Fauzia’s Rejection
A Bismil May 18, 2005
#297 Posted by sajal on May 24, 2005 9:22:37 am
Muslim author creates conflict by taking a stand for women
By Jessica Yadegaran
CONTRA COSTA TIMES (original publisher)
Asra Nomani stood on the curb outside the Oakland Islamic Center on Saturday, refusing to do as she was told.
``Sister,`` a male congregant pressed for the fifth time, ``there is an entrance around the back for you.``
Nomani, 39, did not respond. Instead, her black eyes burned into the man, who eventually inched far enough out of the way for Nomani to slip into the mosque, minutes before the duhr, or afternoon prayer.
She placed her brown Mary Janes next to at least 50 pairs of men`s shoes before making herself comfortable in the back of the men`s section -- the main prayer hall -- instead of upstairs, behind a glass walled space reserved for women.
Half a dozen other men circled her, insisting she go upstairs. A messenger in the form of a little girl also approached. ``My daddy said there`s a place for you upstairs,`` she chimed in.
But Nomani, the West Virginia author of ``Standing Alone in Mecca,`` did not budge. ``Thank you, my brothers,`` she said. ``But I`m comfortable praying here.``
Nomani`s cause -- to desegregate American mosques, or at least create equal access for women -- is just one of many issues Muslim women are tackling as they redefine their roles within Islam. They are the children of immigrants raised and educated, highly educated, in the United States. They want to be leaders in their mosques, and in the Bay Area, many already are.
Nomani, who sent shock waves cross-country recently when she conducted the first female-led Muslim prayer in New York City, caused the same ripple effect with her visit to the Bay Area over the weekend.
``There`s no compulsion in religion,`` says Nomani, quoting the Quran over coffee at Berkeley`s Caffe Strada. ``The mosque should be the place where people`s spirits are lifted, not devastated. It really hurts your soul.``
Many local Muslims, including women, feel that although Nomani`s intentions are good, her Rosa Parks-style tactics are extreme and counterproductive, causing dissension and hostility in the local communities she visits on her current book tour. Nomani was well-received in Washington, D.C., but harassed out of mosques in Seattle and the Upper West Side of New York City.
Most women said they don`t mind being segregated during prayer -- segregation is for purposes of modesty because the Muslim prostrations are very physical -- as long as their spaces are decent and allow views of the imam, or religious leader. But those spaces range from dark basements to low-ceiling upstairs rooms, separated from the main hall by a curtain or wall. In the case of one local mosque, a broadcast of the pulpit is piped in on a Panasonic TV.
``We have much bigger issues in our community than why women enter through a side narrow entrance while men enter through the bigger, nicer one,`` says Ruby Kazi, 27, of Sunnyvale. ``What about whether their husbands let them leave the house at all? I know women who are beaten, and they say that`s what Muslim men do. But there`s nowhere in Islam that it says that.
``If women would educate themselves about their rights, they could stand up for themselves.``
In fact, Islamic law says only that the sexes should not pray shoulder to shoulder. Some of the world`s most famous mosques, in Cairo and Fez, Morocco, separate no one. During the prophet Muhammad`s time, mosques were thriving centers for community life, where women were active participants.
``That legacy needs to be reinforced,`` says Ameena Jandali, 44, of Berkeley. Jandali is a board member of the female-founded Islamic Networks Group, an educational outreach group. ``Unfortunately, a lot of what people are calling Islam is cultural Islam. Immigrants need to realize we`re in America, and it`s the 21st century.``
Many Bay Area Muslims agree. The large wave of South Asia and Middle Eastern Muslims who immigrated in the 1960s and `70s are still running the mosques, says Shirin Sinnar, an attorney with the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights in San Francisco.
``They`re reacting to a foreign culture and trying to preserve theirs in an environment where they feel very much under attack, especially in a post-9/11 world,`` Sinnar says.
Souleiman Ghali, president of the Islamic Society of San Francisco, sighs heavily when he talks about all the work that needs to be done.
``We`re faced with the reality that we have to build and engage our own community, which includes our women, yet it is under severe pressure to prove itself as peaceful and loyal. It`s a tremendous challenge. But I think the community is living up to the challenge,`` says Ghali, adding that educational outreach has quadrupled since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. ``Prior to that it wasn`t a priority to visit a church. But now if we don`t the consequences are too high.``
Prioritizing progress and engaging all Muslims is how the Bay Area is becoming a model for change, Sinnar says.
A poll taken by the Islamic Society of North America in 2003 found that only one in three mosques allowed women to serve on their board of directors and that members` top priority was improving mosque leadership, especially on gender issues.
Although the smaller mosques are slow to change, the two largest mosques in the Bay Area have at least one woman serving on their boards. The outgoing director of AMILA, American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism, was a woman who served for three years. At the mosque of the Muslim Community Association Islamic Center in Santa Clara, a sprawling 80,000 square-foot facility, the constitution is being rewritten to make it more women-friendly.
``It`s something we`ve wanted to update for a long time because there are so many women taking leaderships roles,`` says the mosque`s president, Razi Mohiuddin, of the group`s 25-year-old constitution. ``Some positions are open to men only, and we need to change that.``
Of the 26 committees at Muslim Community Association, Mohiuddin says about half are run by women.
That`s not to say that all sisters are sister-friendly. Nausheen Ali, a Fremont real estate broker who was raised by her single mother, prefers praying at home because of negative experiences she`s had in a local mosque.
Ali says she was harassed by an older woman when she was caught volunteering at the mosque without wearing her hijab, or head scarf.
``She said, `You`re such a good girl, such a selfless, generous girl, but all the good that you`re doing is negated by this,``` recalls Ali, 26. ``I haven`t really wanted to go back since.``
Ali is not alone. Even Sinnar, the civil rights lawyer, has had bad experiences. On a recent Friday, when she and her in-laws dropped into a small South Bay mosque, they were surprised to discover there was no area for women. Even more disturbing, Sinnar recalls, the imam told them to leave.
``This was such an alienating experience for us,`` says Sinnar. When she discussed it with her family, they decided to mobilize the community and talk to the imam about how un-Islamic his rules were. It didn`t hurt, Sinnar muses, that her father-in-law dropped more than a few times what his daughter-in-law did for a living.
It worked, sort of. Sinnar and her family were invited back, and a woman`s prayer area had been erected.
``We couldn`t see anything from the space, but for this little mosque, I see that as progress and a step in the right direction,`` she says.
In San Francisco, the progress was even greater.
On Friday, Nomani stepped into the city`s Islamic Society on Jones Street and sat in the back of the men`s prayer, just in time for the duhr. She received the usual harassment, but it didn`t last long. Ghali, the mosque`s president, not only told her she was welcome to stay, he commended her. It was the first time a woman had prayed in the main hall with the men.
``She`s raising some valid points,`` Ghali says. ``She`s putting on the pressure and making the issue alive. We cannot build our community without having women involved. I wish more women would come (and sit closer to the men).``
For Nomani, the real coup came in the form of a quiet, unknown woman who left her place behind the wall to sit beside Nomani. She stayed only for a few minutes and later told Nomani she returned to the women`s area because another woman told her to.
That made Nomani sad, but the few minutes she held that woman`s hand in the mosque made her happier than she`s been in a long time.
Jessica Yadegaran is a lifestyle reporter for the Times. Reach her atjyadegaran@cctimes.com or 925-943-8155.
To hear Asra Nomani read an excerpt from her book go to
By Jessica Yadegaran
CONTRA COSTA TIMES (original publisher)
Asra Nomani stood on the curb outside the Oakland Islamic Center on Saturday, refusing to do as she was told.
``Sister,`` a male congregant pressed for the fifth time, ``there is an entrance around the back for you.``
Nomani, 39, did not respond. Instead, her black eyes burned into the man, who eventually inched far enough out of the way for Nomani to slip into the mosque, minutes before the duhr, or afternoon prayer.
She placed her brown Mary Janes next to at least 50 pairs of men`s shoes before making herself comfortable in the back of the men`s section -- the main prayer hall -- instead of upstairs, behind a glass walled space reserved for women.
Half a dozen other men circled her, insisting she go upstairs. A messenger in the form of a little girl also approached. ``My daddy said there`s a place for you upstairs,`` she chimed in.
But Nomani, the West Virginia author of ``Standing Alone in Mecca,`` did not budge. ``Thank you, my brothers,`` she said. ``But I`m comfortable praying here.``
Nomani`s cause -- to desegregate American mosques, or at least create equal access for women -- is just one of many issues Muslim women are tackling as they redefine their roles within Islam. They are the children of immigrants raised and educated, highly educated, in the United States. They want to be leaders in their mosques, and in the Bay Area, many already are.
Nomani, who sent shock waves cross-country recently when she conducted the first female-led Muslim prayer in New York City, caused the same ripple effect with her visit to the Bay Area over the weekend.
``There`s no compulsion in religion,`` says Nomani, quoting the Quran over coffee at Berkeley`s Caffe Strada. ``The mosque should be the place where people`s spirits are lifted, not devastated. It really hurts your soul.``
Many local Muslims, including women, feel that although Nomani`s intentions are good, her Rosa Parks-style tactics are extreme and counterproductive, causing dissension and hostility in the local communities she visits on her current book tour. Nomani was well-received in Washington, D.C., but harassed out of mosques in Seattle and the Upper West Side of New York City.
Most women said they don`t mind being segregated during prayer -- segregation is for purposes of modesty because the Muslim prostrations are very physical -- as long as their spaces are decent and allow views of the imam, or religious leader. But those spaces range from dark basements to low-ceiling upstairs rooms, separated from the main hall by a curtain or wall. In the case of one local mosque, a broadcast of the pulpit is piped in on a Panasonic TV.
``We have much bigger issues in our community than why women enter through a side narrow entrance while men enter through the bigger, nicer one,`` says Ruby Kazi, 27, of Sunnyvale. ``What about whether their husbands let them leave the house at all? I know women who are beaten, and they say that`s what Muslim men do. But there`s nowhere in Islam that it says that.
``If women would educate themselves about their rights, they could stand up for themselves.``
In fact, Islamic law says only that the sexes should not pray shoulder to shoulder. Some of the world`s most famous mosques, in Cairo and Fez, Morocco, separate no one. During the prophet Muhammad`s time, mosques were thriving centers for community life, where women were active participants.
``That legacy needs to be reinforced,`` says Ameena Jandali, 44, of Berkeley. Jandali is a board member of the female-founded Islamic Networks Group, an educational outreach group. ``Unfortunately, a lot of what people are calling Islam is cultural Islam. Immigrants need to realize we`re in America, and it`s the 21st century.``
Many Bay Area Muslims agree. The large wave of South Asia and Middle Eastern Muslims who immigrated in the 1960s and `70s are still running the mosques, says Shirin Sinnar, an attorney with the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights in San Francisco.
``They`re reacting to a foreign culture and trying to preserve theirs in an environment where they feel very much under attack, especially in a post-9/11 world,`` Sinnar says.
Souleiman Ghali, president of the Islamic Society of San Francisco, sighs heavily when he talks about all the work that needs to be done.
``We`re faced with the reality that we have to build and engage our own community, which includes our women, yet it is under severe pressure to prove itself as peaceful and loyal. It`s a tremendous challenge. But I think the community is living up to the challenge,`` says Ghali, adding that educational outreach has quadrupled since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. ``Prior to that it wasn`t a priority to visit a church. But now if we don`t the consequences are too high.``
Prioritizing progress and engaging all Muslims is how the Bay Area is becoming a model for change, Sinnar says.
A poll taken by the Islamic Society of North America in 2003 found that only one in three mosques allowed women to serve on their board of directors and that members` top priority was improving mosque leadership, especially on gender issues.
Although the smaller mosques are slow to change, the two largest mosques in the Bay Area have at least one woman serving on their boards. The outgoing director of AMILA, American Muslims Intent on Learning and Activism, was a woman who served for three years. At the mosque of the Muslim Community Association Islamic Center in Santa Clara, a sprawling 80,000 square-foot facility, the constitution is being rewritten to make it more women-friendly.
``It`s something we`ve wanted to update for a long time because there are so many women taking leaderships roles,`` says the mosque`s president, Razi Mohiuddin, of the group`s 25-year-old constitution. ``Some positions are open to men only, and we need to change that.``
Of the 26 committees at Muslim Community Association, Mohiuddin says about half are run by women.
That`s not to say that all sisters are sister-friendly. Nausheen Ali, a Fremont real estate broker who was raised by her single mother, prefers praying at home because of negative experiences she`s had in a local mosque.
Ali says she was harassed by an older woman when she was caught volunteering at the mosque without wearing her hijab, or head scarf.
``She said, `You`re such a good girl, such a selfless, generous girl, but all the good that you`re doing is negated by this,``` recalls Ali, 26. ``I haven`t really wanted to go back since.``
Ali is not alone. Even Sinnar, the civil rights lawyer, has had bad experiences. On a recent Friday, when she and her in-laws dropped into a small South Bay mosque, they were surprised to discover there was no area for women. Even more disturbing, Sinnar recalls, the imam told them to leave.
``This was such an alienating experience for us,`` says Sinnar. When she discussed it with her family, they decided to mobilize the community and talk to the imam about how un-Islamic his rules were. It didn`t hurt, Sinnar muses, that her father-in-law dropped more than a few times what his daughter-in-law did for a living.
It worked, sort of. Sinnar and her family were invited back, and a woman`s prayer area had been erected.
``We couldn`t see anything from the space, but for this little mosque, I see that as progress and a step in the right direction,`` she says.
In San Francisco, the progress was even greater.
On Friday, Nomani stepped into the city`s Islamic Society on Jones Street and sat in the back of the men`s prayer, just in time for the duhr. She received the usual harassment, but it didn`t last long. Ghali, the mosque`s president, not only told her she was welcome to stay, he commended her. It was the first time a woman had prayed in the main hall with the men.
``She`s raising some valid points,`` Ghali says. ``She`s putting on the pressure and making the issue alive. We cannot build our community without having women involved. I wish more women would come (and sit closer to the men).``
For Nomani, the real coup came in the form of a quiet, unknown woman who left her place behind the wall to sit beside Nomani. She stayed only for a few minutes and later told Nomani she returned to the women`s area because another woman told her to.
That made Nomani sad, but the few minutes she held that woman`s hand in the mosque made her happier than she`s been in a long time.
Jessica Yadegaran is a lifestyle reporter for the Times. Reach her at
To hear Asra Nomani read an excerpt from her book go to
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#304 Posted by ntsyed on May 25, 2005 1:26:12 am
Re: # 297 by sajal
BTW, how come the column didn`t mention her Tantrika? Did it do so bad in sales? Probably that wouldn`t flow with the rest of the article, I suppose, and might hurt her credibility as per her mindset.
Just as I suspected, this is a PMU/MWU affiliate...at least in spirit.
:-)~~
BTW, how come the column didn`t mention her Tantrika? Did it do so bad in sales? Probably that wouldn`t flow with the rest of the article, I suppose, and might hurt her credibility as per her mindset.
Just as I suspected, this is a PMU/MWU affiliate...at least in spirit.
:-)~~
#298 Posted by slan on May 24, 2005 10:07:43 am
Re: # 297
Sajal ,do you consider, womens leading friday prayers right in the view of your faith?
Sajal ,do you consider, womens leading friday prayers right in the view of your faith?
#296 Posted by sajal on May 24, 2005 8:55:09 am
RE # 287
NT sahib,
I know the difference between sanity and lunacy. I also know the difference between being funny and making fun and you sir have difficulty differentiating between these.
My`` tender age`` knows the difference between being funny or being mean and sarcastic but apparently your ``delicate old age`` is catching up with you now!!!!!!!!!!!
NT sahib,
I know the difference between sanity and lunacy. I also know the difference between being funny and making fun and you sir have difficulty differentiating between these.
My`` tender age`` knows the difference between being funny or being mean and sarcastic but apparently your ``delicate old age`` is catching up with you now!!!!!!!!!!!
#302 Posted by ntsyed on May 25, 2005 1:24:54 am
Re: # 296 by Sajal
ohooooo....`tender age` wali baat buri lag gaee aap ko. No problem!
I`m proud of your ability to distinguish between sanity and lunacy, as well as being funny and making fun...
and you sir have difficulty differentiating between these.
Awwww...now you`ve broken my heart. Oh well....like good old Forest Gump said: ``laaife`s like a baux o` chowklates; ya neve` know wichun yer gauna get`` :(~~
My`` tender age`` knows the difference between being funny or being mean and sarcastic but apparently your ``delicate old age`` is catching up with you now!!!!!!!!!!!
Kindly inform me
- where was your knowledge when ``mean and sarcastic`` remarks were hurled at the religiously inclined, including myself?
- does it kick-in only when it bomps your ilk upside the head?
- or does it go out for grazing while a bearded Muslim - who does not question Allah`s Wisdom as a matter of faith - is the target of these?
- where was it when I overlooked a number of your provocative remarks?
But it`s okay, you don`t have to answer. I understand you`ve a dire need to fit in the ``progressive`` flock; answering these few question may jeopardize that.
We`ll settle these on the Final Day ;-)~~
Good Luck!
:-)~~
ohooooo....`tender age` wali baat buri lag gaee aap ko. No problem!
I`m proud of your ability to distinguish between sanity and lunacy, as well as being funny and making fun...
and you sir have difficulty differentiating between these.
Awwww...now you`ve broken my heart. Oh well....like good old Forest Gump said: ``laaife`s like a baux o` chowklates; ya neve` know wichun yer gauna get`` :(~~
My`` tender age`` knows the difference between being funny or being mean and sarcastic but apparently your ``delicate old age`` is catching up with you now!!!!!!!!!!!
Kindly inform me
- where was your knowledge when ``mean and sarcastic`` remarks were hurled at the religiously inclined, including myself?
- does it kick-in only when it bomps your ilk upside the head?
- or does it go out for grazing while a bearded Muslim - who does not question Allah`s Wisdom as a matter of faith - is the target of these?
- where was it when I overlooked a number of your provocative remarks?
But it`s okay, you don`t have to answer. I understand you`ve a dire need to fit in the ``progressive`` flock; answering these few question may jeopardize that.
We`ll settle these on the Final Day ;-)~~
Good Luck!
:-)~~
#295 Posted by temporal on May 24, 2005 8:21:35 am
miriam:
thanks...sigh...you are right!...but to remain silent in the face of travesty is crime too:)
#286:
sir. you can turn and twist and roll and skim and skip and squirm all you want and for as long as you want...and in a fit of fancy you can imagine and gloat all you want over your cybervictories in your mind
but
you cannot escape the jaws of truth
that will catch up with you as it will catch up with every breathing soul
rgds
t
thanks...sigh...you are right!...but to remain silent in the face of travesty is crime too:)
#286:
sir. you can turn and twist and roll and skim and skip and squirm all you want and for as long as you want...and in a fit of fancy you can imagine and gloat all you want over your cybervictories in your mind
but
you cannot escape the jaws of truth
that will catch up with you as it will catch up with every breathing soul
rgds
t
#303 Posted by ntsyed on May 25, 2005 1:25:15 am
Re: # 295 by temporal
Ameen; thumma ameen!
With every passing moment of my life I look forward to the Day when the jaws of truth...catch up with every breathing soul
It seems to have caught up with you sooner than you expected.
If it helps to alleviate your sobbing induced hiccups, I`m not gloating in anything. I do not gloat over my cybervictories or street fight with gangsters. My knowledge, strength, and skills to compete in any milieu, and ensuing victory or defeat is from Allah. And in every instance I thank Allah try to learn a lesson or two from it.
Regards to you and your loved ones too :-)~~
Ameen; thumma ameen!
With every passing moment of my life I look forward to the Day when the jaws of truth...catch up with every breathing soul
It seems to have caught up with you sooner than you expected.
If it helps to alleviate your sobbing induced hiccups, I`m not gloating in anything. I do not gloat over my cybervictories or street fight with gangsters. My knowledge, strength, and skills to compete in any milieu, and ensuing victory or defeat is from Allah. And in every instance I thank Allah try to learn a lesson or two from it.
Regards to you and your loved ones too :-)~~
#292 Posted by hamzax on May 24, 2005 6:36:30 am
i dont really understand the essence of this article. what is it trying to say ?
people ego`s ? our lack of virtue ?
people ego`s ? our lack of virtue ?
#291 Posted by Saminasha on May 24, 2005 4:25:45 am
NyetSyed,
You`ve gotten far more attention than you deserve in all your howling and spinning around trying to catch your own tail.
Something more to keep that momentum in action:
Religion, like any other systems theory is NOT based on truth. It is a set of performed practices and laws used to organize and control society. It is AS valid as any other system-and LESS effective than socialist and pluralist democracies in offering EQUAL opportunities to its citizens.
You want to believe in fairytales? Knock yourself out. But do not delude yourself for ONE SECOND that your religious beliefs are any manifestation of truth-religion is the biggest hoax SOME of humanity participates in.
Popcorn, anyone? The show`s about to begin....
You`ve gotten far more attention than you deserve in all your howling and spinning around trying to catch your own tail.
Something more to keep that momentum in action:
Religion, like any other systems theory is NOT based on truth. It is a set of performed practices and laws used to organize and control society. It is AS valid as any other system-and LESS effective than socialist and pluralist democracies in offering EQUAL opportunities to its citizens.
You want to believe in fairytales? Knock yourself out. But do not delude yourself for ONE SECOND that your religious beliefs are any manifestation of truth-religion is the biggest hoax SOME of humanity participates in.
Popcorn, anyone? The show`s about to begin....
#293 Posted by ntsyed on May 24, 2005 7:23:41 am
Re: # 291
LOL
Typical defeatist ``progressive``....spoken from the smoldering ruins.
``You`ve gotten far more attention than you deserve in all your howling and spinning around trying to catch your own tail.``
Judging from your latest post; metaphorically speaking, rather it is you who seems to be chasing my tail with a desperate mating howl .... lol ;-)~~
Oh now look what you made me do....the humor impaired ``progressives`` will now suffer another broken heart with my unfathomable verbiage.....awwwwwwwwww
Give it up, mohterma. Take a cue from your colleagues.......cut your losses and leave while you can.
Truth appears at its designated time set by Allah. When it does, it knocks out its suppressers flat on their behinds irrespective of beards, breasts, genders, ideologies, confusion or what have you.
Sorry you got burned, but you picked up the burning coal by yourself..........ye dhuan sa kahan se uthta haaaaiii..........lol..........
No one is coaxing you into the ``biggest hoax``. It is purely your choice, if that`s what you prefer to call it.
As if once wasn`t enough, you can continue to knock YOURSELF out by quote your neutral ideologues & neutered atheism until the Truth, as in the Creator, declares who lives and who believes in fairytales.
If you wish for your intellectual urges to be satisfied....well, you know where I live. Insha Allah you`ll not return dissatisfied, if you decide to return. This portal is way too small to manage, in your case, the bitter truth as you may have witnessed it already.
ciao :-)~~
LOL
Typical defeatist ``progressive``....spoken from the smoldering ruins.
``You`ve gotten far more attention than you deserve in all your howling and spinning around trying to catch your own tail.``
Judging from your latest post; metaphorically speaking, rather it is you who seems to be chasing my tail with a desperate mating howl .... lol ;-)~~
Oh now look what you made me do....the humor impaired ``progressives`` will now suffer another broken heart with my unfathomable verbiage.....awwwwwwwwww
Give it up, mohterma. Take a cue from your colleagues.......cut your losses and leave while you can.
Truth appears at its designated time set by Allah. When it does, it knocks out its suppressers flat on their behinds irrespective of beards, breasts, genders, ideologies, confusion or what have you.
Sorry you got burned, but you picked up the burning coal by yourself..........ye dhuan sa kahan se uthta haaaaiii..........lol..........
No one is coaxing you into the ``biggest hoax``. It is purely your choice, if that`s what you prefer to call it.
As if once wasn`t enough, you can continue to knock YOURSELF out by quote your neutral ideologues & neutered atheism until the Truth, as in the Creator, declares who lives and who believes in fairytales.
If you wish for your intellectual urges to be satisfied....well, you know where I live. Insha Allah you`ll not return dissatisfied, if you decide to return. This portal is way too small to manage, in your case, the bitter truth as you may have witnessed it already.
ciao :-)~~
#285 Posted by amrita on May 23, 2005 9:52:40 pm
Arre nt sahib, aap to bilkul hil gaye.
I asked you why you didnt move to Iran and you started talking to me about Samina. Then about temporal. Then you give me a translation of your incomprehensible post ... and it is STILL incomprehensible - coz it has nothing to do with what I asked you. I dont care if all Muslims move to Iran - I am wondering why YOU didnt move to Iran.
Simple sa question hai - when you had a chance and still have a chance to move to the best Islamic country, why did you choose instead a westernized Islamic country? The only almost reasonable answer you gave is that Allah didnt deem it fit - but I already replied to that.
In fact I have answered everything you put to me - on this subject - but you still havent answered this simple one. Why is that?
I asked you why you didnt move to Iran and you started talking to me about Samina. Then about temporal. Then you give me a translation of your incomprehensible post ... and it is STILL incomprehensible - coz it has nothing to do with what I asked you. I dont care if all Muslims move to Iran - I am wondering why YOU didnt move to Iran.
Simple sa question hai - when you had a chance and still have a chance to move to the best Islamic country, why did you choose instead a westernized Islamic country? The only almost reasonable answer you gave is that Allah didnt deem it fit - but I already replied to that.
In fact I have answered everything you put to me - on this subject - but you still havent answered this simple one. Why is that?
#290 Posted by ntsyed on May 24, 2005 2:37:57 am
Re: # 285 by Amrita
Amrita,
Sweetie, I do not know the cure for dyslexia or ADDS. You`ll have to consult an expert. I believe it`s a long drawn out process.
It seems you suffer from forgetfullness too, as you did not remember your own post to malik99 and myself, to which I responded.
Or may be it`s just plain old mental block due to frustration out of failure to silence a non-english-medium non-progressive bearded mullah as per your definition.
When did I ever say that I had a choice to move to Iran?
But how could I expect you, a non-Muslim, to understand the concept of Allah, His incomprehensible Powers, His Mysterious Ways, etc, when some adult Muslims here are struggling with His Existence.
Although the above response to your query was provided repeatedly, it was my mistake to take you for an open-minded person as per your claims. Kindly accept my sincere apologies for this folly.
Please feel free to continue your rant if you still fail to get it. However, whether I reply or not, the answer remains the same.
Ciao
Amrita,
Sweetie, I do not know the cure for dyslexia or ADDS. You`ll have to consult an expert. I believe it`s a long drawn out process.
It seems you suffer from forgetfullness too, as you did not remember your own post to malik99 and myself, to which I responded.
Or may be it`s just plain old mental block due to frustration out of failure to silence a non-english-medium non-progressive bearded mullah as per your definition.
When did I ever say that I had a choice to move to Iran?
But how could I expect you, a non-Muslim, to understand the concept of Allah, His incomprehensible Powers, His Mysterious Ways, etc, when some adult Muslims here are struggling with His Existence.
Although the above response to your query was provided repeatedly, it was my mistake to take you for an open-minded person as per your claims. Kindly accept my sincere apologies for this folly.
Please feel free to continue your rant if you still fail to get it. However, whether I reply or not, the answer remains the same.
Ciao
#294 Posted by amrita on May 24, 2005 7:30:12 am
Re: # 290
NT sahib, ``rant``? Since when is a question a rant? Now lets see -
Dyslexia and ADD - I didnt ask you about either.
Being a Muslim - My posts had nothing to do with being a Muslim or with Muslims in general [I have pointed this out before], My post has to do with you and your conviction that Allah doesnt want you in Iran as per one reply of yours. Please point out one instance where I have asked ALL muslims or even all CONSERVATIVE muslims to move to Iran?
Having the choice to move to Iran - look, when one likes a country so much that one thinks it pretty near perfect, one looks for opportunities to go there. I`m sure the sheikhs didnt come calling for you and invite you to UAE either, but you went there didnt you? Similarly, why not Iran?
Me being open-minded - one cannot be open minded for long unless one is willing to ask questions and find out more. Have I yet called you any names? Have I heaped scorn on you for liking Iran? No. I simply want to know why you have never tried to move to Iran.
Okay, I`ll tell you something - I have never yet met anyone who wants to go to Iran. I know plenty of people moving out of Iran but no one who is going into Iran. Now there is you [and a few others] who appear to really like whats going on in there... so why dont you want to go there?
NT sahib, ``rant``? Since when is a question a rant? Now lets see -
Dyslexia and ADD - I didnt ask you about either.
Being a Muslim - My posts had nothing to do with being a Muslim or with Muslims in general [I have pointed this out before], My post has to do with you and your conviction that Allah doesnt want you in Iran as per one reply of yours. Please point out one instance where I have asked ALL muslims or even all CONSERVATIVE muslims to move to Iran?
Having the choice to move to Iran - look, when one likes a country so much that one thinks it pretty near perfect, one looks for opportunities to go there. I`m sure the sheikhs didnt come calling for you and invite you to UAE either, but you went there didnt you? Similarly, why not Iran?
Me being open-minded - one cannot be open minded for long unless one is willing to ask questions and find out more. Have I yet called you any names? Have I heaped scorn on you for liking Iran? No. I simply want to know why you have never tried to move to Iran.
Okay, I`ll tell you something - I have never yet met anyone who wants to go to Iran. I know plenty of people moving out of Iran but no one who is going into Iran. Now there is you [and a few others] who appear to really like whats going on in there... so why dont you want to go there?
#301 Posted by ntsyed on May 25, 2005 1:06:58 am
Re: # 294 by Amrita
Amrita,
No, you haven`t called me names, and nor have you scroned me for liking Iran; and I`m grateful to you for your civility.
1- As I`ve said before: my most ardent wish is to go to Makkah and/or Madinah.
It has nothing to do with the system or govt or resources or anything in any given country, including Iran.
For a Muslim like me, these two places are closer to the paradise more than any other place on this earth. More than any other place, these can be short-cuts to the paradise - the desired ultimate abode for every normal human being.
2- Inspite of, or as per my wishes, when Allah Deems for me to be in Makkah/Madina, Iran, Las Vegas, etc, He will create circumstances for me to be there, which in metaphoric terms means He takes my hands and leads me there.
He Knows my future more than I do and Knows what`s better for me in this life and hereafter. I could not question His Wisdom and Plans even if I wanted to. I just have to remain steadfast in following His instructions and continue to improve my faith, humanity, and actions regardless of surroundings.
3- As for your personal observation - looking at the traffic from where you may be standing, it is possible that you never met anyone going to Iran because they are on the other side of the road, i.e. outbound traffic, TO Iran.
The ones you know are the ones amongst the inbound traffic, FROM Iran. Thus, you keep missing the people with the ``other`` mindset.
Furthermore, it is common for every country to have a segment of population that does not like the system.
Ciao :-)~~
Amrita,
No, you haven`t called me names, and nor have you scroned me for liking Iran; and I`m grateful to you for your civility.
1- As I`ve said before: my most ardent wish is to go to Makkah and/or Madinah.
It has nothing to do with the system or govt or resources or anything in any given country, including Iran.
For a Muslim like me, these two places are closer to the paradise more than any other place on this earth. More than any other place, these can be short-cuts to the paradise - the desired ultimate abode for every normal human being.
2- Inspite of, or as per my wishes, when Allah Deems for me to be in Makkah/Madina, Iran, Las Vegas, etc, He will create circumstances for me to be there, which in metaphoric terms means He takes my hands and leads me there.
He Knows my future more than I do and Knows what`s better for me in this life and hereafter. I could not question His Wisdom and Plans even if I wanted to. I just have to remain steadfast in following His instructions and continue to improve my faith, humanity, and actions regardless of surroundings.
3- As for your personal observation - looking at the traffic from where you may be standing, it is possible that you never met anyone going to Iran because they are on the other side of the road, i.e. outbound traffic, TO Iran.
The ones you know are the ones amongst the inbound traffic, FROM Iran. Thus, you keep missing the people with the ``other`` mindset.
Furthermore, it is common for every country to have a segment of population that does not like the system.
Ciao :-)~~
#308 Posted by amrita on May 25, 2005 3:45:20 am
Re: # 301
NT sahib, what a day when one person is actually grateful to another for common civility!
anyhoo - re:
outbound/inbound traffic - i see a lot of people from pakistan, india, etc who disapprove of whats taking place in their country... still eventually they have this idea that they will go home even if its just something they tell themselves out of nostalgia or homesickness. None of the Iranians I know feel that way. Its very puzzling to me because they tell me about people vanishing in the night, about a lack of freedom, about a lack of opportunity, about a country and a people who are slowly petrifying and i understand why they dont want to be there - and you tell me how things are really very different but you still dont want to be there.
Mecca/Medina - these are places every Muslim would want to go. That is not what i am concerned with. I`m talking about Iran as a lifestyle choice rather than a religious visit. Like the way so many Iranians have adopted India, for example, or even the US or UK as their country rather than just visiting Disneyworld or something [no comparison here, just an example]. I think Allah helps those who help themselves.
lil digression to illustrate point - a man hears on the radio that his house in the path of a major flood and all people in his area are advised to evacuate. he thinks, God will help me and stays put. Soon his neighbor comes along and asks him to hop a ride with him. the man refuses saying, God will help me. The floods come and the man is swept away. As he clings to a branch a man comes along on a boat and tries to help him aboard. The man refuses and says, God will help me. Finally, just before he hits a steep waterfall, rescue helicopters show up and extend a rope ladder to him. He refuses saying, God will help me. the man is swept over and is killed. On reaching heaven he asks God why He didnt help him. God says, I sent you a radio warning, a neighbor, a man in a boat and a helicopter - how much more could i help you?
Similarly...
NT sahib, what a day when one person is actually grateful to another for common civility!
anyhoo - re:
outbound/inbound traffic - i see a lot of people from pakistan, india, etc who disapprove of whats taking place in their country... still eventually they have this idea that they will go home even if its just something they tell themselves out of nostalgia or homesickness. None of the Iranians I know feel that way. Its very puzzling to me because they tell me about people vanishing in the night, about a lack of freedom, about a lack of opportunity, about a country and a people who are slowly petrifying and i understand why they dont want to be there - and you tell me how things are really very different but you still dont want to be there.
Mecca/Medina - these are places every Muslim would want to go. That is not what i am concerned with. I`m talking about Iran as a lifestyle choice rather than a religious visit. Like the way so many Iranians have adopted India, for example, or even the US or UK as their country rather than just visiting Disneyworld or something [no comparison here, just an example]. I think Allah helps those who help themselves.
lil digression to illustrate point - a man hears on the radio that his house in the path of a major flood and all people in his area are advised to evacuate. he thinks, God will help me and stays put. Soon his neighbor comes along and asks him to hop a ride with him. the man refuses saying, God will help me. The floods come and the man is swept away. As he clings to a branch a man comes along on a boat and tries to help him aboard. The man refuses and says, God will help me. Finally, just before he hits a steep waterfall, rescue helicopters show up and extend a rope ladder to him. He refuses saying, God will help me. the man is swept over and is killed. On reaching heaven he asks God why He didnt help him. God says, I sent you a radio warning, a neighbor, a man in a boat and a helicopter - how much more could i help you?
Similarly...
#307 Posted by amrita on May 25, 2005 3:43:16 am
Re: # 301
NT sahib, what a day when one person is actually grateful to another for common civility!
anyhoo - re:
outbound/inbound traffic - i see a lot of people from pakistan, india, etc who disapprove of whats taking place in their country... still eventually they have this idea that they will go home even if its just something they tell themselves out of nostalgia or homesickness. None of the Iranians I know feel that way. Its very puzzling to me because they tell me about people vanishing in the night, about a lack of freedom, about a lack of opportunity, about a country and a people who are slowly petrifying and i understand why they dont want to be there - and you tell me how things are really very different but you still dont want to be there.
Mecca/Medina - these are places every Muslim would want to go. That is not what i am concerned with. I`m talking about Iran as a lifestyle choice rather than a religious visit. Like the way so many Iranians have adopted India, for example, or even the US or UK as their country rather than just visiting Disneyworld or something [no comparison here, just an example]. I think Allah helps those who help themselves.
lil digression to illustrate point - a man hears on the radio that his house in the path of a major flood and all people in his area are advised to evacuate. he thinks, God will help me and stays put. Soon his neighbor comes along and asks him to hop a ride with him. the man refuses saying, God will help me. The floods come and the man is swept away. As he clings to a branch a man comes along on a boat and tries to help him aboard. The man refuses and says, God will help me. Finally, just before he hits a steep waterfall, rescue helicopters show up and extend a rope ladder to him. He refuses saying, God will help me. the man is swept over and is killed. On reaching heaven he asks God why He didnt help him. God says, I sent you a radio warning, a neighbor, a man in a boat and a helicopter - how much more could i help you?
Similarly...
NT sahib, what a day when one person is actually grateful to another for common civility!
anyhoo - re:
outbound/inbound traffic - i see a lot of people from pakistan, india, etc who disapprove of whats taking place in their country... still eventually they have this idea that they will go home even if its just something they tell themselves out of nostalgia or homesickness. None of the Iranians I know feel that way. Its very puzzling to me because they tell me about people vanishing in the night, about a lack of freedom, about a lack of opportunity, about a country and a people who are slowly petrifying and i understand why they dont want to be there - and you tell me how things are really very different but you still dont want to be there.
Mecca/Medina - these are places every Muslim would want to go. That is not what i am concerned with. I`m talking about Iran as a lifestyle choice rather than a religious visit. Like the way so many Iranians have adopted India, for example, or even the US or UK as their country rather than just visiting Disneyworld or something [no comparison here, just an example]. I think Allah helps those who help themselves.
lil digression to illustrate point - a man hears on the radio that his house in the path of a major flood and all people in his area are advised to evacuate. he thinks, God will help me and stays put. Soon his neighbor comes along and asks him to hop a ride with him. the man refuses saying, God will help me. The floods come and the man is swept away. As he clings to a branch a man comes along on a boat and tries to help him aboard. The man refuses and says, God will help me. Finally, just before he hits a steep waterfall, rescue helicopters show up and extend a rope ladder to him. He refuses saying, God will help me. the man is swept over and is killed. On reaching heaven he asks God why He didnt help him. God says, I sent you a radio warning, a neighbor, a man in a boat and a helicopter - how much more could i help you?
Similarly...
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- Dash_Dot: Re: # 84 sabji... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- mohar11: I mean - zardari... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- Dash_Dot: Tahmed32 sabji LOL at... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- AlephNull: There's nothing particularly mysterious... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- mohar11: kaal oh, we understand it... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- mohar11: if pakis really want... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- Eklavya: mohar, Pakistanis may be... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
- mohar11: Saala chutiya paki -... India-Pakistan: Empathy, grief in
