A Bismil May 18, 2005
#145 Posted by miriamk on May 20, 2005 8:28:16 am
Every dozen or so posts I keep coming across one which bemoans (and wonders at)liberated Pakistani women equating freedom with promiscuous sex. I’m not sure whether this misunderstanding is deliberate or unintentional. Nevertheless it is a misunderstanding.
Not one liberated Pakistani (or for that matter South-Asian) woman I know ever has had or is having indiscriminate sex. Quite frankly, they have too many other things to do. Being a trailblazer and shrugging off shackles of repression leaves hardly any time for orgiastic feasts. There are after all only 24 hrs in a day (and personally I could use at least 5 more to do things that need doing).
Sexuality is NOT synonymous with sex. A woman claiming her sexuality is about her unwillingness to be viewed a sexual object, unquestioningly satisfying the desires of a man, while not being allowed to have any of her own. Claiming sexuality is a matter of principle. It’s about a woman saying (and more importantly believing) that she can be a passionate and willing partner minus the requisite guilt.
This struggle is hardly unique to South-Asian women, our Western counterparts have grappled with this issue for years and some still are.
Not one liberated Pakistani (or for that matter South-Asian) woman I know ever has had or is having indiscriminate sex. Quite frankly, they have too many other things to do. Being a trailblazer and shrugging off shackles of repression leaves hardly any time for orgiastic feasts. There are after all only 24 hrs in a day (and personally I could use at least 5 more to do things that need doing).
Sexuality is NOT synonymous with sex. A woman claiming her sexuality is about her unwillingness to be viewed a sexual object, unquestioningly satisfying the desires of a man, while not being allowed to have any of her own. Claiming sexuality is a matter of principle. It’s about a woman saying (and more importantly believing) that she can be a passionate and willing partner minus the requisite guilt.
This struggle is hardly unique to South-Asian women, our Western counterparts have grappled with this issue for years and some still are.
#146 Posted by ZahraJ on May 20, 2005 9:00:12 am
Re: # 143
Naqshbandi:
Glad to hear that you are growing older and wiser(ahem..ahem..ahem). I am sorry I am under the weather. What the hell is happening in this picture that you have posted? The ulema`ae karaam are discussing what ? Do you think it is fair to have the ulema wear so many yards of clothing when there are homeless people dying of hunger and poverty in their respective countries. How sad and ironic!
Naqshbandi:
Glad to hear that you are growing older and wiser(ahem..ahem..ahem). I am sorry I am under the weather. What the hell is happening in this picture that you have posted? The ulema`ae karaam are discussing what ? Do you think it is fair to have the ulema wear so many yards of clothing when there are homeless people dying of hunger and poverty in their respective countries. How sad and ironic!
#147 Posted by temporal on May 20, 2005 9:18:51 am
Miriam:
yes am aware of the other issues…(viz. poverty, abuse, incest, rape…the list is endless)…and was (obviously) facetious with that gun bit…do i need to seek forgiveness?
…the perpetuating injustices faced by the disenfranchised (and here read women and all other minorities) throughout history has to be rectified…and this is broadening the argument…though we are discussing this here with specific references to the fozias but this applies to all the disenfranchised globally…there is no disagreement on this amongst any decent and fair thinking person here…
…imho in this journey of that proverbial thousand miles the first step that needs to be taken is education…that is all i was suggesting…in its wake will follow understanding, economic empowerment leading the disenfranchised to stand up powerfully for their rights…if anyone has another first step to suggest am willing to listen
lve
t
yes am aware of the other issues…(viz. poverty, abuse, incest, rape…the list is endless)…and was (obviously) facetious with that gun bit…do i need to seek forgiveness?
…the perpetuating injustices faced by the disenfranchised (and here read women and all other minorities) throughout history has to be rectified…and this is broadening the argument…though we are discussing this here with specific references to the fozias but this applies to all the disenfranchised globally…there is no disagreement on this amongst any decent and fair thinking person here…
…imho in this journey of that proverbial thousand miles the first step that needs to be taken is education…that is all i was suggesting…in its wake will follow understanding, economic empowerment leading the disenfranchised to stand up powerfully for their rights…if anyone has another first step to suggest am willing to listen
lve
t
#148 Posted by temporal on May 20, 2005 9:30:24 am
Sajal:
re: patriarchy in pakistan¡K.thanks¡Kfor explaining how the power is derived¡Kƒº
both of us are perhaps talking a bit cross-purpose here ¡K the rest i¡¦ve mentioned in my post to miriam #147:
¡Kit is good to keep the perspective in mind and the resolve as well¡Kbut to overthrow the injustices of history¡Ka concerted first step needs to be taken mixed with steely resolve
lve
t
re: patriarchy in pakistan¡K.thanks¡Kfor explaining how the power is derived¡Kƒº
both of us are perhaps talking a bit cross-purpose here ¡K the rest i¡¦ve mentioned in my post to miriam #147:
¡Kit is good to keep the perspective in mind and the resolve as well¡Kbut to overthrow the injustices of history¡Ka concerted first step needs to be taken mixed with steely resolve
lve
t
#149 Posted by terranova on May 20, 2005 9:46:13 am
Re: # 145
miriamk: i think the writer equated freedom with sex, much more so than the posters
miriamk: i think the writer equated freedom with sex, much more so than the posters
#150 Posted by temporal on May 20, 2005 9:58:10 am
(repeat of #148 -- can`t explain cyber glitches in there)
sajal:
re: patriarchy in pakistan….thanks…for explaining how the power is derived...:)
both of us are perhaps talking a bit cross-purpose here … the rest i’ve mentioned in my post to miriam #146:
…it is good to keep the perspective in mind and the resolve as well…but to overthrow the injustices of history…a concerted first step needs to be taken mixed with steely resolve
lve
t
sajal:
re: patriarchy in pakistan….thanks…for explaining how the power is derived...:)
both of us are perhaps talking a bit cross-purpose here … the rest i’ve mentioned in my post to miriam #146:
…it is good to keep the perspective in mind and the resolve as well…but to overthrow the injustices of history…a concerted first step needs to be taken mixed with steely resolve
lve
t
#151 Posted by ntsyed on May 20, 2005 11:09:38 am
Re: # 21
hamidm, thank you for posting my pic...i`ve been looking for it everywhere while you`ve been holding it all along...shame on you for that one.
But you may have caused the non-mehram ladies (for me) to commit a visual sin with my beautiful sh`er al-leyha; the impressive left profile, etc.
Lastly, kindly do not impose the farangi title on me. I still have 3 slots open (lobbied by the children, #1 is almost ready to welcome 2, 3, & 4), and the ninja ladies may not appreciate the Mr. with my name.
apnay chances to kho chukay aap Amerika mein baith k; meray chances kis chakkar mein dubana chahtay ho bhai? :-)~~
hamidm, thank you for posting my pic...i`ve been looking for it everywhere while you`ve been holding it all along...shame on you for that one.
But you may have caused the non-mehram ladies (for me) to commit a visual sin with my beautiful sh`er al-leyha; the impressive left profile, etc.
Lastly, kindly do not impose the farangi title on me. I still have 3 slots open (lobbied by the children, #1 is almost ready to welcome 2, 3, & 4), and the ninja ladies may not appreciate the Mr. with my name.
apnay chances to kho chukay aap Amerika mein baith k; meray chances kis chakkar mein dubana chahtay ho bhai? :-)~~
#152 Posted by ZahraJ on May 20, 2005 11:20:46 am
Re: # 141
Dost-Mittar:
Thank you for highlighting the key components of this write-up.
Regards,
Dost-Mittar:
Thank you for highlighting the key components of this write-up.
Regards,
#153 Posted by ntsyed on May 20, 2005 11:36:40 am
malik99 and Nadia_Zehra have said it the best: there is a problem, but the only solution is education, not promiscuity and adultery.
So, I ask the ``progressives`` here - men and women - how much time, money, and effort have you or are you willing to put into educating the perpetually imperiled women? As far as the past is concerned...there`s no evidence any one of the progressives in the Pak history has done anything substantial in this respect.
Now, most of them sit comfortably in the Western hemisphere and continue to shout at mulla for teaching Quran and Sunnah to these unfortunate women with available limited resources. Mulla Edhi`s of Pakistan have been the ones who continue to unconditionally shelter, educate and care for these women, while NOW is NEVER around in these efforts.
Anyhow, I don`t see the self-proclaimed ``temporal progressive Pakistanis Muslims`` to put their money where their mouths in the near future. Their forte remains ceaseless yapping.
Meanwhile, scores of women continue to break the cycle of oppression through education, particularly Islamic education which teaches them their God-given rights, and become proud and productive members of the society without compromising any Islamic values. The relatively fortunate ones go on to succeed in sciences too.
However, these numbers will never see the newspaper ink or become the electronic bytes as long as the Human Rights Pak, NOW and other such orgs can help it. Otherise, it will furthe prove the the latter`s connivance to corrupt and destroy our society with their failed models; it will expose their failure in changing the trends for better; and it prove the practical nature of Islam...just like we seldom, if ever, hear about the US prison system where the most successful rehabilitation program is Islamization :-)~~
So, I ask the ``progressives`` here - men and women - how much time, money, and effort have you or are you willing to put into educating the perpetually imperiled women? As far as the past is concerned...there`s no evidence any one of the progressives in the Pak history has done anything substantial in this respect.
Now, most of them sit comfortably in the Western hemisphere and continue to shout at mulla for teaching Quran and Sunnah to these unfortunate women with available limited resources. Mulla Edhi`s of Pakistan have been the ones who continue to unconditionally shelter, educate and care for these women, while NOW is NEVER around in these efforts.
Anyhow, I don`t see the self-proclaimed ``temporal progressive Pakistanis Muslims`` to put their money where their mouths in the near future. Their forte remains ceaseless yapping.
Meanwhile, scores of women continue to break the cycle of oppression through education, particularly Islamic education which teaches them their God-given rights, and become proud and productive members of the society without compromising any Islamic values. The relatively fortunate ones go on to succeed in sciences too.
However, these numbers will never see the newspaper ink or become the electronic bytes as long as the Human Rights Pak, NOW and other such orgs can help it. Otherise, it will furthe prove the the latter`s connivance to corrupt and destroy our society with their failed models; it will expose their failure in changing the trends for better; and it prove the practical nature of Islam...just like we seldom, if ever, hear about the US prison system where the most successful rehabilitation program is Islamization :-)~~
#154 Posted by miriamk on May 20, 2005 11:52:45 am
Temporal
#147
Do you need to seek forgiveness? Of course not :) (long day, hideous commute, late night, etc.).
Microfinance has been doing some substantive things as far as tackling disenfranchisement on a local level in many of these countries with some success. Although, there are some problems (i.e. high interest rates, draconian lending restrictions, etc.). Most of Grameen Bank’s borrowers are women because they default less. Giving women some of their own money and starting them off on an enterprise (albeit very small) begins to change that power structure that sajal referred to. A small step in an otherwise monstrous undertaking but then Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Well, I’ve got to go see a man about a horse or is it the other way around? :).
#147
Do you need to seek forgiveness? Of course not :) (long day, hideous commute, late night, etc.).
Microfinance has been doing some substantive things as far as tackling disenfranchisement on a local level in many of these countries with some success. Although, there are some problems (i.e. high interest rates, draconian lending restrictions, etc.). Most of Grameen Bank’s borrowers are women because they default less. Giving women some of their own money and starting them off on an enterprise (albeit very small) begins to change that power structure that sajal referred to. A small step in an otherwise monstrous undertaking but then Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Well, I’ve got to go see a man about a horse or is it the other way around? :).
#155 Posted by Saminasha on May 20, 2005 12:23:03 pm
Ntsyed,
Again, the point of this piece is agency. You could really start bragging when Muslim and formerly Muslim women make their choices without fear of reprisal, harrassment, imprisonment, torture and abuse from fundamentalist institutions and individuals. Otherwise, its all yang.
Again, the point of this piece is agency. You could really start bragging when Muslim and formerly Muslim women make their choices without fear of reprisal, harrassment, imprisonment, torture and abuse from fundamentalist institutions and individuals. Otherwise, its all yang.
#156 Posted by abysmal on May 20, 2005 2:06:00 pm
These are two more of my amateur attempts at story writing based on a conglomeration of true life characters.
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001391&channel=chaathouse
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001077&channel=gulberg
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001391&channel=chaathouse
http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00001077&channel=gulberg
#157 Posted by Raw_Dust on May 20, 2005 2:27:54 pm
abysmal:
hey, what you are doing is a heck of a lot better than say any other metaphor-heavy piece of nothing. it aint about Lit. over here (got you). more power to you. !
cheers!
hey, what you are doing is a heck of a lot better than say any other metaphor-heavy piece of nothing. it aint about Lit. over here (got you). more power to you. !
cheers!
#158 Posted by Naqshbandi on May 20, 2005 2:44:53 pm
miriamk--when has anyone denied that women too are sexual beings with legitimate needs? certainly not the `mad mullah`s whom so many on chowk despise...!!
zahraj--two of the men in that photo are awliya: saints of Allah. The old man lives in conditions of extreme poverty in the deserts of mauritania. the other one is from hadramawt in yemen--hardly a rich place in the material sense. such clothing is a) sunnah (b) protects against the fierce sun. sp lease don`t judge a book by its cover. you can look foolish sometimes!!
sorry to hear you are ill...
zahraj--two of the men in that photo are awliya: saints of Allah. The old man lives in conditions of extreme poverty in the deserts of mauritania. the other one is from hadramawt in yemen--hardly a rich place in the material sense. such clothing is a) sunnah (b) protects against the fierce sun. sp lease don`t judge a book by its cover. you can look foolish sometimes!!
sorry to hear you are ill...
#159 Posted by sajal on May 20, 2005 2:58:16 pm
RE: Rahul and Saminasha,
Thankyou for your appreciation.
Thankyou for your appreciation.
#160 Posted by ZahraJ on May 20, 2005 2:59:01 pm
Re: # 158
Naqshbandi:
So the aulia are allowed to follow the sunnah of covering themselves against the scorching heat. What about the poor guy the aulia are examining? Shouldn`t the aulia try to provide him with some proper clothing first and then think about their own needs?
By the way, what was the sense of posting the heavenly picture on this board? A Bimsal`s write-up had no need for these auliae` karaam. It seems that you are out of your mind to post such pictures on a board where the heroine of this story is exploring her sexuality and then deciding which route to opt. Is it even polite to post the pictures of bushy na-mehram aulia on this board? What was your intent? Did you want A Bismal to route Fauzia to these Buzurganae Deen? Or did you want the rejected men to consult the Buzurganae Deen for guidance?
Who is being foolish here?
Naqshbandi:
So the aulia are allowed to follow the sunnah of covering themselves against the scorching heat. What about the poor guy the aulia are examining? Shouldn`t the aulia try to provide him with some proper clothing first and then think about their own needs?
By the way, what was the sense of posting the heavenly picture on this board? A Bimsal`s write-up had no need for these auliae` karaam. It seems that you are out of your mind to post such pictures on a board where the heroine of this story is exploring her sexuality and then deciding which route to opt. Is it even polite to post the pictures of bushy na-mehram aulia on this board? What was your intent? Did you want A Bismal to route Fauzia to these Buzurganae Deen? Or did you want the rejected men to consult the Buzurganae Deen for guidance?
Who is being foolish here?
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