Compounded Waste

# 70:

back to simplicity a la amrita:)

question: is there any justification in the qur`an for suicide bombing?

answer that then we can possibly talk more

rgds

t

#68

I’m not sure what your aim is, and I certainly don’t want to accuse you of anything until your admission.

aim? accuse? admission? ... if you read this and other articles by me your questions would be answered:)

Unfortunately not being a hafiz I cannot quote a specific verse that justifies acts like suicide bombing, even though I’m sure there is at least one if not more.

...just fyi...am not a hafiz either...but since you are sure then please quote it here...that is what i have been asking all along...(#65: one final filter)

quid pro quo

this is a good one...you have not answered my one question...yet indulge in this? interesting:)

ok i will answer one question...theek hay?

Question 1: Why is suicide bombing (one of few weapons of a poorly armed resistence group) more deplorable for you than nuclear bombing, cluster bombing, and use of chemical weapons like depleted uranium that cause many times more “collateral damage” than suicide bombings?

more deplorable? or even less? for me?... where do you come with these ideas and the attribute them to me? kamal hay yaar! (shaking me head)...

...frankly i don`t know if you do this deliberately and maliciously or innocently... you assume my position and try to set up straw arguments against that assumption...

..so back to the original question...re: justificationof suicide bombing in qur`an:)

rgds

t

Re: # 69

...just fyi...am not a hafiz either...but since you are sure then please quote it here...that is what i have been asking all along...(#65: one final filter)
As I’ve said before, yours is an inherently FLAWED question to begin with since it excludes the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh) and ahadith Qudsi, without which Islam could not be comprehended in its entirety.

It is designed to discredit defenders of Islam and turn the chickened Muslims against the fighters to keep the latter from deploying their most effective weapon which has historically been used only in defense.

Not being hafiz is even more a reason for both of us NOT to throw in specific verses of Quran merely to win arguments, lest we err in narrating Allah; if you can fathom the consequences of that.

According to the Prophet (pbuh), anyone who misinterprets Quran, or offers an explanation of verses without appropriate knowledge, will land in the hellfire. He (pbuh) himself never offered the explanation for “alif-laam-meem” and other such verses because Allah had not given him this knowledge or did not allow him (pbuh) to tell the people...Allah knows best.

The example: the first verse Dr. M. Khan has quoted in reference to suicide is not exactly per context if you care to read the tafseer. Suicide IS haram except under two circumstance (mind you this may or may not be amongst the reasons for suicide bombings; several factors have to be taken into account for that):

(1) a woman is permitted to commit suicide to prevent rape, as post rape trauma is quite often devastating for her even with family support etc.

(2) a Muslim soldier when captured by enemy can commit suicide if his captivity endangers the Muslims. The simple reason for the two exceptions are the extreme circumstances.

this is a good one...you have not answered my one question...yet indulge in this? interesting:)
The question is answered, again, above viz FLAW.

Secondly, kindly review the text in my post (#68) beginning with According to Quran, fighting is strictly forbidden in masijd-alharam… I could give you the specific verse number too to win this argument, but I’d rather you find it yourself as winning an argument is not my objective. I will tell you this much that this verse is in Sura Baqra.

I repeat: deploy your research skills and read the Books, instead of asking others to provide with specific verses to prove/disprove arguments.

more deplorable? or even less? for me?... where do you come with these ideas and the attribute them to me? kamal hay yaar! (shaking me head)...

...frankly i don`t know if you do this deliberately and maliciously or innocently... you assume my position and try to set up straw arguments against that assumption...
Meray chandaa…don’t shake your head, lest you get a chouk. This is nothing more than a futile defense; not an answer to the simple question?

But then again, you never laid out “moderate Islam” definition in one of my previous posts either.

Again, we’ll continue to run in circles around this issue and others as long as we’re not on the same wavelength when discussing the prescribed and proscribed in Islam.

For that to happen, either you convince me that Prophet (pbuh) ever contradicted the Quran, or accept that he (pbuh) never did and then read his biography, ahadith etc. The reason is simple: just as we look towards scientists – authority on a specific science – to understand the subject, we need to look at the ultimate authority on Quran to understand it in its entirety. Without a doubt, that authority is the Prophet (pbuh), and without his (pbuh) teachings no one could understand Quran comprehensively. If one could, then Allah wouldn`t need to reveal it to Mohammad (pbuh) only. Instead, He could have just shipped us out with complete text and interpretations embedded in our brains.

regards

... and the rest, as they say, is history. Or is it?

History does repeat itself if we fail to learn from it. Over the course of time, weak becomes strong ... and vice versa. Unless we learn to be patient and to forgive, the cycle of violence will continue forever.

Let`s all of us take steps towards peaceful solutions. This is what the dear Prophet (pbuh) taught us and this is what the Book of Allah teaches us. And if in process one gets shortchanged, remember ... we will all return to the same place ... and each of us will have to account for what we did ... not for what someone else did to us. And He indeed is Just and Merciful ... so stay the course and don`t lose hope.

Re: # 65 by temporal & 66,67 by sattar2

temporal and Sattar,

Sorry for the delayed and joint response to you both, but this is the first opportunity I’ve had to respond to you.

Sattar,

Touche on #67! Muslims are guilty of a lot of crimes, as I`ve maintained previously, but that does not warrant a change in Islam. Unfortunately, neither does it prove your points.

I hope you did not miss my argument deliberately, although it seems so. I’ve been saying exactly the same thing consistently, i.e. if one’s apostasy does not threaten the society at large, then he/she is to be left alone according to Quran. Otherwise in case he/she poses a threat of any kind: social, moral, physical, security, whatever, should be killed.

Same was the case with McVeigh: his “BELIEF” that the US govt. was exploiting its own people LED him to his ACTION. Therefore, as longs such beliefs are not followed by destructive acts, the person is spared.

The rational conclusion then is that “blasphemy” is the most probable outcome of apostasy and disbelief; as we’ve witnessed here on many occasions by different individuals. At the minimum it attempts to lead the believers astray; certainly your own faith, if it is True Islam, seems shaken. Thus, an apostate is to be dealt with swiftly and firmly. No chances should be taken without a promise from the apostate that he/she will not disturb the Muslim society in any manner whatsoever, and the breach of that promise should be punished severely. One is free to leave Islam as it is between him/her and Allah, but he/she is NOT allowed to rock the boat, especially when there’s a great danger of it capsizing.

Quran and Sunnah are not to be blamed if some ignorant mullah/scholars abuse the Shar`iah.

Temporal,

I can’t say if you’re deliberate in your attempt, but you’re mixing the war-time and peace-time paradigms vis-à-vis respect for life and liberty, just like the non-Muslims. Their aim is to gain easier submission of Muslims (or whoever they attack without due reason) disguised as freedom and democracy. I’m not sure what your aim is, and I certainly don’t want to accuse you of anything until your admission.

Unfortunately not being a hafiz I cannot quote a specific verse that justifies acts like suicide bombing, even though I’m sure there is at least one if not more. One only needs to study the history of Islam – including the life of the Prophet (pbuh) – and earlier battles/wars to see that.

Quran vehemently emphasizes on respect for life and liberties of the Muslims and non-Muslims; and great care must be taken to prevent any loss in this respect. However, ALL parties have to respect this convention equally and in deed – one party cannot be responsible for it alone as it is a two-way street.

For example:
According to Quran, fighting is strictly forbidden in masijd-alharam (the immediate surrounding worshiping area of the Ka’aba), but Muslims also have crystal clear instruction in the same verse to fight back if they’re attacked in the sacred mosque until death, or the enemy desists; or the enemy is annihilated. If the enemy begs forgiveness upon defeat then he can be forgiven conditionally. Surrender to the mightier army is not an option! This may harm some innocent of our own in the process, such is the price of life and liberty.

quid pro quo
Question 1: Why is suicide bombing (one of few weapons of a poorly armed resistence group) more deplorable for you than nuclear bombing, cluster bombing, and use of chemical weapons like depleted uranium that cause many times more “collateral damage” than suicide bombings?

Question 2: Why do you imply submission to the invaders just because they are militarily mightier as opposed to fighting for one’s rights?

Question 3: If you negate my assumption in 2, then how do you suggest Muslims should fight to defend their faith and homes?

Question 4: Do you still believe that the current struggle between Muslims and Non-Muslims is not about destroying Islamic faith, even after the latest news out of Uzbekistan and Newsweek debacle? FYI, incidents of disrespecting Quran have been reported by well-recognized agencies before and you can witness the summary here.

Please do not say that Muslims started this war with 9/11. This crap has been going on for far too long than anti-Muslims and ignorant Muslims care to admit.

Here’s a quote from one of their “civilized” leaders, Sir Winston Churchill: “I’m strongly in favor of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.. It is not necessary only to use the most deadly gases: gases can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects of most of those affected.`` (1919). The quote in the preceding link is followed (in the same para) by ``Colonel Gerald Leachman, a leading British officer declares that the only way to deal with the tribes is `wholesale slaughter`. The RAF Middle Eastern Command request chemical weapons to use `against recalcitrant Arabs as (an) experiment```. More than one of top US brass has made similar comments in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

What people conveniently render as “blunders” on part of US & UK are in fact premeditated schemes, and the trickling of truth (memos, whistleblowers, et al) in bits and pieces illuminate this fact vividly if one cares to keep up with the news from both sides of the conflict.

Anyhow, being “aware” of the other filters is not enough to be a true Muslim; one MUST believe in them too. Otherwise, his/her understanding of Quran will remain incomplete.

I suppose you’re not about to agree to it until you recognize that Prophet (pbuh) is just as important in Islam as the Quran; and that he`s utterly infallible.

That he (pbuh) NEVER, EVER, contradicted Quran; he simply could not contradict the Quran as he was The Embodiment of Quran; a perfect example of how Quran should be understood and followed. But you can only see this fact IF you study the Quran and the Sunnah both. Otherwise, it’ll not become apparent to you.

Allah raised him (pbuh) as the most truthful and the most trustworthy man to the point that even his archenemies could not deny his (pbuh) character.

Subsequently it was through the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) – the undisputedly truthful and trustworthy personality of the past, present, and future – that Quran was revealed to humanity.

That is THE reason that In the Quran Allah repeatedly tells us – not asks or requests or suggests to us – to obey the Prophet (pbuh) if we seek His Pleasure.

Then to claim that he (pbuh) contradicted Quran is in fact:
- selective belief in the Quran, which in turn leads to
- “selective” faith in Allah, which is
- Unacceptable for Allah and He has grievous chastisement for people guilty of this sin as you must have read in the Quran

Just think about your logic:
1. how can an apostate – ``an UNBELIEVER in Allah`` - ask for His Mercy
2. on one hand you claim to follow only the Quran; but then you violate its instruction to obey and follow Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) with the pretext that he contradicted the Quran; and you don’t even provide a irrefutable proof either.

Until and unless the two of you come to terms with aforementioned simple basics of Islam, your alignment in faith will remain skewed and you will continue to veer left of the True moderate Islamic line. Not to mention your attempts to understand the intricacies of this religion will be futile.

So if you wish for a fruitful discussion, as opposed to current beating of a dead horse, then get yourselves educated in both the Quran and authentic ahadith so all of us could our time more effectively. As it appears now, I quite certain you’ve never studied the Quran on your own since you consistently quote one person or another as per your argumentative needs.

ntsyed ...

On McVeigh issue, first word of your response … Action … gives the answer. He was executed not for his belief … not for being left-handed … but for this actions. His “apostasy to US government” is not an issue … otherwise thousands more would be executed on daily basis.

Apostasy is purely a matter of faith. But your mullahs insist that an apostate should be killed. On a slightly different note, these mullahs also pressured government of Pakistan to pass laws to imprison Ahmadis for posing like a Muslim … for reciting kalima, for praying in public, for saying as’salam-o-alaikom. Persecution of Ahmadis is a shameless chapter from recent history of ullema’s Islam. Don’t tell me that I am misinformed. These are signs of insecurity and intolerance, which have led ummah to a culture of violence and brutality.

On blasphemy against the Prophet (pbuh), your point as I have understood is that … blasphemy against the prophet threatened the very fabric of society and Islam. My response in #63 addressed this adequately.

Furthermore, Quran addresses issues of adultery, blasphemy, and apostasy in several places. It guides believers on dealing with these issues … without any mention of death for the perpetrators. Following recorded ahadith that violate Quran is foolish in my view. If a recorded hadith violates Quran, it (the hadith) becomes erroneous in my view.

Following are some excerpts from writings of Maudoodi … that highlight ullema’s fanatic and violent positions on various issues. This is one side of the coin that you have ignored all along. Neocons are the other side of the coin, that you remain infatuated with. Look both ways before crossing a street ...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

APOSTASY

Elaborating on killing of apostates and “no compulsion in religion” commandment of Quran … Maudoodi explains: “This means we do not compel anyone to embrace our religion. This is true. But we must warn anyone who wishes to recant that this door is impassable to free traffic. If you wish to come, do so with the firm decision that your cannot escape.”

He further states:

“There are two methods of dealing with an apostate. Either make him an outlaw by depriving him of his citizenship and allowing him mere existence, or end his life. The first method is definitely more severe than the second, because he exists in a state in which ‘neither lives nor dies’. Killing him is preferable. That way both his agony and the agony of society are ended simultaneously.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), page 51.

MORE ON APOSTASY

“In our domain we neither allow any Muslim to change his religion nor allow any other religion to propagate its faith”

And

“The execution of apostates has already decided the issue. Since we do not allow any Muslim to embrace any other religion, the question of allowing other religions to open their missions and propagate their faiths within our boundaries does not rise.”

Maudoodi, Murtad Ki Saza Islami Qanoon Mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1981, 8th edition, page 32.


MORE ON APOSTASY AND ISLAMIC REVOLUTION

“Whenever death penalty for apostasy is enforced in a new Islamic state, then Muslims are kept within Islam’s fold. But there is a danger that large number of hypocrites will live alongside them. They will always pose a danger of treason.

My solution to the problem is this. That whenever an Islamic revolution takes place, all non-practicing Muslims should, within one year, declare their turning away from Islam and get out of Muslim society. After one year all born Muslims will be considered Muslims. All Islamic laws will be enforced upon them. They will be forced to practice all of the obligatory duties (faraid) and optional duties (wajibat) of their religion and if anyone wishes to leave Islam, he will be executed. Every effort will be made to save as many people as possible from falling into lap of disbelief (kufr). But those who cannot be saved will be reluctantly separated from society forever. After this purification Islamic society will start afresh with Muslims who have decided voluntarily to remain Muslims.

Maudoodi, Murtad ki saza Islami qanoon mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1950, page 80-81.


FOREIGN POLICY AND JIHAD

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”

[The above statement is an open declaration of war against other nations. It essentially means that a strong Islamic nation is a sign of present and eminent danger for the neighboring non-Islamic states. Maudoodi tries to validate his interpretation by casting Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as a person who declared war against other nations to subjugate them. Note the emphasis on unprovoked war … associated with the Prophet of Islam … whose sole aim supposedly was to seize power and rule over others. Maudoodi further states …]

“This was the policy which was adopted by the Prophet (pbuh) and his Rightly Guided Caliphs. Arabia, where the Muslims Party was first formed, was the first to be subdued. After this, the Prophet (pbuh) sent invitations to all neighboring countries, but did not wait to see whether these invitations were accepted. As soon as he acquired power, he started the conflict with Roman Empire. Abu Bakr became the leader of the Party after the Prophet (pbuh) and attacked both Roman and Persian Empires and Umar finally won the war”

Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65

#64:

am aware of the `other filters`... but there is only one final filter...the word of Allah...

...is an act of the magnitude of suicide bombing mentioned, condoned, discussed in any way in qur`an?... if not then what does the book say about respect for life and liberty of individuals...muslims and non-muslims?...

...use any filter you want:)...then we can review it in the light of the final filter

rgds

t

ntsyed,

Tim McVeigh was executed not for his belief … but for his actions. Note the subtle difference. His execution had nothing to do with who he worshipped.

Check with cousin Urstruly. He believes that apostates should be killed ... based upon alleged ahadith, as explaind by the rightly guided ullema of our times. Don’t kid yourself.

If I correctly recall your post on the slave-woman issue … you argued that by blaspheming the Prophet (pbuh), this woman threatened the very essence of Islam. Note that this Prophet (pbuh) stood firmly against evil propaganda, physical and emotional abuse, and invading armies … and compromised neither his dignity, nor the dignity of his enemies. He was most forgiving and patient with everyone. However, he felt threatened by a defenseless slave woman and condoned her brutal killing! I don’t think so … this is too much of a contradiction … the story does not add up ...

However, by your reasoning, uncle sam too is justified in wiping out the madrissah culture … as this culture breeds hatred against the west. Note the inevitable result of such reasoning ... which you employ and which the neocons have employed. And that`s the point of this article ...

#61:

you are not alone who has family and responsibilities:)

i was not lamenting who started or did not start the discussion...this is what i wrote...emphasis added.... your reply in #59 to a simple but relevant query is a non-starter...

forgive this little digression...islam is a simple religion, not a complex one...and when push comes to shove all actions can and should be seen through the qur`anic filter...if there is no justification in qur`an for an act that affects all muslims then it is safe to say it is not islamic...

rgds

t

Re: # 62

temporal: ``islam is a simple religion, not a complex one...and when push comes to shove all actions can and should be seen through the qur`anic filter...

No arguments there. It`s in your following comment: if there is no justification in qur`an for an act that affects all muslims then it is safe to say it is not islamic... ``

The filter has another couple of layers:
1. ahadith Qudsi - Allah`s revelations to the Prophet (saw) that are not part of the Quran as per Allah`s instruction to the Prophet (saw), but recorded with equal care by the Prophet (saw) and his companions (ra); and

2. authentic ahadith of the Prophet (pbuh) as he never said or did anything to contradict Allah.

Most notable scholars narrate the best of Companions of the Prophet (ra) that the Prophet (pbuh) said and did every single thing by Allah`s command.

While somethings may not be understood immediately by muslims at large becuase there aren`t any crystal clear Quranic verses justifying it, a layman can NOT issue an edict for them as ``unIslamic``.

One must conduct a research before rendering something Islamic or unIslamic because then one is directly narrating Allah, and an error could cost one his/her aakhira. Of course Allah if Oft Forgiving and Most Merciful, but He and His words should not be exploited by anyone, Muslim or non-Muslim. Thus, my repeated requests to you to research the topic according to the authentic ahadith as well. WWW and mainstream media are not the only sources of information on Islam.


Sattar,

Actions, especially premeditated like that of McVeigh, are driven by beliefs. His was an apostasy to the US government. While many Americans do not agree with the latter, they do not behave like McVeigh, thus do not suffer his fate. Same thing with apostasy to Allah. Is that subtle enough?

You didn`t read my post at the link I provided to you in #58, did you? Please do it for your sanity`s sake...you`re going nuts trying to defend the indefensible.

As it appears, just like me you don`t like the neocons/zionist either, but your lack of pre and post Islamic history (not just arabia, but europe as well), Quran, and ahadith make you think that Muslims have provided them a reason to do what they`re doing. Your lack of knowledge on this issue is their most powerful weapon - disinformation to cause infighting amongst the Muslims. While no one could (or does) claim that Muslims are perfect, it simply doesn`t mean Islam is at fault.

I do not agree with Hinduism, Christianity or any other religion, neither do I have an indepth knowledge of these, but have you (or anyone here) ever seen me challenging any of those beliefs?

Why is it so difficult for you to understand?

#59:

i had to prod you because you disappeared:)

i hope i do not disappoint you by not getting personal?

your reply in #59 to a simple but relevant query is a non-starter...and you are aware of the reasons...i chose hamid mir intentitonally...he is no poster boy for the lib-left crowd...if anything he is right of center...and much touted and quoted by the abdul-hate brigade here...

rgds

t

Re: # 60

With a day job and family responsibilities, intermittent disappearances are to be expected :-)~~

Not at all :-)~~

The query appears simple, but simplicity isn`t always flawless ;-)~~

Since you started the topic, starting or not is your option.

I`m sorry, but I don`t follow Hamid Mir anywhere, so I can`t comment on his political orientation. I just know he`s one of the two who interviewed AQ leadership. He landed on C-SPAN to say what he did. The other, Taysir Al`ouni of Al Jazeera Network, who brought the US and Coalitions atrocities in Afghanistan to the people worldwide, landed in jail on apparently trumped up charges of complicity in 9/11 plot for . Go figure :-)~~

Regards to you too :-)~~

ntsyed

Ref amrita #54

Rita darling, don`t you break your little head over things like war and bombs. Just leave that to men to deal with. You should concentrate on boards dealing with The Pill, Abortion Rights, etc., here on Chowk. And if you have any free time left -- that is, after pondering whether your lipstick matches your handbag or not -- write a big article on why men don`t leave the toilet seat down.

To brighten your day, I am going to tell you this little joke. It even has The Bomb in it!

Midwesterner #1: Did you hear that the Russians dropped a neutron bomb on New York City? No damage was done to buildings, tunnels, etc., but the radiation did change New Yorkers into mutants.

Midwesterner #2: How can anyone tell?

Re: # 56,

Wow, I really got to you. tsk tsk tsk.

LOL!!!

harimau meow-meow (no, it is not growl growl):

on second thought, naaah forget it!

ana

harimau #52

`` Don`t you have a Gay/Lesbo parade to march in this weekend? ``

what is wrong in marching in a gay/lesbain parade ?

Ref amrita #50

Don`t you have a Gay/Lesbo parade to march in this weekend?

amrita #34

`` Jang - we completely differ on the proven efficiency of nuclear bombs. First of all that was a 50 kilotonne bomb that was dropped on H&N - the average bomb today is 150 kilotonne. H&N were relatively small potatoes compared to say Bombay, the primary target if Pakistan decides to bomb India. The kind of devastation that can come in its wake was actually calculated by an Indian prof from MIT I think, lemme know and I`ll find out the name - its very intersting and all the more shocking when you think its a conservative estimate. So the only efficiency, to me, is in bringing death and perhaps as a deterrent. People are actually rethinking the deterrent angle right now. ``

The yield of the Indian nukes was 45 kT. Pakistani nukes had yields ranging from 6kT to 15 KT. I doubt Pakistan has 150 kT nuke unless China gave them the design.

`` The nuclear option was unnecessary in Japan, as has been admitted by the Allied forces and esp America repeatedly. Yes, it hastened the end but analysts and military historians have always agreed that the war wouldnt have lasted much longer and once the war was over, the Japanese were anyway headed right where they are today. Minus the deformed babies, the new caste of untouchables [the descendants of H&N arent welcome to marry into most `untainted` families irrespective of their visible health], the inceased rates of cancer, shortened life expectancies and rare diseases. The nukes were an experiment and they were a tool to humiliate. They werent a favor of any kind and you`ll never find a Japanese person who`d say so.``

Give America the credit of rebuilding their old adversary into a powerful peaceful country. Japan is the second most powerful state in the world. Please show us something comparable in history.

Re: # 51

I`ll give America whatever credit you wish - but you have to admit that the nuke option was unnecessary and America itself admitted so. My point is that the kind of devastation that nukes can unleash today [and personally I dont trust China as far as I can throw it, bhai bhai or no bhai bhai] is much greater than the H&N ones. Japan`s achevements are wonderful but they werent headed in a dramatically different direction without the bomb. And also, India and Pakistan are no Japan and America are they?

&

Harimou - post was a perfect example of bubble living and wishful thinking: you`re firing potshots at random and hoping something will stick in my craw. Well, try again... an LGBT parade isnt my weak spot.

Awww… I seem to have touched all kinds of nerves. You see, what you will never understand is that you’ve become irrelevant before you were ever able to establish your relevancy thanks entirely to your own efforts. All you can do is piss into the wind and cackle like a hyena in the vain hope that a little of the spray will make it in the direction you pointed it at.

You are welcome to think what you wish about my life and my contribution to the world or how much of it I have seen – it makes absolutely no difference to me because I know what I have accomplished and there are a lot of people around the world [who matter a great deal more than a little pissant like you] who also know what I have accomplished and in the end, that is what matters the most. I am not looking for validation from you or your kind. So your hopeful imprecations only serve to show you up for the irrelevant rabid dog that you are. And I say this not in a fit of anger or in a hope to put you down, mind you – but as a dispassionate observer of your silly antics. Please don’t ever think I am angry at you – amused yes, occasionally irritated, I frequently ignore you too but I have yet to be angered by you. I keep my anger for those who matter.

I tell you what – I am willing to look into the eyes of any person whose life my views may affect or about whose life I have an opinion, and repeat every one of my views to their face and defend them too. I have the guts and the conviction and it extends far beyond my taxes and posts on a website. How about you? In post 40 you made some noises – about the people of Dharavi, liberals and MV Ramanna.

I put it to you that the only group or person out of those three that you will be willing to repeat your suggestions to, face to face, are the liberals. And that too, only if you’re sure that they don’t belong to the radical left and aren’t your equivalents on the left. The day you can put a face to your inane suggestions and have the guts to repeat face to face your convictions to the people you hope to affect [and this means you go to Dharavi and tell em - severally and individually - how your solution to their problem is a nuclear explosion and to Allahabad and tell em how you`re tired of them being illiterate and what they need is a bomb] – come back and we’ll talk and I`ll help set up the meetings in both cities.

Oh I forgot – you don’t know how to talk…. All you can do is rant and rave and when you’re shown up in that you begin to froth and then you want to kill em all but don’t have the guts for it and do a sudden volte face and offer lines like “the only rational thing…vote for political parties”. Bah!

Am I supposed to get upset when something like you gets in my face? High hopes.

Ref American Rita #42

[Harimou - the real difference between you and the jehadis you profess to despise is that they have the connections and sufficient daring to carry out their fantasies. You, on the other hand, are only capable of talking and talking and talking and talking and.... And you arent even very good at that or else you would have accomplished enough at your age to stop frothing at the mouth every time someone has an opinion differing from yours.]

Actually, I do support my opinions the only legally correct way: contribute to political parties/candidates that mostly agree with my viewpoints. Also, my taxes have paid for the F-16s that Pakistan received and will again receive in the future so that I can claim to have supported at least some part of my wishes to nuke Bombay.

You on the other hand are the archetype of the hand-wringing, fund-raising through bake sale, street matching liberal who hasn`t accomplished squat for all her efforts. I wouldn`t be surprised if your favorite candidate during the last Presidential election was Dennis Kucinich. Your personal efforts at bridge-building with our neighbors through a Bangladeshi boyfriend also seem to have come to naught both on the personal front and on the political front as can be seen by the killing of an Indian oficer by Bangladesh.

Frothing at the mouth is the result of congregating with rabid Commie/Liberal/Secularist dogs. All your friends would belong to this category with the exception of the Iraqi ragheads that you would have picked up in the last three years.

[Anyhoo, it appears you never leave your state or read the paper or watch TV because its pretty common knowledge that there is considerably more to Bbay than Dharavi - there are the thousands of commuters who come into the city to work as well as all those hardworking millions who`ve already made Bbay their home, for eg.]

Have you ventured outside Greenwich Village, NYC? Shut up and don`t talk about things you are clueless about, which is almost everything. As far as the hardworking Mumbaikars and the commuters, they are replaceable cogs in the wheel too. If they go up in smoke, that is no skin off my nose.

As I used to tell North Indians, the only trouble with the Indian nuclear tests was that they were carried out underground. Low-altitude tests over Allahabad would have accomplished so much more! Can you think of a single weapon more powerful against illiteracy? I don`t think so!

[Right - now go back to your comfortable rants and dream a little dream where only your irrelevant opinion carries weight.]

Yep, it is because of your street demonstrations that yesterday Bush announced that he is withdrawing from Iraq.

``Compunded waste`` describes you to a T.

ntsyed (re #44):

“… Very simple - live and let live! …

Apply this rule to people of other faiths also. Insisting that some circumstances require that they be killed … is hypocrisy.

…. if some wish to live in the 7th century arabia, why is it a problem for anyone …”

And if someone wishes to leave Islam … why is it a problem for you? You’d rather have this person killed for apostasy. Same goes for blasphemy (recall your support for the recorded “pregnant slave” hadith).

Ummah is reaping what it sowed. This would be a good time to reflect. Sahib, temporal is one of the most thoughtful person around. Efforts such as his at waking people’s conscience are probably ummah’s last hope out of the quagmire they are in. Don’t upset the only civilized guy on your side …

[… didn’t mean to put you on the spot, t bhai … magar yaar, haramee-pun ke bhe hud hoti hai …]

Re: # 48

Apply this rule to people of other faiths also.
Read my post again without your dyslexia and you’ll find more faiths listed along with Islam.

Insisting that some circumstances require that they be killed … is hypocrisy.
Really Sattu? OMG, why was your hero Tim McVeigh executed?

And if someone wishes to leave Islam … why is it a problem for you? You’d rather have this person killed for apostasy. Same goes for blasphemy (recall your support for the recorded “pregnant slave” hadith).
No problem here Dry Sattu… IF, you keep your apostate self in check and NOT pose a threat to the society in any manner you’ll be safe. For blasphemy, read my post to teshah at A Journey Through Our Conscience: #299 after you’ve cleared the gunk from your eyes. Ample reasons are provided there to put you back on your prescription of talking to my hand.

Ummah is reaping what it sowed. This would be a good time to reflect. Sahib, temporal is one of the most thoughtful person around. Efforts such as his at waking people’s conscience are probably ummah’s last hope out of the quagmire they are in. Don’t upset the only civilized guy on your side …
Ummah has yet to begin reaping the latest harvest. In the last harvest they enjoyed the superpower status for more or less a millennium. ;-)~~

He may very well be a thoughtful person, although he hasn’t proven so when it comes to Islam. On this particular issue he seems to follow the Pied piper and parrot the predominant anti-Muslim media. The only thing is that he does it better than you. Hence, your admiration for him is understandable and commendable. Ironically though, your endorsement hurts his credibility even more so. ;-)~~

Nevertheless, it`s not him or I or any other human who will get the Ummah out of the current turmoil...Almighty Allah will. Rest assured when He does, apostates will be flocking back to Islam.

[… didn’t mean to put you on the spot, t bhai … magar yaar, haramee-pun ke bhe hud hoti hai …]
Thank you for your gali-gufta… you have no idea what it does for my aakhira. ;-)~~

Ciao kiddo

#44:

I`m sure your two eyes would want to pop out of your head.

am moved by your concern for my vision

now, you answer the query that haimd mir asked osama ...with the ayah number, please...then we will talk more....

rgds,

t

Re: # 47

temporal,

Considering your lack of vision on this topic, I’m neither worried about nor did I refer to it. The vision refers to the ability (not restricted to eyesight) to “see”, not just “look”, at things, not just tangible objects, at considerable distances in all possible directions. So, it’s your “eye-balls” I was referring to in literal terms.

Anyhow… firstly, Hamid Mir’s question is inherently flawed; and you and your ilk have adopted it for same reason as his – to be accepted by the Western might to avoid DHS, gitmo, etc.

It is flawed because it excludes the Ahadith Qudsi, and the Sahih ahadith (authentic traditions) of the Prophet (saw) for substantiation. Exclusion of these is to maintain belligerent unbelief in the footsteps of Abu Jahal, Abu Lahab, current neocons and Zionists, and their ilk across the globe throughout the last 1400 years.

Such tactics are also a trademark of the hypocrites who twist the Quranic verses to suit their personal short-term agenda.

As I’ve always maintained, Quran cannot be understood in its entirety without those two critical elements. Any attempt to do so leads to innovation (bid’a), which in turn leads to damnation. So study all three elements for yourself instead of copying and pasting others to reinforce your ignorance.

I can provide you with ample evidence to answer your query, and it will be thorough enough to keep your mind spinning out of control for years to come. But judging from your Hamid Mir stance and bullhorn functionality for the Zionist/Neocon propaganda to modify Islam ever since I’ve been here, you’re not open, or aren’t matured enough, to debate the ground realities with an open mind.

However, if you are sincerely looking for evidence, it should not be a problem for to conduct a minor research (since you’ve already alluded to some reasons in this direction) to find your answers, instead of looking at others to provide you with one. Majority of mainstream Muslims are not silent without a reason…most of them are capable of looking at both sides of the picture unlike some self-proclaimed “moderate” myopic Muslims. Speaking of so-called “moderate Muslims”, you or your ilk have yet to define the term in a crystal clear manner.

Once you’ve done the research, and made your own conclusions instead of parroting other’s, then being at same level we’ll talk.

ntsyed

harimou, dharavi is a very productive multi-purpose residential-cum-industrial-cum shopping zone, and its GDP is more than that of chennai, code-coolies included. why would you want to nuke it?

This ``Compounded Waste`` has elicited 41 interacts(including mine).I lost a bet i made with a friend of mine whom i forced to read this essay for the purpose of betting on the no.of interacts.I now have to buy dinner also.Drats.

Ref amrita #34

[.... First of all that was a 50 kilotonne bomb that was dropped on H&N - the average bomb today is 150 kilotonne.]

The bombs are estimated to be at 12 kilotons and 20 kilotons for Hiroshima and Nagasaki respectively.

[H&N were relatively small potatoes compared to say Bombay, the primary target if Pakistan decides to bomb India. The kind of devastation that can come in its wake was actually calculated by an Indian prof from MIT I think, lemme know and I`ll find out the name - its very intersting and all the more shocking when you think its a conservative estimate. So the only efficiency, to me, is in bringing death and perhaps as a deterrent. People are actually rethinking the deterrent angle right now.]

You mean Dharavi, the pride of you frikking liberals and self-proclaimed do-gooders as the biggest slum in Asia, will get wiped out and also sterilized in the bargain? I think we should PAY Pakistan to nuke Bombay. Let Teesta Setalvad and Medha Patkar go to the Supreme Court ex post facto and try to get an injunction! Ha, ha, ha!

Is that peacenik you are talking about M V Ramana? Mount him on top of the nosecone of the Pak missile delivering The Bomb to Bombay, I say!

Re: # 40

Harimou - the real difference between you and the jehadis you profess to despise is that they have the connections and sufficient daring to carry out their fantasies. You, on the other hand, are only capable of talking and talking and talking and talking and.... And you arent even very good at that or else you would have accomplished enough at your age to stop frothing at the mouth every time someone has an opinion differing from yours.

Anyhoo, it appears you never leave your state or read the paper or watch TV because its pretty common knowledge that there is considerably more to Bbay than Dharavi - there are the thousands of commuters who come into the city to work as well as all those hardworking millions who`ve already made Bbay their home, for eg.

Right - now go back to your comfortable rants and dream a little dream where only your irrelevant opinion carries weight.

#2 by Urstruly on May 9, 2005 1:21pm PT

Osama gave Americans no choice but to come after him. Americans replied with a few cruise missiles prior to Sep-11.

dl#35:

...its all words mere words and yes, all writing is in the long-run just words..
...i smiled as i read above...iqra be ism e ...

...there was this anecdote that made the emails round...mentioning the total of eligible voters in a country...and then went on eliminating the possible voters...some were on vacation, some don`t vote, some vote for the opposition, some in jail and so on...the punch line was in the end the two voters that really mattered were the writer of that anecdote and the reader!

...perhaps nothing will come off this...in fact it is most likely that nothing will come off this...but let that not act as a deterrent...we...those who are quite and silent otherwise...must speak up...we must speak up otherwise we will continue to lose ground by default to the forces of evil...

Is it the mind or the conscience ? How can we assume either was absent in the bombers ?

this is the most intriguing and bothersome query...while i do not know for sure...nobody can...the suicide bombers do have a mind... the consience?...they must have, but it is turned off or clouded or superceded by programming and brain washing...

do you remember?

* the incident known as the JAMESTOWN MASSACRE?
* some years ago their was this lady-saint from the interior of punjab...she led her flock from there to karachi and hawkesbay (the beach)...and most perished in their attempt to walk on the water to reach najaf and karbala
* david koreish, waco, texas?

the folks that followed these leaders did have a mind and conscience...once...what snapped?...how was their better judgement clouded?...is mind susceptible to this kind of programming?...obviously

if they can be programmed then they can be de-programmed too...brainwashing and mind control can be superceded...we mustn`t give up!

lve

t

masses (people) of hiroshima were living under an antiquated imperialistic, casteist neo-samurai system, under which the elite ruled ruthlessly over proles who worked very hard with little say, and commited and occasional sepukku out of visions of grandeur. now (whosever survived unmaimed) lives free. not to mention rest of asia was relived of the rising-sun empire.

I like this approach!!! To free people of tyranny just kill or maim them. After all there is no tyranny in heaven.

Let`s adopt this approach to free all poor people of poverty.

India will become a much better place where there are no poor people and India will be catapulted into the league of first world nations.

Urstruly#21:
well if you are very clear that the dog and the underdog are both wrong then what kind of answers you are looking for.

..simplistic!....the inherent flaw with dog and underdog argument is obvious: the world is neither black nor white! the only thing crystal clear is OBL and GWB are sides of the same coin....

ana #23:
...most respectfully...we`re on the same page here:)

hamidm #24:
...clearly we differ...clearly we understand each other well...clearly we do no decapitate or send missionaries who would daisy-cutter the other...clearly we tolerate dissent...clearly we are no abdul-hates

so there`s hope:)

rgds

t

When I initially read this article, I chose not to interact and then Curiousity and I wondered why. My personal reason was thats its all words mere words and yes, all writing is in the long-run just words (to paraphrase loosely) but Iraq (as Darfur, Togo, Congo, and the usual suspects Kashmir, Palestine et al) is just so tragically self destructing (albeit with a little help from above as it were) thats it just makes the ineffectuality of words that much starker. Its Palestine all over again. The BBC resolutely stood its ground for a while but lately even they have given up and I can`t remember the last time they reported anything from Israel/Palestine.

There is the mental and emotional exhaustion/frustration with Iraq ad nauseam in the media. And then of course is the bigger question ... how can we begin to fathom what drives suicide bombers ? Unless we either live their lives in the Palestine for instance or go through the brainwashing that the trained operators go through ? With the latter do we run the risk of being converted ? Perfectly sane, wholesomely educated individuals have turned. What makes us susceptible or not ? Is it the mind or the conscience ? How can we assume either was absent in the bombers ?

dL

Jang - we completely differ on the proven efficiency of nuclear bombs. First of all that was a 50 kilotonne bomb that was dropped on H&N - the average bomb today is 150 kilotonne. H&N were relatively small potatoes compared to say Bombay, the primary target if Pakistan decides to bomb India. The kind of devastation that can come in its wake was actually calculated by an Indian prof from MIT I think, lemme know and I`ll find out the name - its very intersting and all the more shocking when you think its a conservative estimate. So the only efficiency, to me, is in bringing death and perhaps as a deterrent. People are actually rethinking the deterrent angle right now.

The nuclear option was unnecessary in Japan, as has been admitted by the Allied forces and esp America repeatedly. Yes, it hastened the end but analysts and military historians have always agreed that the war wouldnt have lasted much longer and once the war was over, the Japanese were anyway headed right where they are today. Minus the deformed babies, the new caste of untouchables [the descendants of H&N arent welcome to marry into most `untainted` families irrespective of their visible health], the inceased rates of cancer, shortened life expectancies and rare diseases. The nukes were an experiment and they were a tool to humiliate. They werent a favor of any kind and you`ll never find a Japanese person who`d say so.

raw dust,

you forget, or perhaps you never knew, and why should you that i have acknowledged time and time again, what has happened in the name of god be it zionist expansion (which has nothing to do with god) the iraqi invasion (which was not mandated by god), and all the suicide bombings, and abductions and murders which continue in iraq (and are not mandated by god).

the inquisition (forgive me for not calling it holy), and the islamic expansion -- if you want to go so far, it is difficult not to acknowledge these things when you know the number of lives that were affected by it. . . . india was changed forever to the point where now one can still hear, ``we as muslims ruled you once, and we will rule you again.`` there are examples which you have failed to mention. how about the expansion of the non-believers? no, wait they believed in something too. anyway, what was your point? i respect the fact that you have your opinion and i acknowledged that. now if you want to ridicule the fact that i do believe by suggesting that i do not acknowledge the lives of the innocents you refer to, then you are wasting your fingers typing that. the road to where i am now in terms of my belief or what some might refer to my unbelief, but nevertheless what i believe in has been long, it has had its potholes, and it has not ended.

if i haven`t made myself clear. . . then excuse me. but i`m not sure i want to deviate too much from this board (once i figure out what this board is about!) and i don`t want to get into any arguments vis-a-vis what either of us have said.

have you ever heard the song by steel pulse called ``not king james version``? it is one of my favorites: http://www.steelpulse.ndo.co.uk/babylon.html#Not%20King%20James%20Version
most of the album ``babylon the bandit`` is good if you dig reggae. :)
take care,
ana

#31: i agree with you 100%.

Re # 29

And what about the lives that were just wasted because they happen to be born in
wrong caste? They were not killed but for thousands of years they just rotted without even
a chance to alter their lives for bettter because they happened to be born in the wrong caste. What a waste of human lives and their potential!
I find that equally heinous as destroying a civilization just because they do not believe only in your set of belief. So Christianity and Islam are not the only to be blamed here.

ana the price paid by the japanese people and nation is obvious and horrible. i was merely making a point that the nuclear option has produced results in the past, morality is debatable, but that a change was forced is not. based on that example, weapons remains an option to force change, morality aside, due to proven efficacy.

and what about acknowledging the lives of Those innocents killed during the holy inquisition and during islamic expansion?
arent they supposed to be noticed first before my non-belief?

raw dust:

thank you. your non-belief is duly noted and since you asked to be excused, i excuse you.

ana

jang #19

are you missing the point of what amrita is referring to? you know of the countless people who are still affected by the bombs dropped on hiroshima and nagasaki fifty years ago. the survivors who suffer from the exposure to radiation, and have died as a result of that? or have had severe health problems. and still do.

yes the people of hiroshima do not live under an antiquated system anymore and so they are ``free``, but i suspect that was not what amrita was referring to. you put ``those who survived unmaimed`` in brackets. . . but many of the survivors are still ``maimed`` by what happened on that day. has their being showered by a nuclear cloud changed their life for the better, and how free are they from the effects of that day?

and same goes for Mohammad. if you threaten people with eternal condemnation you will bring the Worst out of them. this is what christianity and islam`s essence. every thing goes out of the window if you are faced with such a stupid-sounding yet scary Threat.

re#23:
jesus or in the name of jesus.. world has seen one of the most successful scam enterprise that has costed millions of innocent lives and suppressed hundreds of indigenous histories... invoking jesus` name is fine and dandy among the like-minded but excuse me for this...

t,

..... as i pointed out on javed`s board, there is no comparison between china and the muslim world ...... china has accepted the principles of modernity and at the individual level there is no conflict between the chinese and the west - heck most of the chinese businessmen i have met recently hava an ``american`` name in parenthesis on their business cards (no, they are not from hk - the hk guys have western names, period )........... the muslims, on the other hand, are hell bent on a clash of civilizations (if you can call seventh century bedouin culture a civilizaiton !) ...........and by islam`s definition there arn`t too many moderate muslims .......... to be honest, there are no civilians in this conflict - neither the folks who perished in ny on 9/11, nor the victims of suicide bombers in baghdad ............ i know it sounds horrible - but in order to fix the problem, we have to recognize it first ............almost forty million people died in ww-ii, this war has been a cake walk by comparison ............

i most respectfully submit that it is not jesus who failed. or gandhi or dr. king. we failed. if they gave us a light which is still burning then how could they have failed?

ye bhi sochnay ki baat hai o wise one.

ana

am: #14:

jang`s response was on an oft repeated quote here by me:

pehlay insaan, phir musalmaan: pehlay khuda, phir rasool: pehlay ta`alim phir tafheem...:)

A certain amount of haivaaniyat is also involved and everybody likes to justify it in diff ways. Thats why not every suicide bomber was born of Palestine.

...yes, being an insaan means controlling the dormant haiwaan in our self...it is when this inner barrier...this menmen is damaged or broken that the haiwaan is unleashed on the unsuspecting...aushwitz, `47, bosnia, rwanda, chechenya and others i mentioned in #10...resulting in more misery...

...wars and mitigated violence do not solve problems, they create them

...so what if ostensibly jesus, mkg, mlk and others failed...they lit a light...we stumble...but less...in that there is hope...the insaan will win...i fervently hope and pray...

lve

t

shishapa #12:

While you can get rid of likes of GWB`s peacefully or have to endure them probably not more than 8 or 12 years, how do you get rid of OBLs?

i understand what you are saying...but my concern is with the mindset they develop and leave behind...how to change and reverse that mentality...that thinking?

rgds

t

#17 by amrita

masses (people) of hiroshima were living under an antiquated imperialistic, casteist neo-samurai system, under which the elite ruled ruthlessly over proles who worked very hard with little say, and commited and occasional sepukku out of visions of grandeur. now (whosever survived unmaimed) lives free. not to mention rest of asia was relived of the rising-sun empire.

harish_hyd #5: and drlokraj # 8:
thanks


hamidm2 # 9:

..... the middlle east and the larger islamic world has to be cleansed and suicide bombers and civilian casualties are a small price to pay in order to secure the future of mankind ....

this is another twist on white man`s burden?... an impossibly hard sell in today`s global world...

... as long as aberrations like saudi arabia, syria and iran remain this will go on .......... america must stay the course, even if it takes fity years - this is not any different than the struggle against communism ........ freedom comes at a cost .........

...freedom? what freedom?...it is all slavery and subjugation by another name...like calling interest mark-up in so called islamic banking...

...i do not think on an esoteric level anyone is free...there is no absolute freedom...having said that...the limited freedom that is available in the west needs to be applauded and its absence in the thrid world deplored...

...and any criticism of the US should be mixed with applause too...only in the US the Zinns, Chomskys and Ekbal Ahmeds can freely speak their mind and not be silenced...only in the US abdul-hates can utter their says and survive!

...relative saftey and economic progress can be provided the populace in direct absence of the touted freedoms...paging exhibit A...China!

rgds

t

ozerkhalid #4:

But are US intransigence and Osama`s arrogance not two sides of the same coin ?... Both lieutenants of lunacy....?

yes, and both of them talk to God...with mere mortals caught in their spiral...

good quote `` What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the Holy name of liberty or democracy?

back to my query...how can we (those relatively living in safety) take steps to reduce the misery of the innocent civilians?

rgds

t

``You do what you do and hope to God that you dont live to wake up on a nuclear morning. ``

very interesting..hiroshima did wake up that way giving way to a forever changed japan (for the better)

Re: # 15
not the people in hiroshima who still live the consequences of that day.

t - jang said ``pehle insaan`` and I would like to say the same albeit in a slightly different context. When you wonder as a Muslim why other Muslims do something you as a Muslim see prohibited by the faith they ostensibly defend, you forget the insaaniyat of those Muslims and see them as they have presented themselves - Muslim. Period.

Insaaniyat is a positive term as used commonly, but man is not so far removed from his animal roots for all traces of it to have disappeared from his make up. A certain amount of haivaaniyat is also involved and everybody likes to justify it in diff ways. Thats why not every suicide bomber was born of Palestine.

For the rest there are no easy answers, there are no quick fixes and you know as well as I do that the blind cannot be forced to see. Its just a never ending run around the mulberry bush.

And those who see more to the issue than the bomb em, knife em, shoot em and solve it crowd [whoever or whichever religion they might be] have a longer run around their particular bush than any of the others. Its easier to kill people than live alongside them when you dont like what they have to say. If not even Gandhi or King - or if you want to take it further and religiously back, Jesus - could entirely carry the day, then what price us? You do what you do and hope to God that you dont live to wake up on a nuclear morning.

sattar2 # 3:

...how can this cycle be contained....

this is what i hope to learn from others here...am aware there are no simple answers...but there is something (sigh) that the silent majority can do to alleviate the sufferings of the innocents everywhere...even a little...even a drop...

rgds

t

While you can get rid of likes of GWB`s peacefully or have to endure them probably not more than 8 or 12 years, how do you get rid of OBLs?

Re: # 12

shishapa: While you can get rid of likes of GWB`s peacefully or have to endure them probably not more than 8 or 12 years, how do you get rid of OBLs?

Very simple - live and let live!

Most N American and Europeans understand and appreciate diverse cultures. But the few, influential individuals & groups (public and private) wish for Muslims to live like the non-Muslims in terms of lifestyles - interest infested banking, unbridled commercialization via sex and violence, immorality, beards, veils, blah blah blan. The Muslims were doing just fine until the former colonial masters started using the dictators` tyranny - the very bastards they had left behind to oppress the people on their behalf - to subjugate the whole people again for the sake of resources and power.

Even now, if some wish to live in the 7th century arabia, why is it a problem for anyone who wishes to live any other era - past, present, or future? The problem starts when one tries to force a parallelogram into an square slot. The oppressed masses, not just Muslims, if you care to look around the world, had to rise up sooner or later. In a dark sort of way I think we`re fortunate to witness it so our next generations (if survived) could live in a relative peace, as is the case with every storm or confrontation.

The problem with temporal lot is that they submitted to slavery back then, and they continue to submit now. Thus you see the ``need`` to change the value system vis a vis Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and whatever else that doesn`t allow the tyrannical few CIAs & GWBs of the world to jeopardize the survival of the entire species for a few quick bucks. Naturally, there will be OBL - right or wrong - to counter those forces. Like the latter said in one of his recent videos, stop messing with us and you will not be messed with. I suppose temporal was comatose when that solution made the headlines.

temporal, please use your research skills to dig up the truth on 9/11, Salvadoran Option, who benefits most with the sectarian violence, why it would not be good for the US to leave Iraq and the ME altogether. I`m sure your two eyes would want to pop out of your head.

Without the proper knowledge you sound worse than a broken record of rhetorics...more like a phata baans begging only for presonal attention and nothing else.

Re: # 44

CORRECTION:

immorality, beards, veils, blah blah blan

was meant to be: ``...immorality, shave the beards, and shed the veils, blah blah blah``

Urstruly #2:

you should make up your mind. Either you are with the underdog or against it. i don`t think that there is any room for neutrality left now.

:)

making up my mind?...while it is never easy i am very clear about which direction not to venture...i vehemently reject the approach of GWB and OBL...i am not with either of them...my world is not tunnel-visioned like theirs...

rgds

t

Re: # 11

well if you are very clear that the dog and the underdog are both wrong then what kind of answers you are looking for.

According to the laws of nature there has to be an original sin, which started it all; since you are clear, what is it?

jang #1

why is any nation or people innnocent? ....why not accept some responsibility?
i never mentioned any nation being innocent...that would be sheer folly...the main thrust is innocent civvies...be they in baghdad, mosul, darfur, moscow, kashmir, bombay, delhi, karachi, quetta...

as for accepting responsibility i did mention ..``The majority of moderate Muslims are not above blame.``

rgds

t

temporal mian,

..... the middlle east and the larger islamic world has to be cleansed and suicide bombers and civilian casualties are a small price to pay in order to secure the future of mankind .......... as long as aberrations like saudi arabia, syria and iran remain this will go on .......... america must stay the course, even if it takes fity years - this is not any different than the struggle against communism ........ freedom comes at a cost .........

Re: # 9

hamidm2:

america must stay the course, even if it takes fity years - this is not any different than the struggle against communism ........ freedom comes at a cost ........

LOL... what perverted pleasure do get by torturing the young & the restless wanna be intellectuals? Can`t you see from temporal`s essay that he`s in extreme pain?

Cross-sectionally violence from both side and the motives behind it may not appear different,but seeing this phenomenon longitudinally,America has to be blamed as the main culprit.Even Osama was ``created`` by America to use him in Aghanistan against Russia and ultimately he turned into Frakenstein.
In the sub-continent,the last use of suicide bombing was by Khalistani activists who blew the then chief minister of Punjab,Beant Singh in front of the secretariat.

Witness the assassination of Rajiv Gandhi. Or what happens in Russia’s Palestine, Chechenya. The Basques in Spain. The Kashmiris and Naxalites. The Baluchis and the Shias of Gilgit. The Moros.

AFAIK, the Naxalites don`t do suicide attacks. They usually blow up Police jeeps and other government vehicles using remote-controlled landmines. Even the Kashmiris haven`t used suicide bombing in the classical sense. Instead, they resort to Fidayeen attacks, where they usually storm Army/Paramilitary force/Police camps and shoot and kill a few soldiers before being shot themselves.

Temporal you pose a pertinent question:

````As a Muslim I cannot decide what is worse the US intransigence or Osama’s arrogance. Or the reverse``

But are US intransigence and Osama`s arrogance not two sides of the same coin ? Both are hunters with hungry intent. Any diplomat attired to the nines who embarks on the strange voyage of war can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The soft-spoken statesman who yields to war is as much a villain and a precursor as the bearded caped-crusading tyrant cocooning in caves.

Countless are the calculating eagles who descend from the Pentagon and Mazar-e-Sharif to live with moles that they may know the secrets of the earth and wreak havoc. A tongue-tied President or a suicide-tied beard ? Both lieutenants of lunacy. Surely the tailor sees the two erroneous sides of the cloth that he weaves ?

Perhaps, in his infinite wisdom, Mahatma Gandhi, had answered your predicament years ago:

`` What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the Holy name of liberty or democracy?

Mahatma Gandhi, ``Non-Violence in Peace and War``
Indian ascetic & inspirational leader (1869 - 1948)

# 4 by ozerkhalid

Ozer,

Good post.

Re: # 6

Gracias Harish. Your comments on Kashmiris and Naxalites are spot-on.

temporal,

Both sides in this conflict are to be blamed: institutions that helped create Saddams and Osamas, as well as the ummah that continues to hail monsters as heroes. Who deserves more blame is a close call.

People do not easily forget wrongs done to them, and settle old scores even after centuries and millenniums. This is why Islam encourages every possible alternative … even putting up with a long spells of oppression … before allowing armed retaliation.

Urstruly,

This is not an underdog issue … rather who has wronged who and how can this cycle be contained. Jumping to rash conclusions while raising calls for jihad will only feed this frenzy … enough is enough ... don`t you see ...?

t

you should make up your mind. Either you are with the underdog or against it. i don`t think that there is any room for neutrality left now.

``The innocent Iraqi civilians continue to pay the debts of an imposed war with their blood twice over.``

why is any nation or people innnocent? Iraqis had a god-given wealth of oil which they squandered over fighting with Iran. dont blame one ``dictator``.. iraqi nation just failed to accomplish peace and prosperity inspite of the oil-wealth. why are they innocent? why not accept some responsibility?

``As a Muslim I cannot decide what is worse the US intransigence or Osama’s arrogance. Or the reverse``

remember, pehle insan?