Thus Fare Fake Democracies

It is time to contribute towards the stability of our country. Thank God army has been there for Pakistan. Otherwise we would be no better than Malakand under Sufi Mohammad, or worse yet, Somalia under Farah Aideed. Our history is unique and so do our present. Here is something that may help explain the state of Pakistan.

http://longlivepakistan.blogspot.com/2005/06/mistri-munshi-and-sipahi.html

HP # 67

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
Both India and Pakistan have nationalism. Pakistanis have been more nationalistic over their history.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
Thanks to democratic framework India has a better record in this area.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
To varying degrees both India and Pakistan scapegoat each other.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
Pakistan is a big culprit here.

5. Rampant sexism.
India is better off here than Pakistan

6. A controlled mass media.
There is more media management in Pakistan than India.

7. Obsession with national security.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Ignoring the BJP Indian political elite have little to do with religion. Practically every mainstream Pakistani political party have deals with the mullahs.

9. Power of corporations protected.
India is probably more of a corporate state than Pakistan. This is a reflection of the under-development in Pakistan. Pakistani military has more corporations than the Indian military.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
If you are under-developed it is hard to have an organized labor.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
For reasons I cannot fathom Pakistan seems to have a problem.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
Pakistani state is incapable of enforcing its writ in most parts of the country.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Both states have this problem

14. Fraudulent elections.
Pakistan is again a culprit in this regard.

#87 by anokhi

[wasn`t a Tamil politician arrested under POTA for supporting the LTTE?]

Yep, the guy`s name is Vaiko, but when the POTA was repealed, he had to be released. The man is a known rabble-rouser, and as is the case with mischief makers everywhere, they like to latch on to contentious issues to garner support. He failed miserably when the Tamils in TN didn`t respond as enthusiastically to the LTTE`s cause as he had hoped.

sadly, pbr drinking anarchists and green party crowd in general is so on the fringe here and the way this admin. is moving with their crazy god-obsessed agenda tied up with all the jingoistic symbols and rhetoric - there is no sign on the horizon that these fundos could be stopped in the near future. someone put it very aptly : ``we are stuck in a republican movie and there is no way out of it``.

Thanks SR,

I have read many of your enlightening posts and have some idea about your political and intellectual leanings.
The last fascist regime went out of business in the 70s (Franco of Spain). After that, even the last brutal dictatorship, Gen. Pinochet’s regime in Argentine would not qualify as a fascist regime. Therefore, the propensity to disagree on the definition of Fascism is very much there.
In the 70s, the left wing ideologues put togather the basic ingredients of the German Fascism and attempted to use that to show that the US is a potential fascist regime. The German fascism had strong support of the finance capital and the Arms manufacturing business. Since the 50s, these two branches of the US capitalist system have certainly become the prominent sponsors of the all US governments. This is also true that both Finance capital and the arms industry impact the US foreign policy decision and for that reason alone the left wing was able to sell the idea that the US is potentially a fascist regime.
However, the most important question that left wing ideologues neglected to mention in their thesis was the entirely different make up of the US system and basically a lack of grievance among the general public that actually gave rise to fascism in both Germany and Italy. The ultra nationalism that led to fascism in Germany and to some extent in Italy is not there in the US. Another important point is that the UK and the US are the only two uninterrupted democracies in the last two hundred or more years. Both countries have also not suffered any catastrophic defeats in the last two hundred years. Therefore, ultra nationalism based on revenge and national revival is pretty much out of question in the US.
The religious right in the US does not have fascist tendencies and in fact is willing to take politically hits without resorting to violence.
Would like to continue but got to go now. Will continue later or if I hear more from you on the subject.
Thanks.

SR #75 I think the US is neither Paradise Lost nor Paradise Regained. Rather, it is Paradise-Work-in-Progress. Let me explain:

As you correctly point out, the US was founded based on certain ideals. US history has been a struggle to move ever closer towards this ideal - the Civil War, World War II, the Civil Rights Movement, the Cold War were all steps that has taken the US closer to these ideals.

And now, the rest of the world is jumping onto the Paradise Bandwagon by following in US footsteps - as the Europeans did with the French Revolution in the 18th century, and as the Chinese and Indians are doing now. Many in the muslim world still dont get it - but then, there are always slow-learners and dummies in any class, and mullahs and their followers in the muslim world are the class dummies of the world today. The US has shown a practical path to a better way to live one`s life.

btw, the US struggle for an ideal society is not unique. It is simply by far has proved the most successful over the past two centuries. Mankind has dreamt of an ideal society for thousands of years - Plato`s Republic (essentially an philosopher-aristocracy), to Thomas Moore`s Utopia (common ownership of property), to the utopia of Francis Bacon, to Nazi and Japanese utopia where they (conveniently the ``ruling race``) would kill or enslave the``lesser`` races, to the communist dictatorship of the proletariat, to the anarchists, to the utopia of an Islamic State (dictatorship of the mullahs).

In this struggle of competing visions, the US has emerged the victor time and time again - it has won all the major battles, and germans and japanese are fully on board. So, I think you need to re-consider whether the US Paradise Lost, or (as I think is quite clear) is in fact work in progress towards a utopian ideal that has by now won the world over to its side (except for a few flea bitten bearded men hiding in caves, still clinging to the vision of a Mullah State).

#76
``You, however, seem to have reached a different conclusion.``

For the simple reason that A-hole has an agenda and he has to stretch everything to fit that agenda. I call him A-hole for some reason. And this A-hole wanted to prove that he knew where SR read those 14 points and posted them here w/o reference.

Those fourteen points by that idiot have been developed to show that the US is a Fascist state. If the US is a fascist state, then every country including India and China are fascist countries.
The conservative in the US have more political influence because generally conservatism appeals to the people. It could be years of propaganda or a good portion of the country is dominated by religious thoughts. The Dems never got power in the country w/o the south and now the Republicans have control over them. It is a political shift and does not prove that the US is a fascist state. That is lots of bull and people buying such fake ideologists are adding to their own pessimism.

urstruly: I used to have a pet dog - he was smarter than you. :-)
Also, he could beat you in a pissing contest anyday. :-)

#73

“A-Hole usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it”

Like that idiot A-hole has some earth shattering, chaos in the universe type of info about Pakistan that nobody else have. A-hole is a plain and simple idiot and your support affirms that.

#71

``Now just go and check up what Alephnull is``

I know what he is: a crazy bum! and an A-hole on top. Why you keep on insisting?

#67 by HP on May 15, 2005 2:13pm PT

I see you`ve moved up in the evolutionary chain....you can now use google...careful though...it might reveal things that are uncomfortable for the citizens of the paki echo-chamber of self-delusion to accept....

Re: # 70 dotty

Never mind HP :) He is just performing his post kick-in-the-nut monkey dance routine ......
Alephnull usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it - so they jump up and down and howl obescenities at him, just like HP is doing now. I am sure other pakis [like closet-mullah32] will soon follow suit.

Re: # 52

``a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual``

That is how Hinduism is. So for India, democracry was not too difficult to digest and adopt.

#66

Now this stupid bum A-hole shows up to prove that Pakistan is a fascist state. And how he does it? By linking to another idiot’s article that is out to prove that the US is a Fascist government.
12/14 of those would apply to most of the govts in the world. Why? Because the whole purpose of the article by Laurence W. Britt is to discuss “a future America dominated by right-wing extremists”
Why Ahole wants to use Laurence Britt and not
This article “What Is Facism?” by: Roger D. Griffin, BA, Ph.D. Professor, Department of History,
Oxford Brookes University. Which is only the second link if you search fascism on Google?
OR
And what about this article by another scholar

A-hole is basically a dishonest and intellectually bankrupt person. People burning with hate and malice would attempt to find anything that is remotely connected to their cause. Another form of fundamentalism and fascism.

#62
SR,
In your zeal to prove something that is not there, you are quoting attributes that have been generalized to fit a particular point of view and may not be of significant value in this debate. I recommend you read at least two articles that I have linked above and better still if you pay attention to corporate sponsors of the known fascist regimes of the 20th century.

Re: # 67 {``...In your zeal to prove something that is not there, you are quoting attributes that have been generalized to fit a particular point of view and may not be of significant value in this debate. I recommend you read at least two articles that I have linked above and better still if you pay attention to corporate sponsors of the known fascist regimes of the 20th century. ...``}

HP:

Thanks for giving the links of two very good pieces on the subject of fascism.

Here is a quote from the second link you provided:

Generic fascism has its critics, some of whom deny that the concept has any validity. To them, fascism is the creation of historians` loose thinking. They insist that each authoritarian regime was separate and unique. In Italy the Fascists came to power and in Germany the Nazis, while elsewhere there was a variety of monarchical and military dictatorships which were all different. Very few parties, they argue, actually called themselves fascist, and most authoritarian regimes - for instance in Spain, Hungary and Poland - were buttressed ideologically not by any new anti-positivist ideology but by old-fashioned Catholicism. Furthermore, most of these regimes were actually opposed by small fascist-like parties, often on Mussolini`s payroll. To apply to them the common label `fascist` is, therefore, to assert a similarity where, in reality, there were only differences.

The above supports what you seem to be saying about my assertion (the contemporary USSA has fascist leanings), and if that is what you believe then we do have a divergent viewpoint.

However, the first article you linked says the following:

Beginning in the 1970s, some historians and political scientists began to develop a broader definition of fascism, and by the 1990s many scholars had embraced this approach. This new approach emphasizes the ways in which fascist movements attempt revolutionary change and their central focus on popularizing myths of national ... renewal. Seen from this perspective, all forms of fascism have three common features: anticonservatism, a myth of ... national renewal, and a conception of a nation in crisis.

This above statement seems to reflect the kind of approach I am taking. So ultimately it all boils down to semantics. Be that as it may, we`ve all expressed our points of view and no one is likely to change anyone else`s mind.

Regards

...SR

Re: # 67

The problem HP is that you do not have any concept of Alephnull. If you did you would immediately recognise that what you said can be immediately applied to what you said....

Now just go and check up what Alephnull is, then along the way other aleph`s and then Cantor on to the end