Poverty creation - Maharashtra ishtyle

haideri # 104

Devadasi system accounts for only a small supply of prostitutes. I would guess under 5%. It is not like anyone is actively supporting or defending the system.

If you want to complain about social ills prostitution in general and spread of AIDS are more pressing concerns.

#110
``Bus and truck owners don`t want to pay the toll so you rarely see a bus or a truck on the Bombay-Pune Expressway``

Admittedly it has taken a few years to take off, but when I was there last winter the tollway was used very heavily. It seems that the railways are planning to reduce services as people now prefer take buses on the Bombay Pune route, all of which now use the tollway. Can you imagine that, the Deccan Queen goes half-empty!

With improving roads and cheaper airline tickets the railways are going to increasingly lose their near-monopoly on long distance trave

Ref haideri #89

[Avenger, you can dream on. It is not a fenced highway and your Gao matas can cross it left and right. Pay attention to the pics I posted the highway is fenced.]

No need to fence along most of Bombay-Pune highway. It goes through desolate hilly land with not a human settlement in sight between Panvel and the outskirts of Pune except for the town of Lonavla. I have been on the road several times and never saw any animal, not even a leopard from the hills!

Just FYI.

Ref jang #88

[those expressway pics are amazing.. no hyundai-santros (or any other cars, except for the lonely TRAX milk-wagon) that indian roads are claimed to be full of. whats wrong with this picture?]

Bus and truck owners don`t want to pay the toll so you rarely see a bus or a truck on the Bombay-Pune Expressway. Most car owners have the perverted idea that spending anywhere from 5 - 9 hours on the old rutted roads is cheaper than paying the toll and getting to Pune in less than 3 hours. So the roads are clear for those willing to pay a few bucks of toll and you can zip along at 80+ mph. I guess the Santros are so fast that their image doesn`t register on the film!

Well, maybe I should have taken my camera along this morning to show you a picture of a Ferrari (license plate number TN07AK55) on the East Coast Road from Chennai to Pondicherry. On weekends, you see the Ferrari racing a Porsche and a Jaguar.

A Jaguar!! Does that mean the Headshrinker is in India now?

Haideri, I was just pulling your leg.

Peace.

Re: # 107

MaheshG2,

I don`t need any sanity certification from you. I am sure people on this site understand sarcasm. Also, India is neither ``rich`` nor ``civilized`` with current standards.

Mr. Haideri seems to have gone nuts.

He thinks India is rich and civilized because it has the practice of Devdasi in its society.

No sir. India is rich and civilized inspite of it. Such practices are heinous.

Pakistan needs to be civilized pronto. God knows what kind of society Pakistan is that it looks up to the Devdasi system.

Re: # 105

Jang,

I don`t know the intricate details. This is something which I came to know duing my sojourn in India.

#104.. mr Haideri, considering you are familiar with the trade, you would know the answer. my impression was that the devdasi system contributes very small or negligible % of workers at this point due to various reasons like large influx of workers from nepal and bangla desh and other parts of india, decline in devdasi patronage from traditional landlords and temples in the source villages, which have caused breakdown and migration of devdasi families.

i understand that even lata mangeshkar has devdasi roots?

Re: # 101

cayenne,

I never said India was a banana republic. India is an ancient society with a rich history. I am just trying to send a message that ``Don`t try to misinform people``. I have worked in India during late nineties for an NGO. I know ground realities much better than you are trying to portray. I can`t give you references from my own studies because that would be very unprofessional and against my contract. FYI, I am a US citizen

Re: # 102

Oh!!.Now you`re trying to backtrack and pretend to be nice.Typical pak manouvering.Nice try.You and your puny little country can take a hike.You cannot deny that little boys are molested and sold for sex on the streets of Lahore and Karachi.Ask me and i`ll back it up by pasting a link.I don`t like to wash your dirty in linen in public, unlike your classless self. Isn`t it time you went to bed, `little` one, from the little country on our western flanks.Good night.

Re: # 99

Netizen,

What you just said in few lines makes much more sense than what ``cayenne`` has been spewing for last few hours. I am not a ``Mullah`` Muslim and what Mohammad did was absolutely wrong. This practice is still alive in some parts of rural India and Pakistan.

Re: # 98

Let`s do a comparison, shall we?

PAKISTAN
Area
total: 803,940 sq km
land: 778,720 sq km
water: 25,220 sq km

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/pk.html

INDIA
Area:
total: 3,287,590 sq km
land: 2,973,190 sq km
water: 314,400 sq km

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/in.html

Pakland is 1/4th the size of my country, and this &*^% has the.....!@#$%

haideri,
Just like you are happy with Pakistan, we are happy with India.

By the way, the practise of devadasi though bad is many times better than honour killing.

Re: # 96

``According to some research, child prostitution is socially acceptable in some sections of Indian society through the practice of Devdasi. Young girls are given to the `gods` and they become a religious prostitute. ``

Thanks Haideri for pointing out the decadence in indian society. We have a lot of work to do. Its poverty which is a significant factor which has to be confronted. But its easy said then done.

`` was trying to draw your attention to the ``civilized`` practice of Devdasi. ``

There cannot be any justification for this kind of system. There are laws against it. But in a county like india laws can be broken with bribe/influence/muscle power. I hope you also do not condone Mohammad marriage to little girl, Ayesha with some nonsensical excuse. We need to be rational.

Also, you can point to the AIDS problem that is growing in India.

Re: # 97

I was trying to draw your attention to the ``civilized`` practice of Devdasi. nothing else. I am very happy in Pakistan.FYI, I have lived/studied both in US and Sweden.

#96 by haideri on May 13, 2005 11:26am PT
Re: # 95

India`s 944 580 000 inhabitants live in an area of 3 287 590 km²

In 1951, 164 million Indians were living in poverty
compared to 312 million in 1993-94.

.....The first statement is correct.The second statement is old news.The US has proportionately as many AIDS cases.You would run to live there wouldn`t you, if you aren`t already there.The poverty ratio is 26% right now.Give us another decade, we`ll bring it down even further.Also, child prostitution and other evils exist in all countries, including yours.How about polygamists and others in the US too?.P**S OFF.Disgruntled , jealous puki.Now you`re resorting ot digging up stale dirt on India.

Re: # 95

Are you on some kinda drugs ``civilized nation`` dweller. Read this article below.


CHILD PROSTITUTION IN INDIA

Child prostitution is the ultimate denial of the rights of the child.``
(Dr Jon E Rhode, UNICEF representative in India).

India`s 944 580 000 inhabitants live in an area of 3 287 590 km², with an expectation that the
population will reach 1 billion in May. Almost a quarter of this total are under 18 years of age.
25% of the population live in urban areas and this is estimated to be growing annually at just
over 1%. Over population and lack of education in nutrition and health contribute to the deaths
of around 11 000 children each day. In 1951, 164 million Indians were living in poverty
compared to 312 million in 1993-94.
There are estimated to be over 900 000 sex workers in India. 30% are believed to be children.
Recent reports estimate that the number of children involved in prostitution is increasing at 8
to10% per annum.
About 15% of the prostitutes in Mumbai (Bombay), Delhi, Madras, Calcutta, Hyderabad and
Bangalore are children. It is estimated that 30%of the prostitutes in these six cities are under 20
years of age. Nearly half of them became commercial sex workers when they were minors.
Conservative estimates state that around 300 000 children in India are suffering commercial
sexual abuse, which includes working in pornography.
In one study of 456 sex workers in Mumbai who had been `rescued` by police in February 1996, a
fifth were under 18 years and two-thirds were under 20. The main obstacle in the cracking down
on child prostitution for the police is the issue of rehabilitation and where to place and reintegrate
all the children that they rescue.
ROOTS:
The problem of child prostitution in India is more complicated than in other Third World
countries where it is directly related to sex tourism. In India, sexual exploitation of children has
its roots in traditional practices, beliefs and gender discrimination.
According to some research, child prostitution is socially acceptable in some sections of Indian
society through the practice of Devdasi. Young girls are given to the `gods` and they become a
religious prostitute. There are believed to be around 3 300 devdasis in Belguam area alone.
Devdasi is banned by the Prohibition of Dedication Act of 1982. Parents or guardians dedicating
their girls are liable to five years in jail and a Rs5 000 (approximately £71) fine.
AGE:
According to a madam in Kamatipura, the average age of girls supplied to the brothels in the last
two years has decreased from 14 and 16 years to 10 and 14 years. A girl between 10 and 12 years
fetches the highest price.
AIDS:
The fear of HIV/AIDS has increased the demand for virgins and children. Clients mistakenly
believe that children have fewer chances of contracting the disease. Similarly there is the myth
that a man can rid himself of sexually transmitted diseases if he sleeps with a virgin.
Recent Indian Government statistics put the number of people infected with HIV at 3.5million,
indicating approximately three out of every 100 Indians are now infected with the virus which
leads to AIDS. Almost 9 out of 10 of those people are below 45 years old.
TRAFFICKING:
About 7,000 sex workers cross over from Nepal into India every year. 66% of the girls are from
families where the annual income is about Rs5 000. They may be sold by their parents, deceived
with promises of marriage or a lucrative job or kidnapped and sold to brothel owners. Between
40 - 50% are believed to be under 18, the age of consent in India, some are as young as 9 or 10
years old.
RURAL ISSUE:
Child sex workers are not confined to big cities. A survey in Bihar revealed that roadside
brothels for truck drivers in the Aurangabad and Sasaram districts offered sex workers aged
between 6 and 18 years.
CASE EXAMPLES
• Meena was married off at 12. Soon after she was taken to Delhi by her husband, where
she found out that he was a pimp. In the last three years, she has serviced up to six clients
a night. The major part of her earnings goes to pay rent on the little room, the rest goes to
her husband.
• Rita was sold at 9 years old. She washed and cooked for a madam in Delhi for a few
months until a client wanted a virgin. Two years later, she barely talks to anyone and
spends most of her spare time painting flowers.
• Maya, 10, was taken to Gorakhpur in Uttar Pradesh by her aunt who was paid Rs 3 000.
When she refused to have sex with a client, she was locked in a room for two days,
scared with snakes and beaten unconscious. When she came around she was raped by the
client. Four years on, Maya lives in the red-light area of Mumbai. Her two year old
spends the night in a crèche run by a social service organisation. When he was only a few
months old, she used to drug him and put him under her working cot.
JUBILEE ACTION RESPONSE
Jubilee Action is supporting two houses on the outskirts of Mumbai which are providing
permanent homes for orphaned and abandoned children of prostitutes working in its red light
district. The staff has rescued some of the 50 girls, others have been brought by their parents in
order to protect their children from the streets` influence.
Having received little education on the streets, the girls are integrated into the local school
system and extra tuition is available at the home if required.
Case Study
Asha was left to fend for herself on the streets of Bombay after her mother, a prostitute in the red
light district, died. Her father wanted to sell her to a brothel owner but Jubilee House staff
rescued her. Asha is now studying hard, has passed her typing exam and is happy and safe from
the dangers of the streets.
If you would like further information on Jubilee Action please e-mail
info@jubileeaction.demon.co.uk
Jubilee Action is a registered charity no 1013587

Re: # 94

There are `dhobi ghats` in rich and old civilized nations.Such as mine.Old habits do die hard.P**s off.

Rep # 93

There are no dhobi ghats in any ``Rich and Civilized`` nation in the world. I got to preach on.

#92 by haideri on May 13, 2005 10:25am PT
HP..I`ve seen dhobi ghats in pakistan.They`re smaller and dirtier.What`s so wrong about this picture?.These people are plying a trade they have been doing for centuries.P**s off.Some people swear by the dhobi, but there are large sections of the population that use washing machines.So??.And, India is the seventh largest nation in the world.Again, p**s off.

Rep # 91
Over one billion living on a small piece of land, you call this living? Go all the way down in the posts and see who started the pissing match.

Haideri,

I can just see the jealousy brimming over in your posts.

Are there no laundry facilities in Pakistan? Civilized and Rich country like India can afford to have many.

Re# 87

Take a look at the ``civilized and rich`` country`s laundry (It is located in Bombay)

Re: # 86

Avenger, you can dream on. It is not a fenced highway and your Gao matas can cross it left and right. Pay attention to the pics I posted the highway is fenced.

those expressway pics are amazing.. no hyundai-santros (or any other cars, except for the lonely TRAX milk-wagon) that indian roads are claimed to be full of. whats wrong with this picture?

HP aka Hijra Paki .....concentration of poverty in India is lot lower than in Pakistan. India has the higher per capita , higher literacy and better human development indices than Pakistan.

Haideri...Indian roads are way better than puki roads. See this.The Pune-Mumbai express highway >>



< img src = ``http://www.amitkulkarni.info/pics/expressway/expressway-photographs/expressway_malavi_bridge_2.JPG``>

#82 by bbabu on May 12, 2005 6:35pm PT
1) Massive hikes in water charges. The new rates will reflect ‘full recovery of cost of irrigation management, administration, operation and maintenance,’ and ‘partial recovery of capital investment.’ ``

Clean Water is not free resource. Unless people pay the market value for the water it will not be utilized properly.

---

I agree wholeheartedly.People in the West have uninterrupted water supply, `cause they pay through their a**eholes for it.I want to see this author`s face when she sees an American monthly water bill for a single family house.And, they pay for sewage, for heating(gas or oil), for yard maintenance AND taxes.Or, monthly maintenance if the dwelling is a co-op apartment.It`s a wonder India is where it is , despite freeloaders and those who live off them, like activists and do-goodniks.

Re: # 81

Last week most of the cows in old Delhi metro areas were shipped out.The first pic. is a street scene in old Delhi.We`re a democracy and sometimes the people carry things too far.Yet, the local govt. has to weigh citizen`s rights against social responsibility.So, the courts gave permission to cart the cows out and it was done.There was no opposition form the metro dwellers.They knew they were doing something illegal by keeping the cows in metro areas , till they could get away with it.Same with the Mumbai slum saga.The matter is now in the court.Once the courts give the ok, no social activist nor squatter can stop it.The last one is a rural pic.Ever been to Switzerland.Herds of cows will cross the street in their rural areas.Everyone waits patiently and then moves on.

This is the Mumbai i know........link

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=159501

cayenne #37

`` Unchecked migration to Mumbai must end.I admire the people of Chennai, who through their language restrictions have checked the population growth and migration, or kept it within limits.There is equitable power distribution and rarely any power cuts in chennai metro.The world`s largest nuclear power reactor is nearing completion in TN.I was there a couple of weeks back for three days and not a single power cut anywhere in the city.Saves us mahrashtrians right for accepting hindi as our national language.Our interests should lie with the people of the konkan and deccan regions.We are one of them. ``

The TNEB is relatively well run compared to most other electricity boards.

I do not think Chennai has any restrictions on migration. There is a large Telugu minority.

Rich/middle class North Indians would prefer to live eleswhere because people in Chennai do not speak Hindi and Chennai is socially conservative compared to Mumbai/Delhi. For poor North Indians Chennai is farther than Delhi/Mumbai and it is hard to survive without knowledge of English/Tamil.

`` when Maharashtra used to be one of the best-governed states in India. ``

It used to true until the mid-1980s

`` This year, Maharashtra is up for grabs as the worst-governed state. Vilasrao and gang seem to be well on the home stretch, without trying too hard. His vice-captain, R.R. Patil, is making sure of that. ``

It is hard to beat Bihar

`` In December last year, the Govt. took action to transform Mumbai into Shanghai. About three lakh people had their meagre homes destroyed, and were told to ‘go back where you came from.’ As bulldozers demolished around 70,000 slum dwellings, the city Corporation requested that the names of the newly homeless be struck off the electoral rolls. ``

We can argue about the pros and cons of the govt measure. Don`t you think the government enforced property rights ?

`` Then came the Bar Girls’ saga. Reacting to the case of a young man who had murdered his grandmother for money to lavish on a bar dancer, R.R. Patil announced that all the dance bars in the state would be shut down, throwing 75,000 bar dancers and innumerable other people – waiters, cooks, cleaners, etc., out of work. The Govt. did make some noises about rehabilitating the girls and providing them with alternate employment, but when educated people don’t have jobs, what can the Govt. do for these semi-literate girls? One of the bar dancers declared unequivocally on TV that they would have no option but to turn to prostitution if the bars were closed down. So much for moral policing! ``

I want to know what happens to the money spent on bar girls. It is going to be spent somewhere. What happens to the bar girls when they get old ? Does the author care for their plight ?

`` 1) Massive hikes in water charges. The new rates will reflect ‘full recovery of cost of irrigation management, administration, operation and maintenance,’ and ‘partial recovery of capital investment.’ ``

Clean Water is not free resource. Unless people pay the market value for the water it will not be utilized properly.

`` 3) Farmers with more than two children will have to pay one and half times the new rates.``
Somebody has to enforce population control.


`` 5) Breaking these laws will invite six months imprisonment and a fine of ten times the annual water charges. ``

Any bias against enforcement of laws !!!

`` Seen against the backdrop of last year’s drought and the consequent suicides by farmers in some regions of Maharashtra, this Bill is truly monstrous. For farmers who are already deep in debt, unable to pay even the old charges, the provisions of this Bill are a death-knell. Agriculture, the poor farmer’s only source of survival, will become totally unviable. Small holdings will be gobbled up by rich landowners, and thousands, maybe lakhs of people, will be rendered landless. And no prizes for guessing where many of them will end up in their quest to earn a living. ``

What makes you think small farms are viable long term in WTO era ?

`` I refuse to believe that these possibilities would not have struck Vilasrao and gang. And if The question is, will the burgeoning numbers of the poor, continue to agree to remain invisible, as all good poor people should? Maybe Vilasrao will enlighten us in due course. ``

One one hand you complain about the increasing number of poor people. On the other hand the software and call center industries complain about the lack of cheap labor. Are we missing something ?

Indian moms on the road

Re: # 78

I feel sorry for you man.This is typical pak grandstand.When cornered , b8tch and moan.

Re: # 62

This again, is a pic of Dhaka.

Marchi!

still on fire?

Get a life dude! you got nothing!

750 Million poor. 70% of the country lives in villages. Main mode of transportation: animal driven carts. Beggers roam the streets of every city. ten beggers per car. ...
I mean bud your whole life is ruined in that country...
One bathroom per chaal and still no running water. Ugh!

Re: # 76

Dude, this is the only highway you guys got.And, your capital`s main thouroughfare which looks like an avenue in one of our second tier cities.Click on this link for the Mumbai-pune expressway and this is only one of the many.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=164136&page=18&pp=20

Cayene, you must be referring to these roads. Enjoy







Enjoy

This is how a Pakistani `car` looks like >>

#71,

a clearer picture emerges of Pakistanis.

They think:

1) Slums are beautiful.

2) Bullock carts are automobiles.

3) Human pulled Rickshaws are the height of civilization.

Poor fellows. I really feel for them. It`s time to liberate them from the clutches of misery and show them how the world has changed outside of Pakistan.

#71,

a clearer picture emerges of Pakistanis.

They think:

1) Slums are beautiful.

2) Bullock carts are automobiles.

3) Human pulled Rickshaws are the height of civilization.

Poor fellows. I really feel for them. It`s time to liberate them from the clutches of misery and show them how the world has changed outside of Pakistan.

Haideri`s mom >>

Here is a picture from your beautiful capital DEHLI taken in 2004. The human pulled Rickshaw must be height of civilization.

Re: # 66

God bless you avenger.

Check this description of pak roads..................

Driving in Pakistan: If you can - dont drive
Written NukeDoc on September 24, 2004.


by NukeDocAlthough there are some good roads in Pakistan (The motorway between Islamabad and Lahore, the road to Murree), most of the roads in Pakistan are more like a dirt bike track than anything asphalt. Extremely hazardous road constructions, no lines markings, no direction signs, big potholes, and on top of that absolutely reckless drivers. Roads are officially declared war zones and even if you are very careful someone else driving a 10 ton truck would maul you over.

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Asia/Pakistan/Transportation-Pakistan-Driving_in_Pakistan-BR-1.html#3

This link has some pics of vehicles in pakistan.heehaw.

Link to pics of Mumbai/suburbs

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981

#64,

I really feel sorry for you that you think that photo is beautiful. My dear sir, that is called a slum.

God knows what knows what kind of lives you lead in Pakistan that you think that slum is beautiful.

I think the time to civilize Pakistan is near. No more dilly dallying. Bring some sunshine into the pathetic lives of our neighbors in our west.

Plight of children in Pakistan >>

Re: # 64

This is a pic of Dhaka.

Haideri...

Some wonderful pictures of Pakistan , just for you ..


Images of Pakistan....


1.

Pakistani women and their impeccable sense of fasion....


2.

Lahore Basant....

3.

Lahore socialites....

4.

Life in Pakistan...

5.

More sights of Lovely Lahore....

6.

Typical means of transport in Lahore

HP ,

You are a fool to let your hatred for India blind you to the present realities. I know you are an old man...in your youth , I am sure India was a very poor country , and Pakistan was far better off relatively. So its understandable that you find it difficult to reconcile yourself to the new realities.

No amount of posting pictures of 1970s era autorickshaws or bulluck carts will take away the fact that automobiles worth $5billion were sold in India last year. Dozens of companies , both Indian and non-India compete for this fast expanding and highly evolved market. Over 2-3 dozen brand new models of various cars of several companies are available today.

Indian companies like Mahindra and Tata Motors export cars and SUVs to Europe and South America.Cars like these >>

Indigo Marina (Tata)


Indigo


Tata Indica V2


Tata Safari (SUV)


You posted a picture of a Mahindra Autorickshaw of the 1970s vintage ..(days of your youth)....Now see for yourself how far the company has come...from making autorickshaws to manufacturing Sport Utility Vehicles (suv) that are exported to Europe...

Mahindra Scorpio

You are both blind and dumb. I hope this picture will help you embrace the reality. These guys are washing in the crap water. This picture is from your beautiful BOMBAY.

#62,

It does not seem civilized to me but it obviously does to you. Ask HP. He will tell you that the picture is of a couple of automobiles.

That`s why I say we Indians should take the lead in bringing civilization to the cave dwellers in our west.

Here is a picture from the world`s forth richest country. Does this seem civilized to you MaheshG2 ? Na, it must be an ISI conspiracy.

HP has carried this too far!!.I need to now how to post pics in these boxes,i am computer illiterate.The schmo has posted pics of villagers in Rajasthan , i guess, `cause of the camel.I got pics of interesting contraptions that roam the metros of pak-i-stan.Help!!.To arms my brothers!!.Maharastra`s got power from Delhi, so this essay`s moot anyways.

#50 Jang,

we will outsource to south korea and Daewoo. What do you think?

#57,

It might be an automobile to you cave dwellers but to us it is simply a bullock cart :)

Pakistanis must be in awe of choolhas too thinking they are microwaves.

Indians should take the lead in bringing civilization to our primitive neighbors in the west.

The nuances in the populist rhetoric about Maharashtra`s roadmap towards progress tell us a lot about where the State is going....Ponder over this:

Long time ago the dream was to convert Konkan into California. It was soon realized that that was too far to go. Maharashtra politicians started talking about converting Girangaon (Girgaum or Mumbai) into Singapore. That also now looks too distant and at this moment we are chasing Shanghai!

It saddens one to realize that Shanghai and Mumbai were almost on par in the early 1950. Perhaps, Mumbai was a little ahead of Shanghai. The distance between the two of them has widened so much by now that Shanghai is held forth as a desirable goal for Mumbai to catch up with!

One more automobile in India! But where is the auto? It is in Korea....Marchi pulling it for the time being...

Why worry?.This is the reason we have a central govt..All reactionaries and misplaced do-goodniks may move to BANGLADESH.Please.Thank you.


NDTV Correspondent

Thursday, May 12, 2005 (New Delhi):


The Centre today assured Maharashtra that it would provide as much as 1,210 MW of electricity, including 610 MW at normal rates to the state to tide over the situation.

The state has been reeling under an acute power crisis.

An assurance to this effect was given by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh after a 40-minute meeting which deliberated on short-term measures to address the problem.

Deshmukh told reporters that out of the 610 MW, 300 MW would come from Kawas project in Gujarat and 250 MW from Tarapur nuclear power plant. (PTI)

http://www.ndtv.com/homepage/default.asp

HP

Take a ride on this!.Oh no you can`t!.You live in a country where you have to wait to take delivery of a Suzuki 800 breadbox.Take a look, anyways.


http://www.autoindex.org/bodies.plt?no=2501&ass=

http://www.autoindex.org/news.plt?no=789

Re: # 52

Nice try Mr.Sour Grapes.Why don`t you take a ride on a ``Qing-qi`` derived contraption, emitting black smoke from it`s 1955 chinese derived one-banger.OR, even better , how about a `Revo` an 80`s Wu-ling derived breadbox that is still yet to get off the ground!!.You`ll have to wait like for everything else in pakland.

Ref HP #51

[They call this an automobile in India!]

Nope, it is called an auto for an autorickshaw, not an automobile. Nice try but no dice!

A minor correction to set the mirchi on fire permanently!

Mirchi KO mirchi laggi!

Mirchi to mirchi laggi!

They call this an automobile in India!

cayenne, but the paki expressway is still much longer, older and better than the bombay-poona (or is it panvel-shivaji nagar). so time to outsource..pronto.

Re: # 30

jang and HP

link to list of auto manufacturers in india:

http://www.autoindex.org/makelist.plt?cntr=32&letter=All

link to list of auto manufacturers in pakistan:

http://www.autoindex.org/makelist.plt?cntr=33&letter=All

See how `advanced` the pak auto `industry` is compared to india`s!!!.Click and weep.

Re: # 46

``shivsena made big bucks erecting hosing for dharaviwallas``

I remember SS promising houses to slum-dwellers during Manohar Joshis time. What I remeber is the idea went bust because of drop in real estate value.

http://us.rediff.com/money/2005/may/11hyundai1.htm

If Hyundai keeps pissing like this in India we certainly welcome it :)

Hyundai to invest $700 mn in India

May 11, 2005 17:31 IST


Hyundai Motors India Ltd, a subsidiary of the Korean auto giant, will achieve the critical one million mark in car sales in India by March 2006 and is likely to pump in about $700 million over the next three years to expand production capacity at its plant near Chennai.

shivsena made big bucks erecting hosing for dharaviwallas, but the reality is that no dharaviwallah wants to go live in tenements in salt yards of mulund which are too far away from his/her employmet place. so they sell these to other more newer entrants.

Ref dost-mittar #38

[harimou#25:

I could not see from your post where Ramesh opposed economic reform. If he tried to claim the credit for progress for the previous govt.`s action, this is what a political spokesperson is supposed to do. In any case, even the BJP does not argue that the reform process was started by it.]

I don`t need to read the columns of somebody who has no regard for truth.

I don`t believe that ``Doesn`t it feel good now that I have stopped raping you`` is a good excuse for 50 years of misrule. You, on the other hand, seem to belong to the school of thought that says, ``If rape is inevitable, lie down and enjoy it.``

Ref Netizen #40

[....If rules are followed no slum would be erected. People like Athavale who promise slums (on gov. land) to the immigrants and themselves live in posh bungalows should be hounded and put behind bars.]

Nope. 10,000 slumdwellers should show up three times a day and sh!t and piss inside his compound. Same thing goes for people like Teesta Setalvad, Uma K, Amrita Rajan, Amit, Sonia Gandhi (who stopped the demolition of Bombay slums), Medha Patkar, Jyothi Basu, Buddhadeb Bhattacharya, Prakash Karat, etc. Anybody who so much as says `Boo` to the elimination of illegality should be given a dose of their own (or in this case somebody else`s) crap.

Slums should be demolished but the people who hoodwinked the slum dwellers should be punished big time.

It`s sad that poor people bear the brunt of breaking the law but the rich ones escape unhurt.

#35 by uma_k5

[But the Govt`s responsibility is not towards the tax-paying middle class alone, it is also towards all those who fall below the tax bracket (considering it is mainly because of their votes that the Govt came to power).]

Huh? Even if the Government comes into power mainly because of slum-dwellers` votes, why should it shoulder their responsibilty any more than it does for the tax-paying citizen? Doesn`t this remind us of the good old socialist raj/welfare state? Are you advocating that the Govt. provide them free food and housing, and for good measure, a dole?

[And the `millions of rupees` that a middle class person pays, do not subsidise the lifestyle of the shantyman, but go into the pockets of builders and their patron politicians. A lot of it is in black, remember?]

This wasn`t needed at all. Not every middle class guy has tons of black money, most of them loan money from the banks.

Errata:

`` Most Mumbai slum dwellers are not poor or lacking incentive, all they need is a good policy framework to work in.``

should read:

Most Mumbai slum dwellers are not poor or lacking initiative, all they need is a good policy framework to work in.

Re: # 35

``It`s amazing how an article on Maharashtra can generate an Indo-Pak war of words!! ``

It comes free with evey post ;)

---

``Netizen and others, I have no quarrel with the fact that slums are illegal. Even slumdwellers would rather live with more dignity, I`m sure. But the Govt`s responsibility is not towards the tax-paying middle class alone, it is also towards all those who fall below the tax bracket (considering it is mainly because of their votes that the Govt came to power). The argument is not so much against the demolition of slums per se, as against the Govt washing its hands off the people living in them - in fact, asking them to leave Bombay. ``

I don`t think the GoM is asking them to leave Mumbai, they are just evicting them from the illegal lands that they have squatted on.

---

``If the Govt is serious about the Shanghaification of Bombay, then it has to deal with this problem from the bottom up, not top down. No amount of demolition will get rid of the slums - everyone knows this. ``

I agree with you on this. I really don`t care much of Shanghaification but would like the city to remain manageable not an open air bathroom. I wonder why the GoM doesn`t go after the corrupt civic, police officials who are hand in glove with goondas/politicains and are responsible for this mess. If rules are followed no slum would be erected. People like Athavale who promise slums (on gov. land) to the immigrants and themselves live in posh bungalows should be hounded and put behind bars.

---

``The only thing that will work is creation of viable low-cost housing - workable plans for which are already in existence. And don`t believe anyone who says that there is no land available - this is a story put out by all those who have a stake in the conversion of Bombay into a Real Estate Developers` Paradise (there are bound to be many Govt fingers in that pie). ``

Can you please elaborate on this. Who is going to provide money to construct these real estate, and once the slumdwellers are put in high rise bldg who is going to foot the maintenance bills? Would it guarantee no more immigration of poor/landless people to mumbai and no more erection of new slums (in the hope that they will also be rewarded at a later time with regularisation and/or low-cost housing).

#35

The role of goverment is to set up a policy famework for housing development. Repeal regressive laws such as the ``rent act``. Provide incentives such as higher FSI for developers interested in ``low cost housing``. Provide means for slum dwellers to form ``housing societies``, no more PWD constructed shoddy slum rehab colonies. Most Mumbai slum dwellers are not poor or lacking incentive, all they need is a good policy framework to work in.

Slum redevelopment has to be made more attractive with clear laws that will prevent harrasment by rent-seeking goverment officials and gangsters. Yes, developers and builders will make even more money from slum rehab (and that`s a good thing).

Maharastra goverment has a cut-off date (1997?) they are not liable to resettle slum`s established after this date. I can`t see how you have an objection to this policy?

A motto of reform for all ``ex-jholawalla`s`` (myself included): ``less emotion, more pragmatism``.

harimou#25:

I could not see from your post where Ramesh opposed economic reform. If he tried to claim the credit for progress for the previous govt.`s action, this is what a political spokesperson is supposed to do. In any case, even the BJP does not argue that the reform process was started by it.

satyamvada#27:

``should you not factor in. how you are going to monitor
how many buckets everyone gets daily ? - will you have people standing near the
public tap counting number of buckets people will get ?``

Water and electricity boards/companies routinely use a grading system of pricing; it`s no big deal. As for free public taps, with the long lineups, nobody using those taps can carry more than a few buckets a day. At the same time, charging full price would create greater public pressue against waste; more water is wasted, at least in Delhi, because of broken pipes and leaky faucets than by people taking water for personal use from public taps.

Re: # 35

The regime of govt. handouts should and must end.Period.A regime of incentives and deferments should follow this to help those who were used to handouts adjust.We in India always underestimate ourselves, rich or poor.This is the only way out.Privatization is here to stay and let us all get used to it.If we are successful, then only those who genuinely cannot provide for themselves will be left and the rest of us can provide the basics for them through a safety net program such as Social Security in the US.All NGO`s , misplaced activists and socialists can move enmasse to calcutta or even better BANGLADESH.There will be plenty of work for them for years to come.Please let the rest of india prosper and let all classes have an equal opportunity to succeed.Let the markets rule.For more than fifty years the govt. ruled.Look where it got us.Let us give the private sector a chance.Till then let us work hard at success.

Unchecked migration to Mumbai must end.I admire the people of Chennai, who through their language restrictions have checked the population growth and migration, or kept it within limits.There is equitable power distribution and rarely any power cuts in chennai metro.The world`s largest nuclear power reactor is nearing completion in TN.I was there a couple of weeks back for three days and not a single power cut anywhere in the city.Saves us mahrashtrians right for accepting hindi as our national language.Our interests should lie with the people of the konkan and deccan regions.We are one of them.

Re: # 32

Yeah, and look at all the ``fair tall and handsome pakistani people`` sitting in the savvy pakistani car.Hee haw.

It`s amazing how an article on Maharashtra can generate an Indo-Pak war of words!!

Netizen and others, I have no quarrel with the fact that slums are illegal. Even slumdwellers would rather live with more dignity, I`m sure. But the Govt`s responsibility is not towards the tax-paying middle class alone, it is also towards all those who fall below the tax bracket (considering it is mainly because of their votes that the Govt came to power). The argument is not so much against the demolition of slums per se, as against the Govt washing its hands off the people living in them - in fact, asking them to leave Bombay. If the Govt is serious about the Shanghaification of Bombay, then it has to deal with this problem from the bottom up, not top down. No amount of demolition will get rid of the slums - everyone knows this. The only thing that will work is creation of viable low-cost housing - workable plans for which are already in existence. And don`t believe anyone who says that there is no land available - this is a story put out by all those who have a stake in the conversion of Bombay into a Real Estate Developers` Paradise (there are bound to be many Govt fingers in that pie).

Cayenne, I cannot understand your middle class vs. poor approach. No person likes to be poor. Ask anyone who has to live in a shanty, and if he were honest, he would say that he would much prefer to pay `millions of rupees` for an apartment, if only he could afford it. And the `millions of rupees` that a middle class person pays, do not subsidise the lifestyle of the shantyman, but go into the pockets of builders and their patron politicians. A lot of it is in black, remember? Even the shantyman has to pay for his pathetic patch of filth - only he pays the local goonda (who also has his patron politician) and not the Govt. No doubt, he would be most happy to pay the Govt rather than the goonda, if he were assured of a pucca roof over his head, and the dignity that goes with it.

Re: # 31

I humbly offer you this cutandpaste link to Hyundai Motor India`s model range.All these models are manufactured locally.India is also the sole manufacturing base for the Santro Xing model worldwide.This link does not include higher end vehicles imported like the Terracan and Tuscon SUV`s.

http://www.autoindex.org/maker.plt?no=1246


I will say no more.

#29

``Hyundai was smart.They wouldn`t piss in pak``

They are pissing allover India now!

The 55 year old potty mouthed juvenile fool Hacked Penis says , : ``Pakistani automobile customers are whole lot savvier than Indians.``...

You bet !!

Pakistan`s first and only indigenously built car , the swashbucking Sitara is guaranteed to deliver maximum satisfaction to the savvy Pakistani automobile enthusiast >>


WoW!!!

#29 by cayenne
“Hyundai was smart.They wouldn`t piss in pak”

Mirchi, try to read stuff from non-RSS web sites too.

Hyundai actually were in Pakistan way before they entered India. I think it was 1987 or 1988. The problem was they could not compete with big players like Toyota, Honda and Nissan in the mid and the sub compact class. Suzuki monopolized the 1000CC class. Hyundai is still in Pakistan but not a big player. You see it is whole lot easy to sell low quality cars in India, as Indian had never seen quality cars from the world before the nineties. Toyota entered Pakistan in 1967 right after they introduced 1966 model in the US for the first time. Honda followed soon. Toyota, Honda and Nissan (datsun) were imported from Japan. Pakistani automobile customers are whole lot savvier than Indians.
Only a dumbass would like the piss! Did you rub the aftershave on your face today?

#29 mirchi, true, but look, pakis have nice highway, (who cares how they got it done?)whereas all you have to be proud of is a small 70 mile strip from panvel to shivaji nagar to show for, and the rest-stop vada-pav. oh i forgot the ``fly-overs`` in bombay.. no shit, at the end of every fly-over is a mess of super-size pot-holes. so a small 15-mile journy from seepz to downtown can take 3 hours.

Re: # 26

we should outsource some things to pakistan, like highways, cricket and airports. they are good at it.


...Uh huh.NO.They are not good at it.These highways were built by Daewoo and under korean supervision.Remember what happened to Daewoo?.They went bankrupt as a result.And daewoo thought they`ll recoup their investment in pak`s roads by selling cars!.Those were the days!.Let`s take a look at them highways in another five years.We(TATA) own Daewoo trucks as a result.Hyundai was smart.They wouldn`t piss in pak.They`re selling about 250,000 plus cars a year in india alone now.Smart.

Uma,

Where are you? what is your take so far?
Aaj ks taaja kabar....

State govt stops free power to farmers
By: Agencies
May 10, 2005

---

In view of the acute power shortage in the state, the Democratic Front government in Maharashtra today decided to discontinue its pre-poll promise of providing free power to farmers.

Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh announced this after a state cabinet meeting this afternoon.

He, however, said that the government would provide subsidised power to the farmers and reimburse Rs 1,200 crore subsidy bill every year to the Maharashtra State Electricity Board.

The Sushilkumar Shinde government, on the eve of the Assembly elections in July last year, had announced free power to over 2.5 million agricultural pumps in Maharashtra.

---

Also, during elections they promised regularisation of slums upto year 2000 (from 1996).

Dost-mitter,

There is still hope for you - but that commie and dhimmi mentality due to nehruvian
training shows up now and then.
``however pricing should be set so that the first few daily buckets of water are
practically free for everyone``

You claim to be a economist - should you not factor in. how you are going to monitor
how many buckets everyone gets daily ? - will you have people standing near the
public tap counting number of buckets people will get ?

There is enough water in India - the problem is in storage and distribution
because of govt interference in pricing. Let there be competition and water
will be priced and distributed fairly and water will be available to all people.
If we can get 5 litre of clean water to every family for a rupee the number of
water borne diseases and illness can be reduced tremendously and infant
mortality will come down rapidly.

Also why does the Govt have to interfere in number of children ?

Regards,

``This is what happens when people unqualified to run a railway station have delusions that they can run modern airports. ``

we should outsource some things to pakistan, like highways, cricket and airports. they are good at it.

Ref dost-mittar #24

[harimou:

Jairam Ramesh is not a communist but one of the consistent supporters of reform. You should read the column he used to write for India Today. He supported most of the NDA govt.`s economic policies even when he was in the opposition.]

Jairam Ramesh is indeed a socialist/Crypto-Communist in the Jawaharlal Nehru mode. He made the claim that the Congress Party was responsible for the Golden Quadrilateral and for the North-South and East-West Corridor 4-lane highway projects because -- get this -- the bill authorizing the establishment of the National Highway Authority of India was passed when the Congress was in power. He conveniently forgot the fact that for years, the NHAI merely hired bureaucrats (probably fulfilling the mandate to hire SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC candidates) and then sat with its collective thumbs up its collective @rse. He also made the claim that the telecom revolution under the BJP rule was merely due to advances in technology -- as if, under 50+ years of Congress misrule, they had exploited the then existing technology and provided 100 million landline connections! He made an appearance on ``The Big Fight`` a couple of years ago and claimed that the failure of India to advance farther was merely because of the failure of India to consume 35 million tons of steel annually during the 1980s -- when the Congress had been in power except for 18 months. He conveniently forgot that steel at that time was not allowed new private investment/ownership, Tata Steel (TISCO) was being strangled by Nehruvian controls, the 35 million ton target was set in a five-year plan and its failure is indeed a failure of the plan, not to mention that the government did not have the money to build an additional 25+ million ton capacity to reach that 35 million ton goal, that there isn`t enough water to wash the bloody coal, there weren`t enough railway wagons nor track capacity to move the iron ore, coal/coke and limestone needed to make steel, etc., etc., etc.

Do not make the mistake of confusing being articulate with being intelligent. Jairam Ramesh is articulate. He appeals to the TamBrahms as he is one of them. I am surprised he appeals to you sufficiently for you to agree with him.

Uma:

It is good that people like you were not there to advise the Chinese, or else you would have turned Shanghai into a Bombay. You and other people thinking like you are all very good intentioned, but I am sure that the road to Hell via Dharavi is built with good intentions. Let us look at the source of your anguish:

``1) Massive hikes in water charges. The new rates will reflect ‘full recovery of cost of irrigation management, administration, operation and maintenance,’ and ‘partial recovery of capital investment.’ ``

Absolutely, a must! It is high time that people, not only Indians, stop wasting water, considering it to be a free and unlimited resource. Water should be charged on a full cost-recovery basis; however pricing should be set so that the first few daily buckets of water are practically free for everyone.

``2) In some regions, farmers will be forced to adopt expensive drip or sprinkler irrigation methods.``

A highly desirable thing to do. But government should ensure that farmers have access to loans to invest in the newer technology.

``3) Farmers with more than two children will have to pay one and half times the new rates.``

Another progressive step, as long as it has a `grandfather` clause, exempting those with already more than two children.

``4) Of the three full-time members of the Regulatory Authority, not even one is required to be a farmer.``

Wrong move. I would suggest that a majority should be active farmers.

``5) Breaking these laws will invite six months imprisonment and a fine of ten times the annual water charges``

A law without consequences for breaking it is not worth the paper it is written on.

harimou:

Jairam Ramesh is not a communist but one of the consistent supporters of reform. You should read the column he used to write for India Today. He supported most of the NDA govt.`s economic policies even when he was in the opposition.

YOUR ARTICLE JUST SHOWS THE OUTCOME OF THE TROUBLE BREWING IN MAHARASHTRA. THE STATE GOVERNMENT HAD THIS COMING. THE DEMOCRATIC FRONT HAS QUITE A FEW (AN UNDERSTATEMENT) CORRUPTION CHARGES. ALL THE MONEY EARNED BY THE GOVERNMENT DISSAPEARS IN THE HANDS OF THE POLITICIANS. THE STATE IS REELING UNDER A DEBT OF SOME 11 BILLION RUPEES, THAT TOO IN THE LAST SEVEN YEARS.
THE MIGRANTS TO MUMBAI, FROM OTHER STATES, HAVE PUT A HUGE LOAD ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE, BASIC AMENETIES, TRANSPORT AND THE ABSORBING CAPACITY OF THE SOCIETY AS A WHOLE. THIS ISLAND CITY HAS REACHED ITS LIMIT. IT CANNOT HOLD ANY MORE PEOPLE ANYMORE. MUMBAI ALREADY HOUSES ASIA`S LARGEST SLUM, THE DHARAVI.
I BELEIVE THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS FINALLY HEEDING TO THE PROBLEMS THAT THE CONGRESS GOVERNMENT HAD IGNORED AND DISTANCED ITSELF FROM, IN THE LAST FIFTY YEARS. THOUGH THE WAY IT IS GOING ABOUT THE SITUATION NEEDS SOME EFFECTIVE PLANNING.

This is a little much though.Why do we put up with wasteful spending by our satraps?.

Minister`s car worth 145 houses
Source: IANS.
Ranchi, May 10: Ministers in Jharkhand are zipping around in brand new vehicles costing a whopping Rs.64 million to the state exchequer.
After the Arjun Munda-led government came to power in March, the government decided to order bullet proof vehicles, each costing Rs.3.2 million, for all ministers citing security concerns.
Initially the government decided on Mitsubishi Lancers but after a public outcry, they settled for Tata Safaris, which were delivered to the ministers May 8. The vehicles were purchased from the police modernisation and building and construction fund.
According to an official in the building and construction department, the cost of each car was equivalent to constructing 145 houses under the Indira Awas Yojna scheme.
One minister said there was nothing wrong with the new vehicles.
``We are concerned about development of the state but it does not mean that we should move on bullock carts. Development will take time and everything cannot be changed overnight,`` a minister told IANS on the condition of anonymity.
The ministers also moved into homes of their choice and are busy renovating them.
Jharkhand was carved out of southern Bihar in 2000 after accusations that the government of undivided Bihar was neglecting development of the region.
Close to 55 percent of the state`s population lives below the poverty line as against the national average of 26 percent. The literacy rate is 54.13 percent as against the national average of 65.38 percent.
The state has only eight percent of irrigated land as against the national average of 40 percent.

http://cv.tatamotors.com/index.php

In India, the name of the game is tokenism. Nothing has to be done, just raise a few empty slogans, beam for the cameras, engineer a few articles by sympathetic word prostitutes and arrange for positive coverage in the media...the job is done. Even after six decades of self-rule, governments in India are clueless about governance. So, we have Laloos oiling their lathis, Mayawatis building elephant parks, Uma Bhartis performing Yajnas and VilasRaos `beautifying` cities. Nobody ever accused them of sagacity, they`ve steered clear of any such controversial labels.

It is not that people erect their tents illegally because they want to occupy prime real estate, they have no other go. I suspect this legality logic is a charade for hiding underhand deals. Honble CM and his deputy must have got a few khokhas from real estate people. We won`t have to wait long, the lands freed of illegal presence will be sold to bhoomi dons at concessional rate and they`ll erect concrete jungles to house the affluent. Then another tent, another eviction and the game will go on.

Ref HP #19

[#13 by harimau
“why step out of the Mumbai airport? Just llok at the airport itself.”

Don’t be distraught Harimau!]

I am not distraught. I am outraged. This is what happens when people unqualified to run a railway station have delusions that they can run modern airports.

Kill the Commies!

#13 by harimau
“why step out of the Mumbai airport? Just llok at the airport itself.”


Don’t be distraught Harimau! India is a poor country. Things will change….May be in the next millennium!! he he he…

Netizen

Calm down my friend.

Re: # 4


``
“I`m sorry..but have you ever stepped out of the Mumbai airport ? I did when I was a kid. The scene outside was horrendous. Slums , tents , people cooking , sleeping on pavements or answering the call of nature..all on roadside.....”

There is no justification or this kind of living standards in the fourth richest country in the world. What about All those stats that gujju had been jamming up everyone’s throat? All big lies! The truth comes out. I mean Gujju had to answer the call of nature on the roadside in the fourth richest country of the world. There are slums in Bombay and I thought it was like New York! People cooking on the roadside! Why? they don’t have regular houses in the fourth richest country in world?

hp,
These slums are constructed illegally on government property be it railways, airport. Its a common knowledge that 30-40 % of mumbai lives in slum. Dharavi, is asias biggest slum, ut it is slum-cum-commercail place. A lot of tradfe takes place there. THe present gov. wanted to stop these illegal hutments but Sonia is more concerned with votes than providing law and order. THese slums will continue to rise as every day hundreds of people come to mumbai in search of work. Corruption, political favoritism just makes the problem acute.


``Why is there any poor in India when Indian IT industry makes $17 billion a year! I mean $17 billion is no joke!``

i wonder whether there are more than 2% of indian population involved in IT. Those who are are doing good. There are thousands of them who have made it big, but that doesn`t solve the employment problems. IT is still a small part of GDP.

It was interesting to see all those Indian ransacking the Electric department in Maharashtra on TV and an engineer running two ACs in his office!

Bad policies, bureacracy, impotent leadership is all I can say. Crores of rupees in terms of bills are not paid. Even the ministers are defaulters, poor people don`t expect to pay. Farmers want free power. Dabhol/Enron project got cancelled.



Ha!Ha!!Ha!!! How the mighty bite the dust!

Good for you.