Thus Fare Fake Democracies
Shafqat Mahmood May 11, 2005
#59 Posted by tahmed32 on May 14, 2005 5:21:01 pm
SR: You may disagree with the policies of the Bush government - but as you should know, it has been elected through due process, and so cannot be called a fascist regime.
You are too intelligent to throw around terms carelessly - leave that for lesser people than you.
You are too intelligent to throw around terms carelessly - leave that for lesser people than you.
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#58 Posted by temporal on May 14, 2005 4:31:19 pm
SR:
re: #57
hope is alive!l...
and when she is lit, dark clouds can only linger and pass-by...they cannot extinguish it...they do not carry the moisture nor the thunder to extinguish hope...
god bless!
t
re: #57
hope is alive!l...
and when she is lit, dark clouds can only linger and pass-by...they cannot extinguish it...they do not carry the moisture nor the thunder to extinguish hope...
god bless!
t
#57 Posted by SR on May 14, 2005 2:44:06 pm
Urstruly
No need to justify your passive support to the atrocities, injustices and imorality of your new Masters. Most of us will not hold it against you. We know you think that you don`t have a choice... They will put you in jail if you take a moral stand. It is quite humbling isn`t it? I mean to realize that it is a lot easier to rant and rave about our principles than to live by them. Sure, we`d all like to be saints and take the consequences of our convictions, but that can get painful. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That is what I meant when I said ``you have been assimilated... resistance is futile``...
I do not claim to be any better, but I`ve voted with my feet, not once but twice in my life. When I left Pakiland, it was as a dessenter... it cost me dearly at the time. But I left because I was disgusted... up to my eyeballs with the ultra-primitive minded Neanderthals who would run my life had I stayed back. It was an ideological divorce and I`ve never looked back. At the time I came to an America that had already changed from the one I had hoped to have moved to. As I wrote earlier, I am an uncompromising individualist and my ideological leaning was pro-Jeffersonian. After 2000 we realized that America was a ``Paradise Lost`` and I had to take my family and leave. Mind you I consider myself a true American (by choice) and one who is committed to the principles of Liberty as originally intended in the Declaration of Independence. My wife is American and comes from a southern family with a long military tradition (Patton). We, along with many others in her family, all loyal Americans, believe that the country has been hijacked by the fascists who have destroyed the true American spirit and corrupted the values that America stands for. That is why we are hated the world over. It was an ethical choice ... I call it ``Hijrat``...
While you were busy expounding the virtues of Al Qaida on the one hand and faithfully paying your taxes to Uncle Sam, thus enabling the neo-cons to further their evil agenda, I was disgruntled and planned to quit being a part of the system that I considered fundamentally unjust, exploitative and fascistic. Since you brought it up let me fill you in further.
After having taken two bus loads of protesters, at considerable expense, twelve hundred miles to Washington DC, and participated in anti-war demonstrations, promoted a nation-wide tax-revolt movement, being harassed by the Feds and been an anti-war tax protester since after 1991, we decided, with a heavy heart, to go into self-imposed exile and abandon living in the US. This has come at an enormous personal, emotional, financial and social expense. But we did it because we felt compelled.
So, no, we don`t live in a geo-dome. We do however live our lives in austere simplicity and shun the trappings of consumerism as far as reasonably possible. We do not keep a TV (or play station, x-box etc) in our house because of the children and do not subscribe to main stream news papers either. We try to minimize these corrupting influences as much as possible. Our children attend a rural Waldorf school where Mickey Mouse is not allowed and pottery, wood work, gardening, musical instruments and foreign languages are an integral part of the syllabus. But we are not anti-technology luddites either. My main source of outside information is the internet and Ham Radio. I also get several subscribed publications. I know of several brave and patriotic Americans who are keeping the struggle against the fascists alive back home. They are all waiting and preparing for the Second American Revolution, when the Jeffersonian ideals will be restored and the fascists will be defeated.
Before you go on extolling the virtues of the ummah, please remember that there are many, many genuine Americans (white, black, brown and yellow) who have nothing to do with the present fascist empire and who are paying a far bigger personal price resisting it on grounds of principle than the hypocritical fat muslims of Detroit and Houston who comfortably drive their SUVs to the mosque, bad mouth America and go pay their taxes to the fascist state religiously.
It is much easier to talk about our principles than to live by them.
Best wishes,
...SR
No need to justify your passive support to the atrocities, injustices and imorality of your new Masters. Most of us will not hold it against you. We know you think that you don`t have a choice... They will put you in jail if you take a moral stand. It is quite humbling isn`t it? I mean to realize that it is a lot easier to rant and rave about our principles than to live by them. Sure, we`d all like to be saints and take the consequences of our convictions, but that can get painful. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That is what I meant when I said ``you have been assimilated... resistance is futile``...
I do not claim to be any better, but I`ve voted with my feet, not once but twice in my life. When I left Pakiland, it was as a dessenter... it cost me dearly at the time. But I left because I was disgusted... up to my eyeballs with the ultra-primitive minded Neanderthals who would run my life had I stayed back. It was an ideological divorce and I`ve never looked back. At the time I came to an America that had already changed from the one I had hoped to have moved to. As I wrote earlier, I am an uncompromising individualist and my ideological leaning was pro-Jeffersonian. After 2000 we realized that America was a ``Paradise Lost`` and I had to take my family and leave. Mind you I consider myself a true American (by choice) and one who is committed to the principles of Liberty as originally intended in the Declaration of Independence. My wife is American and comes from a southern family with a long military tradition (Patton). We, along with many others in her family, all loyal Americans, believe that the country has been hijacked by the fascists who have destroyed the true American spirit and corrupted the values that America stands for. That is why we are hated the world over. It was an ethical choice ... I call it ``Hijrat``...
While you were busy expounding the virtues of Al Qaida on the one hand and faithfully paying your taxes to Uncle Sam, thus enabling the neo-cons to further their evil agenda, I was disgruntled and planned to quit being a part of the system that I considered fundamentally unjust, exploitative and fascistic. Since you brought it up let me fill you in further.
After having taken two bus loads of protesters, at considerable expense, twelve hundred miles to Washington DC, and participated in anti-war demonstrations, promoted a nation-wide tax-revolt movement, being harassed by the Feds and been an anti-war tax protester since after 1991, we decided, with a heavy heart, to go into self-imposed exile and abandon living in the US. This has come at an enormous personal, emotional, financial and social expense. But we did it because we felt compelled.
So, no, we don`t live in a geo-dome. We do however live our lives in austere simplicity and shun the trappings of consumerism as far as reasonably possible. We do not keep a TV (or play station, x-box etc) in our house because of the children and do not subscribe to main stream news papers either. We try to minimize these corrupting influences as much as possible. Our children attend a rural Waldorf school where Mickey Mouse is not allowed and pottery, wood work, gardening, musical instruments and foreign languages are an integral part of the syllabus. But we are not anti-technology luddites either. My main source of outside information is the internet and Ham Radio. I also get several subscribed publications. I know of several brave and patriotic Americans who are keeping the struggle against the fascists alive back home. They are all waiting and preparing for the Second American Revolution, when the Jeffersonian ideals will be restored and the fascists will be defeated.
Before you go on extolling the virtues of the ummah, please remember that there are many, many genuine Americans (white, black, brown and yellow) who have nothing to do with the present fascist empire and who are paying a far bigger personal price resisting it on grounds of principle than the hypocritical fat muslims of Detroit and Houston who comfortably drive their SUVs to the mosque, bad mouth America and go pay their taxes to the fascist state religiously.
It is much easier to talk about our principles than to live by them.
Best wishes,
...SR
#56 Posted by Zakkk on May 14, 2005 2:13:09 pm
Re: # 54 Considering what happened during Qayyum Khans time in the Frontier ..I think authoritarian is an acceptable term..I do understand the reasoning for it ..but that doesn`t change the fact it was authoritarian
#55 Posted by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 2:00:52 pm
WASHINGTON TIMES APOLOGIZES TO PAKISTAN - and replaces the head of dog with that of the real dog.
#54 Posted by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 1:53:34 pm
Re: # 52
Zakk
Please don`t fall for this myth that Jinnah was authroritarian or worse, a dictator, which is created by fauji establishment. Keep in mind that Quaid-e-Azam fired Pakistan`s first Commander-in-Chief General Gracey for refusing to support Jihad in Kashmir. NaPak fauj, the reminiscent of British raj and legacy has never forgotten that.
Zakk
Please don`t fall for this myth that Jinnah was authroritarian or worse, a dictator, which is created by fauji establishment. Keep in mind that Quaid-e-Azam fired Pakistan`s first Commander-in-Chief General Gracey for refusing to support Jihad in Kashmir. NaPak fauj, the reminiscent of British raj and legacy has never forgotten that.
#53 Posted by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 1:49:14 pm
Re: # 51
My family lives in a geodome in pakistan and keeps contact with outside world thru finance pages in newspapers and garbage collectors.
My family lives in a geodome in pakistan and keeps contact with outside world thru finance pages in newspapers and garbage collectors.
#52 Posted by Zakkk on May 14, 2005 12:45:54 pm
Re: # 49 Interesting point of view Harish..
While I agree with you Jinnah was during his brief tenure authoritarian..The reasoning is straight forward the Muslim League did not exist in most of the areas of Pakistan as a proper grass roots political party
The reality is Democracy can only grow if you have institutional stability..the components of institutional stability are simple..a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual..a peaceful transition of power and an ability to cohabit with opposing groups.
This was achieved in an Indian context by two events, the death of Nehru and the transfer of power to Shastri, the defeat of Indira Gandhi and her acceptence of the election results.
In Pakistan these events have never properly happened..every electio defeat for a major or minor party in power was subsequet to a dismissal of dubious validity followed by an election of a doubtful nature. These mistakes have been repeated once again by Musharraf although to a lesser extent...while he was willing to accept the MMA coming into power in Frontier and Baluchistan he was not willing to do the same in Sind where the PPP was the largest party..in a Democracy you have to be willing to follow the rule of law even if the consequences are unpleasant..Musharraf has not..and will not do that..one is perhaps the trapping of power which corrupts as we know absolutely..the other is no matter what amendment he puts in..the fear of being punished by his successor (whether Fauji or Politico) is always there...
While I agree with you Jinnah was during his brief tenure authoritarian..The reasoning is straight forward the Muslim League did not exist in most of the areas of Pakistan as a proper grass roots political party
The reality is Democracy can only grow if you have institutional stability..the components of institutional stability are simple..a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual..a peaceful transition of power and an ability to cohabit with opposing groups.
This was achieved in an Indian context by two events, the death of Nehru and the transfer of power to Shastri, the defeat of Indira Gandhi and her acceptence of the election results.
In Pakistan these events have never properly happened..every electio defeat for a major or minor party in power was subsequet to a dismissal of dubious validity followed by an election of a doubtful nature. These mistakes have been repeated once again by Musharraf although to a lesser extent...while he was willing to accept the MMA coming into power in Frontier and Baluchistan he was not willing to do the same in Sind where the PPP was the largest party..in a Democracy you have to be willing to follow the rule of law even if the consequences are unpleasant..Musharraf has not..and will not do that..one is perhaps the trapping of power which corrupts as we know absolutely..the other is no matter what amendment he puts in..the fear of being punished by his successor (whether Fauji or Politico) is always there...
#51 Posted by arjun_m on May 14, 2005 12:14:07 pm
#50 by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 11:31am PT
I, for example, take solace in the fact that the amount of money I make here or even that I send ourside
what makes you think the money you`re sending back to pakiland isn`t being used by the na-pak faujis to bomb your jihadi brothers in the tribal areas?
I, for example, take solace in the fact that the amount of money I make here or even that I send ourside
what makes you think the money you`re sending back to pakiland isn`t being used by the na-pak faujis to bomb your jihadi brothers in the tribal areas?
#50 Posted by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 11:31:43 am
Re: # 45 SR
I find it hard to beleive that you live inside a geo-dome, where your only contact with the outside world is through the finacial pages of the daily newspaper. But anyway we create our own world in our mind around us - all of us. I, for example, take solace in the fact that the amount of money I make here or even that I send ourside far exceeds that of which I return back into the system as my taxes. The money that I make was my money anyway which they plundered thru their corporations and other means, so I take back what was already mine.
#49 Posted by harish_hyd on May 14, 2005 12:08:20 am
#23 by Zakkk
I pretty much agree with your analysis. But the tide started turning against democracy in Pakistan when it was still in its infancy. I`ve read Jinnah himself was an autocrat who would brook no dissent. The other Paki leaders were so much in awe of him that they ceded their democratic right to question and dissent. This set a bad precedent at the very beginning of Pakistan`s existence. Then came the army coup, and the rest as they say is history. Zia was just another name in the list of leaders who thought they were the best Pakistan could hope for.
The only individual who I feel can restore Pakistan to democracy is Musharraf. Despite his obvious failures in bringing back a modicum of sanity into Pakistan`s law and order situation and the political musical chairs being played out in Islamabad, I say this because after a very long period (after Zia) in Pakistan`s history, he is the man who has demonstrated the ability to lead his country, even though this has been forced by the fortuitious circumstances Pakistan finds itself in, post 9/11. Agreed that his decision to side with the US in the war on terror has not gone down too well with the public and sections in the Army and ISI as well, but at least it hasn`t threatened to dethrone him, unlike other dispensations that would have incurred the Army`s wrath after such a radical departure from a time-worn policy. Also, he is not a fundamentalist like Zia, which means he is less likely to pander to the Mullahs and turn Pakistan into a Saudi-style theocracy. Even here, some may accuse him of trying to appease the Mullahs on the passport issue, but for the Mullahs, this can only be termed a pyrrhic victory at best since on substantial issues like foreign policy which is the key to improving Pakistan`s image, they haven`t been able to force Musharraf`s hand. If only Musharraf weren`t so interested in perpetuating his rule, things could be so much better for Pakistan.
I pretty much agree with your analysis. But the tide started turning against democracy in Pakistan when it was still in its infancy. I`ve read Jinnah himself was an autocrat who would brook no dissent. The other Paki leaders were so much in awe of him that they ceded their democratic right to question and dissent. This set a bad precedent at the very beginning of Pakistan`s existence. Then came the army coup, and the rest as they say is history. Zia was just another name in the list of leaders who thought they were the best Pakistan could hope for.
The only individual who I feel can restore Pakistan to democracy is Musharraf. Despite his obvious failures in bringing back a modicum of sanity into Pakistan`s law and order situation and the political musical chairs being played out in Islamabad, I say this because after a very long period (after Zia) in Pakistan`s history, he is the man who has demonstrated the ability to lead his country, even though this has been forced by the fortuitious circumstances Pakistan finds itself in, post 9/11. Agreed that his decision to side with the US in the war on terror has not gone down too well with the public and sections in the Army and ISI as well, but at least it hasn`t threatened to dethrone him, unlike other dispensations that would have incurred the Army`s wrath after such a radical departure from a time-worn policy. Also, he is not a fundamentalist like Zia, which means he is less likely to pander to the Mullahs and turn Pakistan into a Saudi-style theocracy. Even here, some may accuse him of trying to appease the Mullahs on the passport issue, but for the Mullahs, this can only be termed a pyrrhic victory at best since on substantial issues like foreign policy which is the key to improving Pakistan`s image, they haven`t been able to force Musharraf`s hand. If only Musharraf weren`t so interested in perpetuating his rule, things could be so much better for Pakistan.
#48 Posted by tahmed32 on May 13, 2005 11:21:20 pm
The latest chowk windmill that Don Quixote (aka Urstruly) and Sancho Panza (aka SR) attack: the dreaded Borg Corporation!! John Grisham`s thriller of the same name comes out this summer. So to be made into a movie!!!
#47 Posted by Faruk on May 13, 2005 5:17:31 pm
Re: SR # 45
“Yes we do stand at opposite ends... You lend support to the ``Borg`` machinery with your tax contributions, and are thus, by your choice, a passive accomplice in their atrocities... You have been assimilated... Resistance is futile.”
Wow! You sure know how to hit where it hurts… That was a deep cut man!
Regards,
Faruk
“Yes we do stand at opposite ends... You lend support to the ``Borg`` machinery with your tax contributions, and are thus, by your choice, a passive accomplice in their atrocities... You have been assimilated... Resistance is futile.”
Wow! You sure know how to hit where it hurts… That was a deep cut man!
Regards,
Faruk
#45 Posted by SR on May 13, 2005 4:35:35 pm
Re: # 40 {``...a question about our perceptions of these two... we ... live in a borg world... practically, every minute .... our perception ...of Klingons ... formed by ... Borg propaganda ... Klingons [can`t] ...reach the masses, the way the Borgs can. ...Borg ... [pretend] virtue and morality ... we [don`t] ... buy this ... propaganda. but we do buy their bad propaganda about Klingons. ... is... our perception ...marred with our ... prejudices ... if it is then we ourselves are denying us the truth...``}
Please speak for yourself...
I neither own a TV set nor read any of the main stream newspapers (except Financial Sections) ... So my perception of the Klingons does not come filtered through the Borg prisms. I have seen, known, travelled amongst, lived with, and broken bread with the Klingons as well as the Borg. My perceptions are based on first hand impressions gathered over a life-time.
(...you and me for example, we stand on the opposite sides of the spectrum...);
Yes we do stand at opposite ends... You lend support to the ``Borg`` machinery with your tax contributions, and are thus, by your choice, a passive accomplice in their atrocities... You have been assimilated... Resistance is futile.
...SR
Please speak for yourself...
I neither own a TV set nor read any of the main stream newspapers (except Financial Sections) ... So my perception of the Klingons does not come filtered through the Borg prisms. I have seen, known, travelled amongst, lived with, and broken bread with the Klingons as well as the Borg. My perceptions are based on first hand impressions gathered over a life-time.
(...you and me for example, we stand on the opposite sides of the spectrum...);
Yes we do stand at opposite ends... You lend support to the ``Borg`` machinery with your tax contributions, and are thus, by your choice, a passive accomplice in their atrocities... You have been assimilated... Resistance is futile.
...SR
#44 Posted by malikjahanzeb on May 13, 2005 4:04:31 pm
Re: # 38 SR, that was one good piece of pattren finding. This new born corporate being is really intimidating..
Interestingly, this is a lifeform drastically different from previous evolutionary products. This one lives as a union of interests of a large group of people. Doesn`t have a body but sure has a vicous soul. Dies of same causes as poeple (natural selection) but doesn`t abide by the natural age limits. One shocking thing is that it comes in drastically different sizes and mights.
We should talk more about this new life form ....
Interestingly, this is a lifeform drastically different from previous evolutionary products. This one lives as a union of interests of a large group of people. Doesn`t have a body but sure has a vicous soul. Dies of same causes as poeple (natural selection) but doesn`t abide by the natural age limits. One shocking thing is that it comes in drastically different sizes and mights.
We should talk more about this new life form ....
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