Farzana Versey May 5, 2005
#17 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on May 5, 2005 9:09:58 pm
Farzana
Very complex issues.
Wife or husband is a society`s, family`s, religion`s requirement for pro-creation and stability of society. If there is love & satisfaction of carnal instincts in it, it is a bonus.
But non-fidality & `other` in life is definitely a blissful experience. Like the stolen oranges.
Our Principal, Mr. Catchpole, always exhorted us with a smile `do anything but do not get caught`. He never spared anyone who was caught.
nhk
#18 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on May 6, 2005 2:29:49 am
Dear Farzana,
Thanks for the article.
You`d enjoy reading A Natural History of Love by Diane Ackerman.
In it she maps all kinds of love, and the economic, biological and evolutionary processes associated with love. She treats love like an industry and it is a fascinating, paradigm shifting read, where she exposes a highly personal quest to be nothing but a predetermined part of an evolving tool of survival.
Adultery was not necessarily an unacceptable thing in all cultures. Various tribes, even today in the Amazon don`t believe promiscuous nature of the women to be of any moral degradation. Likewise, all patriarchal societies have institutionalized adultery though polygamy, and religion has played its part too, more visible in the Islamic Shii tradition of Mutaa, or temporary marriage. In modern terms adultery for women is the most empowering way (in a secretive way) to lash out at the patriarchal systems, or so women think, little do they know, that they are strengthening it, and weakling the alliance of women.
Contract or no contract, there must be an independent standard of determining truth, regardless of consensus. The moment couples dictate moral behavior from consensus, it’s a sin in itself. A wife living with a man she cannot get herself to love, is harming her soul, a man not content with his marriage and looks for ways outside to ``find a spark`` is unspining his wheel, making his life harder. His esteem in his own eyes becomes questionable.
Morality comes in where you have enough forthrightness to reflect your temporal contracts with what your mind and heart believe. If you aren`t content, leave a marriage.
Because people don`t bring harmony between their body and minds, social contracts reflect that disharmony. Marriage is now a piece of worthless legislation. What counts is a meeting of the minds, an acceptance of two mature adults who want to meet higher goals together, its about emotional support, not a living arrangement. There are so many marriages today that don`t reflect the abuse that goes on in marriages, so then what good is the legal document? Personally the verbal understanding counts more than the paper contract. That, once broken is already makes any prior understanding null and void.
Love is about the future of your legacy though gene poll, about divine goals, and it really cannot be, for all practical purposes, shared between more than two people at one given time, within one one verbal contract`s time frame. So, Farzana the statement, ``Most people use the morality bait. There are more moral arguments against adultery than practical ones,`` would only be accurate if there was no patriarchy and power structures in place, if there was no withheld information, and no emotional infidelity.
Aisha Sarwari
Thanks for the article.
You`d enjoy reading A Natural History of Love by Diane Ackerman.
In it she maps all kinds of love, and the economic, biological and evolutionary processes associated with love. She treats love like an industry and it is a fascinating, paradigm shifting read, where she exposes a highly personal quest to be nothing but a predetermined part of an evolving tool of survival.
Adultery was not necessarily an unacceptable thing in all cultures. Various tribes, even today in the Amazon don`t believe promiscuous nature of the women to be of any moral degradation. Likewise, all patriarchal societies have institutionalized adultery though polygamy, and religion has played its part too, more visible in the Islamic Shii tradition of Mutaa, or temporary marriage. In modern terms adultery for women is the most empowering way (in a secretive way) to lash out at the patriarchal systems, or so women think, little do they know, that they are strengthening it, and weakling the alliance of women.
Contract or no contract, there must be an independent standard of determining truth, regardless of consensus. The moment couples dictate moral behavior from consensus, it’s a sin in itself. A wife living with a man she cannot get herself to love, is harming her soul, a man not content with his marriage and looks for ways outside to ``find a spark`` is unspining his wheel, making his life harder. His esteem in his own eyes becomes questionable.
Morality comes in where you have enough forthrightness to reflect your temporal contracts with what your mind and heart believe. If you aren`t content, leave a marriage.
Because people don`t bring harmony between their body and minds, social contracts reflect that disharmony. Marriage is now a piece of worthless legislation. What counts is a meeting of the minds, an acceptance of two mature adults who want to meet higher goals together, its about emotional support, not a living arrangement. There are so many marriages today that don`t reflect the abuse that goes on in marriages, so then what good is the legal document? Personally the verbal understanding counts more than the paper contract. That, once broken is already makes any prior understanding null and void.
Love is about the future of your legacy though gene poll, about divine goals, and it really cannot be, for all practical purposes, shared between more than two people at one given time, within one one verbal contract`s time frame. So, Farzana the statement, ``Most people use the morality bait. There are more moral arguments against adultery than practical ones,`` would only be accurate if there was no patriarchy and power structures in place, if there was no withheld information, and no emotional infidelity.
Aisha Sarwari
#19 Posted by drlokraj on May 6, 2005 4:04:47 am
It is a difficult and complex question with no straight forward answers.Being in the field of mental health since17 years,I have seen many``cases``(if you may call them so),who have admitted having ``done`` or at least having thought of doing it,but there are very very few who try to defend it.This is what adds to the ambiguity surrounding this subject.
People have tried to understand this behaviour from all possible angles including developmental,psycho-sexual,psycho-social,experiencial,religeous,existential etc.,but every theory falls short somewhere as there are different factors or combination of factors involved in each case.Sex,contrary to the common belief,for sure, is not the exclusive factor.In fact in some cases,sex doesn`t even figure in the relationship.
People have tried to understand this behaviour from all possible angles including developmental,psycho-sexual,psycho-social,experiencial,religeous,existential etc.,but every theory falls short somewhere as there are different factors or combination of factors involved in each case.Sex,contrary to the common belief,for sure, is not the exclusive factor.In fact in some cases,sex doesn`t even figure in the relationship.
#20 Posted by Naqshbandi on May 6, 2005 4:20:32 am
this might be controversial but i don`t think that it is in the male nature to be monogamous--islam solves this problem by allowing polygamy and concubinage....though the latter is not practised in the modern world it was a part and parcel of most world cultures until the 20th century; in practise it still exists in the form of having many mistresses but without the responsibilities...
a great article as always farzana...
a great article as always farzana...
#21 Posted by amansandhu on May 6, 2005 6:50:37 am
talking of adultery reminds me of cricketeer Zaheer Abbass , he married Rita Luthra , now
Samina, from India , a much married woman. was Zaheer also married before. can pakistani chowkies shed any light on this.
Samina, from India , a much married woman. was Zaheer also married before. can pakistani chowkies shed any light on this.
#22 Posted by FarzanaVersey on May 6, 2005 7:03:04 am
A quick general note...
I was not too happy using the term `Other Woman/Man`, but this coinage has currency and acceptability. For the purpose of this piece, (and often in life outside the social barricades) the person is in fact The One, not The Other.
I am aware that it is a complex subject, despite its prevalence in almost all societies. In fact, I was asked by a couple of people that it seemed I was not quite myself and being a bit soft here. For me, that was the purpose -- the voice of confusion is the woman who is afraid only because she, a married person, is desired AND loved by a man other than her husband. There are questions, and many of you have responded with those very aspects...
- Adultery is not only about sex; often there could be very little of it.
- Male polygamy is seen as acceptable, but what about a woman`s needs that may be more than carnal?
- If the married person is `caught`, should s/he deny the relationship? Would this not belittle the woman/man you are with?
- Is adultery the first or last resport? It isn`t a resort; it could well be a continuum to the seeking of what one considers a perfect companionship, which is anyway a chimera.
- Would `ventilation` in a marriage prevent adultery? I can hold forth on this, but it would defeat the purpose of the article and an important reality of life. Suffice to say, all relationships need breathing space, but all humans also want to possess. In adulterous relationships too there is possessiveness, they are not perfect in any manner.
- Why is it okay to fantasise about Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt when you are with your partner, but a sin when you are with a real person?
- Why is it that people get uncomfortable talking about it, and contemporary feminism in our subcontinent gives it shoirt shrift?
- The point is: are you willing to grant dignity to one who adds to your life, despite the moral baggage? If you can get into something, then why can you not stand by it?
Aisha: Great post and good to have a woman here! You talk about an idealised situation where there is no `moral infidelity`, which is really what I want heard.
Ozerkhalid: Gibran is wonderful...
Thanks for the engaging and honest posts...it is so easy for a subject like this to turn into a sleaze fest.
Regards,
Farzana
PS: In most marriages in India (rest of the subcon?) the wife toois the other woman to the man`s mother...
I was not too happy using the term `Other Woman/Man`, but this coinage has currency and acceptability. For the purpose of this piece, (and often in life outside the social barricades) the person is in fact The One, not The Other.
I am aware that it is a complex subject, despite its prevalence in almost all societies. In fact, I was asked by a couple of people that it seemed I was not quite myself and being a bit soft here. For me, that was the purpose -- the voice of confusion is the woman who is afraid only because she, a married person, is desired AND loved by a man other than her husband. There are questions, and many of you have responded with those very aspects...
- Adultery is not only about sex; often there could be very little of it.
- Male polygamy is seen as acceptable, but what about a woman`s needs that may be more than carnal?
- If the married person is `caught`, should s/he deny the relationship? Would this not belittle the woman/man you are with?
- Is adultery the first or last resport? It isn`t a resort; it could well be a continuum to the seeking of what one considers a perfect companionship, which is anyway a chimera.
- Would `ventilation` in a marriage prevent adultery? I can hold forth on this, but it would defeat the purpose of the article and an important reality of life. Suffice to say, all relationships need breathing space, but all humans also want to possess. In adulterous relationships too there is possessiveness, they are not perfect in any manner.
- Why is it okay to fantasise about Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt when you are with your partner, but a sin when you are with a real person?
- Why is it that people get uncomfortable talking about it, and contemporary feminism in our subcontinent gives it shoirt shrift?
- The point is: are you willing to grant dignity to one who adds to your life, despite the moral baggage? If you can get into something, then why can you not stand by it?
Aisha: Great post and good to have a woman here! You talk about an idealised situation where there is no `moral infidelity`, which is really what I want heard.
Ozerkhalid: Gibran is wonderful...
Thanks for the engaging and honest posts...it is so easy for a subject like this to turn into a sleaze fest.
Regards,
Farzana
PS: In most marriages in India (rest of the subcon?) the wife toois the other woman to the man`s mother...
#23 Posted by EinZeitgeist on May 6, 2005 7:59:19 am
One of the best discourses, I have read. Farzana Versey, my hats off to you, and a bow in respect of such a lucid, but potent article. One can only pray that these matters of reality may be taken in the spirit in which you have so beautifuuly brought out. What can, however, be done to resolve the issues with the confused moralists of our socities. As I was reading your article, I could quite vividly imagine what Lord Wolfenden would have gone through, while proposing opening up the British society in 1959. Not so much related to your theme but the issue of `sexuality` in its own context.
Keep it up Farzana, you are needed. You belong to that breed of individualists, who are a necessary componant, for a healthy debate, in pursuing a more tolerant, a more compassionate, a little more liberal social system, away from the claws of self imposed moralists.
What you have put in doesn`t just apply to a woman, but as you wrote wo/man eqwually.
Keep it up Farzana, you are needed. You belong to that breed of individualists, who are a necessary componant, for a healthy debate, in pursuing a more tolerant, a more compassionate, a little more liberal social system, away from the claws of self imposed moralists.
What you have put in doesn`t just apply to a woman, but as you wrote wo/man eqwually.
#24 Posted by sajal on May 6, 2005 8:05:16 am
Farzana,
good article.
Makes me wonder why adultery happens.
Unsatisfied emotional and physical needs or lack of understanding between a couple which makes a person find happiness elsewhere?.
I believe sex outside marriage is more difficult for women than men. For men it may be satisfaction of their carnal desires but for a woman it may be trying to find her self and her self worth by indulging in such a relationship. It is a complex issue which requires a deeper understanding of marital relations to understand adultery.
good article.
Makes me wonder why adultery happens.
Unsatisfied emotional and physical needs or lack of understanding between a couple which makes a person find happiness elsewhere?.
I believe sex outside marriage is more difficult for women than men. For men it may be satisfaction of their carnal desires but for a woman it may be trying to find her self and her self worth by indulging in such a relationship. It is a complex issue which requires a deeper understanding of marital relations to understand adultery.
#25 Posted by amrita on May 6, 2005 9:06:42 am
Farzana - ``There are more moral arguments against adultery than practical ones.`` true. especially when marriage is a business like affair entered into with a clear sense of things attained and things adjusted.
#26 Posted by drlokraj on May 6, 2005 9:29:42 am
From Psychiatric/Psychological perspective,persons with certain personality traits are more prone to become unfaithful e.g. people with antisocial traits have little respect for societal norms or ethics and they feel little or no guilt about breaking the norms and they have problems in other areas of life also.Others are those who are called ``unstable`` or ``borderline`` personalities,who start feeling bored very easily in any situation.Also they are very high on sensation seeking and keep experimenting with various things including drugs,extra-marital relations,risky activities etc.Third category is of Narsissistic personalities who live for only themselves and have no regards for others` needs and emotions.They can exploit any relation to suit their need of self agrandizement and bragging about their achievements.They use other people as tools.In all these categories,extra-marital relatios are usually short lasting and rarely have equal reciprocaton from both sides and sex is the major attraction.
Having said this,there are bilaterally reciprocated relations as well where unmet dependency needs are the main reason and sex does not play important part-the so called Plutonic relationships.
Having said this,there are bilaterally reciprocated relations as well where unmet dependency needs are the main reason and sex does not play important part-the so called Plutonic relationships.
#27 Posted by HP on May 6, 2005 9:57:35 am
First, I think adultery is a strong word with religious connotations. Second, this is a not a society, culture or even a home breaking issue. Even in the Western society where cheating and two timing are now common phrases, a miniscule portion of the society is impacted by it. My suspicion is that in the US, it is more of an ego or a slight issue than a home breaking or relationship breaking issue. At least the West has moved beyond the garbage notions of honor, Izzat and Ghairat of the tribal or feudal societies of the subcontinent.
In the ancient societies, the “Evil” was created for people to understand the “Good”. God has Satan good behavior has bad behavior. Every prophet (good) had an enemy (Evil).Every good king had a bad king. The tradition followed in the literature and the concept of good and evil was promoted. The ignoramus whole-heartedly bought the whole enchilada. The Shakespeares of every literature excelled in creating good and evil character and writers from the feudal and tribal eras confirmed that the adultery is an evil concept. (In the ancient societies, women were actually considered evil or why would men place so many restrictions on them?)
I don’t know when the institution of Marriage or monogamous relationship took hold of the society but adultery became the evil part of the good deed (marriage).
Animals have no concept of monogamous relations and they don’t raise kids together. Human are just an extension of animals. So the concept of monogamy is forced on human. If marriage is natural then adultery is also natural.
With that preamble, adultery had taken an entirely new meaning in the 20th century. Before that, creating secure environment for the fair sex was the fundamental objective of the society. Feudal and tribal societies still put a premium on that. In Pakistan the progress of the country was halted to protect “Chadar and Chardewari”( what non sense). In the name of protection, tribal societies invented Pardeh, Hijab, dupatta, full sleeves and 20 layers of clothing. The husbands were even placing objects physically to save women from the evil designs of the fellow men.
With this protection came ignorance. Women were not able to see outside, men found enjoyment in unprotected women.
Too many details in the adultery stuff but in nutshell, those who cannot provide protection don’t delve too much on adultery. A poor men or women’s concept of adultery is entirely different from the protectors and the protected of the better off classes. A poor person’s wife is only economically protected-that too barely. She lives with her husband’s adultery. A poor man has more tolerance for his wife’s adultery than a middleclass person who provides more protection.
In the West, where both men and women have moved beyond protection, cheating and two timings are just some issues to deal with in a relationship. If you feel strongly, end the relationship or you get back. Those who do need protection live with it like their counterparts in the Subcontinent.
It will take a long time for the newly liberated city dwelling subcontinent women to understand that they can get back if they can live without protection.
Personally, I think Sex is just an emotion. Some control their emotions well and some don’t. People just have to understand it as a human emotion like crying, laughing, and fighting etc. You cry, laugh and fight with several people. Why can’t you have sex with several people?
#28 Posted by sattar2 on May 6, 2005 12:12:31 pm
Naqsh (#20),
I am all for concubines ... do you have a sister who might be interested ...?
... you could argue on basis of a technicality that sattar is really not a muslim ... but then you must admit that your local imam is. So what’s the answer?
Heck, I used to be crazy about the concept of weekend muttah … but you have one-upped it by this concubine thing … gotta love Islam. Let me ask then … does paying a prostitute count as zakaat?
#29 Posted by anil on May 6, 2005 7:20:24 pm
Dear Farzana:
I think you just liked the name ``adultry anonymous`` and just named it. BTW, is this how you run your personal life too? You don`t need to answer the last question.
Anil
I think you just liked the name ``adultry anonymous`` and just named it. BTW, is this how you run your personal life too? You don`t need to answer the last question.
Anil
#30 Posted by amit on May 6, 2005 11:25:41 pm
Ferzana,
Last year one of my desi friends got divorced due to adultery. He was married to a wonderful woman and had a 4 year old daughter. He started having an affair with a gori girl at work and eventually moved in with her after abandoning his family. I could observe first hand the incredible pain inflicted on his family. His wife was almost suicidal and went into a deep depression. Her parents had to come over from India to support her emotionally. The impact on the kid was even worse. She became totally quiet and withdrawn. Basically the lives of 2 people were almost completely ruined.
You know what his wife told us? She said that if he had died in a car accident or from a disease or even just divorced her due to some incompatibility, it would not have been as painful as being betrayed and abandoned for another woman. Adultery has devastating effects. Let us not try to sugercoat this ugly aspect of human behavior.
The fact of the matter is that marriage is hard work, no matter who you are married to. Even the most lovey-dovey couples fight and get bitter at each other. In a marriage, you can only get back proportional to what you put in. If you take the effort to be loving and caring, and bringing in romantic sizzle in your marriage, there is a good chance that you will get some of that in return. If you make no effort and imagine that things will happen by themselves, then your marriage will go downhill.
As far as the other party is concerned, there is alway temptation in this world. But life is all about making choices and paying the price. For example, my 5 year old son is the apple of my eye. I can never imagine doing something to lose him. So, I take deliberate care not to let any situation get out of hand. I refuse to have one on one lunch with female coworkers. I will alwys invite someone else to come with us. When I travel with mixed company, I try not to drink the previous evening, etc.
Last year one of my desi friends got divorced due to adultery. He was married to a wonderful woman and had a 4 year old daughter. He started having an affair with a gori girl at work and eventually moved in with her after abandoning his family. I could observe first hand the incredible pain inflicted on his family. His wife was almost suicidal and went into a deep depression. Her parents had to come over from India to support her emotionally. The impact on the kid was even worse. She became totally quiet and withdrawn. Basically the lives of 2 people were almost completely ruined.
You know what his wife told us? She said that if he had died in a car accident or from a disease or even just divorced her due to some incompatibility, it would not have been as painful as being betrayed and abandoned for another woman. Adultery has devastating effects. Let us not try to sugercoat this ugly aspect of human behavior.
The fact of the matter is that marriage is hard work, no matter who you are married to. Even the most lovey-dovey couples fight and get bitter at each other. In a marriage, you can only get back proportional to what you put in. If you take the effort to be loving and caring, and bringing in romantic sizzle in your marriage, there is a good chance that you will get some of that in return. If you make no effort and imagine that things will happen by themselves, then your marriage will go downhill.
As far as the other party is concerned, there is alway temptation in this world. But life is all about making choices and paying the price. For example, my 5 year old son is the apple of my eye. I can never imagine doing something to lose him. So, I take deliberate care not to let any situation get out of hand. I refuse to have one on one lunch with female coworkers. I will alwys invite someone else to come with us. When I travel with mixed company, I try not to drink the previous evening, etc.
#31 Posted by drlokraj on May 7, 2005 2:00:02 am
Children are undoubtedly the worst sufferers of their parents` adultery which leads to broken homes.Maximum patients of serious psychiatric illnesses, drug/alcohol dependence
and deliberate self harm come from broken families.
and deliberate self harm come from broken families.
#32 Posted by dost_mittar on May 7, 2005 4:31:36 am
Dear Farzana:
It all depends upon what value system one follows. Let me explain:
There is the system which places a higher value on collective good over individual rights - the collective could be a biradari/jirga, ethnicity (e.g., quebecois, maratha), state or a supranational entity, such as ummah.
The second system is one that puts family above an individual and society; this is the system prevalent in most of Asia, including India and Pakistan. At its best, you see this system at work in Bollywood where brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers are competing to sacrifice themselves for others; at its worst one sees it in people killing their own to protect the family honour.
The third system is the Anglo-Saxon system where it is the individual uber alles. Here, all that counts is I, me and mine and everything else is secondary. This system seems to be the model now for the Indian Gen-Xs as well.
What you say in this article is valid only if you believe in this third model.
It all depends upon what value system one follows. Let me explain:
There is the system which places a higher value on collective good over individual rights - the collective could be a biradari/jirga, ethnicity (e.g., quebecois, maratha), state or a supranational entity, such as ummah.
The second system is one that puts family above an individual and society; this is the system prevalent in most of Asia, including India and Pakistan. At its best, you see this system at work in Bollywood where brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers are competing to sacrifice themselves for others; at its worst one sees it in people killing their own to protect the family honour.
The third system is the Anglo-Saxon system where it is the individual uber alles. Here, all that counts is I, me and mine and everything else is secondary. This system seems to be the model now for the Indian Gen-Xs as well.
What you say in this article is valid only if you believe in this third model.
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