Thus Fare Fake Democracies

Re: # 60 vivek

Thank you for the agreement, but on the fascist issue, please refer to response to Ahmed sahib.

...SR

SR: There is certainly a tendancy, to greater or lesser extents, in the Bush administration to some of these things. As there is not one political party on earth, nor one human society, nor one human being, who can claim to be completely free from these vices. Chowk is littered with examples of nationalism and scapegoating, for example. So, to provide a list of human vices and associate them with Bush may be emotionally satisfying, but as I said it lies in the realm of lesser individuals than you.

The term ``fascist`` itself (as you probably know) means nothing more than a collection of sticks - representing strength in unity (since while a single stick may be easily broken, a collection of sticks is very hard to break) and was a symbol used in ancient Rome. It was adopted by Mussolini, and is most closely associated with the forms of power in Italy and Germany - namely, supremacy of the state with individual rights being totally subservient to the supposed ``greater good``.

Common sense and an ounce of intellectual honesty tells us that US form of government is a shining example that the rest of humanity has accepted. The opposite of everything fascism stands for.

SR #62

A slightly enlarged 14-point list of common characterisitics of fascist regimes, and a more extended discussion, can be can be found here:

Fascism Anyone?

From everything I’ve read Pakistan appears to conform to the 12/14-point description of a fascist state far more closely than any other I know of.

In any case, simply presenting a long laundry list of common characteristics of fascist regimes seems methodologically unsatisfactory without an explanation for why this set of characteristics recurs in regimes all over the globe. One possibility could be conscious imitiation of the four original Fascist regimes of Europe (Mussolini’s Italy, Hitler’s Germany, Salazar’s Portugal, Franco’s Spain). This probably occurs to an extent.

It is likely though that a much smaller number of factors is generative of the common attributes of a fascist regime. My candidate for the ideological generative principle is: the notion that human individuals are, or should be, primarily defined and circumscribed by a single characteristic – typically ‘race’, or religion, or nationality – and that they cannot or should not exist except to glorify this characteristic. The development of a full-blown fascist regime might require the presence of other factors – perhaps, a burgeoning lower middle-class of industrial workers – but I strongly suspect that the anti-individualistic principle is the ideological sine qua non.

#66

Now this stupid bum A-hole shows up to prove that Pakistan is a fascist state. And how he does it? By linking to another idiot’s article that is out to prove that the US is a Fascist government.
12/14 of those would apply to most of the govts in the world. Why? Because the whole purpose of the article by Laurence W. Britt is to discuss “a future America dominated by right-wing extremists”
Why Ahole wants to use Laurence Britt and not
This article “What Is Facism?” by: Roger D. Griffin, BA, Ph.D. Professor, Department of History,
Oxford Brookes University. Which is only the second link if you search fascism on Google?
OR
And what about this article by another scholar

A-hole is basically a dishonest and intellectually bankrupt person. People burning with hate and malice would attempt to find anything that is remotely connected to their cause. Another form of fundamentalism and fascism.

#62
SR,
In your zeal to prove something that is not there, you are quoting attributes that have been generalized to fit a particular point of view and may not be of significant value in this debate. I recommend you read at least two articles that I have linked above and better still if you pay attention to corporate sponsors of the known fascist regimes of the 20th century.

Re: # 57

sr,

wow !!!!........... do you also sew your own jesus sandals and live on lentils and rice ?? ....... sorry - i just had to say that .......

......... but, sir, you are a much better man than the munafiq urstruly ........

Re: # 52

``a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual``

That is how Hinduism is. So for India, democracry was not too difficult to digest and adopt.

#67 by HP on May 15, 2005 2:13pm PT

I see you`ve moved up in the evolutionary chain....you can now use google...careful though...it might reveal things that are uncomfortable for the citizens of the paki echo-chamber of self-delusion to accept....

Re: # 67

The problem HP is that you do not have any concept of Alephnull. If you did you would immediately recognise that what you said can be immediately applied to what you said....

Now just go and check up what Alephnull is, then along the way other aleph`s and then Cantor on to the end

#71

``Now just go and check up what Alephnull is``

I know what he is: a crazy bum! and an A-hole on top. Why you keep on insisting?

Re: # 70 dotty

Never mind HP :) He is just performing his post kick-in-the-nut monkey dance routine ......
Alephnull usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it - so they jump up and down and howl obescenities at him, just like HP is doing now. I am sure other pakis [like closet-mullah32] will soon follow suit.

#73

“A-Hole usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it”

Like that idiot A-hole has some earth shattering, chaos in the universe type of info about Pakistan that nobody else have. A-hole is a plain and simple idiot and your support affirms that.

Re: # 65 {``... US form of government is a shining example that the rest of humanity has accepted. The opposite of everything fascism stands for. ...``}

Ahmed sahib,

You are quite right in spirit and theory. I also, like millions the world over, embraced those same ideals in my youth that you defend and speak of here. I am (as surely you must be too) still committed to, and believe in those same ideals. In earlier messages I referred to them as the Jeffersonian ideals (though Jefferson was only one of those early visionary idealists who initiated this great civic experiment in human history). However, our point of departure is in our appraisal of the contemporary ground reality. In your view Eden is still alive and well. In my view the serpent has already done his dirty trick. You seem content with whatever exists and are unwilling to see that any ground has been lost, I on the other hand, lament the ``Paradise Lost``... In my humble view a modicum of ``...common sense and an ounce of intellectual honesty tells us that...`` something has gone badly amiss. You do not see it that way. That is perfectly fine. We can agree to disagree.

respectfully,

...SR

Re: # 66 Alephnull

Thank you for the Humanism page link that discusses fascism. I shall quote a line from that article as it struck a chord with me:

...fascism’s principles are wafting in the air today, surreptitiously masquerading as something else, challenging everything we stand for. The cliché that people and nations learn from history is not only overused, but also overestimated; often we fail to learn from history, or draw the wrong conclusions. Sadly, historical amnesia is the norm...

I am not sure why you quoted this particular article because having read it I feel re-affirmed in my assertions. You, however, seem to have reached a different conclusion. So be it.

Regards

...SR

Re: # 75 SR

But they think of people like you or tahmad, for example, not much more than dogs. Is that the reason you are so depressed? But being a dog sure beats being a terrorist, I reckon. resistance is futile.

urstruly: I used to have a pet dog - he was smarter than you. :-)
Also, he could beat you in a pissing contest anyday. :-)

#76
``You, however, seem to have reached a different conclusion.``

For the simple reason that A-hole has an agenda and he has to stretch everything to fit that agenda. I call him A-hole for some reason. And this A-hole wanted to prove that he knew where SR read those 14 points and posted them here w/o reference.

Those fourteen points by that idiot have been developed to show that the US is a Fascist state. If the US is a fascist state, then every country including India and China are fascist countries.
The conservative in the US have more political influence because generally conservatism appeals to the people. It could be years of propaganda or a good portion of the country is dominated by religious thoughts. The Dems never got power in the country w/o the south and now the Republicans have control over them. It is a political shift and does not prove that the US is a fascist state. That is lots of bull and people buying such fake ideologists are adding to their own pessimism.