Thus Fare Fake Democracies

Re: # 54 Considering what happened during Qayyum Khans time in the Frontier ..I think authoritarian is an acceptable term..I do understand the reasoning for it ..but that doesn`t change the fact it was authoritarian

Urstruly

No need to justify your passive support to the atrocities, injustices and imorality of your new Masters. Most of us will not hold it against you. We know you think that you don`t have a choice... They will put you in jail if you take a moral stand. It is quite humbling isn`t it? I mean to realize that it is a lot easier to rant and rave about our principles than to live by them. Sure, we`d all like to be saints and take the consequences of our convictions, but that can get painful. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. That is what I meant when I said ``you have been assimilated... resistance is futile``...

I do not claim to be any better, but I`ve voted with my feet, not once but twice in my life. When I left Pakiland, it was as a dessenter... it cost me dearly at the time. But I left because I was disgusted... up to my eyeballs with the ultra-primitive minded Neanderthals who would run my life had I stayed back. It was an ideological divorce and I`ve never looked back. At the time I came to an America that had already changed from the one I had hoped to have moved to. As I wrote earlier, I am an uncompromising individualist and my ideological leaning was pro-Jeffersonian. After 2000 we realized that America was a ``Paradise Lost`` and I had to take my family and leave. Mind you I consider myself a true American (by choice) and one who is committed to the principles of Liberty as originally intended in the Declaration of Independence. My wife is American and comes from a southern family with a long military tradition (Patton). We, along with many others in her family, all loyal Americans, believe that the country has been hijacked by the fascists who have destroyed the true American spirit and corrupted the values that America stands for. That is why we are hated the world over. It was an ethical choice ... I call it ``Hijrat``...

While you were busy expounding the virtues of Al Qaida on the one hand and faithfully paying your taxes to Uncle Sam, thus enabling the neo-cons to further their evil agenda, I was disgruntled and planned to quit being a part of the system that I considered fundamentally unjust, exploitative and fascistic. Since you brought it up let me fill you in further.

After having taken two bus loads of protesters, at considerable expense, twelve hundred miles to Washington DC, and participated in anti-war demonstrations, promoted a nation-wide tax-revolt movement, being harassed by the Feds and been an anti-war tax protester since after 1991, we decided, with a heavy heart, to go into self-imposed exile and abandon living in the US. This has come at an enormous personal, emotional, financial and social expense. But we did it because we felt compelled.

So, no, we don`t live in a geo-dome. We do however live our lives in austere simplicity and shun the trappings of consumerism as far as reasonably possible. We do not keep a TV (or play station, x-box etc) in our house because of the children and do not subscribe to main stream news papers either. We try to minimize these corrupting influences as much as possible. Our children attend a rural Waldorf school where Mickey Mouse is not allowed and pottery, wood work, gardening, musical instruments and foreign languages are an integral part of the syllabus. But we are not anti-technology luddites either. My main source of outside information is the internet and Ham Radio. I also get several subscribed publications. I know of several brave and patriotic Americans who are keeping the struggle against the fascists alive back home. They are all waiting and preparing for the Second American Revolution, when the Jeffersonian ideals will be restored and the fascists will be defeated.

Before you go on extolling the virtues of the ummah, please remember that there are many, many genuine Americans (white, black, brown and yellow) who have nothing to do with the present fascist empire and who are paying a far bigger personal price resisting it on grounds of principle than the hypocritical fat muslims of Detroit and Houston who comfortably drive their SUVs to the mosque, bad mouth America and go pay their taxes to the fascist state religiously.

It is much easier to talk about our principles than to live by them.

Best wishes,

...SR

SR:

re: #57

hope is alive!l...

and when she is lit, dark clouds can only linger and pass-by...they cannot extinguish it...they do not carry the moisture nor the thunder to extinguish hope...

god bless!

t

SR: You may disagree with the policies of the Bush government - but as you should know, it has been elected through due process, and so cannot be called a fascist regime.

You are too intelligent to throw around terms carelessly - leave that for lesser people than you.

SR,
Agreed with you that this govt.`s policies are not the best but they are not fascists.

tahmed,
The BJP was elected to power too, but if I remember right, you did call them fascist in one of your posts.

vivek: Please dont say I said something unless you can cut and paste what I wrote. Dont waste time claiming I said something if you ``remember right``. I think the BJP philosophy is a despicable one, but I dont go around throwing pseudo-intellectual labels like the some chowk posters do.

Re: # 59

Ahmed sahib, you are an educated man so I`ll try to appeal to your intellect. Fascism is a very commonly misunderstood term. Actually the definition of fascism is not one that is etched in stone. However, the basic traits that are generally seen as the hallmarks of a fascist system are the following:

Strong Nationalism or nationalist chauvinism: Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Identification of Enemies / Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of Military: Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Obsession with National Security: Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Governmant are intertwined: Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government`s policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected: The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Cronyism and Corruption: Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability.

Obssession with Crime and Punishment: Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Supression of Labor: Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

Manipulation of Mass Media: Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly manipulated by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

Irregularity in National Elections: Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.


Based the above one would tend to conclude that the USSA (along with several other countries like Israel, Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc, etc, etc...) meets MOST if not ALL of the above outlined fascist criteria. It is not this or that adminsitration that is the real problem, it is the fundamental corruption of the system that began earlier in the last century after the war and got a strong foot-hold by the 1970s, got well-entrenched by the 1980s, fully estblished by the 1990s and completely solidified after 2000.

Now you seem to suggest that because a certain government is elected therefore it cannot be fascistic. Please recall that both Hitler and Mussolini were originally elected by their respective people.

best regards

...SR

Re: # 58

Mr. T, (or should I say ``T. Rex``)

Hope is all we`ve got... without hope life is like a broken winged bird that cannot fly.

...SR

Re: # 60 vivek

Thank you for the agreement, but on the fascist issue, please refer to response to Ahmed sahib.

...SR

SR: There is certainly a tendancy, to greater or lesser extents, in the Bush administration to some of these things. As there is not one political party on earth, nor one human society, nor one human being, who can claim to be completely free from these vices. Chowk is littered with examples of nationalism and scapegoating, for example. So, to provide a list of human vices and associate them with Bush may be emotionally satisfying, but as I said it lies in the realm of lesser individuals than you.

The term ``fascist`` itself (as you probably know) means nothing more than a collection of sticks - representing strength in unity (since while a single stick may be easily broken, a collection of sticks is very hard to break) and was a symbol used in ancient Rome. It was adopted by Mussolini, and is most closely associated with the forms of power in Italy and Germany - namely, supremacy of the state with individual rights being totally subservient to the supposed ``greater good``.

Common sense and an ounce of intellectual honesty tells us that US form of government is a shining example that the rest of humanity has accepted. The opposite of everything fascism stands for.

SR #62

A slightly enlarged 14-point list of common characterisitics of fascist regimes, and a more extended discussion, can be can be found here:

Fascism Anyone?

From everything I’ve read Pakistan appears to conform to the 12/14-point description of a fascist state far more closely than any other I know of.

In any case, simply presenting a long laundry list of common characteristics of fascist regimes seems methodologically unsatisfactory without an explanation for why this set of characteristics recurs in regimes all over the globe. One possibility could be conscious imitiation of the four original Fascist regimes of Europe (Mussolini’s Italy, Hitler’s Germany, Salazar’s Portugal, Franco’s Spain). This probably occurs to an extent.

It is likely though that a much smaller number of factors is generative of the common attributes of a fascist regime. My candidate for the ideological generative principle is: the notion that human individuals are, or should be, primarily defined and circumscribed by a single characteristic – typically ‘race’, or religion, or nationality – and that they cannot or should not exist except to glorify this characteristic. The development of a full-blown fascist regime might require the presence of other factors – perhaps, a burgeoning lower middle-class of industrial workers – but I strongly suspect that the anti-individualistic principle is the ideological sine qua non.

#66

Now this stupid bum A-hole shows up to prove that Pakistan is a fascist state. And how he does it? By linking to another idiot’s article that is out to prove that the US is a Fascist government.
12/14 of those would apply to most of the govts in the world. Why? Because the whole purpose of the article by Laurence W. Britt is to discuss “a future America dominated by right-wing extremists”
Why Ahole wants to use Laurence Britt and not
This article “What Is Facism?” by: Roger D. Griffin, BA, Ph.D. Professor, Department of History,
Oxford Brookes University. Which is only the second link if you search fascism on Google?
OR
And what about this article by another scholar

A-hole is basically a dishonest and intellectually bankrupt person. People burning with hate and malice would attempt to find anything that is remotely connected to their cause. Another form of fundamentalism and fascism.

#62
SR,
In your zeal to prove something that is not there, you are quoting attributes that have been generalized to fit a particular point of view and may not be of significant value in this debate. I recommend you read at least two articles that I have linked above and better still if you pay attention to corporate sponsors of the known fascist regimes of the 20th century.

Re: # 57

sr,

wow !!!!........... do you also sew your own jesus sandals and live on lentils and rice ?? ....... sorry - i just had to say that .......

......... but, sir, you are a much better man than the munafiq urstruly ........

Re: # 52

``a non personality centric system which can exist without the individual``

That is how Hinduism is. So for India, democracry was not too difficult to digest and adopt.

#67 by HP on May 15, 2005 2:13pm PT

I see you`ve moved up in the evolutionary chain....you can now use google...careful though...it might reveal things that are uncomfortable for the citizens of the paki echo-chamber of self-delusion to accept....

Re: # 67

The problem HP is that you do not have any concept of Alephnull. If you did you would immediately recognise that what you said can be immediately applied to what you said....

Now just go and check up what Alephnull is, then along the way other aleph`s and then Cantor on to the end

#71

``Now just go and check up what Alephnull is``

I know what he is: a crazy bum! and an A-hole on top. Why you keep on insisting?

Re: # 70 dotty

Never mind HP :) He is just performing his post kick-in-the-nut monkey dance routine ......
Alephnull usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it - so they jump up and down and howl obescenities at him, just like HP is doing now. I am sure other pakis [like closet-mullah32] will soon follow suit.

#73

“A-Hole usually hits pakis where it hurts the most. Pakis can do nothing about it”

Like that idiot A-hole has some earth shattering, chaos in the universe type of info about Pakistan that nobody else have. A-hole is a plain and simple idiot and your support affirms that.

Re: # 65 {``... US form of government is a shining example that the rest of humanity has accepted. The opposite of everything fascism stands for. ...``}

Ahmed sahib,

You are quite right in spirit and theory. I also, like millions the world over, embraced those same ideals in my youth that you defend and speak of here. I am (as surely you must be too) still committed to, and believe in those same ideals. In earlier messages I referred to them as the Jeffersonian ideals (though Jefferson was only one of those early visionary idealists who initiated this great civic experiment in human history). However, our point of departure is in our appraisal of the contemporary ground reality. In your view Eden is still alive and well. In my view the serpent has already done his dirty trick. You seem content with whatever exists and are unwilling to see that any ground has been lost, I on the other hand, lament the ``Paradise Lost``... In my humble view a modicum of ``...common sense and an ounce of intellectual honesty tells us that...`` something has gone badly amiss. You do not see it that way. That is perfectly fine. We can agree to disagree.

respectfully,

...SR

Re: # 66 Alephnull

Thank you for the Humanism page link that discusses fascism. I shall quote a line from that article as it struck a chord with me:

...fascism’s principles are wafting in the air today, surreptitiously masquerading as something else, challenging everything we stand for. The cliché that people and nations learn from history is not only overused, but also overestimated; often we fail to learn from history, or draw the wrong conclusions. Sadly, historical amnesia is the norm...

I am not sure why you quoted this particular article because having read it I feel re-affirmed in my assertions. You, however, seem to have reached a different conclusion. So be it.

Regards

...SR

Re: # 75 SR

But they think of people like you or tahmad, for example, not much more than dogs. Is that the reason you are so depressed? But being a dog sure beats being a terrorist, I reckon. resistance is futile.

urstruly: I used to have a pet dog - he was smarter than you. :-)
Also, he could beat you in a pissing contest anyday. :-)

#76
``You, however, seem to have reached a different conclusion.``

For the simple reason that A-hole has an agenda and he has to stretch everything to fit that agenda. I call him A-hole for some reason. And this A-hole wanted to prove that he knew where SR read those 14 points and posted them here w/o reference.

Those fourteen points by that idiot have been developed to show that the US is a Fascist state. If the US is a fascist state, then every country including India and China are fascist countries.
The conservative in the US have more political influence because generally conservatism appeals to the people. It could be years of propaganda or a good portion of the country is dominated by religious thoughts. The Dems never got power in the country w/o the south and now the Republicans have control over them. It is a political shift and does not prove that the US is a fascist state. That is lots of bull and people buying such fake ideologists are adding to their own pessimism.

Re: # 67 {``...In your zeal to prove something that is not there, you are quoting attributes that have been generalized to fit a particular point of view and may not be of significant value in this debate. I recommend you read at least two articles that I have linked above and better still if you pay attention to corporate sponsors of the known fascist regimes of the 20th century. ...``}

HP:

Thanks for giving the links of two very good pieces on the subject of fascism.

Here is a quote from the second link you provided:

Generic fascism has its critics, some of whom deny that the concept has any validity. To them, fascism is the creation of historians` loose thinking. They insist that each authoritarian regime was separate and unique. In Italy the Fascists came to power and in Germany the Nazis, while elsewhere there was a variety of monarchical and military dictatorships which were all different. Very few parties, they argue, actually called themselves fascist, and most authoritarian regimes - for instance in Spain, Hungary and Poland - were buttressed ideologically not by any new anti-positivist ideology but by old-fashioned Catholicism. Furthermore, most of these regimes were actually opposed by small fascist-like parties, often on Mussolini`s payroll. To apply to them the common label `fascist` is, therefore, to assert a similarity where, in reality, there were only differences.

The above supports what you seem to be saying about my assertion (the contemporary USSA has fascist leanings), and if that is what you believe then we do have a divergent viewpoint.

However, the first article you linked says the following:

Beginning in the 1970s, some historians and political scientists began to develop a broader definition of fascism, and by the 1990s many scholars had embraced this approach. This new approach emphasizes the ways in which fascist movements attempt revolutionary change and their central focus on popularizing myths of national ... renewal. Seen from this perspective, all forms of fascism have three common features: anticonservatism, a myth of ... national renewal, and a conception of a nation in crisis.

This above statement seems to reflect the kind of approach I am taking. So ultimately it all boils down to semantics. Be that as it may, we`ve all expressed our points of view and no one is likely to change anyone else`s mind.

Regards

...SR

SR #75 I think the US is neither Paradise Lost nor Paradise Regained. Rather, it is Paradise-Work-in-Progress. Let me explain:

As you correctly point out, the US was founded based on certain ideals. US history has been a struggle to move ever closer towards this ideal - the Civil War, World War II, the Civil Rights Movement, the Cold War were all steps that has taken the US closer to these ideals.

And now, the rest of the world is jumping onto the Paradise Bandwagon by following in US footsteps - as the Europeans did with the French Revolution in the 18th century, and as the Chinese and Indians are doing now. Many in the muslim world still dont get it - but then, there are always slow-learners and dummies in any class, and mullahs and their followers in the muslim world are the class dummies of the world today. The US has shown a practical path to a better way to live one`s life.

btw, the US struggle for an ideal society is not unique. It is simply by far has proved the most successful over the past two centuries. Mankind has dreamt of an ideal society for thousands of years - Plato`s Republic (essentially an philosopher-aristocracy), to Thomas Moore`s Utopia (common ownership of property), to the utopia of Francis Bacon, to Nazi and Japanese utopia where they (conveniently the ``ruling race``) would kill or enslave the``lesser`` races, to the communist dictatorship of the proletariat, to the anarchists, to the utopia of an Islamic State (dictatorship of the mullahs).

In this struggle of competing visions, the US has emerged the victor time and time again - it has won all the major battles, and germans and japanese are fully on board. So, I think you need to re-consider whether the US Paradise Lost, or (as I think is quite clear) is in fact work in progress towards a utopian ideal that has by now won the world over to its side (except for a few flea bitten bearded men hiding in caves, still clinging to the vision of a Mullah State).

Thanks SR,

I have read many of your enlightening posts and have some idea about your political and intellectual leanings.
The last fascist regime went out of business in the 70s (Franco of Spain). After that, even the last brutal dictatorship, Gen. Pinochet’s regime in Argentine would not qualify as a fascist regime. Therefore, the propensity to disagree on the definition of Fascism is very much there.
In the 70s, the left wing ideologues put togather the basic ingredients of the German Fascism and attempted to use that to show that the US is a potential fascist regime. The German fascism had strong support of the finance capital and the Arms manufacturing business. Since the 50s, these two branches of the US capitalist system have certainly become the prominent sponsors of the all US governments. This is also true that both Finance capital and the arms industry impact the US foreign policy decision and for that reason alone the left wing was able to sell the idea that the US is potentially a fascist regime.
However, the most important question that left wing ideologues neglected to mention in their thesis was the entirely different make up of the US system and basically a lack of grievance among the general public that actually gave rise to fascism in both Germany and Italy. The ultra nationalism that led to fascism in Germany and to some extent in Italy is not there in the US. Another important point is that the UK and the US are the only two uninterrupted democracies in the last two hundred or more years. Both countries have also not suffered any catastrophic defeats in the last two hundred years. Therefore, ultra nationalism based on revenge and national revival is pretty much out of question in the US.
The religious right in the US does not have fascist tendencies and in fact is willing to take politically hits without resorting to violence.
Would like to continue but got to go now. Will continue later or if I hear more from you on the subject.
Thanks.

Re: # 68

Hamid sahib,

Since you asked, I`ll clue you in. Yes, we do eat a good bit rice and lentils (daal chawal), brown rice at that. The lentils, veggies and whole grain flour come from the co-op, all organic, of course. As for basil, parsley, mint and other herbs, they come from the green house in the back yard. I don`t sew my sandles, however, the quilts, stockings and other woolies are all done by the kids` mother and grandmother. We did, unfortunately, stoop low and sccumb to the hedonistic temptation of having central heating in our little country cottage, but I suppliment it all by chopping my own wood for the cast iron pot-bellied wood burning stove. Its keeps the fossil fuel use to a minimum plus the exercise is good for my heart. I wanted to use cow dung patties also, but the Mrs. put her foot down. The walk from the barnyard is a long one, besides she has a more sensitive nose than me. Moreover, the barn keeper told us that in this country Her Majesty`s agricultural inspectors do not look kindly upon cow dung patties as alternate heating resource. What an absolute scandal -- such a criminal waste of natural resource. But one must choose one`s battles carefully, so I relented. I`ve considered solar pannels but there isn`t enough sun on this misty island to justify them. I`m looking into windmills now.

Though there are lots of horses in the neighborhood, we still employ internal combustion engines in our mode of transportation. We keep our driving to a minimum though, and drive conservatively when we do. For short trips to the village center we prefer to walk or bicycle.

This isn`t even the half of it, but I`m sure you get the picture. Next time you are in the neighborhood stop by for a taste of the local brew. My neighbor has three vats going presently.

...SR

Re: # 77 {``... But they think of people like you or tahmad, for example, not much more than dogs. ...``}

Dear Urstruly,

I cannot speak for Ahmed sahib, but personally speaking, please rest assured that I have NEVER, not even once in 24 years, at an individual level been thought of as a dog by any of my associates. Now it depends on who in your book are these mysterious folks you refer to as they?? If its the facist elements in the elite or the neo-cons or some such other group, then I will not contest your assertion. However, my suspicion is that you mean the average, decent, friendly American people. If those are the ones you are referring to, then you just don`t know what you are talking about. I doubt if you`ve known (I mean at a presonal, close frienship level) an average American, apart from the superficial work place assocoiation or an office Christmas party. That being the case, I`m afraid you are simply projecting your own prejudice.

Respectfully,

...SR

Re: # 84

There is no need to be defensive. It will pass in a week or two and everybody will forget except a few pricks like me. I was just checking whether you will come out to defend them or not.

sadly, pbr drinking anarchists and green party crowd in general is so on the fringe here and the way this admin. is moving with their crazy god-obsessed agenda tied up with all the jingoistic symbols and rhetoric - there is no sign on the horizon that these fundos could be stopped in the near future. someone put it very aptly : ``we are stuck in a republican movie and there is no way out of it``.

Re: # 31

hey,
wasn`t a Tamil politician arrested under POTA for supporting the LTTE?

Re: # 85 Urstruly: {``...pricks like me...``}

What can I say...? Those are your own word, not mine. I wouldn`t have gone that far.

regards,

...SR

#87 by anokhi

[wasn`t a Tamil politician arrested under POTA for supporting the LTTE?]

Yep, the guy`s name is Vaiko, but when the POTA was repealed, he had to be released. The man is a known rabble-rouser, and as is the case with mischief makers everywhere, they like to latch on to contentious issues to garner support. He failed miserably when the Tamils in TN didn`t respond as enthusiastically to the LTTE`s cause as he had hoped.

HP # 67

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.
Both India and Pakistan have nationalism. Pakistanis have been more nationalistic over their history.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights.
Thanks to democratic framework India has a better record in this area.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.
To varying degrees both India and Pakistan scapegoat each other.

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism.
Pakistan is a big culprit here.

5. Rampant sexism.
India is better off here than Pakistan

6. A controlled mass media.
There is more media management in Pakistan than India.

7. Obsession with national security.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.
Ignoring the BJP Indian political elite have little to do with religion. Practically every mainstream Pakistani political party have deals with the mullahs.

9. Power of corporations protected.
India is probably more of a corporate state than Pakistan. This is a reflection of the under-development in Pakistan. Pakistani military has more corporations than the Indian military.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.
If you are under-developed it is hard to have an organized labor.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.
For reasons I cannot fathom Pakistan seems to have a problem.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment.
Pakistani state is incapable of enforcing its writ in most parts of the country.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.
Both states have this problem

14. Fraudulent elections.
Pakistan is again a culprit in this regard.