Thus Fare Fake Democracies
Shafqat Mahmood May 11, 2005
#68 Posted by hamidm2 on May 15, 2005 5:33:49 pm
Re: # 57
sr,
wow !!!!........... do you also sew your own jesus sandals and live on lentils and rice ?? ....... sorry - i just had to say that .......
......... but, sir, you are a much better man than the munafiq urstruly ........
sr,
wow !!!!........... do you also sew your own jesus sandals and live on lentils and rice ?? ....... sorry - i just had to say that .......
......... but, sir, you are a much better man than the munafiq urstruly ........
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#83 Posted by SR on May 17, 2005 10:52:02 am
Re: # 68
Hamid sahib,
Since you asked, I`ll clue you in. Yes, we do eat a good bit rice and lentils (daal chawal), brown rice at that. The lentils, veggies and whole grain flour come from the co-op, all organic, of course. As for basil, parsley, mint and other herbs, they come from the green house in the back yard. I don`t sew my sandles, however, the quilts, stockings and other woolies are all done by the kids` mother and grandmother. We did, unfortunately, stoop low and sccumb to the hedonistic temptation of having central heating in our little country cottage, but I suppliment it all by chopping my own wood for the cast iron pot-bellied wood burning stove. Its keeps the fossil fuel use to a minimum plus the exercise is good for my heart. I wanted to use cow dung patties also, but the Mrs. put her foot down. The walk from the barnyard is a long one, besides she has a more sensitive nose than me. Moreover, the barn keeper told us that in this country Her Majesty`s agricultural inspectors do not look kindly upon cow dung patties as alternate heating resource. What an absolute scandal -- such a criminal waste of natural resource. But one must choose one`s battles carefully, so I relented. I`ve considered solar pannels but there isn`t enough sun on this misty island to justify them. I`m looking into windmills now.
Though there are lots of horses in the neighborhood, we still employ internal combustion engines in our mode of transportation. We keep our driving to a minimum though, and drive conservatively when we do. For short trips to the village center we prefer to walk or bicycle.
This isn`t even the half of it, but I`m sure you get the picture. Next time you are in the neighborhood stop by for a taste of the local brew. My neighbor has three vats going presently.
...SR
Hamid sahib,
Since you asked, I`ll clue you in. Yes, we do eat a good bit rice and lentils (daal chawal), brown rice at that. The lentils, veggies and whole grain flour come from the co-op, all organic, of course. As for basil, parsley, mint and other herbs, they come from the green house in the back yard. I don`t sew my sandles, however, the quilts, stockings and other woolies are all done by the kids` mother and grandmother. We did, unfortunately, stoop low and sccumb to the hedonistic temptation of having central heating in our little country cottage, but I suppliment it all by chopping my own wood for the cast iron pot-bellied wood burning stove. Its keeps the fossil fuel use to a minimum plus the exercise is good for my heart. I wanted to use cow dung patties also, but the Mrs. put her foot down. The walk from the barnyard is a long one, besides she has a more sensitive nose than me. Moreover, the barn keeper told us that in this country Her Majesty`s agricultural inspectors do not look kindly upon cow dung patties as alternate heating resource. What an absolute scandal -- such a criminal waste of natural resource. But one must choose one`s battles carefully, so I relented. I`ve considered solar pannels but there isn`t enough sun on this misty island to justify them. I`m looking into windmills now.
Though there are lots of horses in the neighborhood, we still employ internal combustion engines in our mode of transportation. We keep our driving to a minimum though, and drive conservatively when we do. For short trips to the village center we prefer to walk or bicycle.
This isn`t even the half of it, but I`m sure you get the picture. Next time you are in the neighborhood stop by for a taste of the local brew. My neighbor has three vats going presently.
...SR
#55 Posted by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 2:00:52 pm
WASHINGTON TIMES APOLOGIZES TO PAKISTAN - and replaces the head of dog with that of the real dog.
#51 Posted by arjun_m on May 14, 2005 12:14:07 pm
#50 by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 11:31am PT
I, for example, take solace in the fact that the amount of money I make here or even that I send ourside
what makes you think the money you`re sending back to pakiland isn`t being used by the na-pak faujis to bomb your jihadi brothers in the tribal areas?
I, for example, take solace in the fact that the amount of money I make here or even that I send ourside
what makes you think the money you`re sending back to pakiland isn`t being used by the na-pak faujis to bomb your jihadi brothers in the tribal areas?
#53 Posted by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 1:49:14 pm
Re: # 51
My family lives in a geodome in pakistan and keeps contact with outside world thru finance pages in newspapers and garbage collectors.
My family lives in a geodome in pakistan and keeps contact with outside world thru finance pages in newspapers and garbage collectors.
#49 Posted by harish_hyd on May 14, 2005 12:08:20 am
#23 by Zakkk
I pretty much agree with your analysis. But the tide started turning against democracy in Pakistan when it was still in its infancy. I`ve read Jinnah himself was an autocrat who would brook no dissent. The other Paki leaders were so much in awe of him that they ceded their democratic right to question and dissent. This set a bad precedent at the very beginning of Pakistan`s existence. Then came the army coup, and the rest as they say is history. Zia was just another name in the list of leaders who thought they were the best Pakistan could hope for.
The only individual who I feel can restore Pakistan to democracy is Musharraf. Despite his obvious failures in bringing back a modicum of sanity into Pakistan`s law and order situation and the political musical chairs being played out in Islamabad, I say this because after a very long period (after Zia) in Pakistan`s history, he is the man who has demonstrated the ability to lead his country, even though this has been forced by the fortuitious circumstances Pakistan finds itself in, post 9/11. Agreed that his decision to side with the US in the war on terror has not gone down too well with the public and sections in the Army and ISI as well, but at least it hasn`t threatened to dethrone him, unlike other dispensations that would have incurred the Army`s wrath after such a radical departure from a time-worn policy. Also, he is not a fundamentalist like Zia, which means he is less likely to pander to the Mullahs and turn Pakistan into a Saudi-style theocracy. Even here, some may accuse him of trying to appease the Mullahs on the passport issue, but for the Mullahs, this can only be termed a pyrrhic victory at best since on substantial issues like foreign policy which is the key to improving Pakistan`s image, they haven`t been able to force Musharraf`s hand. If only Musharraf weren`t so interested in perpetuating his rule, things could be so much better for Pakistan.
I pretty much agree with your analysis. But the tide started turning against democracy in Pakistan when it was still in its infancy. I`ve read Jinnah himself was an autocrat who would brook no dissent. The other Paki leaders were so much in awe of him that they ceded their democratic right to question and dissent. This set a bad precedent at the very beginning of Pakistan`s existence. Then came the army coup, and the rest as they say is history. Zia was just another name in the list of leaders who thought they were the best Pakistan could hope for.
The only individual who I feel can restore Pakistan to democracy is Musharraf. Despite his obvious failures in bringing back a modicum of sanity into Pakistan`s law and order situation and the political musical chairs being played out in Islamabad, I say this because after a very long period (after Zia) in Pakistan`s history, he is the man who has demonstrated the ability to lead his country, even though this has been forced by the fortuitious circumstances Pakistan finds itself in, post 9/11. Agreed that his decision to side with the US in the war on terror has not gone down too well with the public and sections in the Army and ISI as well, but at least it hasn`t threatened to dethrone him, unlike other dispensations that would have incurred the Army`s wrath after such a radical departure from a time-worn policy. Also, he is not a fundamentalist like Zia, which means he is less likely to pander to the Mullahs and turn Pakistan into a Saudi-style theocracy. Even here, some may accuse him of trying to appease the Mullahs on the passport issue, but for the Mullahs, this can only be termed a pyrrhic victory at best since on substantial issues like foreign policy which is the key to improving Pakistan`s image, they haven`t been able to force Musharraf`s hand. If only Musharraf weren`t so interested in perpetuating his rule, things could be so much better for Pakistan.
#52 Posted by Zakkk on May 14, 2005 12:45:54 pm
Re: # 49 Interesting point of view Harish..
While I agree with you Jinnah was during his brief tenure authoritarian..The reasoning is straight forward the Muslim League did not exist in most of the areas of Pakistan as a proper grass roots political party
The reality is Democracy can only grow if you have institutional stability..the components of institutional stability are simple..a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual..a peaceful transition of power and an ability to cohabit with opposing groups.
This was achieved in an Indian context by two events, the death of Nehru and the transfer of power to Shastri, the defeat of Indira Gandhi and her acceptence of the election results.
In Pakistan these events have never properly happened..every electio defeat for a major or minor party in power was subsequet to a dismissal of dubious validity followed by an election of a doubtful nature. These mistakes have been repeated once again by Musharraf although to a lesser extent...while he was willing to accept the MMA coming into power in Frontier and Baluchistan he was not willing to do the same in Sind where the PPP was the largest party..in a Democracy you have to be willing to follow the rule of law even if the consequences are unpleasant..Musharraf has not..and will not do that..one is perhaps the trapping of power which corrupts as we know absolutely..the other is no matter what amendment he puts in..the fear of being punished by his successor (whether Fauji or Politico) is always there...
While I agree with you Jinnah was during his brief tenure authoritarian..The reasoning is straight forward the Muslim League did not exist in most of the areas of Pakistan as a proper grass roots political party
The reality is Democracy can only grow if you have institutional stability..the components of institutional stability are simple..a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual..a peaceful transition of power and an ability to cohabit with opposing groups.
This was achieved in an Indian context by two events, the death of Nehru and the transfer of power to Shastri, the defeat of Indira Gandhi and her acceptence of the election results.
In Pakistan these events have never properly happened..every electio defeat for a major or minor party in power was subsequet to a dismissal of dubious validity followed by an election of a doubtful nature. These mistakes have been repeated once again by Musharraf although to a lesser extent...while he was willing to accept the MMA coming into power in Frontier and Baluchistan he was not willing to do the same in Sind where the PPP was the largest party..in a Democracy you have to be willing to follow the rule of law even if the consequences are unpleasant..Musharraf has not..and will not do that..one is perhaps the trapping of power which corrupts as we know absolutely..the other is no matter what amendment he puts in..the fear of being punished by his successor (whether Fauji or Politico) is always there...
#54 Posted by Urstruly on May 14, 2005 1:53:34 pm
Re: # 52
Zakk
Please don`t fall for this myth that Jinnah was authroritarian or worse, a dictator, which is created by fauji establishment. Keep in mind that Quaid-e-Azam fired Pakistan`s first Commander-in-Chief General Gracey for refusing to support Jihad in Kashmir. NaPak fauj, the reminiscent of British raj and legacy has never forgotten that.
Zakk
Please don`t fall for this myth that Jinnah was authroritarian or worse, a dictator, which is created by fauji establishment. Keep in mind that Quaid-e-Azam fired Pakistan`s first Commander-in-Chief General Gracey for refusing to support Jihad in Kashmir. NaPak fauj, the reminiscent of British raj and legacy has never forgotten that.
#56 Posted by Zakkk on May 14, 2005 2:13:09 pm
Re: # 54 Considering what happened during Qayyum Khans time in the Frontier ..I think authoritarian is an acceptable term..I do understand the reasoning for it ..but that doesn`t change the fact it was authoritarian
#48 Posted by tahmed32 on May 13, 2005 11:21:20 pm
The latest chowk windmill that Don Quixote (aka Urstruly) and Sancho Panza (aka SR) attack: the dreaded Borg Corporation!! John Grisham`s thriller of the same name comes out this summer. So to be made into a movie!!!
#47 Posted by Faruk on May 13, 2005 5:17:31 pm
Re: SR # 45
“Yes we do stand at opposite ends... You lend support to the ``Borg`` machinery with your tax contributions, and are thus, by your choice, a passive accomplice in their atrocities... You have been assimilated... Resistance is futile.”
Wow! You sure know how to hit where it hurts… That was a deep cut man!
Regards,
Faruk
“Yes we do stand at opposite ends... You lend support to the ``Borg`` machinery with your tax contributions, and are thus, by your choice, a passive accomplice in their atrocities... You have been assimilated... Resistance is futile.”
Wow! You sure know how to hit where it hurts… That was a deep cut man!
Regards,
Faruk
#43 Posted by arjun_m on May 13, 2005 3:07:01 pm
#42 by Urstruly on May 13, 2005 9:13am PT
What does it tell you?
I`m don`t get it...being that it`s you, there has to be a big bad America as the root of all evil angle to all this....but what exactly are you suggesting? That the attacks in Jalalabad were orchestrated?
What does it tell you?
I`m don`t get it...being that it`s you, there has to be a big bad America as the root of all evil angle to all this....but what exactly are you suggesting? That the attacks in Jalalabad were orchestrated?
#41 Posted by arjun_m on May 13, 2005 8:52:43 am
#38 by SR on May 13, 2005 8:07am PT
I see Alqaida as an evil force that is fighting another, more powerful evil.
In other words, America had it coming...right?
What if an Afghan, angry at what Pakistan did to his country in pursuit of it`s strategic depth wet dreams, kills 3000 paki civilians.....
Will the jihadi apologists point to the root cause? Will they make star trek analogies? Or will they just claim victimhood?
I see Alqaida as an evil force that is fighting another, more powerful evil.
In other words, America had it coming...right?
What if an Afghan, angry at what Pakistan did to his country in pursuit of it`s strategic depth wet dreams, kills 3000 paki civilians.....
Will the jihadi apologists point to the root cause? Will they make star trek analogies? Or will they just claim victimhood?
#42 Posted by Urstruly on May 13, 2005 9:13:10 am
Re: # 41
Although you forgot to include a hyperlink and GDP figures of India to support your thesis (and it falsely gives an impression that you thought all of what you wrote by yourself) but you make an interesting point.
During the 10 years of Soviet occupation of Afghanistan Pakistan has been subjected to worst of terrorism from the Afghan side. The KHAD and KGB trained terrorist killed scores of Pakistani civilians in spate of bombings in all major cities of Pakistan, which used to happen almost every week at one place or the other. Just to add insult to the injury, Iraqi, Libiyan, Syrian, and Indian (The soviet camp) were also aiding and training those terrorists . Incidently, none of those attacks happened against government or military personnel and establishments and all were directed at killing Pakistani civilians. So one can safely assume that powers that be in Afghanistan genuinly thought people of Pkaistan as their enemies. But as compared to then when Afgahnistan is under another occupation, the resistance has targeted only Pakistani officials including dictator and his rubber stamp PM, whereas I think, given the corruption in military and law enforcement establishment of Pakistan the people of Pakistan would have been the best target to exert political pressure on the junta. What does it tell you?
Although you forgot to include a hyperlink and GDP figures of India to support your thesis (and it falsely gives an impression that you thought all of what you wrote by yourself) but you make an interesting point.
During the 10 years of Soviet occupation of Afghanistan Pakistan has been subjected to worst of terrorism from the Afghan side. The KHAD and KGB trained terrorist killed scores of Pakistani civilians in spate of bombings in all major cities of Pakistan, which used to happen almost every week at one place or the other. Just to add insult to the injury, Iraqi, Libiyan, Syrian, and Indian (The soviet camp) were also aiding and training those terrorists . Incidently, none of those attacks happened against government or military personnel and establishments and all were directed at killing Pakistani civilians. So one can safely assume that powers that be in Afghanistan genuinly thought people of Pkaistan as their enemies. But as compared to then when Afgahnistan is under another occupation, the resistance has targeted only Pakistani officials including dictator and his rubber stamp PM, whereas I think, given the corruption in military and law enforcement establishment of Pakistan the people of Pakistan would have been the best target to exert political pressure on the junta. What does it tell you?
#40 Posted by Urstruly on May 13, 2005 8:36:47 am
SR
Borgs & Klingons - that is an interesting analogy.
But one can raise a question about our perceptions of these two. Basically, the way I see it, we (supposedly neutral in this conflict or at worst victims of both) practically live in a borg world. We experience good and bad of everything that Borgs have to offer, practically, every minute of our waking and sleeping hours. Even our perception (or large part of it) of Klingons has been formed by whatever the Borg propaganda machinery feeds us. Because I do not think that Klingons have the capability to reach the masses, the way the Borgs can. One can safely say that the Klingon propaganda machinery is non-existent. The interesting thing is that the Borg propaganda machinery at the same time spends more time protraying itself as a paragon of virtue and morality but we hardly buy this line of propaganda. (Consider you and me for example, we stand on the opposite sides of the spectrum yet we do not buy it); but we do buy their bad propaganda about Klingons. So the question is, whether our perception of either is marred with our own personal prejudices or not. Because if it is then we ourselves are denying us the truth, isn`t it.
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