Istanbul, Bali and Tel Aviv. Are these not signs of modernity being under fire !

Stoking the flames ? What are you on about. Terrorism stokes the flames if anything. The dictats of propoganda-based Madrassas are responsible for that, along with Western display of muscle in foreign policy. Why would modernity ever stoke its own fire ?

Re: # 9 moazammudasar

``Though this piece is dark and obscurantist, it is more Sartre than Kafka.``

Moazammudasar notice certain bits of this paper like ``Their Polaroid anorexic snapshot existences will click away without a flash`` or ``Oh babe the system swallows you like a Tsunami as though you are its natural victim`` or most gruellingly ``My blood-red patience wears thinner than a bulimia-laden epidemic``.

If this does not sound like Kafka in its tone, then what does ??

Re: # 6 good point kulsum ! interesting observation...

Re: # 2
cipram you mention ``cayenne is right you writing depicts depression.change of place is must. London it self is depressing ,huge building and narrow streets.``

this ``change`` is not needed from the city of london, it is needed from society as a whole. it is needed from a girl who is obviously buying time and leaving everything to fate. it is needed from the capitalist econo-political imposed superstructure. it is needed from the ``chattering`` classes of society who say one thing and do another.

The author leaves an audience opaquely captivated: is ``Dusk`` about an intriguing love affair about to explode into oblivion ? Or a society mandated with norms that ostracize morality. my opinion would incline: Ozerkhalid is interestingly trying to herald both dimensions into one caption: a micro element (entanglement with the lady) and macro element ( affliction with environment).

the constant flux between micro and macro is like a Tarantino plot, forwarding and rewinding. heralding both dimensions brilliantly is this piece`s chief signature.almost cinematic !

ozerkhalid

prolific piece ! dusk draws gravitas from the fact that it exudes contemporary lingo such as
“Usher-ishly caught up” ``playas pimp chrome hydraulics`` and ``A Nokia is answered. A Louis Vuitton is shouldered`` these are all accompaniments of a J-LO P/dIDDY heralded ``blingocracy``, and by using such catchphrases you are appealing to a younger, wider and broader audience with an underlying serious message/s

these contemporary catch-phrases may sound urban, jazzy and sexy but the message is so buried under them that a distracted reader may start glamorizing the very lingo you are using sarcastically

Re: # 15
kulsumbeig

interesting to note that p almodovar also espouses a similar tarantino-esque genre to his film-making

Re: # 14 husna your logic

``it is needed from a girl who is obviously buying time and leaving everything to fate``

does not hold water.

i do not think ``the girl`` in dusk is leaving things to fate, like Mohsin hamid`s mumtaz she is craftily weaving a plot, witness how Ozer writes:

“She” absorbs the ‘All hail’ speech, breathing in his words like Himalayan air- She`s no Palin mountain-climber. Purposely pretending to be distracted?

her purpose-laden pretending to be distracted is a sign of ulterior motives

Re: # 11

moazammudasar you cliam that ``Terrorism stokes the flames if anything. The dictats of propoganda-based Madrassas``

cool down the hyper-bole not every malady in society can be pegged down to the ``madrassas``

Ozerkhalid

Though ``dusk`` is flawless I notice an integrity issues with you: a contradiction in your work. In a previous article entitled ``UK General Elections 2005`` you praise tony blair on his triumph at 10 downing street yet in ``dusk`` you note:

She” listens to Blair holler, bark, entranced by his showmanship, craftsmanship and delivery: reminiscent of bowlers during the Ashes. “She” absorbs the ‘All hail’ speech, breathing in his words like Himalayan air-

Seems like you are criticising him here ? What is your stance on blair ? do you support him or not ? stop sitting on the fence ? what happened to journalistic integrity ?

Re: # 19 husna

you are asking me to ``cool down the hyper-bole not every malady in society can be pegged down to the ``madrassas``. AS a matter of fact education is a universally accepted basic infrasturcture on which society is built. If society starts polluting the ears of enfeabled young innocents then yes they can be blamed for global terror.

Look at the root of the tree. Not its branches.

Re: # 20

thunder you quote ``Seems like you are criticising him here ? What is your stance on blair ? do you support him or not ? stop sitting on the fence ? what happened to journalistic integrity ?

listen do not digress from the subject-matter. ``dusk`` has nothing to do with the UK General Elections. Get over it. That topic is done and dusted.

Learn how to move on. Stop nit-picking everything the author says.

Re: # 11

moazammudasar,

could you please define a few terms (in your following comment) for us: ``Terrorism stokes the flames if anything. The dictats of propoganda-based Madrassas are responsible for that, along with Western display of muscle in foreign policy. Why would modernity ever stoke its own fire?``

1. Terrorism
2. Madarssas
3. Modernity

Thanks

Re: # 23
NT Syed

1. Terrorism: loonie Bins hiding in caves. Using unnessesary violence/force against innocent civilians to further their own cause. Any network/organization seeking to use pressure-tactics to justify ideological/religious/political ends.

2. Madrassas: breeding grounds for terrorists.

3. Modernity: globalisation. capitalism. internet age.

Re: # 1

Hey Cayenne

A few readers took what you said to me LITERALLY (LOL). Are you on vacation yet ? With internet-fuelled action ? Sorry you had a balcony seat to watch Brain-Dead Bravado !! Re: this article: Depression and mood-swings are in tune with the natural state of being, in tandem with prolific William Shakespeare:

``There are tides in the life of man``. (Julius Ceasar, with reference to the Ides of March 15th)

These ebbs and flows pre-require balance. Though with the ``metaphorical`` gravitational pull of gravity it is impossible to control the vagaries of high-tides and low-tides. Surely part of nature`s intention I surmize ?

One counters all the tides.

As baggage.

The High.

And the Low.

Dear Readers:

Undeniably a posse of prodigious authors have graced our pages: exploding onto the scene: Albert Camus, Karl Marx, Franz Kafka, Jean Paul-Sartre and the inimitable Mohsin Hamid. It is gladdening to see comparisons being made. Yet endless debates by certain participants on Chowk as to whether ``Dusk`` conformeth to a Kaka-esque Camus-Esque or Sartrian/Marxist genre should not bear gravitas.

For it conformeth to all. Yet conformeth to none. It takes a body and shape of its own.

Mind-numbing theoretical neatness as to whether this typology of writing fits into one particular brand: existentialist, neo-realist, marxist is irrelevant. Why the sudden fever of categorisation ? Certain works of art, be they paintings, architecture etc... are non-conformist, non-discript, or perhaps a luminously cocktail blend of ``genre-defying``.

Like a lion in his den : This debate can theoretically and frantically roar, rage and fume, though these exercises dilute the core and underlying message behind ``Dusk``

So many other authors have influenced me: Francis Fanon, Arundhati Roy, Voltaire, Anita Desai, Rohinton Mistry, Vikram Seth, Bharati Mukherjee--the list is legion.

All Im saying is that it is too ``Western`` a tendency to grope towards some understanding of the turbulence in our post-modern universe through theoretical prisms. It is only natural that, along with the histories and the political analyses, we turn to literature. Yet rattling our ``intellectual `` sabers, offers us confining entrees and categorisations which we, as mind-using humans must dispell.

A frustration of the less fortunate in a kingdom where a rampant ``Blingocracy cosmetic ruling`` class live in Ivory Towers is disconcerting to any one with a modicum of conscience.

An economic divide has be-devilled us all: where the moneyed suits can insulate themselves from the rules that bind the rest of society.

A visceral pride felt by them of painting the earth a sickly shade of pink

When lands are littered with diabolical blood-red.

bravo ozer! well written - it does truly seem that your inspirations have been drawn from the stated authors! however, this seems to be in a world of its own!

Re: # 27

Aimie

Thanks. It would be glad to hear your interpretation ?

Indeed the divisions between gender, class, and opportunity provide a not-so-subtle commentary on the fissures that run through contemporaneous society. Tellingly, a historical/cultural fragment about the internecine wars of morality are fought on battle grounds beyond the reach of the ``meandering mass majority`` of people, in air-conditioned sanctuaries of ritzy endroits. India and Pakistan are poignant epitomes.

We are all, like Emperor Shah Jahan (builder of the Taj Mahal):
imprisoned in our own ``Agras``, receiving as gifts the ``heads`` of

innocent civilians, raped victims, genocide

Though the largest Coffin on our Conscience

``Poverty and Ignorance``

Re: # 14

Husna

A noteworthy commentary.

Inequity spirals out of control. In the outside world. We all do. From the inside.

Into a degraded existence of moth-like metamorphosis. We remain but on the fringes of society through inaction. This age-old problematique must compell us all to harbour thoughts on how to stop playing out inaction once more.

As daylight fades to ``dusk`` with time`s ticking clock against the backdrop of our bodies and lives, do we artfully weave practical solutions that resonate on many levels.

Or do we ``escape`` like lepricons into the wilderness of inactive sanctity ?

Re: # 3

Sarah

Mohsin Hamid very compellingly caricatures Mumtaz. A lady many readers indellibly identify with. Like Mumtaz the girl in ``Dusk`` lurches with an insecure/uneasy/plotting status on the fringes of an elite-laden society, imperiled by its accoustics, as she is when she hears Tony Blair`s championing slogans. Mumtaz too is fascinated by the accoustics of modernity: namely a taste for recreational drugs, infidelity and sports.

Re: # 6

Kulsum

are not ``permanence`` and ``transience`` both threads of an illusory continuum ?

Re: # 25

The flight`s at 530 am tomorrow morning.How did you know i was being facetious again?.I have to be polite on these boards, `cause of the PC police that prowl around like nosy yentas and peeping Toms, they take half the fun out of venting.Yeah , life is like the tides, like ye were pontificating, but i feel it`s more of a tummy ride, between the hollow and the bloated, and the farts in-between.I would love to discuss this in detail with you, but i have to get out of the office early, pack and deal with all the other tension you get when you decide to take a breather from the tension you already have. Have a good weekend, mon ami.Get wasted.

One more thought.Why are people from the UK , in general, dour, moody, cynical, suicidal , stingy and have bad teeth?.I`ve always wondered.Except you, of course!!!.South asians have strong teeth and gums.I shall ensconce myself in a snug bar in my hotel in Gangtok while the brood trundles off to see Mt.Kanchenjunga.Hope they get lost trying to get there till it`s time to get back to Mumbai.If only wishes were dreams!.

Re: # 11

Moazam

An interesting twist of ``semantics``

Re: # 21

Moazam

It is all too easy to sweepingly castigate every molecule of ill-doing on religion. But there are larger dynamics at play wreaking havoc with the human condition. Such as power, politics, ethnicity, gender, a legal system, feudal structures....and the shopping list goes on....

Ozer.

Great piece. At the risk of sounding somewhat pretentious (bygones in any event!), and not wishing to delve into the distant literary past, the style of this article reminds me of David Mitchell. Kudos.

This piece illuminates in vibrant detail how the transcendental reality is obscured by the echoes of our monotony; rendered opaque by the machiavellian machinations of today`s actors. The irreverential style is endearing in both its relation to the insidious vagaries of post-modernism and the sharply ironic metaphorical tip of the hat to it.

The paradox created by the vivid description of colour that evokes images of a resplendent, multi-textured world juxtaposed by reference to time and the fading light is excellent.

But the question remains. Who is the inspiration for this? At a guess I would veer away from the suggestions of others that this is a romantic personal entanglement. And for all the Kafka/ Sartre comparisons, it strikes me as shocking that your readers take the ``girl`` so literally and don`t see her as the device she is. How banal.

Aside: For those of you who see depression in his writing, it may be haunting, but don`t transpose your own insecurities to his literature. Its too revealing!

Re: # 35

Sul

Your interact most staggeringly hits the very pulse of my inner-most feelings to the fore. Your take on “machiavellian machinations of today’s actors” on the socio-political stage is poignantly well orchestrated amongst the “ruling minority” that they shrewdly take the whole audience for a royal ride ! Their contrived script has managed to fool the popolace of a sub-continent for over 56 years.

More so you type “The paradox created by the vivid description of colour that evokes images of a resplendent, multi-textured world juxtaposed by reference to time and the fading light is excellent”.

You intricately dissect the symbolism I envisaged harnessing in ``Dusk``. I did indeed try fashioning a “multi-textured world” by differentiating ``the actors`` from ``the audience``, highlighting the various complexities of a discerning yet deprived beggar (audience) to the antics of the pseudo-intellectual wise-wits (mere actors).

Sul your keen eye to detail on “fading light” is subliminally profound as I tried to climax this piece to a thundering crescendo from daylight to dawn and from dawn to pitch darkness. Sul you accentuate

“readers take the ``girl`` so literally”. This indeed is typical of those who do not read between the lines. Lest we forget that many ``mockingbirds`` are mindless rovers strolling life with no bit of purpose. Forget the “hymn sheet” these guys would not know a “chorus” if it was neon-lit staring them in the beady eye.

Sul lastly your suggestion “but don`t transpose your own insecurities to his literature. Its too revealing!” Well I must confess here again that so many readers on this e-forum unadulteratedly lash out their inner demons in a most whimsical and out-of-context manner.

Sul yours is the best interact I have read thus far. I thank you for these thoughtful comments and insights. And hope to get many more of its ilk.

That perhaps remains wishful thinking given the general callibre of most.

ozer,
very well written indeed.
I bet,you are actually a poet!
Keep it up. Much more like this will be awaited.

Although I don’t understand many of the things you wrote in your article, I do have a couple of simple (earthy) questions and am curious.

(1) I notice that a whole bunch of previously unknown new interactors have popped up on Chowk. Looking at their pages, they all joined during the second week of May 2005. They (practically exist to) only interact on your article(s), and they do so very vigorously, with you as well as with each other! How come they know you so intimately (since you are supposedly a newcomer and so are they, or have they all known you previously, are these existing fans of yours)?

(2) How come these interactors are able to read your thoughts so closely (they appear to be SOME fans), sometimes it appears that even before you have fully articulated those thoughts yourself? They also have a very similar style of interaction (for example, each one would post 2-3 interactions at one time, within minutes). (If one were not to look at the names, it may even become impossible to distinguish between which ones are yours and which ones are theirs, because everyone talks using very similarly abstract lingo (“abstract” to me, I mean. I am sure there are many Chowkies for whom this is not abstract at all, in fact may even be ``child’s play``!).)

(3) How come both you and these interactors are always awake at the most unusual hours of the day/night and the responses can come within minutes of each other?

Thank you for your time in providing a simple explanation (I am sure there must be one, even though I am not able to “get” it)!

Re: # 37

Dr Lokraj

Profound thanks for your feedback. How did you interpret ``dusk`` ?

Re: # 38

Beejay

It seems you have a lot of spare time on your hands and that Iam going through some kind of police interrogation !! Problem is you are entering without a search warrant with grotesque ineptitude. Anyways I need to justify nothing to you, but out of kindness, and since I have nothing to hide, I will adress your suspicions/queries/questions one by one:

1. ONLY two of the interactors, are personal friends of mine, and have read my poetry in other journals, newspapers and magazines since years. So whenever i write a new piece they are on my mailing list and being fans and friends they decided to join the forum to provide feedback.

2. As for the similitude of language, I see no resemblance whatsoever. Many of the interactors here fiercely criticize me or find lacunae, contradictions in my arguments, some to which I respond others I ignore as they get responded to by various other interactors. Many Chowkies launched scathing comments to my previous article UK General Elections 2005. But I always give them a piece of my unfettered mind.

3. The unusual hours of the posts are because, in case you did not realise, cross-cultural global time-zone differences, get various clocks to educate yourself Beejay. Since we are in different time zones. I live in the UK so ofcourse my hours of interacting may seem odd to Chowkies in the sub-continent.

4. As for the rapid frequency of responses, LO and Behold, certain members are logged on at similar times would you believe !! and feel an urge to comment on other people`s posts as well as mine so they post 3 or even 4 interacts at the same time.

A lot of what you asked me is mere common sense. Utilise it. It has been bestowed to you for a reason Beejay.

I would appreciate constructive comments on the article itself and not a self-stylized baselessly inept Sherlock Holmes inquiry.

Beejay #38 You are a very suspeecious man. You should be a detective - with Peter Sellers dead, perhaps you cooood bee ze new Inspectir Clouseau. Here ees your first case: it is 2:30 am where I am right now, and I am on chowk. hmmmmm....verrry suspeecious. Geeet your detective`s magnifying glass and start looking for clues.

Re: # 41

T Ahmed

Your post is hillarious. Zer iz one diferunce: Inspecteur Clouseau waz gud in hiz profession. Beejay iz onlyyy beginur

T Ahmed: your take on this article ?

#39,Dear Ozer,
This piece is like a beautiful poem or a painting.I just enjoyed very bit of it without bothering my head in trying to figure out which school of thought/philosophy it depicts.....like the old saying,``aam khao,peR kyoN gintay ho?``
But ,I admit,Sartre and the Existentialism did flash in my mind for a second.

......... i guess it is up to me to say the unsayable ........

......... this is a piece of contrived gibberish or a cruel hoax !............ the author (if you can call him that ) perposefully sat down to conjur up painful sentences that appear to be profound but are really quite meaningless - kind of like imagining all kinds of shapes and faces in fluffy clouds ............ total and complete nonsense !

.......... i call this the homi bhabha school of thoughtlessness which assumes that the reader is a moron who will be so awed by the complexity and apparent profundity that he/she will fail to see through the crap ......... awful and contrived nonsense!

......... just to make sure i wasn`t missing anything - eye of the beholder, and all that - i read this this .. whatever again .......... and again, i reached the same conclusion - it is a piece of garbage !

``Let these silicone, corduroyed Sloanie crusaders take on the world’s troubles like Bruce Almighty. They will suffer amnesia the moment they pounce back to their prized zip codes, mistresses and Chardonnay. Their Polaroid anorexic snapshot existences will click away without a flash. ``

....... let`s assume the reader doesn`t know anything about sloanie, bruce almighty, zp codes, chardonnay or polariod - now explain this !.......... and who the f*&k is bruce ?

........ and this is really precious !

``This is an incredible piece of poetry ! It reveals a soul trapped in the confines of modernity trying to emerge out of its flames. It has a leftist/Marxist undertone with a nihilistic/Kafkaesque view toward society. ``

............ the man brings along his own grovelling fan club !!!

#39
Okay, Ozer, I withdraw my suspicions. Hope no offence is taken! Others are obviously more familiar with your work than I am.

Regarding detective characters being dead, you are all aware that in the virtual world, ``people`` NEVER die! (Sometimes, they never even live.) No search warrants are ever needed! I believe that (as I explained) some of what I described appeared suspicious and I doubt that I was the only one with those questions (although it is possible) but unlike others, I do not hesitate to ask. You will be surprised how far such a little bit of skepticism (or ``ineptitude`` as you phrase it) can go in life, instead of the lofty heights that you guys (no gender implied) seem to hover around at! (Okay, I ADMIT. I NEVER READ SARTRE AND I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT EXISTENTIALISM MEANS OTHER THAN ITS LITERAL MEANING.) Also, I try not to INTENTIONALLY insult people (perhaps something that SOME others could learn from)!

I also think that (from my point of view, and perhaps from that of others, who knows) a lot of this stuff doesn`t really ``get`` anywhere, because the primary or basic audience (or perhaps, from your point of view - the ``base`` audience) simply doesn`t ``get`` it!

Your point about ``spending too much`` time on chowk may be legitimate, though! Chowk is highly habit-forming! Again, I doubt I am the only one. MANY others can beat me by a mile!

#41
Tahmed, what is this thing with you and the ``accent``? It comes and goes!

and to think that i almost missed this ``masterpiece``! ......... so let`s take it from the start :

Dusk prays for me to transform. .......... what dusk and transfor from what to what ?

he suited and booted waltz into plush watering holes. ....... okay, but it is hard to imagine people waltzing after a long day

Afternoon drinkers sprinkle out like temporal confetti quizzically pondering “where now?”. .......... what the heck is ``temporal`` cofetti ?

........Seasoned playas pimp chrome hydraulics down zebra crossings. ........ this is truly baffling even to me who knows all about playas, chrome and hydraulics !

Tourists stir their souls with titillation at the ringing bells of Big Ben. .......... sounds silly - i don`t remember being titillated by a clock

“Usher-ishly caught up” in the ephemeral. All are blind as bats. Everything falls quicker than MartiKa’s Toy Soldiers. ......... i have no idea what usher-ishly is unless we are taling about the band usher - even then it doesn`t make any sense !............ and even though i am one of the three people in the world who knows martika i don`t see the see the connection with drug addiction ........

.............. okay, maybe i am a fool who wasted all those years in college ... so i will read the next paragraph and try to make some sense out of this idiotic piece of trash ........

chowk staff,

please take this article(?) off the front page and bury it where it doesn`t see the light of day !........... it is really bothering me .......... if you don`t take it off, i will boycott the chowk for at least forty eight hours !!

# hamidm various:

My sentiments exactly. What`s with all this lingo and jargon? The only thing I got out of this is that this guy has a good vocab.. nothing more than that..

Or maybe we dont get it.. This is probably the lingo of the next gen... or the lingo of frat boys who never grew up ..

Thanks,
Avkrishna

........ i will bet you a dollar to a donut that ozerkhalid, moazmmudasr, husnaamglique, sul and sarahhashwani are one and the same person !!!! ........

.......... if not, and there are actually five people like that in the world, then we are in much bigger trouble than we thought !!!

Ozer #40 There is plenty of imagery, with a whiff of London and a touch of Paree. (ooops, go carried away myself there).

Whats the deal with the mockingbird not singing - something to do with that hillbilly lullaby (``hush little baby dont say a word, mama`s gonna git you a mockingbird, and if that mocking bird dont sing, mama`s gonna git you a diamond ring``)?? But you dont have mockingbirds in UK I think. So what`s the deal here: is it the materialistic greed that some people complain exists in the song (i.e. diamond ring?? for a baby??!!)??

hamidm is only making fun of this article because he wishes he had written it himself. So dont get discouraged.

This whole piece is so much mumbo-jumbo and little else.

Re: # 52

tahmed,

....... you old fox !.......... i agree - we should give this man a little more rope to hang himself with ! .........

``Dusk prays for me to transform. Blood-red buses blitz past the clobber. My blood-red patience wears thinner than a bulimia-laden epidemic. You are earnestly drinking and fair-mindedly chewing on Davidoffs. Spraining to invoke the illusion of permanence. There is NONE. ``

........ what the heck is clobber ??? ..... whoxse clobber is it ? .........and i have been trying to imagine a bulimia-red patience ..... i guess if you are a pretentious pompous ass you can make up anything you want, regardless of whether it makes any sense or not !!! .......... what the hell is ``fair-minded`` chewing on a cheap cigar ( you can get a box of twnty five 1000`s for less than 150 !) - no wonder we have bulimia .........spraining !!.... whoa !.......... my english teacher, the bandy legged ms flannagan, would have been proud of that one !.......... what the heck was wrong with good old ``straining`` ...... after all an old fashioned strain can cause a sprain if you try hard enough !!.............

........... pretentious, painful, and contrived !!!

p.s. chowk staff: please get this crap off the front page before i blow a gasket !

avkrishna, deja-who,

........... thank you guys for having the gonads to stand up to the tyranny of pompous fools who think they can pull the wool over our eyes .........

.......... however, i am still convinced this article is a hoax and the author will soon come out and admit it ........... if it is a serious piece of writing then, i am afraid, i am going to have to pull out my hair after a downing a fifth of scotch ........... i knew there was a reason why i never trusted people who drink chardonnay !

``On the table across pseudo-intellectual rhetoric slogans are tossed around the table like poker cards by Saville-Row sartorial spastics. ``........... no........i don`t have the energy to disect this piece of doodoo !

Re: # 55

Hamid M

To my delight i see you are one of my favourite fans !! I just logged on and was smitten by your shower of praises. So many of them in abundance !

Now ofcourse since I have to go out time does not license me to reciprocate this utter kindness.

Be sure when I log on next time

I will reward you with a present you least expected monsieur.

A present you have never ever received before.

Though please be waiting.

For it will shock even your beloved self.

Ciao.

hamidm bro:

cc is very cute and very chalaakoo;)

Just For Your Info only

rgds

t

I could not swallow any of this head-spinning tripe.

Re: # 57

t,

......... but what is the excuse for being dysfunctional when you are living under big ben ?

Re: # 58

urstruly,

......... finally, we agree on something !.....

hamidm:

i don`t know!

laikin aik baat hay bhai...afflictions of the mind recognises no agreed or disputed boundaries...translation: genius can be born anywhere

Re: # 61

t,

the last time i saw a genius he was sitting naked under a pipal tree hurling obscenities at the people passing by ! ......... potoharis, being rather simple folk, bowed in reverence and whispered, `` ay allah da banda poncheya hoya `` ......... i guess he had reached some kind of zenith ! .......... sometimes i feel that way after a few manhattans !

#59:

hamidm that dysfunctional in part I was out on the nadeem paracha`s sultan mints ... sorry for the confusion

digression:

chowk is not short of genuises ...or would that be genii?... pick any stone ..er thread here...and you will find the original jay, arjun, echo or their wannabee clones all reaffirming that the genius recognises no agreed or disputed boundary

t

Re: # 63

t,

........ i guess i am in good company !!! .....

....... i kind of liked sultan mints but, to tell you the truth, i think paracha should lay off the peyote - i guess nobody told him that we are in the twenty first century and psychaedlic drugs are out of fashion ........

# 55 Ozer

`` Be sure when I log on next time

I will reward you with a present you least expected monsieur.

A present you have never ever received before. ````

Please do that in a language us mere mortals can understand!

hamidm2

I’ve been a member of this community for over 2 ½ years but interact rarely, precisely because of such unsolicited, petulant and distasteful vitriol as yours. The callous cynicism, opportunistic irreverence and impertinence you employ needs to be addressed for what it is.

Your addition to the interacts on this piece, if not the forum generally is wholly unwelcome to all apart from those that share your lack of courtesy and consideration for other members.

At no time have you demonstrated the slightest desire to understand or maturely debate this piece; the remarkable hostility in your interacts ill befits a forum such as this. The whole point of Chowk is to encourage debate and discussion not to flex metaphoric or literally muscle to insult.

You mentioned in one of your innumerable replies “gonads”. Clearly someone is missing a pair. Or acting strangely feline and demarcating territory. I must admit though that for all your posturing I did agree with one thing : “maybe i am a fool who wasted all those years in college ...” And all the years since….

Oh and since you threatened to boycott Chowk for 48 hours if the piece wasn’t removed from the front page, show some spine and remove your rancid odour from our presence please!

sul: hamidm has a right to express his views regarding this piece, and he has done so in a light-hearted manner. there is nothing rancid in what he has written. i think you need to lighten up a bit yourself.

Ozer,

What a haunting piece....what must have been your muse....

It made an impression akin to the first time I read Ginsberg`s ``Howl``.

I know you mentioned a dislike for pigeon-holing and I certainly don`t mean to travel that route but I immediately classified what you had written as a poem written in free verse. Perhaps I have erred as people have referred to it as an article of sorts.

Re # 67.

tahmed32.

How you can suggest that savage unwarranted personal attacks are light hearted is beyond me. hamidm2`s comments weren`t banter, they were simply rude. I`m all for expressing views, but hamidm2 was deliberately offensive.

But we all digress. Lets talk about the article or generally welcome a new author to our midst rather than become embroiled in such pedantry.

Re: # 24

moazammudasar,

1. Terrorism: loonie Bins hiding in caves. Using unnessesary violence/force against innocent civilians to further their own cause. Any network/organization seeking to use pressure-tactics to justify ideological/religious/political ends.

Then what are IRA, Juan Carlos, ETA/Basque, D Koresh, Tim McVeigh?

While you contend that any ``network/organization`` that uses ``pressure tactics to justify ideological/religious/political ends`` is terrorist, do you think Governments - namely US, European, Eastern European, Australian, Pakistani, Indian, Eastern Pacific countries, MENA, or any - have the right to do the same without being labelled terrorists? If not, then why does it happen there and what should be done about it? If yes, then why shouldn`t they be labelled as terrorists too?

2. Madrassas: breeding grounds for terrorists.

Do the operatives of the aforementioned groups and the soldiers of the aforementioned governments go to madrassas too? Then how could they be so unbalanced and callous in use of force?

3. Modernity: globalisation. capitalism. internet age.

Dear boy, do you even comprehend the terms you`ve listed? lol

Please don`t answer with questions.....let`s see how well you can educate us.

tahmed, hamidm2, HP, temporal... congratulations on addition to your dwindling family of headline-fed and buzz-word fueled ignoramuses.

Another case of ``tankiyan bhernay lageen to tootiyan behnay lageen`` lol :-)~~

sul: Indeed it is a pleasure to have new authors - and posters - on chowk. But what exactly is this pedentry that you refer to? Would you be so good as to cut and paste what you are referring to??

miriamk ???

........ just how many identities does this guy have ?............ reminds me of mystique in the x-men ...............

``It made an impression akin to the first time I read Ginsberg`s ``Howl``.````


............ jesusfchrist !

Re: # 66

sul (?),

``Your addition to the interacts on this piece, if not the forum generally is wholly unwelcome to all apart from those that share your lack of courtesy and consideration for other members. ``

......... i am deeply hurt, but i have a job to do - someone has to stand up to charlatans, pretenders, con men, fakers, imposters, rogues and knaves or else we will be buried in flimflam...........

........... i think ozer`s fan club needs to get together (and that should be easy ! ) and do serous some soul searching .............

......... now, i have to go back on strike since the chowk staff is not paying any attention to my very reasonable request .......

#70:

since you are active here...a reminder for you from the other board:

#47 by temporal on May 13, 2005 3:53pm PT
#44:

...now, you answer the query that hamid mir asked osama ...with the ayah number, please...then we will talk more....

Ozer - I am one of those people who liked your effort. Isnt it brave of me to turn up? :) I thought it had great rhythm, flowed well and had a certain novelty to it - I dont see too many prose poems on this site. Your appetite for language was also very apparent and you definitely have a voice.

However, I also feel there is some truth in what Hamidm is pointing out in his own inimitable style: you depend too much on metaphor. Some of it is well done, but there are spaces where you appear to have fallen in love with the voice or caught up too much in the excitement of the work to pay attention.

As for Beej`s [and Hamidm`s] observations - mea culpa, I felt that too. When five or six people show up on the same day and use the same style and same voice to express their extremely similar points on the same article, you can only murmur ``coincidence`` thus far and no further. If I am wrong, I beg your pardon.

Hope to see more of you however - you certainly exercise an enlivening effect!

This article and the responses to it remind me of the legendary writer of chowk unplugged ``Salim Chauhan``

#75:

Amrita Only

lve

t

crows and hats .......

........okay, if someone can prove to me that ozer`s fan club is more than one person or, as temporal would have it, one person and a dog, then i will eat my hat ......... actually, since i don`t own a hat, i will go out, buy one and then eat it !!! ............. better yet, i will put a crow in the hat and eat it !

hamidm # 78

...no such luck!...

tho baskin-robbins can make a replica hat with chocolate-buttered-almond ice cream...it is kinda fragile and small...you will have to gulp it quickly...

..and god forbid...if such an occasion arrives...can i plead with you to spare the crow?...oos baicharay ka kya qusoor?

t

Re: # 72

hamidm.....

Ummm...no, I`m not Ozer`s alter ego; at least not the last time I checked. Just a lowly grad. student who needed a break studying from finals and via some uncanny yahoo labyrinth landed on Chowk.

I just read your threads regarding the piece....goodness those are some strong opinions. I`m afraid I don`t know enough about Chowk (i.e. whether Chowk has serious literary merit or if it`s simply an avenue for aspiring writers to share their work) to offer an opinion.

And regarding my Ginsberg comment I wasn`t comparing Ozer`s writing to ``Howl``. I would truly have to be benighted to do that. I just meant it elicited a similar feeling. The first time I read ``Howl`` I felt uneasy, disturbed, etc.

tahmed32

Re# 71

Pedantry: simply the needlessly personal and offensive name calling. I admit I took such umbrage I myself engaged in it somewhat.

amrita

Re# 75

Just to be clear. I have been a member for more than two years and am no one`s alter ego. I`ve enough personalities of my own to keep me busy.


hamidm2

Re# 73

Pls refer to above answer to Amrita. I can understand that Ozer`s style is not for everyone, but if you had expressed yourself with the tact and grace that Amrita did, your point would have reverberated. ``Lets all try and get along``.

sul #811 :Pedentry means ``needlessly personal and offensive name calling``!!!?? puhleeeese!! dont use words unless you know what they mean - go look up the dictionary and dont dare write another post on chowk until you have done that.

Jesus S. Christ!! I new we pakistanis were bloody incompetent. but this is disgusting!!

.......... i thought i`d summarize this gibberish for the chowk readership; here is my humble effort :

Big Ben
Usher
MartiKa
Nokia
Louis Vuitton
Enzo
Martini
Penn
Del Toro
Tsunami
Purple Haze
Blair
Ashes
Saville-Row
Bush
Mush
Mugabe
Oscar Wilde
Sloanie
Bruce Almighty
Chardonnay
Polaroid
Davidoffs
Houdini
Virginia Woolf

............ wow !!!......... this guy knows a lot of bovine excrement !

Re: # 83

hamidm,

I say this with all due respect but that is grossly unfair. You can perform that little trick with innumerable pieces of writing; prose or poetry. Especially so with poetry of the post-modern genre which is characterized by free verse.

I can certainly appreciate the spirit of your criticism but your method leaves something to be desired.

If you find this particular contribution so loathsome, instead of harassing the man why don`t you take the dignified route and write a pithy critique and post it on Chowk. Indeed the values the Arts and Letters inculcate demand nothing less. I for one would be interested in reading what you had to say given you presented it in a collected and rational manner.

Re: # 84

miriamk.

......... i wouldn`t know ``poetry of the post-modern genre`` if it fell on my head, but i do know bs when i step into it - there is a lot of that stuff out there being flung around by all sorts of dubious characters ..........

........... look, i don`t claim any expertise in ``the values of arts and letters`` since i studied more mundane, but less obtuse and more useful, stuff like calculus and hydraulics, but it really bothers me when some arted and lettered fella tries to take us poor folks for a ride - i am fighting for the rights of the common man ........ i have a suspicion - that is yet to be proven - that there are a lot of people who are getting away with bloody murder in the name of art ......... take that fellow picasso - a talented artist, no doubt - but i am sure that he was laughing all the way to the bank when he drew two lines that vaguely resembled a woman`s butt, craftily titled it femme, and everyone applauded ........ who says a fool is not born every minute of the day ! .........

........... i don`t find this particular ``contribution`` particularly loathsome, but it is a prime example of somone with delusions of literary grandeur trying to get away with it yet again .......... it is the sheer dishonesty of this...... this ..... evil enterprise that bothers the crap out of me !............ it is no different than slick corporate types rigging the markets to bilk the small investors, or con artists preying on eighty year old grandmothers .........

........... i like the thought of being a crusader for the truth for a few days until i can find a new cause .........



p.s. i just ordered harry frankfurt`s ``On Bullshit`` after seeing him on sixty minutes earlier this evening - it seems i am not the only one who thinks there is too much bs in the world ......... and all of us continue to contribute to this heap of offal ...........

Re: # 74

temporarily temporal...

read the response on the same board! Feel free to cut/paste across the boards, but do it with both of our posts if you have a shred fairness (although I doubt it).

Re: # 82

You decontextualise everything to suit your narrow minded intent! I was not explaining the meaning of pedantry (and try and spell it properly!) to tahmed32, but merely refering to examples of it: your crass responses.

You really have a lot of issues. Stop overcompensating and villifying. It makes you look the smaller man. You did not respond to the substance of my last post to you, but tried to get in a cheap shot. Seriously, you`re like an Iraqi scud: noisy and off target.

So here`s me giving you a clue. Get a dictionary. Look up the world personable. Then look up the word magnanimous. Understand them. Embrace their meaning. Only then come back to chowk. Oh and read this too: http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00005040&channel=chaathouse

Re: # 85

hamidm...you and I have more in common in than either of probably thought we did. :-)~~

Phir bhi...is ko bachcha samajh k chhor do yaar. ab to becharay ki bolti bund hai.....lol

sul #87 You were accusing hamidm of pedantry, which was surprising, so I asked you to look up the meaning of the word and provide an example. You surprised me even more by coming back with a totally incorrect definition, which clearly shows you did not know the meaning of the word you used. My advice to you was an honest one: dont use words unless you know what they mean.

You come back with another big word, saying I ``decontextualise`` everything, meaning that in the context you used the word ``pedantry`` it was OK!! Rest assured it was not - you simply used a big word without knowing what it meant.

At this point I give up. Have a nice day.

Re: # 89

No. You asked me for examples. I did not cut and paste but gave you a very simple reference. I did not give you the definition because I sought not to insult your intelligence.

And please try and follow the thread of the post. I did not accuse you of decontextualising anything. I was responding to hamidm2. You can carry on accusing me of not knowing what words mean. It may be true for others, but it does not apply to me.

I`m not on this website to debate the semantics and nuances of words, nor am I here to prove the range of vocabulary. So whilst I appreciate yor advice, I`m sorry to say you missed the mark. That said however, I revert to my former statement and say that this aimless quibbling of whose danda (Read: vocabulary) is bigger is the prime example of engaging in pedantry.

No matter how you or others respond, I have more important matters to which I must attend. This therefore is my last post on who said what. If anyone wants to debate the peice, and can do so without being vindictive or personal, I`ll be happy to respond. Otherwise, for those who think I use words that are too big for me to grasp: if it makes you sleep better at night, let that thought entertain you.

Good Day!

Dear Dear me...what a set of pedantic replies to a completely incomprehensible article. Me thinks all here, including the author can come up with better ways of expressing their creativity on Chowk.

from dictionary.com:

ped·ant·ry ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pdn-tr)
n. pl. ped·ant·ries
Pedantic attention to detail or rules.
An instance of pedantic behavior.
The habit of mind or manner characteristic of a pedant.

pedantry

n : a ostentatious and inappropriate display of learning

from sul at chowk.com:

Pedantry: simply the needlessly personal and offensive name calling. . .

--
close enough or no cigar? offensive name calling an inappropriate display of learning? or this word used in the context it was an inappropriate display of learning? greater things heaven and earth that are dreamt of in whose philosophy horatio?! (yes, i do know what the correct verse is, thank you)

Miriam K

Very apt of you to bring up Allen Ginsberg’s “howl”. A truly inspirational poet. The poem`s plummeting hallucinatory style and the subsequent obscenity trial which it provoked, not too dissimilar to the venom being lashed out on this forum ! was an eye-opener to many a literary critic.

I am enamored by Ginsberg’s “howl” and its ability to communicate scenes, characters and situations drawn from his own experience, and the community of poets, artists, political radicals, drug addicts and psychiatric patients which he encountered.

Miriam “Howl” goes on to lament at the state of America, named as `Moloch` in the poem. In my soul there lurks a similar lament, especially for South Asia, which I see as such a cradle for potential and opportunity being misused, misplaced and misguided.

Ginsberg was inspired to write Part II of “Howl” when he saw a hotel as a monster he named Moloch during a “peyote” vision, and much of the section itself was written while under that same “peyote” influence.

Part III of howl is directly addressed to Carl Solomon, whom Ginsberg met whilst both were patients at Rockland, a psychiatric hospital, and relates shared experiences, hopes and fears.

Despite the ferocity of vindictive social critique against him, Miriam and fellow Chowkies witness the piercing depth of Ginsberg. When reading these parodied debut lines of Ginsberg I was merely in awe:

``I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the streets at dawn looking for an angry fix (Hamid M perhaps LOL !!!)

Ginsberg continues:
``……who lounged hungry and lonesome through Houston seeking jazz or sex or soup, and followed the brilliant Spaniard to converse about America and Eternity, a hopeless task, and so took ship to Africa …(Miriam you can tell that Ginsberg, has widely trotted the globe)

``who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space through images juxtaposed, and trapped the archangel of the soul between 2 visual images and joined the elemental verbs and set the noun and dash of consciousness together jumping with sensations of Pater Omnipotens Aeterna Deus `` (note a gleaming spirituality in Ginsberg`s work).

Miriam what inspires you most about Ginsberg ?

Re: # 84

Miriam K

Very apt of you to bring up Allen Ginsberg’s “howl”. A truly inspirational poet. The poem`s plummeting hallucinatory style and the subsequent obscenity trial which it provoked, not too dissimilar to the venom being lashed out on this forum ! was an eye-opener to many a literary critic.

I am enamored by Ginsberg’s “howl” and its ability to communicate scenes, characters and situations drawn from his own experience, and the community of poets, artists, political radicals, drug addicts and psychiatric patients which he encountered.

Miriam “Howl” goes on to lament at the state of America, named as `Moloch` in the poem. In my soul there lurks a similar lament, especially for South Asia, which I see as such a cradle for potential and opportunity being misused, misplaced and misguided.

Ginsberg was inspired to write Part II of “Howl” when he saw a hotel as a monster he named Moloch during a “peyote” vision, and much of the section itself was written while under that same “peyote” influence.

Part III of howl is directly addressed to Carl Solomon, whom Ginsberg met whilst both were patients at Rockland, a psychiatric hospital, and relates shared experiences, hopes and fears.

Despite the ferocity of vindictive social critique against him, Miriam and fellow Chowkies witness the piercing depth of Ginsberg. When reading these parodied debut lines of Ginsberg I was merely in awe:

``I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging themselves through the streets at dawn looking for an angry fix (Hamid M perhaps LOL !!!)

Ginsberg continues:
``……who lounged hungry and lonesome through Houston seeking jazz or sex or soup, and followed the brilliant Spaniard to converse about America and Eternity, a hopeless task, and so took ship to Africa …(Miriam you can tell that Ginsberg, has widely trotted the globe)

``who dreamt and made incarnate gaps in Time & Space through images juxtaposed, and trapped the archangel of the soul between 2 visual images and joined the elemental verbs and set the noun and dash of consciousness together jumping with sensations of Pater Omnipotens Aeterna Deus `` (note a gleaming spirituality in Ginsberg`s work).

Miriam what inspires you most about Ginsberg ?

Re: # 75

Amrita

You type:

``I am one of those people who liked your effort. Isnt it brave of me to turn up? :)

Given the ``toothless`` predators here you are a valiant crusader indeed LOL !!

``I thought it had great rhythm, flowed well and had a certain novelty to it - I dont see too many prose poems on this site. Your appetite for language was also very apparent and you definitely have a voice``.

Amrita, what enamours me about prose is that it allows freelance kindred spirits to unleash, uninhibited, uncensored deep-seated emotions/anger/passion/apathy through the prism of a lingua franca: I do concur with you that language often devours us in our own trappings yet it is all we can rely on. If only I could truly pin down into words what ravages my heart....

You observe `` you depend too much on metaphor. Some of it is well done, but there are spaces where you appear to have fallen in love with the voice or caught up too much in the excitement of the work to pay attention``

Amrita, if you get the chance look up Umberto Eco`s ``The Name of the Rose`` and how Eco depicts language as a trapping and cultural confinement.

Gracias for your post. At least your observations/critique were of an enlighteningly well educated genre.

Re: # 92

Saj,

This piece may come across as incomprehensible to yourself for it is steeped in metaphor. It is just my personal mode of committing thoughts to electronic format. It can be interpreted from various angles.

A most commonly held belief is that ``dusk`` is
a lament vis-a-vis postmodern society and all its underpinnings. An emblem of angst/depression weaved into a contradiction-laden world.

Basically Im venting off my spleen with regards to urban living, its sheepish mandates and its ill-begotten actors.

sigh .... here we go again - yet more silly attempts at obfuscation :

``This piece may come across as incomprehensible to yourself for it is steeped in metaphor`` ........ if nobody can decipher the metaphors then obviously they are garbage ...

``It can be interpreted from various angles`` ........ so, like the koran, this..... this ....is a divine masterpiece ? ......... likhay khuda, parhay musa (or is it the other way around)

``A most commonly held belief is that ``dusk`` is a lament vis-a-vis postmodern society and all its underpinnings``............. who are the people that hold this ``belief`` and why are they keeping it a secret ?

``Basically Im venting off my spleen with regards to urban living, its sheepish mandates and its ill-begotten actors. ``.......... now this is a doozy ! what the heck is a ``sheepish`` mandate and how are actors ``ill-begotten`` ........... just because you know a word doesn`t mean you have to use it wheter it means anything or not ...........

......... look, ozer mian, most of us went to tota-maina schools (even the resident jihadis ike echo, ntsyed and urstruly) so you should desist from trying to impress us with highfalutin language ...........

..... i am sorry if i sound mean-spirited ..........

poor Ozer thinks its safe to come out. Sticks his head out. And hamidm bops him on the head. One of Ozer`s incarnations sticks his head out to defend Ozer, and hamidm bops him on the head as well. Ozer waits a day or so, then sticks his head out hoping hamid is gone. And hamidm bops him again.

This board has become a califragilisticexpialidocious contextualized pedantricide. I think there is some international law against pedantricide.

Re: # 97

Hamid M

you state:

``i am sorry if i sound mean-spirited ``..........

Hamid I welcome constructive positive criticism, or even alternative suggestions/ideas/views from yourself or any other Chowkis. I would much rather you critique the content of the article from a literary/artistic/intellectual standpoint rather than turning this into a visceral vendetta.

I have no