Thus Fare Fake Democracies

Re: # 65 {``... US form of government is a shining example that the rest of humanity has accepted. The opposite of everything fascism stands for. ...``}

Ahmed sahib,

You are quite right in spirit and theory. I also, like millions the world over, embraced those same ideals in my youth that you defend and speak of here. I am (as surely you must be too) still committed to, and believe in those same ideals. In earlier messages I referred to them as the Jeffersonian ideals (though Jefferson was only one of those early visionary idealists who initiated this great civic experiment in human history). However, our point of departure is in our appraisal of the contemporary ground reality. In your view Eden is still alive and well. In my view the serpent has already done his dirty trick. You seem content with whatever exists and are unwilling to see that any ground has been lost, I on the other hand, lament the ``Paradise Lost``... In my humble view a modicum of ``...common sense and an ounce of intellectual honesty tells us that...`` something has gone badly amiss. You do not see it that way. That is perfectly fine. We can agree to disagree.

respectfully,

...SR

#73

“A-Hole usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it”

Like that idiot A-hole has some earth shattering, chaos in the universe type of info about Pakistan that nobody else have. A-hole is a plain and simple idiot and your support affirms that.

Re: # 70 dotty

Never mind HP :) He is just performing his post kick-in-the-nut monkey dance routine ......
Alephnull usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it - so they jump up and down and howl obescenities at him, just like HP is doing now. I am sure other pakis [like closet-mullah32] will soon follow suit.

#71

``Now just go and check up what Alephnull is``

I know what he is: a crazy bum! and an A-hole on top. Why you keep on insisting?

Re: # 67

The problem HP is that you do not have any concept of Alephnull. If you did you would immediately recognise that what you said can be immediately applied to what you said....

Now just go and check up what Alephnull is, then along the way other aleph`s and then Cantor on to the end

#67 by HP on May 15, 2005 2:13pm PT

I see you`ve moved up in the evolutionary chain....you can now use google...careful though...it might reveal things that are uncomfortable for the citizens of the paki echo-chamber of self-delusion to accept....

Re: # 52

``a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual``

That is how Hinduism is. So for India, democracry was not too difficult to digest and adopt.

Re: # 57

sr,

wow !!!!........... do you also sew your own jesus sandals and live on lentils and rice ?? ....... sorry - i just had to say that .......

......... but, sir, you are a much better man than the munafiq urstruly ........

#66

Now this stupid bum A-hole shows up to prove that Pakistan is a fascist state. And how he does it? By linking to another idiot’s article that is out to prove that the US is a Fascist government.
12/14 of those would apply to most of the govts in the world. Why? Because the whole purpose of the article by Laurence W. Britt is to discuss “a future America dominated by right-wing extremists”
Why Ahole wants to use Laurence Britt and not
This article “What Is Facism?” by: Roger D. Griffin, BA, Ph.D. Professor, Department of History,
Oxford Brookes University. Which is only the second link if you search fascism on Google?
OR
And what about this article by another scholar

A-hole is basically a dishonest and intellectually bankrupt person. People burning with hate and malice would attempt to find anything that is remotely connected to their cause. Another form of fundamentalism and fascism.

#62
SR,
In your zeal to prove something that is not there, you are quoting attributes that have been generalized to fit a particular point of view and may not be of significant value in this debate. I recommend you read at least two articles that I have linked above and better still if you pay attention to corporate sponsors of the known fascist regimes of the 20th century.

SR #62

A slightly enlarged 14-point list of common characterisitics of fascist regimes, and a more extended discussion, can be can be found here:

Fascism Anyone?

From everything I’ve read Pakistan appears to conform to the 12/14-point description of a fascist state far more closely than any other I know of.

In any case, simply presenting a long laundry list of common characteristics of fascist regimes seems methodologically unsatisfactory without an explanation for why this set of characteristics recurs in regimes all over the globe. One possibility could be conscious imitiation of the four original Fascist regimes of Europe (Mussolini’s Italy, Hitler’s Germany, Salazar’s Portugal, Franco’s Spain). This probably occurs to an extent.

It is likely though that a much smaller number of factors is generative of the common attributes of a fascist regime. My candidate for the ideological generative principle is: the notion that human individuals are, or should be, primarily defined and circumscribed by a single characteristic – typically ‘race’, or religion, or nationality – and that they cannot or should not exist except to glorify this characteristic. The development of a full-blown fascist regime might require the presence of other factors – perhaps, a burgeoning lower middle-class of industrial workers – but I strongly suspect that the anti-individualistic principle is the ideological sine qua non.

SR: There is certainly a tendancy, to greater or lesser extents, in the Bush administration to some of these things. As there is not one political party on earth, nor one human society, nor one human being, who can claim to be completely free from these vices. Chowk is littered with examples of nationalism and scapegoating, for example. So, to provide a list of human vices and associate them with Bush may be emotionally satisfying, but as I said it lies in the realm of lesser individuals than you.

The term ``fascist`` itself (as you probably know) means nothing more than a collection of sticks - representing strength in unity (since while a single stick may be easily broken, a collection of sticks is very hard to break) and was a symbol used in ancient Rome. It was adopted by Mussolini, and is most closely associated with the forms of power in Italy and Germany - namely, supremacy of the state with individual rights being totally subservient to the supposed ``greater good``.

Common sense and an ounce of intellectual honesty tells us that US form of government is a shining example that the rest of humanity has accepted. The opposite of everything fascism stands for.

Re: # 60 vivek

Thank you for the agreement, but on the fascist issue, please refer to response to Ahmed sahib.

...SR

Re: # 58

Mr. T, (or should I say ``T. Rex``)

Hope is all we`ve got... without hope life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.

...SR

Re: # 59

Ahmed sahib, you are an educated man so I`ll try to appeal to your intellect. Fascism is a very commonly misunderstood term. Actually the definition of fascism is not one that is etched in stone. However, the basic traits that are generally seen as the hallmarks of a fascist system are the following:

Strong Nationalism or nationalist chauvinism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Identification of Enemies / Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Governmant are intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government`s policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability.

Obssession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Supression of Labor: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Manipulation of Mass Media: Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly manipulated by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

Irregularity in National Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


Based the above one would tend to conclude that the USSA (along with several other countries like Israel, Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc, etc, etc...) meets MOST if not ALL of the above outlined fascist criteria. It is not this or that adminsitration that is the real problem, it is the fundamental corruption of the system that began earlier in the last century after the war and got a strong foot-hold by the 1970s, got well-entrenched by the 1980s, fully estblished by the 1990s and completely solidified after 2000.

Now you seem to suggest that because a certain government is elected therefore it cannot be fascistic. Please recall that both Hitler and Mussolini were originally elected by their respective people.

best regards

...SR

vivek: Please dont say I said something unless you can cut and paste what I wrote. Dont waste time claiming I said something if you ``remember right``. I think the BJP philosophy is a despicable one, but I dont go around throwing pseudo-intellectual labels like the some chowk posters do.

SR,
Agreed with you that this govt.`s policies are not the best but they are not fascists.

tahmed,
The BJP was elected to power too, but if I remember right, you did call them fascist in one of your posts.