Adultery Anonymous

Farzana,

I understand if someone is unhappy in a marriage or has drifted apart and wants to get divorced. However, bringing a third party in a marriage and then using it as an excuse to leave the marriage is not right. It inflicts needless pain on your partner and wreaks havoc on kids. I dont think that is justified under any circumstances because it is a cruel and selfish act. Also, it is hard on the third party as well, who has to be the outsider villain/villainess wrecking someone`s family. If you do not like your marriage, leave it and then get into new relationships.

amit:1
amit you seem to be the tahmad equivalent on the hindian side.

Have you ever considered that the `` relationship`` could be the cause as well as the effect?
It could be the trigger as well as the quarry?

As I said you are really a very nice, clean and simple person--like our own boyscout tahmad (stuck-at)32.

As if even little matters are within human control & grasp--and then people still deny existence of a Higher Power.

P.S:They perhaps do it, now that they have `education`, simply to prove the theory of evolution.

Amit,
An extra-marital relationship often just happens, it is not planned. Also sometimes another relationship brings one to get perspective on the failure of his/her marraige. Things are not always black and white, and don`t look at everything from a right/wrong point of view.

``The other Woman is a floozy. The other Man is a slimeball.``

...Were you looking at the mirror when you came up with or copied this line?.The `other` could be your mirror image??.NO?.I think it`s quite apt.


sincerely,

cayenne

[...Were you looking at the mirror when you came up with or copied this line?.The `other` could be your mirror image??.NO?.I think it`s quite apt.] - cayenne.

... do you know her?...

Re: # 5


I stay up late to read your ``india trip`` i-logs.I don`t see one today!!.Will we be lucky tomorrow??.Reading this article and many on this site is like enduring the cabaret in Pondicherry last weekend, named ``Le Cabaret``.Thank God there was plenty of booze.That`s why i find your i-log so refreshing and unique.If this much of ``kissing-up`` doesn`t induce you to refresh your memory and write , i don`t know what will.

Adultery is only morally reprehensible, otherwise there is absolutely no justification for abhoring it.

Vivek and Echoboom,

Adultery is not an implusive act that happens by itself. You have to find a willing partner, seduce them and consummate it, without alerting your spouse. That is a premeditated act. If you get into a compromising situation by chance, you can always say no and just walk away. No one points a gun at your head and forces you to commit adultery.

Farzana Versay,

Muslims have Iman that marriage is contractual, with ensuing rights and obligations, which can be revoked, providing the tapestry of circumstances merit. Admissability of Talaq is often left to the arbitrary discretion of judges. Hindus extol marriage as a sanctity, never to be toyed around with. Do you reckon South Asian legal systems merit ammendment to accomodate more lax laws on divorce, as a pre-emption and prevention of looming adultery on the horizon ?

A few more points. The option of Talaq, legally permissible under Shariah is an avenue open to all, where a divorced wife is entitled to maintenance and child support. Divorce ofcourse is a legal avenue often wrought with other social stigmata in developing nations like Pakistan and India. So solace can be nurtured through the auspices of unique workable formulas between couples themselves, as per suggested in your opus. Could you extol certain examples ?

Adultery anonymous makes me distinctly reminiscent of the enthralling Khalil Gibran. Often adultery takes place because spouses don`t give each other the sanctity of ``breathing space``. I share with you a masterpiece by Khalil Gibran:


``You were born together, and together you shall be forevermore.

You shall be together when white wings of death scatter your days.

Aye, you shall be together even in the silent memory of God.

But let there be spaces in your togetherness,

And let the winds of the heavens dance between you.

Love one another but make not a bond of love:

Let it rather be a moving sea between the shores of your souls.

Fill each other`s cup but drink not from one cup.

Give one another of your bread but eat not from the same loaf.

Sing and dance together and be joyous, but let each one of you be alone,

Even as the strings of a lute are alone though they quiver with the same music.

Give your hearts, but not into each other`s keeping.

For only the hand of Life can contain your hearts.

And stand together, yet not too near together:

For the pillars of the temple stand apart,

And the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other`s shadow. ``



Farzana a last question to you: do you feel that if enough ``ventilation`` was allowed between spouses, as Khalil Gibran titillatingly recommends, there would be less recourse to adultery? Another question: ``Can you name a few ideas of how ``ventillation`` and ``breathing`` space can be ploughed to yield a more promising harvest for the marriage crop ?

By no means an eternal crop.

Marriage is a pact based on trust. In a marriage, in that trust, spouses “own” each other sexually. Single-partner sex is not natural. No other species adheres to it and humans are not any different. Unlike other species, however, man (woman) has forced sexual fidelity on to himself and formed an institution called marriage. That forced fidelity has not killed the inborn urge and temptation and not many can resist it. Extramarital sex is not immoral but a betrayal of trust.

amit:8

Aur yaar yahaaN hUmeiN , ( switch to eng. maybe you don`t know hindi/urdu)

... I mean , Here their throats have dried out elevating Urstruly and myself to the mullah`s status.

I think in the presence of tahmed the 32nd Imam, and you the ad-hoc reincarnation of Vishnu, Urstruly and myself are the shatoogRRays ( little Satans)--raakhishes.


Bhayaa jaan: agar pehla love at first sight pUr hho saktaa hai, then it is possible to have fifth love at first sight as well. Some people have a very sharp eye for the new moons--especially mullahs.

Re: # 4

We can count on Cayenne to spew, after all someone is pushing it in from the other end; it has to come out somewhere. Try not to gag when they switch ends on you, after all it`s only your own scat, cat.

Re: # 11

...mullahs love moons and are famous for mooning...;) kyun chacha??

khamkhwa:13 urf Khwajaa kee divanee.
``aap kaa bjaana bilkul furmaa hai``

o sorry:
aap kaa frmaanaa bilkul bjaa hai

kahaaN tuk bjoa GAY , khaaN tUK bjaaooN

Re:echo

Yaar, I am all for romantic relationships, when you are single. That is a great experience and a lot of fun. I have dated and gone out prior to my marriage. I was never into casual sex, but I had long-term relationships. However, once you are married, I think your roving eye should be controlled. Unlike relationships, adultery is a purely destructive thing which causes tremendous pain and suffering.

amit,
Love happens sometimes even to the most controlled person, its immaterial if he/she is married or not.

Farzana

Very complex issues.

Wife or husband is a society`s, family`s, religion`s requirement for pro-creation and stability of society. If there is love & satisfaction of carnal instincts in it, it is a bonus.

But non-fidality & `other` in life is definitely a blissful experience. Like the stolen oranges.

Our Principal, Mr. Catchpole, always exhorted us with a smile `do anything but do not get caught`. He never spared anyone who was caught.

nhk

Dear Farzana,

Thanks for the article.

You`d enjoy reading A Natural History of Love by Diane Ackerman.

In it she maps all kinds of love, and the economic, biological and evolutionary processes associated with love. She treats love like an industry and it is a fascinating, paradigm shifting read, where she exposes a highly personal quest to be nothing but a predetermined part of an evolving tool of survival.

Adultery was not necessarily an unacceptable thing in all cultures. Various tribes, even today in the Amazon don`t believe promiscuous nature of the women to be of any moral degradation. Likewise, all patriarchal societies have institutionalized adultery though polygamy, and religion has played its part too, more visible in the Islamic Shii tradition of Mutaa, or temporary marriage. In modern terms adultery for women is the most empowering way (in a secretive way) to lash out at the patriarchal systems, or so women think, little do they know, that they are strengthening it, and weakling the alliance of women.

Contract or no contract, there must be an independent standard of determining truth, regardless of consensus. The moment couples dictate moral behavior from consensus, it’s a sin in itself. A wife living with a man she cannot get herself to love, is harming her soul, a man not content with his marriage and looks for ways outside to ``find a spark`` is unspining his wheel, making his life harder. His esteem in his own eyes becomes questionable.

Morality comes in where you have enough forthrightness to reflect your temporal contracts with what your mind and heart believe. If you aren`t content, leave a marriage.

Because people don`t bring harmony between their body and minds, social contracts reflect that disharmony. Marriage is now a piece of worthless legislation. What counts is a meeting of the minds, an acceptance of two mature adults who want to meet higher goals together, its about emotional support, not a living arrangement. There are so many marriages today that don`t reflect the abuse that goes on in marriages, so then what good is the legal document? Personally the verbal understanding counts more than the paper contract. That, once broken is already makes any prior understanding null and void.

Love is about the future of your legacy though gene poll, about divine goals, and it really cannot be, for all practical purposes, shared between more than two people at one given time, within one one verbal contract`s time frame. So, Farzana the statement, ``Most people use the morality bait. There are more moral arguments against adultery than practical ones,`` would only be accurate if there was no patriarchy and power structures in place, if there was no withheld information, and no emotional infidelity.

Aisha Sarwari

It is a difficult and complex question with no straight forward answers.Being in the field of mental health since17 years,I have seen many``cases``(if you may call them so),who have admitted having ``done`` or at least having thought of doing it,but there are very very few who try to defend it.This is what adds to the ambiguity surrounding this subject.
People have tried to understand this behaviour from all possible angles including developmental,psycho-sexual,psycho-social,experiencial,religeous,existential etc.,but every theory falls short somewhere as there are different factors or combination of factors involved in each case.Sex,contrary to the common belief,for sure, is not the exclusive factor.In fact in some cases,sex doesn`t even figure in the relationship.

this might be controversial but i don`t think that it is in the male nature to be monogamous--islam solves this problem by allowing polygamy and concubinage....though the latter is not practised in the modern world it was a part and parcel of most world cultures until the 20th century; in practise it still exists in the form of having many mistresses but without the responsibilities...

a great article as always farzana...

talking of adultery reminds me of cricketeer Zaheer Abbass , he married Rita Luthra , now
Samina, from India , a much married woman. was Zaheer also married before. can pakistani chowkies shed any light on this.

A quick general note...

I was not too happy using the term `Other Woman/Man`, but this coinage has currency and acceptability. For the purpose of this piece, (and often in life outside the social barricades) the person is in fact The One, not The Other.

I am aware that it is a complex subject, despite its prevalence in almost all societies. In fact, I was asked by a couple of people that it seemed I was not quite myself and being a bit soft here. For me, that was the purpose -- the voice of confusion is the woman who is afraid only because she, a married person, is desired AND loved by a man other than her husband. There are questions, and many of you have responded with those very aspects...
- Adultery is not only about sex; often there could be very little of it.
- Male polygamy is seen as acceptable, but what about a woman`s needs that may be more than carnal?
- If the married person is `caught`, should s/he deny the relationship? Would this not belittle the woman/man you are with?
- Is adultery the first or last resport? It isn`t a resort; it could well be a continuum to the seeking of what one considers a perfect companionship, which is anyway a chimera.
- Would `ventilation` in a marriage prevent adultery? I can hold forth on this, but it would defeat the purpose of the article and an important reality of life. Suffice to say, all relationships need breathing space, but all humans also want to possess. In adulterous relationships too there is possessiveness, they are not perfect in any manner.
- Why is it okay to fantasise about Angelina Jolie/Brad Pitt when you are with your partner, but a sin when you are with a real person?
- Why is it that people get uncomfortable talking about it, and contemporary feminism in our subcontinent gives it shoirt shrift?
- The point is: are you willing to grant dignity to one who adds to your life, despite the moral baggage? If you can get into something, then why can you not stand by it?

Aisha: Great post and good to have a woman here! You talk about an idealised situation where there is no `moral infidelity`, which is really what I want heard.
Ozerkhalid: Gibran is wonderful...

Thanks for the engaging and honest posts...it is so easy for a subject like this to turn into a sleaze fest.

Regards,
Farzana

PS: In most marriages in India (rest of the subcon?) the wife toois the other woman to the man`s mother...

One of the best discourses, I have read. Farzana Versey, my hats off to you, and a bow in respect of such a lucid, but potent article. One can only pray that these matters of reality may be taken in the spirit in which you have so beautifuuly brought out. What can, however, be done to resolve the issues with the confused moralists of our socities. As I was reading your article, I could quite vividly imagine what Lord Wolfenden would have gone through, while proposing opening up the British society in 1959. Not so much related to your theme but the issue of `sexuality` in its own context.

Keep it up Farzana, you are needed. You belong to that breed of individualists, who are a necessary componant, for a healthy debate, in pursuing a more tolerant, a more compassionate, a little more liberal social system, away from the claws of self imposed moralists.

What you have put in doesn`t just apply to a woman, but as you wrote wo/man eqwually.

Farzana,
good article.
Makes me wonder why adultery happens.
Unsatisfied emotional and physical needs or lack of understanding between a couple which makes a person find happiness elsewhere?.
I believe sex outside marriage is more difficult for women than men. For men it may be satisfaction of their carnal desires but for a woman it may be trying to find her self and her self worth by indulging in such a relationship. It is a complex issue which requires a deeper understanding of marital relations to understand adultery.

Farzana - ``There are more moral arguments against adultery than practical ones.`` true. especially when marriage is a business like affair entered into with a clear sense of things attained and things adjusted.

From Psychiatric/Psychological perspective,persons with certain personality traits are more prone to become unfaithful e.g. people with antisocial traits have little respect for societal norms or ethics and they feel little or no guilt about breaking the norms and they have problems in other areas of life also.Others are those who are called ``unstable`` or ``borderline`` personalities,who start feeling bored very easily in any situation.Also they are very high on sensation seeking and keep experimenting with various things including drugs,extra-marital relations,risky activities etc.Third category is of Narsissistic personalities who live for only themselves and have no regards for others` needs and emotions.They can exploit any relation to suit their need of self agrandizement and bragging about their achievements.They use other people as tools.In all these categories,extra-marital relatios are usually short lasting and rarely have equal reciprocaton from both sides and sex is the major attraction.
Having said this,there are bilaterally reciprocated relations as well where unmet dependency needs are the main reason and sex does not play important part-the so called Plutonic relationships.

First, I think adultery is a strong word with religious connotations. Second, this is a not a society, culture or even a home breaking issue. Even in the Western society where cheating and two timing are now common phrases, a miniscule portion of the society is impacted by it. My suspicion is that in the US, it is more of an ego or a slight issue than a home breaking or relationship breaking issue. At least the West has moved beyond the garbage notions of honor, Izzat and Ghairat of the tribal or feudal societies of the subcontinent.
In the ancient societies, the “Evil” was created for people to understand the “Good”. God has Satan good behavior has bad behavior. Every prophet (good) had an enemy (Evil).Every good king had a bad king. The tradition followed in the literature and the concept of good and evil was promoted. The ignoramus whole-heartedly bought the whole enchilada. The Shakespeares of every literature excelled in creating good and evil character and writers from the feudal and tribal eras confirmed that the adultery is an evil concept. (In the ancient societies, women were actually considered evil or why would men place so many restrictions on them?)
I don’t know when the institution of Marriage or monogamous relationship took hold of the society but adultery became the evil part of the good deed (marriage).
Animals have no concept of monogamous relations and they don’t raise kids together. Human are just an extension of animals. So the concept of monogamy is forced on human. If marriage is natural then adultery is also natural.

With that preamble, adultery had taken an entirely new meaning in the 20th century. Before that, creating secure environment for the fair sex was the fundamental objective of the society. Feudal and tribal societies still put a premium on that. In Pakistan the progress of the country was halted to protect “Chadar and Chardewari”( what non sense). In the name of protection, tribal societies invented Pardeh, Hijab, dupatta, full sleeves and 20 layers of clothing. The husbands were even placing objects physically to save women from the evil designs of the fellow men.
With this protection came ignorance. Women were not able to see outside, men found enjoyment in unprotected women.
Too many details in the adultery stuff but in nutshell, those who cannot provide protection don’t delve too much on adultery. A poor men or women’s concept of adultery is entirely different from the protectors and the protected of the better off classes. A poor person’s wife is only economically protected-that too barely. She lives with her husband’s adultery. A poor man has more tolerance for his wife’s adultery than a middleclass person who provides more protection.
In the West, where both men and women have moved beyond protection, cheating and two timings are just some issues to deal with in a relationship. If you feel strongly, end the relationship or you get back. Those who do need protection live with it like their counterparts in the Subcontinent.
It will take a long time for the newly liberated city dwelling subcontinent women to understand that they can get back if they can live without protection.

Personally, I think Sex is just an emotion. Some control their emotions well and some don’t. People just have to understand it as a human emotion like crying, laughing, and fighting etc. You cry, laugh and fight with several people. Why can’t you have sex with several people?

Naqsh (#20),

I am all for concubines ... do you have a sister who might be interested ...?

... you could argue on basis of a technicality that sattar is really not a muslim ... but then you must admit that your local imam is. So what’s the answer?

Heck, I used to be crazy about the concept of weekend muttah … but you have one-upped it by this concubine thing … gotta love Islam. Let me ask then … does paying a prostitute count as zakaat?

Dear Farzana:

I think you just liked the name ``adultry anonymous`` and just named it. BTW, is this how you run your personal life too? You don`t need to answer the last question.

Anil

Ferzana,

Last year one of my desi friends got divorced due to adultery. He was married to a wonderful woman and had a 4 year old daughter. He started having an affair with a gori girl at work and eventually moved in with her after abandoning his family. I could observe first hand the incredible pain inflicted on his family. His wife was almost suicidal and went into a deep depression. Her parents had to come over from India to support her emotionally. The impact on the kid was even worse. She became totally quiet and withdrawn. Basically the lives of 2 people were almost completely ruined.

You know what his wife told us? She said that if he had died in a car accident or from a disease or even just divorced her due to some incompatibility, it would not have been as painful as being betrayed and abandoned for another woman. Adultery has devastating effects. Let us not try to sugercoat this ugly aspect of human behavior.

The fact of the matter is that marriage is hard work, no matter who you are married to. Even the most lovey-dovey couples fight and get bitter at each other. In a marriage, you can only get back proportional to what you put in. If you take the effort to be loving and caring, and bringing in romantic sizzle in your marriage, there is a good chance that you will get some of that in return. If you make no effort and imagine that things will happen by themselves, then your marriage will go downhill.

As far as the other party is concerned, there is alway temptation in this world. But life is all about making choices and paying the price. For example, my 5 year old son is the apple of my eye. I can never imagine doing something to lose him. So, I take deliberate care not to let any situation get out of hand. I refuse to have one on one lunch with female coworkers. I will alwys invite someone else to come with us. When I travel with mixed company, I try not to drink the previous evening, etc.

Children are undoubtedly the worst sufferers of their parents` adultery which leads to broken homes.Maximum patients of serious psychiatric illnesses, drug/alcohol dependence
and deliberate self harm come from broken families.

Dear Farzana:

It all depends upon what value system one follows. Let me explain:

There is the system which places a higher value on collective good over individual rights - the collective could be a biradari/jirga, ethnicity (e.g., quebecois, maratha), state or a supranational entity, such as ummah.

The second system is one that puts family above an individual and society; this is the system prevalent in most of Asia, including India and Pakistan. At its best, you see this system at work in Bollywood where brothers, sisters, mothers, fathers are competing to sacrifice themselves for others; at its worst one sees it in people killing their own to protect the family honour.

The third system is the Anglo-Saxon system where it is the individual uber alles. Here, all that counts is I, me and mine and everything else is secondary. This system seems to be the model now for the Indian Gen-Xs as well.

What you say in this article is valid only if you believe in this third model.

Re: # 32

DM - let me play devil`s advocate here. Is it in the greater interest to consign oneself to an unhappy marriage that sees, say, daily screaming matches, indifference, children who become pawns, etc or is it better to cut the chord once and for all and grab your chance at love when it comes up knowing that this might be your one chance to become a happier and perhaps kinder person in the process?

sattar ignoring your offensive remark, i made the point that in every society concubines existed and performed a social function--otherwise why did they exist for so long. as for prostitutes--i have a lot of sympathy for them; they get a raw deal from society. in an ideal society they wouldn`t exist but since humans aren`t perfect they will always exist.

my argument is that isn`t polygamy with all its responsiblities better than adultery?

Re: # 34
No. You cant right a wrong by legalizing it.

Naqshbandi,
There is evidence of some women in almost every society having paramours throughtout history, so should we legalise the right of a woman to have multiple patners too?

DMji,
Adultery sometimes happens and is often not planned. Many people who have committed adultery also are loving family members. Then again, adultery has been taking place all through Indian history inspite of all the tall claims that Indians make about them being the ``living for the family`` type.

#34,

We should legalize polygamy and while we are at it legalize polyandry too. Why shouldn`t women have multiple partners? While we are at it we should legalize same sex relationships too.

To keep things from getting too complicated the only legal form of polygamy-andry should be the one where one limited group of men and women are wed to only that particular group. The men and women should not be allowed to have relationships outside this group. Otherwise we will have a situation where every person is connected to the other through only six degrees of separation in legal relationships.

Mahesh,
You left out bisexuality.

amrita, vivek:

I believe that a loving single parent family is preferable to a dysfunctional two parent family. Yes, adultery happens but it is another matter whether one should consider it virtuous.

DMji,
I do not think of adultery as a virtue but it is not a crime. It happens everywhere so we have to learn to live with it.

Vivek, no I haven`t.

I suggest to make any form of relationship legal among a limited group of men and women.

I suggest the group size be limited to 4. The group could consist of anywhere from 1 to 4 men or women.

Increasing the size would lead to petty jealousies and breakdown of society.

Mahesh,
Joseph Smith Jr., the founder of the mormons seems to have had a huge number of wives, all loyal to him. Not much of infightings in the Mormons record. So you are being too conservative in choosing the number to be 4. I suggest 50.

naqshbandi: polygamy is legitimized adultery.

Re: # 39
DM - Cool. Btw, my feelings are about the same except I think these are individual choices rather than cultural.

And [this is more general] I dont think Farzana advocated adultery or tried to determine the amount of virtue in it - the article seems to question the sufficiency of the institution of marriage as a buffer against falling in love with a third person.

amrita #44: adultery does not mean that a man is in love with more than one woman. On the contrary, it indicates the man is in love only with himself.

This is because clearly the man seeks to maximize his personal sexual enjoyment without regard to the miseries and difficulties it creates for his wife and children. I have seen this happen with people.

Re: # 45

Sure, but the specific examples Farzana discusses here are of those who fall in love even though they are married to other people. She notes the more common examples above.

Re43: Great comment..after having spent the most of my growing up years in Saudi..I have to say from a first hand view..that is perfectly spot on.

Re43: Great comment..after having spent the most of my growing up years in Saudi..I have to say from a first hand view..that is perfectly spot on.

Re: # 27

Excuse me dear HP you are blatantly wrong when you say ``Animals have no concept of monogamous relations and they don’t raise kids together. Human are just an extension of animals. So the concept of monogamy is forced on human. If marriage is natural then adultery is also natural``.

It is wrong to make such a sweeping generalization about sexual relations. Some of the animals especialy the birds do have monogamous relations and they raise their kids together. Have you not kept the pigions and seen both father and mother feeding their kids? In fact the kids of the most of the animals do not need parental care as the human kids do. And many of the humans do have genuine monogamous fixatin which may sometimes be broken by sex. This is a very tricky question indeed especially for the humans who think and moralize with a religious tinge. Otherwise, sex is almighty life force which has its own laws.

....... once in a while i see a woman who makes me want to commit adultery ........ i simply recite dua-i-qunut and take a very cold shower ........... it is good that there arn`t too many of these women ..........

Re: # 26
You don`t respond like a professional psychiatrist, though you may talk about the psychiatrist`s perspective - your response is more like that of the traditional S. Asian who knows a bit of the jargon. Adultery does cause a good deal of grief and unhappiness, breaks up homes, etc., etc., but it isn`t really a psychological aberration or a psychiatric condition as you try to make out!

Are you sure you`re really a psychiatrist?

Adultery isn`t something people get into just because of the problems/conditions you talk about. And it often causes as much anguish and pain to the perpetrators of adultery as to the victims of the adulterer. Surely Farzana`s point is that it could happen to anybody. Morality/religion/social conditioning apart.

Re: # 43

``naqshbandi: polygamy is legitimized adultery.``

Dear tahmed, by this definition monogamous marriage is also adultery at best and prostitution at worst. Which one would you use to describe the marriages of your parents, siblings, and your own?

Naqshbandi, bhai you`re asking for too much by throwing a post-graduate level topic at freshmen and hoping they would understand it as 2+2.

First let these guys and gals (with a few exceptions like Amit and and his ilk) figure out human physiology, sexology, psychology, anthrpology, sociology, criminology, economy, and all other basic stuff, as well as their effects on each other. Then perhaps they will be able to understand the graduate level topic of relationships and marriage before qualifying for complex post-graduate issue of polygamy and polyandry. Some of them are literally fixated on the genitalia to understand ``the birds and the bees``. For this lot life and religion are two separate entities, which causes conflicts in their thought processes. Thus, you see the endemic confusion in the essay as well the ensuing interacts except for a few of them.

hamidm, actually there are quite a lot of ``these women`` since they`ve burnt the bra... you`re just too busy taking cold showers and invoking the Almighty for divine sedative... just kidding my friend...you rarely offer half-volleys................... lol

It is possible to love more than one person.Life is full of such possibilities.

Re: # 51
Why are you so upset about my response?Have you read my earlier interact also?(#19)

I dont know how you inferred that I am trying to categorize adultery as psychiatric condition. I wanted to convey that adultery is not a homogenous entity.Saying that``it can happen to any one`` is overgeneralization and very much layman like response with strong element of denial and avoidance. Yes,everybody can get into a situation which can lead to adultery but does everyone of them become adulterous?Some are able to exercise control,while others are not--will there be some differences in these two types of people or not?

Can you equate theft of a piece of bread by a hungry person living on street to income tax theft by a millionairre?

No need to get personal since we dont know each other and are talking about just a phenomenon and are free to express our views.

ntsyed #52 your post is an example of the primitive maulvi mindset, that is:

1. It seeks to defend a primitive custom that has no place in today`s society;
2. It includes filthy insults directed towards family members;
3. Trying to cloak your primitive mindset by proclaiming yourself to be a learned man.

Your mindset is the product of growing up in some filthy gulli. I shall not fall to your level, however. Nor will I waste more time with you demonstrating the weakness of your ``logic``, nor how your ``logic`` applies to you as much as it does to me or any other person. And no doubt you will respond with more filth, reflecting the kind of household you were raised in. So last post to you.

Saj #48 Thanks. I too was surprised at the primitive society in saudi arabia: I was invited to dinner by a bengali family in jeddah. The man told me how there was a saudi man living in the same apartment building, who maintained two separate apartments on the same floor, one for each of his two wives. When he quarrelled with one wife, he would go to the other wife. Then he would quarrel with her. Only in Saudi Arabia!! :-)

Re: # 50
[....... once in a while i see a woman who makes me want to commit adultery ........]

it happens....when you are past 40 ...;)

Re: # 55

Oops...I`m sorry tahmed. I didn`t know I stepped on your tail. I hope it didn`t hurt too much, although it looks pretty bad from here.

I know it`s difficult for you to have your own foot stuffed in your mouth, especially if it comes from behind and over your shoulders, and you had bit your tongue just before that.

When you do take a breather from devouring your foot and licking your tail with your cut up tongue, please do point out the items you claim to be in my post. For your convenience, since you appear to be a freshman, I`ve copied those below:

``ntsyed #52 your post is an example of the primitive maulvi mindset, that is:

1. It seeks to defend a primitive custom that has no place in today`s society;
2. It includes filthy insults directed towards family members;
3. Trying to cloak your primitive mindset by proclaiming yourself to be a learned man.``

Then again, I may be asking for too much...especially since you`ve already submitted (So last post to you.). Logic and rationale are not your cup of tea yet, baby boy! Unless you enjoy clucking.

Meanwhile, please allow me to feed you your other foot:

``Your mindset is the product of growing up in some filthy gulli. The location in question must have been your gosha-e-aafiyat, as you seem well acquainted with it.

I shall not fall to your level, however.``: That`s right, you can`t fall to my level...you`d have to rise up, and it`s a pretty steep climb for you. Especially when you`ve already fallen way below with your preceding comment, which amply demonstrates your racism, bigotry, and outright stupidity.

And then this one: ``And no doubt you will respond with more filth, reflecting the kind of household you were raised in.``

Be careful chicko, you`re calling for an open season on YOUR household. Your feet are already in your mouth, your tongue is cut up, and tail is badly bruised after being stepped on. Owing to your tender age and precarious condition, retaining my higher moral ground I`ll let you slide. Tu bhi kya yaad karay ga kis sakhi se pala para tha tera....just don`t slide into your own muck.

Is there enough salt for the cuts, Bubba? No? Let me give you more...

Nor will I waste more time with you demonstrating the weakness of your ``logic``, nor how your ``logic`` applies to you as much as it does to me or any other person.

I think one of Sting`s classic songs must`ve been playing in the background when you typed the response, particularly the line highlighted above.

It goes something like this...

Don`t think me unkind
Words are hard to find
The only cheques I`ve left unsigned
From the banks of chaos in my mind
And when their eloquence escapes me
Their logic ties me up and rapes me

De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
Their innocence will pull me through
De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
They`re meaningless and all that`s true

Poets, priests and politicians
Have words to thank for their positions
Words that scream for your submission
And no one`s jamming their transmission
`Cos when their eloquence escapes you
Their logic ties you up and rapes you

De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
Their innocence will pull me through
De do do do, de da da da
Is all I want to say to you
De do do do, de da da da
They`re meaningless and all that`s true

Describes your response rather well, don`t you think?

Please be kind to Sting and don`t label him a closeted Maulvi just because he lyricized your dilemma so accurately.........lol

Temporal dear, your langotia yaar here needs a drink...he already has a chusni - his own feet. Actually that would make two giant ones or ten little ones.........lol

Enjoy munching on your feet, Joe-Hate frozen at 32. :-)~~

Re 56: Tahmed..thanx....that is but the tip of the iceberg sir. I have grown here in Saudi, and know quite of quite few local families here where the husband has more than one wife. In almost every situation the second sometimes third wife was taken after the husband hits his 50s...first wife normally by then in early 40s. The new wife often being some poor 20-30 yr old....the reasons are so straightforward that I dont need to point them out here. The justifications though that I have heard...especially from the mullah variety..tend to go on the line that men are inherently more horny...polygamy provides a great method to solve this ``problem`` without the ``rampant adultry....blah blah`` found in the West...it provides a ``caretaking`` solution for ``poor..uncared for`` single women...etc etc....incredible how the innate quite perverse reason is twisted around these latter ``justifications``.....what to do I guess...its socially accepted here...less and less though by the educated females..

Saj #59 This ``midde aged man`` disease you point to is unfortunately not restricted to Saudis only. The other day a middle aged Pakistani told me (supposedly as a joke) that he is thinking of getting a 20 year old wife from Pakistan!! This from a man who has always been unfailingly polite, has children, and is a highly qualified professional who has spent his life advising national governments across the world. I asked him (in the same joking manner), if his wife and grown up children were planning to attend the wedding.

Of course, in Saudi Arabia this disease is legitamized. The religious sanction they claim is only a pretext. I used to go to Africa on work, and this disease is widespread there as well among people of all religions - as a man improves his lot in life, he gets more and more wives and ``girlfriends`` (one reason why HIV has had such a damaging affect in Africa, since the many top professionals, government ministers and all were wiped out by Aids).

Marriage - what an institution! One half of my being says one thing, the other quite the opposite.

Sounds like many people haven’t been blessed with the adultery bliss here!
I can’t believe people here are soooo not into adultery.

How many marriages in South Asia are based on courtship first?
The whole system is based on forced love because woman is molested the first night and she falls in love with the molester and remains so until he finds another one i.e. if he can really find one all by himself.

Yeah right! most south Asian men are debauched!

Most men are just talk some go out once in a while if they can afford it. It is not a real issue. Just some inspired by stories from the west think that their men are committing adultery, when the truth is most subcontinent men commit adultery in their heads only.
Basically FV in the whole article appears totally confused. Which society is she talking about? South Asian or the West!

“The Other Woman is a floozy. The Other Man is a slimeball”

Floozy right! but I have never heard of the other man called a slimeball at least not the first time. If it becomes a recurring theme than and only than a woman tends to think that may be she is married to a slimeball!
Cheating is so confusing that some actually call it an affair. There is no floozy or slimeball in an affair. The problem is when one in the relationship really starts to sleep around

“Each couple wants a formula that works. Most go through this status quo even when it does not suit them. Some try and look for alternatives. It is not always to demean the partner.”

Does this describe Indian/Pak society where 95% are just happy to be married?

No couple looks for a formula that’s lots of garbage. Excuse me Ms.Versey. Nobody in any marriage “wants” any formula because there is none. There are some well defined acceptable and unacceptable behaviors and all successful marriages stay with in those boundaries. Then there are some that fall through the cracks.

For some ladies looking at Playboy would be cheating, for some going to a porn site is cheating and then there are porn sites where both husband and wife participate. Swinging is not an alien concept in redneck culture. There really is no formula! People live by what they feel comfortable with.
There is no definition of adultery. Yeah! You can find one in dictionary but does that really define it? Is going to massage parlor, adultery? Is paying for the sex, adultery? Is one night stand, adultery? Having long term relationship outside of an existing relationship is an affair and not adultery!


#49 by teshah

Shah Sahib talking about “Cloacae kiss”. No I haven’t seen one. Never followed “Kabooters” but “kabootris” like Neeki aur pooch pooch!
Magar! ub kehan rehain woh baatien!

Re:HP#62

You wrote,``I can’t believe people here are soooo not into adultery.``

Sirjee, I live in New Jersey. Besides losing my wife and 5 year old son, I will lose 50% of everything that I have in alimony and child support payments. So let me see, I lose half my assets and my family not to mention my mental peace, all for a roll in the hay with some floozy who probably whores around anyway? No, thanks !!

Very well Naqsh (re #34) …

… this concubine thing ``allowed in Islam`` is ok for you. But when applied to your sisters, it becomes offensive … what gives? How can an Islamic practice be offensive? Don’t be surprised if your local imam has hots for your sisters … and can quote ahadith suggesting he should be indulged.

And what important social function did concubines perform? Granted, the institution has existed all along … but so has homosexuality, pedophilia, and wine consumption. And prostitute is just another name for a concubine ... so what’s the hang up?

Re: # 54
No, I hadn`t read your earlier interact, actually (#19) - that seems to be a normal, sensible one. I really should have read that one too before going through this one, certainly.
And I wasn`t being personal, only pointing out that your views in that particular (later) interact seemed to be completely unscientific and non-medical. Read your own interact again to see why I interpreted your comments in the way I did. My point is that it`s being simplistic to attribute psychiatric causes to the fact that some persons commit adultery in situations where other persons can avoid that. Of course you are free to air your views - we all are - it`s only because you`re a psychiatrist that I responded to your views. There are several other interactors whose ideas/attitudes might seem quite reprehensible/oddball/whatever, but one expects a psychiatrist, who`s a medical specialist, to be a little more circumspect. Of course, it`s also wrong to expect a psychiatrist to be politically correct all the time - he`s also human, with his own prejudices, biases, etc.

Re: # 64

ignoramus, it is not permissible in islam to enslave free muslim women and men...only non-muslim captives of war could be made concubines or those already born into slavery...

Naqsh,

... but what if there aren’t enough concubines to go around? Should the ummah keep waging wars to ensure a constant supply of infidel virgins? Would it be alright if the US marines take Iraqi women as their concubines?? Dude … don’t be so quick to justify this lopsided view of yours.

POWs too deserve to be treated with dignity. Islam teaches us that POWs should be fed first, and then the muslim army can have their meal. How do you start from here, and end up with turning POWs into concubines?

Protecting your sisters while violating infidel women … is hypocrisy. Views of your ullema are scary ... god only knows what they would do to minorities if given a chance.

Re: # 29
Have been going through the whole buffoonry of interactioins here. But this one beats all. I am not holding Farzana`s brief here. But whether she is, or not. Whose business is it. Sickening!

Re: # 27

Not just an emotion. IT IS THE FOOD OF LOVE(emotionally). apetite, hunger (physically) SEX that`s what it is. It has it`s own dimensions.

Both man and woman are naturally polygamous. In case of woman, it is insecurity instilled in her, which brings on the veil of a monogamous nature. Man has always used his physical power to put woman in servitude. What is adultry, anyway? The fear or hate of the other woman is one more example how man has made woman his `slave`. Woman against woman. Great. We all need to revisit Marx.

Morality or morals are beyond trivialities of sex and alcohol. But the MULLAH would of course always be one up. For us it begins and ends in both.

Does any one here believe in the ``rule of harm``?

How long can a man go on eating ``murghi`` day in and day out; for that amtter how long can a woman be made to eat a ``mugha``, for the rest of her life.

Re: # 63
Thank your stars you live in New Jersey. You r just fretting over losing on alimony. Here they take take your genitalia out.