2005 UK General Elections

ozerkhalid #46

`` Of course you would not dream of giving an iota of importance to the thousands of innocent Iraqi mothers and children getting pillaged and slaughtered by foreign troops?
Surely more than a “tinge” of neo-fascism on your part amigo? ``

As a matter of principle I do not like the US invasion of Iraq. However it is hard for me to vigorously protest against acts of ommission by US troops when I looked the other way for most of Saddam`s 25 year rule. I can see why Americans do not want their citizens to die in Iraq and spend their hard earned dollars on the war. I fail to see why British Muslims would be so agitated to vote against Blair for the Iraq war.

Re ALL who wrote to my points:.....Yes Syke and few others....thats exactly correct....we`re talking 4% in a 50 mill nation..its still a tiny amount, and honestly the community as whole regardless of faith is still facing some of challenges they have have had to deal with since their initial arrival in the late 50s....namely..equality in the housing and job markets..access to decent public education...and adequete minority representation in parliment. This fractionalization of the community along faith and communal lines does nothing for all parties. Honestly about half the 2.2 million asians are muslim...another 30% is hindu and the remainder mainl sikh..with maybe a few christians. Just look at the numbers then..it becomes quite pathetic for each individual sub-community if they try work on their own for political gains. Pakistani and Kashmiri muslims breaking away for a pan-islamist identity with other muslims..just does not make sense. Honestly speaking what genuine cohesivness could there be in community interests of areas of large arab populations in london;s west end...edgeware road..knightsbridge and all...and the Pakistani community of north Manchester. Anger over the war in Iraq is perfectly justifiable and voting against an individual who led the nation to that war is a perfectly acceptable democratic right. The problem is when..for example BBC World ran a program just before election night on the election candidates in Blackburn (which has a 25% muslim population). There was the anti labour British Pakistani candidate who was unabashedly running against the labour incumbent Jack Staw on a rigid SINGULAR main issue of Iraq.....that cannot be a cohesive strategy for the Asian community in Britain..honestly..at one point or another 2 million people marched against the war...so u imagine how many more silent anti-war supporters..do the math..the anti-war movement had large support among Labour and Liberal Dem voters...white..black..asian..christian..muslim..hindu...whatever...the main point that the anti-war movement was largely not a simple muslim led religious based movement and should not be painted as one. On the other hand of more than a few muslim British Asian community leaders..faith leaders and politicians to paint it exactly as a ``war on islam`` and so forth was far too opportunisitic and it seems clearly that there was much sheepish voting by members of the said community on these lines. Now as some others have noted..what could be solutions...honestly I think there has to be far greater communication and interaction between all these community...faith leaders and politicans among British muslims..hindus and sikhs..to bring the overall political framework on the vast majority of issues if NOT ALL....improvement s housing..education..job access...and removing the still lingering racism that clearly exists in these areas of ALL asians regardless of faith and community...certain foreign policy issues will always divide communities to an extent...it is less likely for British hindus to get worked up over the religious angle in Iraq...similarily for British muslims over say the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan...the point is ultimately elections and life is generally about so called bread and butter issues that I have mentioned above..these are what fundamentally impact day to day life for a british asian living in manchester..london..wherever..and on all these issues..there is great commonality that all British Asians face regardless of faith and community...far greater commonality than say like I said between the predominant British Pakistani community in Manchester and northern England and the large relatively wealthy arab community in West London...Both of the latter may be muslims...but believe any British asian knows from the history of the entire community..from the 1950s..the challenges of british sikhs in southall and british pakistani muslims in manchester are always gonna be more similar than the lebanese community around edgeware road. Also just in case some steps in and says the British Indian community clearly outperforms the British Pakistani community as seen by comparitive GCSE results etc shownb by BBC..that is largely true..but you also have to understand that a large part of the British Indian community`s success comes from the specific Gujarati community that migrated from Uganda in the 1970s..so called African Asians...this community was largely rich..highly educated community .very very very different from the majority of the classical Indian community that came since the 1950s..(not including all this South Indian nurses/doctors lot that have come in the last 5-7 years)....the latter would be far closer to the British Pakistani migrants in terms of educational and occupational background...and also in current educational standards. Anyways coming back to point...all I can say is that inspite of differences such as Iraq..there is far far clearly more that unites all british asians on real domestic issues that are gonna affect 99% of their daily lives..and it is high time leaders saw that.

#84 by Zakkk on May 10, 2005 5:02pm PT


Tell me Arjun..what do you think of Irish Americans who supported the IRA?


Were they behind as an ethnic group and still voting on that one issue? If they were, they were no less stupid than the brit-pakis....


Or tell me how many people of Indian descent non Sikhs demonstrated when the Sikhs were getting massacred after Indira Gandhis gov?


People who vote based on pan-Islamist causes and then try to pass it off as a vote on humatarian grounds have something to prove.....not Indians....

It`s your contention that the voting based on the war in Iraq was based on humantarian grounds and not pan-islamism...so the burden is on you to show that your humanitarian concerns apply to all cases and not just cases in which non-muslims are fighting muslims...If you had protested the atrocities of the saddam regime half as loudly as the war in Iraq, you`d have a point...



wrong with being an idealogue who believes Islam is the root of all evil


Aww..you poor picked-upon muslim you....

search through my posts...find one post where I thought the war in iraq(in which a bunch of muslims were killed) was a good idea...in case you need help in searching through my posts, let me know and i`ll help you....

Tell me Arjun..what do you think of Irish Americans who supported the IRA?

Or tell me how many people of Indian descent non Sikhs demonstrated when the Sikhs were getting massacred after Indira Gandhis gov?

Your gross generalisations and gross simplifications are those of an idealogue..there is nothing wrong with being an idealogue who believes Islam is the root of all evil (closely followed by Pakistanis)...to your credit though you probably know more about Pakistan & Islam then most Pakistanis ...it`s a shame it`s such a prejudiced view though...

paging the apologists for pan-Islamism..(ozerkhalid and Zakk)...how do you explain this poll?

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2002/guardian-muslims-poll-june-2002.htm

Forget Iraq for a minute...the war in Afghanistan against OBL was a real war against terrorism...so how do you explain why 66% of brit-muslims disapprove of the war against OBL and only 20% approve?

93% of brit-muslims are concerned about war in the middle east...95% of brit-muslims are concerned about the war in Kashmir....

Once again...how doesn`t that reflect a higher degree of concern for pan-Islamic causes...

And if brit-pakis are so concerned about the sufferings of their fellow humans, why hasn`t any brit-paki protested against the government of sudam for what it`s doing in darfur?

Did we hear of pakis, with their concern for the suffering of fellow humans, planning a bomb attack against the saddam regime? No...

POLICE SEIZE EXPLOSIVES
Eight men are continuing to be being questioned over an alleged plot to unleash a terrorist bombing campaign in Britain.

Detectives found more than half a ton of ammonium nitrate fertiliser - the same explosive ingredient already used in terror attacks in Bali, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Africa and the United States.

The suspects, aged between 17 and 32, are all British citizens and Muslims of Pakistani descent, sources said.


Pakistanis held in Iraq with explosives

BAGHDAD, March 26: Iraqi forces said on Saturday that they had arrested 120 suspects, including foreign Arabs, Pakistanis and Afghans, on suspicion of planning attacks against the country`s Shia community.

A source at the defence ministry said the suspects were arrested during a raid in Jurf al-Sakhr, about 60km south of Baghdad.

#66 by thunder on May 9, 2005 5:27pm PT


what about all the campaigning the british pakistanis did against saddam ? infront of embassies around the world, the US , the UK, there were massive rallies in London against Saddam ? how can you overlook that ?


I searched for that in google and didn`t find anything...maybe there`s a special search engine for pakiworld™, the magical mystical place where right is left and black is white and where brit-pakis came out on the streets protesting against saddam or didn`t back islamic terrorism in Kashmir....

maybe some brit-paki can post the url for that search engine...

#61 by ozerkhalid on May 9, 2005 4:52pm PT


Has your head been buried so deep in the Saharan sand that you did not take heed that Brit-Pakistanis, Brit-Hindus, Indian and Pakistani diplomats campaigned head-strong round the clock and relentlessly for years to push forward multi-lateral legislation against Saddam and his brutalities: to cite but a few concrete examples:


The odd brit-paki diplomat working against saddam is not the same as the vast number of brit-pakis marching in the streets..or voting primarily based on that issue...

I`m sure there were some brit-paki diplomats who worked with blair on the dossier or whatever lies he used to push the war...should we take that to mean the vast majority of brit-pakis were in favor of the iraq war?

Tell me how many brit-paki parliament members sponsored resolutions against saddam hussein when he was killing iraqis?


Please be informed before waxing lyrical.


Please post some links on brit-pakis making saddam`s opression or the genocide in rawanda the number one issue when that happened...

I`ll repeat so it`s clear: The vast majority of brit-pakistanis didn`t care when saddam was murdering iraqi mothers and children....or when rawandan mothers and children were being murdered....when that happened, it wasn`t their number one issue....

So please excuse me for not believing that brit-pakis were motivated by concerns for the sufferings of their fellow humans...

#60 by Zakkk on May 9, 2005 4:34pm PT


and as the decision to go to war effects millions of people it supersedes debates on education and health..


Education policy and health policy effects millions...millions of brits...including brit-pakis...this is absolutely about pan-Islamism...Most brit-pakis are against the war in Afghanistan too...


I could quote them to you..but I really wouldn`t wanna burst your Islamophobe bubble...


Umm...why don`t you quote them and actually burst the bubble...

and another thing...pakistan is not the same as islam...saying brit-pakistanis are more prone to terrorism is not the same as saying brit-muslims are more prone to terrorism...nice try tho...

thunder,
It is the duty of a govt. to first worry about its country`s self-interest and if that self-interest gets directed against some other country then the govt. has to do it. Tony Blair didn`t really have much of a choice. UK does depend on the USA for its daily bread and butter, so he had to join the war on Iraq. I don`t think it was a decision that he did with conviction, and I am sure any other person as PM of UK would have done the same thing. So if I had to judge Tony Blair, I would judge on things other than this issue. In short if I was a British voter, I would have voted for Tony Blair inspite of my opposition to the war on Iraq.

ozerkhalid,
The manifesto looks good to me. But then I don`t live in UK so cannot say for sure if they really have achieved what they have claimed to have achieved.

thunder,
Britain seems to have an uneasy relationship with EU. Seems like if the crunch point comes when they have to choose between EU and USA, they almost always choose USA. I guess its because they share the same heritage.

spiritualgypsy,
Tony Blair seems to have done a decent job with everthing else. I mean look at their NHS. It does not seem to be as bad some in the press have made it out to be, and if it had been left to the conservatives, they would have sold it out.

Re: # 57

vivek what do you feel blair has brought to the table ?

Re: # 57

vivek

surely the UK does not depend entirely on the US for its bread and butter? what about its allainces with the EU, and the Commonwealth, its own home-grown industries, its imports and exports ?

do you not feel that tony blair was acting as a lap dog for the US and was coerced into war ?

Re: # 57

Vivek you raise an interesting point. Just as an addendum to your comment herein lie the ``official`` benefits brought to the UK by Tony Blair and his navigation of the Labour Party . Do not buy into his ``sailing-skills`` wholesale, for at times he has pirated the seas akin to Captain Jack Sparrow, especially on Iraq, though there is a dosage of truism in a lot of these oceanic achievements:

Labour.org.uk

Labour`s top 50 achievements since being elected in 1997:

1. Lowest inflation since the 60s
2. Lowest mortgage rates for 40 years
3. Introduced the National Minimum Wage
4. Record police numbers in England and Wales
5. Cut overall crime by 30 per cent
6. Record levels of literacy and numeracy in schools
7. Best-ever primary school results
8. Funding for every pupil in England to double (since 1997) by 2007-08
9. Lowest unemployment for 29 years
10. Written off up to 100 per cent of debt owed by poorest counties
11. 78,700 more nurses
12. 27,400 more doctors
13. Brought back matrons to hospital wards
14. Devolved power to the Scottish Parliament
15. Devolved power to Welsh Assembly
16. Banned anti-personnel mines
17. NHS Direct offering free convenient patient advice at any time
18. New Deal - helped over a million people into work
19. Local government funding has increased by a third in real terms
20. Equalised the age of consent for gay men
21. Free entry to all national museums and galleries
22. Overseas aid budget more than doubled
23. Restored city-wide government to London
24. Child benefit up 25 per cent since 1997
25. Created Sure Start to help children from low income households
26. Introduced the Disability Rights Commission
27. £200 winter fuel payment to pensioners & extra £100 for over-80s
28. The biggest rolling stock replacement programme ever seen on our railways
29. Negotiated the historic Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland
30. Over 28,000 more teachers in England schools
31. Implemented the Freedom of Information Act
32. All workers now have a right to 4 weeks’ paid holiday
33. Record rises in the state pension
34. 700,000 children lifted out of relative poverty
35. Introduced child tax credit giving more money to parents
36. Banned handguns
37. Cut long-term youth unemployment by 75 per cent
38. Free nursery places for three and four-year-olds in England, Scotland and Wales
39. Free fruit for all four to six-year-olds at school
40. Free school milk for five, six and seven-year-olds in Wales
41. Record police numbers in Scotland
42. Implemented the Human Rights Act
43. Cleanest rivers, beaches, drinking water and air since the industrial revolution
44. Free TV licences for over-75s
45. Banned fur farming and the testing of cosmetics on animals
46. Halved maximum waiting times for NHS operations
47. Free local bus travel for the over-60s and the disabled in Wales and Scotland
48. Record number of students in higher education
49. Extended the Race Relations Act so that all public bodies and functions now have a duty to promote race equality
50. Five, six and seven-year-olds in class sizes of 30 or less


Want to comment on the list? Please call us on 08705 900200 or email info@new.labour.org.uk

Ozerkhalid

Don`t you think the way every discussion on this site ends up in a hindu-muslim trashfest, tawdry?.

In addition to interact #50, i left out the LIBRARY BAR at Taj President hotel and RESTOPUB ONYX a great drinking-eating-partying venue.There`s also GEOFFREY`S in Back Bay.`SUZIE WONG`` is the only floating bar in Mumbai.You can catch a boat at H2O Water Sports Complex and get there.Great views of the Mumbai skyline..The best pastime in mumbai is to buy booze at your local liquor store and head out with friends and get wasted, ofcourse.In India all recreation is available at reasonable prices or what the pocket will bear.Goa and Kerala are the two party states of india, due to the beautiful climate, beaches ,pubs/clubs and tourist traffic from all over the globe.Cut and paste these links and check out Mumbai.......

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981&page=5&pp=20

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=164579

cheers

cayenne

Re: # 55

Cayenne

Gracias a million times for your take on Mumbai`s nightlife. Sorry fellow participants, just this time my leaves wither away from the topic at hand, for Cayenne has given an exhaustive low-down on Mumbai`s nightlife, which merits a response.

Cayenne we may have started off on a wrong footing but you sound like me: a real party animal ! If you are in London we should get royally hammered as you can sip some of the finest cocktails here.

Seems that Mumbai`s impresarios excellently fling the hat of entrepreneurialism into the clubbing/nightlife scene. I guess apprehensions dissolve as you walk into an avant-garde floating bar named ``Suzie Wong``. Here in London we sometimes have ritzy boat parties
aboard the HMS Belfast, sinking into a prestigious boat-fest gala. Most boat parties leave from Westminster pier pass Embankment and end up at Greenwich.

Sounds like Mumbai`s party aficionados promenade into the inviting hospitality of the Resto Pub Onyx, Enigma and Athena. The caviar-like rarity of Mumbai`s eclectic boho chic crowd and the themed Olive venue, as well as Goa surely summon titillating tribes of party aficionados from far a field.

I usually spend time tasting the rarest champagne with chums at various London hot-spots, namely The Light Bar, Fifty which is a casino/2 restaurants V and Rama and private members club. Worthy of mention are also the Kingly Club, Number 5 Cavendish Square, Pangaea, Noble Rot, Aura, Embassy, Penthouse with a scenic view of London from its 8th floor and bespoke Sketch.

I would relish the opportunity to one day visit Mumbai and mingle with the Fashionista tribes and new-media heavy-weights flocked and cavorted unabridged and uncensored to soulful funk tinged with desi vibes ?

Converting Pound Sterling into Rupees probably means guzzling down the finest cocktails in Mumbai without having to shell out astronomical sums. The party scene in Bharat sounds like a refreshing gem as compared to the trashy tourism throw-away clubs mushrooming in and around Leicester Square.

They shall only be a crude map of disheveled memories a few months down the line.