Poverty creation - Maharashtra ishtyle

This article is a `reactionary` point of view by a `reactionary` activist.These kinds thrive on the poor.The more poor there are, the more power these people will have.Any efforts at instilling a sense of accountability and responsibility on the part of the public by state govts. have been hampered by these activist types.Till the economy started growing, middle class india put up with it and suffered the antics of the poor.Now, the middle class have had it.Why should a middle class tax paying citizen have to pay millions of rupees for an apartment, whereas a `poor` person can erect a shantytown anywhere and live there without paying anything to the city or state?.It is the vast middle class that is asking the vast poor to join the gang or go bust.History ofcourse, will have the last word.I think the poor in india are too smart to take side with losers such as this author and her ilk.They like the good things of life and i, believe, are prepared to work for it.Note, almost no resistance from the poor when the govt. bulldozed these shantytowns.

``“When we launched the (demolition) drive, we never thought of their rehabilitation. Legally speaking, that is not the responsibility of the Government.” The state of Maharashtra, in its drive to beautify Mumbai, blatantly abdicated its responsibility toward a segment of its residents, who may have come from outside, but whose labour, nevertheless, contributed to the state’s economy.``


Uma,
those whose huts were demolished have no legal right to be there in the first place. If I can pitch a tent anywhere in Mumbai, will it make me a legal owner of that space? If thats the case I don`t need to struggle as a middle class mumbaikar i will just start living in front of ``Varsha`` and in a few years become a proud owner of a prime real estate.
I understand that not much time was given to the people before demolishing their huts, but that doesn`t mean that these hutments were legal. Is beautifying a city a crime? For Gods sake we indians have to change our mentality. If the poor has not to be suffocated, then the free-loaders should also not be tolerated. MSEB is under such strain, one of the reason is the defaulters (ministers including) and free-loaders who want electricity sans any bills.

``Time was when Maharashtra used to be one of the best-governed states in India. Bombay, though overcrowded, was a great place to live in, and one did not hear too many complaints from the other cities either..``

I`m sorry..but have you ever stepped out of the Mumbai airport ? I did when I was a kid. The scene outside was horrendous. Slums , tents , people cooking , sleeping on pavements or answering the call of nature..all on roadside.....

Oh yes...Bombay was absolutely a great place to live until this present government took up this nefarious task of demolishing these slums . I totally agree with you.

Basically you crib about privatisation. You rant about government charging for basic stuff like water. How sinister it is of the government to charge poor farmers for water/electricity , you say. But what escapes your attention is that the real tragedy is the inability of the farmers to pay for the most basic amenities provided by the state. Why are the farmers so poor ? Is it a sudden phenomenon ? Or is it because of decades of faulty government policies which inhibited private enterprise and eschewed state control ? There are no free lunches in life. Free power , free water ...can only last for so long. Ultimately somebody has to pay up. Only 2-3% of India`s population pays income tax. How much more can the state milk out of them ?

Re: # 4


Sweetie.....Mumbai has uninterrupted power.It`s the cities outside of Mumbai that are seeing load shedding and they are pissed about it.Maharashtra , statewise is twice the size of pak punjab,honey.And, don`t gloat.Karachi has seen load shedding of 20 hours a day this summer.And a day has ??...24 hours.This reactionary is giving room for all jealous , disgruntled paks to have their cheap thrills.May she rot in hades for this.

Re: # 4


``
“I`m sorry..but have you ever stepped out of the Mumbai airport ? I did when I was a kid. The scene outside was horrendous. Slums , tents , people cooking , sleeping on pavements or answering the call of nature..all on roadside.....”

There is no justification or this kind of living standards in the fourth richest country in the world. What about All those stats that gujju had been jamming up everyone’s throat? All big lies! The truth comes out. I mean Gujju had to answer the call of nature on the roadside in the fourth richest country of the world. There are slums in Bombay and I thought it was like New York! People cooking on the roadside! Why? they don’t have regular houses in the fourth richest country in world?

hp,
These slums are constructed illegally on government property be it railways, airport. Its a common knowledge that 30-40 % of mumbai lives in slum. Dharavi, is asias biggest slum, ut it is slum-cum-commercail place. A lot of tradfe takes place there. THe present gov. wanted to stop these illegal hutments but Sonia is more concerned with votes than providing law and order. THese slums will continue to rise as every day hundreds of people come to mumbai in search of work. Corruption, political favoritism just makes the problem acute.


``Why is there any poor in India when Indian IT industry makes $17 billion a year! I mean $17 billion is no joke!``

i wonder whether there are more than 2% of indian population involved in IT. Those who are are doing good. There are thousands of them who have made it big, but that doesn`t solve the employment problems. IT is still a small part of GDP.

It was interesting to see all those Indian ransacking the Electric department in Maharashtra on TV and an engineer running two ACs in his office!

Bad policies, bureacracy, impotent leadership is all I can say. Crores of rupees in terms of bills are not paid. Even the ministers are defaulters, poor people don`t expect to pay. Farmers want free power. Dabhol/Enron project got cancelled.



Ha!Ha!!Ha!!! How the mighty bite the dust!

Good for you.

First time in my life, I have to agree with Gujju! However, my motives are sincere and gujju is out to get a non RSS coalition in Maharashtra!

“I`m sorry..but have you ever stepped out of the Mumbai airport ? I did when I was a kid. The scene outside was horrendous. Slums , tents , people cooking , sleeping on pavements or answering the call of nature..all on roadside.....”

There is no justification or this kind of living standards in the fourth richest country in the world. What about All those stats that gujju had been jamming up everyone’s throat? All big lies! The truth comes out. I mean Gujju had to answer the call of nature on the roadside in the fourth richest country of the world. There are slums in Bombay and I thought it was like New York! People cooking on the roadside! Why? they don’t have regular houses in the fourth richest country in world?
Why is there any poor in India when Indian IT industry makes $17 billion a year! I mean $17 billion is no joke!
It was interesting to see all those Indian ransacking the Electric department in Maharashtra on TV and an engineer running two ACs in his office!
Gujju! show some stats!

Cayenne! How about pictures of downtown Bombay without power!

Ha!Ha!!Ha!!! How the mighty bite the dust!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I am adding name of Uma K to the list of people who BADMOUTH and DEFAME india. Watch your back Uma K !

ha ha

You hindu people should read the recent Economist report on how Indian government is grossly manipulating and exagerating the GDP figures since the last government. No wonder the miserable humanity sent the goverment of religious nuts packing home.

google to enlighten yourself.

Urstruly:
That is obviously something that Mushy taught Hindus during the bhai-bhai days. As you may remember, Pakistan is a champion in the game of cooking account books.

Urstruly...I just visited the economist website. Found no such story on India. Can you provide the link or better post the entire artile here ? I think this is just another of your juvenile tricks.

Seriously Urstruly , how old are you ? Late 30s ? 40s ? You are very immature for your age. Following in the footsteps of your great compatriot from Pakistan Mr.HP aka Hacked Penis obviously , who is most likely in his 50s but behaves like some juvenile potty mouthed 13 year old.

#6
“Mumbai has uninterrupted power.”
See Farzana Versey’s Ilog! Lie about numbers and now lying about power too!

Pakistan is a poor country. So no comparison. How could Pakistan compare with the fourth richest country in World?
How about pictures of slums…I heard that 70% of Bombay is one big slum!
How about those common toilets in all Buildings(chal?). Fertilizer factory right in the building!

It is a well known fact that India has been fudging numbers for a long time! I mean what do you expect from corrupt bureaucracy and crooked politicians.

HA1 HA!!

``3. Farmers with more than two children will have to pay one and half times the new rates.``


Why is that? Is there a penalty for having larger families?

Ref avenger123 #3

[``Time was when Maharashtra used to be one of the best-governed states in India. Bombay, though overcrowded, was a great place to live in, and one did not hear too many complaints from the other cities either..``

I`m sorry..but have you ever stepped out of the Mumbai airport ? I did when I was a kid. The scene outside was horrendous. Slums , tents , people cooking , sleeping on pavements or answering the call of nature..all on roadside.....]

Heck, why step out of the Mumbai airport? Just llok at the airport itself. People having to get out of the terminal building, get into a bus to get to the plane, etc. Yes, more employment for bus drivers, for useless persons with college degrees in humanities or economics to ensure that those who got on the bus at the terminal actually got off at the plane, etc.

I think the airport at OklahomaCity is a better airport than the one at Mumbai.

Manmohan Singh the Neutered has promised to make Bombay into Shanghai. He is more capable of making Shanghai into Bombay than the other way around.

Every frikking Commie and Liberal in India ought to be shot.

Brother Harimau:
I completely agree with you. I am currently working on compiling a list of all the liberals and commies who DEFAME, DERIDE and DISPARAGE india and/or indians. I would appreciate any inputs you or brother Avenger can provide towards my little (humble) project.

Thank you.

This article is well-intentioned, no doubt. However, the fact is that no government can ever provide a real solution to the type of problems mentioned here. Resources are limited and common sense dictates that they must first go to those who are rightfully entitled by law, otherwise why would any one have any respect for the law. Compassion has a place in human life, but one also needs to be fair, and the appeal for such compassion must be done on an individual basis, not to a government-like entity. ALL governments, given the chance, try to grab more power! Also, this power leads to arrogance and corruption! Therefore, any time a government starts getting “serious” about solving what appears to be an intractable problem; one ought to become VERY cautious.

The bottom line is - people should not have children when they don’t have the ability to provide for them or to bring them up! When they do that, they and perhaps more likely the innocent children, WILL be held accountable somehow, either by society (which would turn VERY indifferent) or by nature (e.g., the devastating effects of deforestation, etc.) It is terrible, but so is life.

#13 Harimau, will you exempt Tamil-speaking Brahmins from getting shot even if they are liberal? (Follow-on question - do you have any ``liberals`` in your own immediate family? (Remember, opposites generally attract.))

Ref BeeJay #15

[#13 Harimau, will you exempt Tamil-speaking Brahmins from getting shot even if they are liberal? (Follow-on question - do you have any ``liberals`` in your own immediate family? (Remember, opposites generally attract.)) ]

ALL English-speaking TamBrahms are Liberals/CryptoCommunists when they are not Communists outright, because they are raised on a steady diet of propaganda by ``The Anti-Hindu`` and its editor N. Ram.

I will give you a prominent example: Jairam Ramesh, who is an adviser to Sonia G@ndu.

Yes, they should be shot, except that then the collective IQ of the nation will go into negative numbers.

About opposites attracting each other, that applies only when you go into the so-called ``love`` marriages. So, the answer is schools segregated by gender all the way up to college (including college, if I have any control!) And no, my wife would not qualify as being eligible to be shot on the basis of her liberal leanings, because watching black women drop off their children on Friday evenings at the emergency room of the hospital on some pretext or other and picking them up on Monday mornings so that they didn`t have to pay for a babysitter while they partied over the weekend deprogrammed her of any socialist propaganda she was bombarded with while in India.

I have a nephew who grew up in India who, despite being practically a Communist in India and socialising with autorickshaw drivers, railway pantry car waiters and proletariat of a similar kind, is now a member of the NRA, attended the Bush inaugural and has joined the US Army Reserve! So, there is hope for these folks. All they need is the right kind of deprogramming. (Well, in this case, I think he went overboard in the opposie direction!)

Would the author support internal passports a la China so that if someone wants to come live in Bombay, he needs to have a permit? Which is how they control emigration from rural China into Beijing or other cities?

No, that would be an intrusion into the personal liberties of the citizens. However, in their eyes, it is NOT an curtailment of personal liberties in China.

Screw these people!

#13 by harimau
“why step out of the Mumbai airport? Just llok at the airport itself.”


Don’t be distraught Harimau! India is a poor country. Things will change….May be in the next millennium!! he he he…

Netizen

Calm down my friend.

Ref HP #19

[#13 by harimau
“why step out of the Mumbai airport? Just llok at the airport itself.”

Don’t be distraught Harimau!]

I am not distraught. I am outraged. This is what happens when people unqualified to run a railway station have delusions that they can run modern airports.

Kill the Commies!

In India, the name of the game is tokenism. Nothing has to be done, just raise a few empty slogans, beam for the cameras, engineer a few articles by sympathetic word prostitutes and arrange for positive coverage in the media...the job is done. Even after six decades of self-rule, governments in India are clueless about governance. So, we have Laloos oiling their lathis, Mayawatis building elephant parks, Uma Bhartis performing Yajnas and VilasRaos `beautifying` cities. Nobody ever accused them of sagacity, they`ve steered clear of any such controversial labels.

It is not that people erect their tents illegally because they want to occupy prime real estate, they have no other go. I suspect this legality logic is a charade for hiding underhand deals. Honble CM and his deputy must have got a few khokhas from real estate people. We won`t have to wait long, the lands freed of illegal presence will be sold to bhoomi dons at concessional rate and they`ll erect concrete jungles to house the affluent. Then another tent, another eviction and the game will go on.

This is a little much though.Why do we put up with wasteful spending by our satraps?.

Minister`s car worth 145 houses
Source: IANS.
Ranchi, May 10: Ministers in Jharkhand are zipping around in brand new vehicles costing a whopping Rs.64 million to the state exchequer.
After the Arjun Munda-led government came to power in March, the government decided to order bullet proof vehicles, each costing Rs.3.2 million, for all ministers citing security concerns.
Initially the government decided on Mitsubishi Lancers but after a public outcry, they settled for Tata Safaris, which were delivered to the ministers May 8. The vehicles were purchased from the police modernisation and building and construction fund.
According to an official in the building and construction department, the cost of each car was equivalent to constructing 145 houses under the Indira Awas Yojna scheme.
One minister said there was nothing wrong with the new vehicles.
``We are concerned about development of the state but it does not mean that we should move on bullock carts. Development will take time and everything cannot be changed overnight,`` a minister told IANS on the condition of anonymity.
The ministers also moved into homes of their choice and are busy renovating them.
Jharkhand was carved out of southern Bihar in 2000 after accusations that the government of undivided Bihar was neglecting development of the region.
Close to 55 percent of the state`s population lives below the poverty line as against the national average of 26 percent. The literacy rate is 54.13 percent as against the national average of 65.38 percent.
The state has only eight percent of irrigated land as against the national average of 40 percent.

http://cv.tatamotors.com/index.php

YOUR ARTICLE JUST SHOWS THE OUTCOME OF THE TROUBLE BREWING IN MAHARASHTRA. THE STATE GOVERNMENT HAD THIS COMING. THE DEMOCRATIC FRONT HAS QUITE A FEW (AN UNDERSTATEMENT) CORRUPTION CHARGES. ALL THE MONEY EARNED BY THE GOVERNMENT DISSAPEARS IN THE HANDS OF THE POLITICIANS. THE STATE IS REELING UNDER A DEBT OF SOME 11 BILLION RUPEES, THAT TOO IN THE LAST SEVEN YEARS.
THE MIGRANTS TO MUMBAI, FROM OTHER STATES, HAVE PUT A HUGE LOAD ON THE INFRASTRUCTURE, BASIC AMENETIES, TRANSPORT AND THE ABSORBING CAPACITY OF THE SOCIETY AS A WHOLE. THIS ISLAND CITY HAS REACHED ITS LIMIT. IT CANNOT HOLD ANY MORE PEOPLE ANYMORE. MUMBAI ALREADY HOUSES ASIA`S LARGEST SLUM, THE DHARAVI.
I BELEIVE THE STATE GOVERNMENT IS FINALLY HEEDING TO THE PROBLEMS THAT THE CONGRESS GOVERNMENT HAD IGNORED AND DISTANCED ITSELF FROM, IN THE LAST FIFTY YEARS. THOUGH THE WAY IT IS GOING ABOUT THE SITUATION NEEDS SOME EFFECTIVE PLANNING.

Uma:

It is good that people like you were not there to advise the Chinese, or else you would have turned Shanghai into a Bombay. You and other people thinking like you are all very good intentioned, but I am sure that the road to Hell via Dharavi is built with good intentions. Let us look at the source of your anguish:

``1) Massive hikes in water charges. The new rates will reflect ‘full recovery of cost of irrigation management, administration, operation and maintenance,’ and ‘partial recovery of capital investment.’ ``

Absolutely, a must! It is high time that people, not only Indians, stop wasting water, considering it to be a free and unlimited resource. Water should be charged on a full cost-recovery basis; however pricing should be set so that the first few daily buckets of water are practically free for everyone.

``2) In some regions, farmers will be forced to adopt expensive drip or sprinkler irrigation methods.``

A highly desirable thing to do. But government should ensure that farmers have access to loans to invest in the newer technology.

``3) Farmers with more than two children will have to pay one and half times the new rates.``

Another progressive step, as long as it has a `grandfather` clause, exempting those with already more than two children.

``4) Of the three full-time members of the Regulatory Authority, not even one is required to be a farmer.``

Wrong move. I would suggest that a majority should be active farmers.

``5) Breaking these laws will invite six months imprisonment and a fine of ten times the annual water charges``

A law without consequences for breaking it is not worth the paper it is written on.

harimou:

Jairam Ramesh is not a communist but one of the consistent supporters of reform. You should read the column he used to write for India Today. He supported most of the NDA govt.`s economic policies even when he was in the opposition.

Ref dost-mittar #24

[harimou:

Jairam Ramesh is not a communist but one of the consistent supporters of reform. You should read the column he used to write for India Today. He supported most of the NDA govt.`s economic policies even when he was in the opposition.]

Jairam Ramesh is indeed a socialist/Crypto-Communist in the Jawaharlal Nehru mode. He made the claim that the Congress Party was responsible for the Golden Quadrilateral and for the North-South and East-West Corridor 4-lane highway projects because -- get this -- the bill authorizing the establishment of the National Highway Authority of India was passed when the Congress was in power. He conveniently forgot the fact that for years, the NHAI merely hired bureaucrats (probably fulfilling the mandate to hire SC/ST/BC/MBC/OBC candidates) and then sat with its collective thumbs up its collective @rse. He also made the claim that the telecom revolution under the BJP rule was merely due to advances in technology -- as if, under 50+ years of Congress misrule, they had exploited the then existing technology and provided 100 million landline connections! He made an appearance on ``The Big Fight`` a couple of years ago and claimed that the failure of India to advance farther was merely because of the failure of India to consume 35 million tons of steel annually during the 1980s -- when the Congress had been in power except for 18 months. He conveniently forgot that steel at that time was not allowed new private investment/ownership, Tata Steel (TISCO) was being strangled by Nehruvian controls, the 35 million ton target was set in a five-year plan and its failure is indeed a failure of the plan, not to mention that the government did not have the money to build an additional 25+ million ton capacity to reach that 35 million ton goal, that there isn`t enough water to wash the bloody coal, there weren`t enough railway wagons nor track capacity to move the iron ore, coal/coke and limestone needed to make steel, etc., etc., etc.

Do not make the mistake of confusing being articulate with being intelligent. Jairam Ramesh is articulate. He appeals to the TamBrahms as he is one of them. I am surprised he appeals to you sufficiently for you to agree with him.

Re: # 26

we should outsource some things to pakistan, like highways, cricket and airports. they are good at it.


...Uh huh.NO.They are not good at it.These highways were built by Daewoo and under korean supervision.Remember what happened to Daewoo?.They went bankrupt as a result.And daewoo thought they`ll recoup their investment in pak`s roads by selling cars!.Those were the days!.Let`s take a look at them highways in another five years.We(TATA) own Daewoo trucks as a result.Hyundai was smart.They wouldn`t piss in pak.They`re selling about 250,000 plus cars a year in india alone now.Smart.

``This is what happens when people unqualified to run a railway station have delusions that they can run modern airports. ``

we should outsource some things to pakistan, like highways, cricket and airports. they are good at it.

Dost-mitter,

There is still hope for you - but that commie and dhimmi mentality due to nehruvian
training shows up now and then.
``however pricing should be set so that the first few daily buckets of water are
practically free for everyone``

You claim to be a economist - should you not factor in. how you are going to monitor
how many buckets everyone gets daily ? - will you have people standing near the
public tap counting number of buckets people will get ?

There is enough water in India - the problem is in storage and distribution
because of govt interference in pricing. Let there be competition and water
will be priced and distributed fairly and water will be available to all people.
If we can get 5 litre of clean water to every family for a rupee the number of
water borne diseases and illness can be reduced tremendously and infant
mortality will come down rapidly.

Also why does the Govt have to interfere in number of children ?

Regards,

Uma,

Where are you? what is your take so far?
Aaj ks taaja kabar....

State govt stops free power to farmers
By: Agencies
May 10, 2005

---

In view of the acute power shortage in the state, the Democratic Front government in Maharashtra today decided to discontinue its pre-poll promise of providing free power to farmers.

Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh announced this after a state cabinet meeting this afternoon.

He, however, said that the government would provide subsidised power to the farmers and reimburse Rs 1,200 crore subsidy bill every year to the Maharashtra State Electricity Board.

The Sushilkumar Shinde government, on the eve of the Assembly elections in July last year, had announced free power to over 2.5 million agricultural pumps in Maharashtra.

---

Also, during elections they promised regularisation of slums upto year 2000 (from 1996).

Re: # 30

jang and HP

link to list of auto manufacturers in india:

http://www.autoindex.org/makelist.plt?cntr=32&letter=All

link to list of auto manufacturers in pakistan:

http://www.autoindex.org/makelist.plt?cntr=33&letter=All

See how `advanced` the pak auto `industry` is compared to india`s!!!.Click and weep.

#29 mirchi, true, but look, pakis have nice highway, (who cares how they got it done?)whereas all you have to be proud of is a small 70 mile strip from panvel to shivaji nagar to show for, and the rest-stop vada-pav. oh i forgot the ``fly-overs`` in bombay.. no shit, at the end of every fly-over is a mess of super-size pot-holes. so a small 15-mile journy from seepz to downtown can take 3 hours.

Re: # 31

I humbly offer you this cutandpaste link to Hyundai Motor India`s model range.All these models are manufactured locally.India is also the sole manufacturing base for the Santro Xing model worldwide.This link does not include higher end vehicles imported like the Terracan and Tuscon SUV`s.

http://www.autoindex.org/maker.plt?no=1246


I will say no more.

#29 by cayenne
“Hyundai was smart.They wouldn`t piss in pak”

Mirchi, try to read stuff from non-RSS web sites too.

Hyundai actually were in Pakistan way before they entered India. I think it was 1987 or 1988. The problem was they could not compete with big players like Toyota, Honda and Nissan in the mid and the sub compact class. Suzuki monopolized the 1000CC class. Hyundai is still in Pakistan but not a big player. You see it is whole lot easy to sell low quality cars in India, as Indian had never seen quality cars from the world before the nineties. Toyota entered Pakistan in 1967 right after they introduced 1966 model in the US for the first time. Honda followed soon. Toyota, Honda and Nissan (datsun) were imported from Japan. Pakistani automobile customers are whole lot savvier than Indians.
Only a dumbass would like the piss! Did you rub the aftershave on your face today?

Re: # 32

Yeah, and look at all the ``fair tall and handsome pakistani people`` sitting in the savvy pakistani car.Hee haw.

The 55 year old potty mouthed juvenile fool Hacked Penis says , : ``Pakistani automobile customers are whole lot savvier than Indians.``...

You bet !!

Pakistan`s first and only indigenously built car , the swashbucking Sitara is guaranteed to deliver maximum satisfaction to the savvy Pakistani automobile enthusiast >>


WoW!!!

#29

``Hyundai was smart.They wouldn`t piss in pak``

They are pissing allover India now!

Re: # 35

The regime of govt. handouts should and must end.Period.A regime of incentives and deferments should follow this to help those who were used to handouts adjust.We in India always underestimate ourselves, rich or poor.This is the only way out.Privatization is here to stay and let us all get used to it.If we are successful, then only those who genuinely cannot provide for themselves will be left and the rest of us can provide the basics for them through a safety net program such as Social Security in the US.All NGO`s , misplaced activists and socialists can move enmasse to calcutta or even better BANGLADESH.There will be plenty of work for them for years to come.Please let the rest of india prosper and let all classes have an equal opportunity to succeed.Let the markets rule.For more than fifty years the govt. ruled.Look where it got us.Let us give the private sector a chance.Till then let us work hard at success.

Unchecked migration to Mumbai must end.I admire the people of Chennai, who through their language restrictions have checked the population growth and migration, or kept it within limits.There is equitable power distribution and rarely any power cuts in chennai metro.The world`s largest nuclear power reactor is nearing completion in TN.I was there a couple of weeks back for three days and not a single power cut anywhere in the city.Saves us mahrashtrians right for accepting hindi as our national language.Our interests should lie with the people of the konkan and deccan regions.We are one of them.

Re: # 35

``It`s amazing how an article on Maharashtra can generate an Indo-Pak war of words!! ``

It comes free with evey post ;)

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``Netizen and others, I have no quarrel with the fact that slums are illegal. Even slumdwellers would rather live with more dignity, I`m sure. But the Govt`s responsibility is not towards the tax-paying middle class alone, it is also towards all those who fall below the tax bracket (considering it is mainly because of their votes that the Govt came to power). The argument is not so much against the demolition of slums per se, as against the Govt washing its hands off the people living in them - in fact, asking them to leave Bombay. ``

I don`t think the GoM is asking them to leave Mumbai, they are just evicting them from the illegal lands that they have squatted on.

---

``If the Govt is serious about the Shanghaification of Bombay, then it has to deal with this problem from the bottom up, not top down. No amount of demolition will get rid of the slums - everyone knows this. ``

I agree with you on this. I really don`t care much of Shanghaification but would like the city to remain manageable not an open air bathroom. I wonder why the GoM doesn`t go after the corrupt civic, police officials who are hand in glove with goondas/politicains and are responsible for this mess. If rules are followed no slum would be erected. People like Athavale who promise slums (on gov. land) to the immigrants and themselves live in posh bungalows should be hounded and put behind bars.

---

``The only thing that will work is creation of viable low-cost housing - workable plans for which are already in existence. And don`t believe anyone who says that there is no land available - this is a story put out by all those who have a stake in the conversion of Bombay into a Real Estate Developers` Paradise (there are bound to be many Govt fingers in that pie). ``

Can you please elaborate on this. Who is going to provide money to construct these real estate, and once the slumdwellers are put in high rise bldg who is going to foot the maintenance bills? Would it guarantee no more immigration of poor/landless people to mumbai and no more erection of new slums (in the hope that they will also be rewarded at a later time with regularisation and/or low-cost housing).

It`s amazing how an article on Maharashtra can generate an Indo-Pak war of words!!

Netizen and others, I have no quarrel with the fact that slums are illegal. Even slumdwellers would rather live with more dignity, I`m sure. But the Govt`s responsibility is not towards the tax-paying middle class alone, it is also towards all those who fall below the tax bracket (considering it is mainly because of their votes that the Govt came to power). The argument is not so much against the demolition of slums per se, as against the Govt washing its hands off the people living in them - in fact, asking them to leave Bombay. If the Govt is serious about the Shanghaification of Bombay, then it has to deal with this problem from the bottom up, not top down. No amount of demolition will get rid of the slums - everyone knows this. The only thing that will work is creation of viable low-cost housing - workable plans for which are already in existence. And don`t believe anyone who says that there is no land available - this is a story put out by all those who have a stake in the conversion of Bombay into a Real Estate Developers` Paradise (there are bound to be many Govt fingers in that pie).

Cayenne, I cannot understand your middle class vs. poor approach. No person likes to be poor. Ask anyone who has to live in a shanty, and if he were honest, he would say that he would much prefer to pay `millions of rupees` for an apartment, if only he could afford it. And the `millions of rupees` that a middle class person pays, do not subsidise the lifestyle of the shantyman, but go into the pockets of builders and their patron politicians. A lot of it is in black, remember? Even the shantyman has to pay for his pathetic patch of filth - only he pays the local goonda (who also has his patron politician) and not the Govt. No doubt, he would be most happy to pay the Govt rather than the goonda, if he were assured of a pucca roof over his head, and the dignity that goes with it.

harimou#25:

I could not see from your post where Ramesh opposed economic reform. If he tried to claim the credit for progress for the previous govt.`s action, this is what a political spokesperson is supposed to do. In any case, even the BJP does not argue that the reform process was started by it.

satyamvada#27:

``should you not factor in. how you are going to monitor
how many buckets everyone gets daily ? - will you have people standing near the
public tap counting number of buckets people will get ?``

Water and electricity boards/companies routinely use a grading system of pricing; it`s no big deal. As for free public taps, with the long lineups, nobody using those taps can carry more than a few buckets a day. At the same time, charging full price would create greater public pressue against waste; more water is wasted, at least in Delhi, because of broken pipes and leaky faucets than by people taking water for personal use from public taps.

#35

The role of goverment is to set up a policy famework for housing development. Repeal regressive laws such as the ``rent act``. Provide incentives such as higher FSI for developers interested in ``low cost housing``. Provide means for slum dwellers to form ``housing societies``, no more PWD constructed shoddy slum rehab colonies. Most Mumbai slum dwellers are not poor or lacking incentive, all they need is a good policy framework to work in.

Slum redevelopment has to be made more attractive with clear laws that will prevent harrasment by rent-seeking goverment officials and gangsters. Yes, developers and builders will make even more money from slum rehab (and that`s a good thing).

Maharastra goverment has a cut-off date (1997?) they are not liable to resettle slum`s established after this date. I can`t see how you have an objection to this policy?

A motto of reform for all ``ex-jholawalla`s`` (myself included): ``less emotion, more pragmatism``.

Errata:

`` Most Mumbai slum dwellers are not poor or lacking incentive, all they need is a good policy framework to work in.``

should read:

Most Mumbai slum dwellers are not poor or lacking initiative, all they need is a good policy framework to work in.

#35 by uma_k5

[But the Govt`s responsibility is not towards the tax-paying middle class alone, it is also towards all those who fall below the tax bracket (considering it is mainly because of their votes that the Govt came to power).]

Huh? Even if the Government comes into power mainly because of slum-dwellers` votes, why should it shoulder their responsibilty any more than it does for the tax-paying citizen? Doesn`t this remind us of the good old socialist raj/welfare state? Are you advocating that the Govt. provide them free food and housing, and for good measure, a dole?

[And the `millions of rupees` that a middle class person pays, do not subsidise the lifestyle of the shantyman, but go into the pockets of builders and their patron politicians. A lot of it is in black, remember?]

This wasn`t needed at all. Not every middle class guy has tons of black money, most of them loan money from the banks.

Slums should be demolished but the people who hoodwinked the slum dwellers should be punished big time.

It`s sad that poor people bear the brunt of breaking the law but the rich ones escape unhurt.

Ref Netizen #40

[....If rules are followed no slum would be erected. People like Athavale who promise slums (on gov. land) to the immigrants and themselves live in posh bungalows should be hounded and put behind bars.]

Nope. 10,000 slumdwellers should show up three times a day and sh!t and piss inside his compound. Same thing goes for people like Teesta Setalvad, Uma K, Amrita Rajan, Amit, Sonia Gandhi (who stopped the demolition of Bombay slums), Medha Patkar, Jyothi Basu, Buddhadeb Bhattacharya, Prakash Karat, etc. Anybody who so much as says `Boo` to the elimination of illegality should be given a dose of their own (or in this case somebody else`s) crap.

Ref dost-mittar #38

[harimou#25:

I could not see from your post where Ramesh opposed economic reform. If he tried to claim the credit for progress for the previous govt.`s action, this is what a political spokesperson is supposed to do. In any case, even the BJP does not argue that the reform process was started by it.]

I don`t need to read the columns of somebody who has no regard for truth.

I don`t believe that ``Doesn`t it feel good now that I have stopped raping you`` is a good excuse for 50 years of misrule. You, on the other hand, seem to belong to the school of thought that says, ``If rape is inevitable, lie down and enjoy it.``

Re: # 46

``shivsena made big bucks erecting hosing for dharaviwallas``

I remember SS promising houses to slum-dwellers during Manohar Joshis time. What I remeber is the idea went bust because of drop in real estate value.

shivsena made big bucks erecting hosing for dharaviwallas, but the reality is that no dharaviwallah wants to go live in tenements in salt yards of mulund which are too far away from his/her employmet place. so they sell these to other more newer entrants.

http://us.rediff.com/money/2005/may/11hyundai1.htm

If Hyundai keeps pissing like this in India we certainly welcome it :)

Hyundai to invest $700 mn in India

May 11, 2005 17:31 IST


Hyundai Motors India Ltd, a subsidiary of the Korean auto giant, will achieve the critical one million mark in car sales in India by March 2006 and is likely to pump in about $700 million over the next three years to expand production capacity at its plant near Chennai.

cayenne, but the paki expressway is still much longer, older and better than the bombay-poona (or is it panvel-shivaji nagar). so time to outsource..pronto.

Mirchi to mirchi laggi!

They call this an automobile in India!

Re: # 52

Nice try Mr.Sour Grapes.Why don`t you take a ride on a ``Qing-qi`` derived contraption, emitting black smoke from it`s 1955 chinese derived one-banger.OR, even better , how about a `Revo` an 80`s Wu-ling derived breadbox that is still yet to get off the ground!!.You`ll have to wait like for everything else in pakland.

A minor correction to set the mirchi on fire permanently!

Mirchi KO mirchi laggi!

Ref HP #51

[They call this an automobile in India!]

Nope, it is called an auto for an autorickshaw, not an automobile. Nice try but no dice!

HP

Take a ride on this!.Oh no you can`t!.You live in a country where you have to wait to take delivery of a Suzuki 800 breadbox.Take a look, anyways.


http://www.autoindex.org/bodies.plt?no=2501&ass=

http://www.autoindex.org/news.plt?no=789

Why worry?.This is the reason we have a central govt..All reactionaries and misplaced do-goodniks may move to BANGLADESH.Please.Thank you.


NDTV Correspondent

Thursday, May 12, 2005 (New Delhi):


The Centre today assured Maharashtra that it would provide as much as 1,210 MW of electricity, including 610 MW at normal rates to the state to tide over the situation.

The state has been reeling under an acute power crisis.

An assurance to this effect was given by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh after a 40-minute meeting which deliberated on short-term measures to address the problem.

Deshmukh told reporters that out of the 610 MW, 300 MW would come from Kawas project in Gujarat and 250 MW from Tarapur nuclear power plant. (PTI)

http://www.ndtv.com/homepage/default.asp

One more automobile in India! But where is the auto? It is in Korea....Marchi pulling it for the time being...

The nuances in the populist rhetoric about Maharashtra`s roadmap towards progress tell us a lot about where the State is going....Ponder over this:

Long time ago the dream was to convert Konkan into California. It was soon realized that that was too far to go. Maharashtra politicians started talking about converting Girangaon (Girgaum or Mumbai) into Singapore. That also now looks too distant and at this moment we are chasing Shanghai!

It saddens one to realize that Shanghai and Mumbai were almost on par in the early 1950. Perhaps, Mumbai was a little ahead of Shanghai. The distance between the two of them has widened so much by now that Shanghai is held forth as a desirable goal for Mumbai to catch up with!

#57,

It might be an automobile to you cave dwellers but to us it is simply a bullock cart :)

Pakistanis must be in awe of choolhas too thinking they are microwaves.

Indians should take the lead in bringing civilization to our primitive neighbors in the west.

#50 Jang,

we will outsource to south korea and Daewoo. What do you think?

HP has carried this too far!!.I need to now how to post pics in these boxes,i am computer illiterate.The schmo has posted pics of villagers in Rajasthan , i guess, `cause of the camel.I got pics of interesting contraptions that roam the metros of pak-i-stan.Help!!.To arms my brothers!!.Maharastra`s got power from Delhi, so this essay`s moot anyways.

Re: # 62

This again, is a pic of Dhaka.

Here is a picture from the world`s forth richest country. Does this seem civilized to you MaheshG2 ? Na, it must be an ISI conspiracy.

#62,

It does not seem civilized to me but it obviously does to you. Ask HP. He will tell you that the picture is of a couple of automobiles.

That`s why I say we Indians should take the lead in bringing civilization to the cave dwellers in our west.

Re: # 64

This is a pic of Dhaka.

You are both blind and dumb. I hope this picture will help you embrace the reality. These guys are washing in the crap water. This picture is from your beautiful BOMBAY.

HP ,

You are a fool to let your hatred for India blind you to the present realities. I know you are an old man...in your youth , I am sure India was a very poor country , and Pakistan was far better off relatively. So its understandable that you find it difficult to reconcile yourself to the new realities.

No amount of posting pictures of 1970s era autorickshaws or bulluck carts will take away the fact that automobiles worth $5billion were sold in India last year. Dozens of companies , both Indian and non-India compete for this fast expanding and highly evolved market. Over 2-3 dozen brand new models of various cars of several companies are available today.

Indian companies like Mahindra and Tata Motors export cars and SUVs to Europe and South America.Cars like these >>

Indigo Marina (Tata)


Indigo


Tata Indica V2


Tata Safari (SUV)


You posted a picture of a Mahindra Autorickshaw of the 1970s vintage ..(days of your youth)....Now see for yourself how far the company has come...from making autorickshaws to manufacturing Sport Utility Vehicles (suv) that are exported to Europe...

Mahindra Scorpio

Re: # 66

God bless you avenger.

Check this description of pak roads..................

Driving in Pakistan: If you can - dont drive
Written NukeDoc on September 24, 2004.


by NukeDocAlthough there are some good roads in Pakistan (The motorway between Islamabad and Lahore, the road to Murree), most of the roads in Pakistan are more like a dirt bike track than anything asphalt. Extremely hazardous road constructions, no lines markings, no direction signs, big potholes, and on top of that absolutely reckless drivers. Roads are officially declared war zones and even if you are very careful someone else driving a 10 ton truck would maul you over.

http://www.virtualtourist.com/travel/Asia/Pakistan/Transportation-Pakistan-Driving_in_Pakistan-BR-1.html#3

This link has some pics of vehicles in pakistan.heehaw.

Link to pics of Mumbai/suburbs

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=198981

Haideri...

Some wonderful pictures of Pakistan , just for you ..


Images of Pakistan....


1.

Pakistani women and their impeccable sense of fasion....


2.

Lahore Basant....

3.

Lahore socialites....

4.

Life in Pakistan...

5.

More sights of Lovely Lahore....

6.

Typical means of transport in Lahore

Plight of children in Pakistan >>

#64,

I really feel sorry for you that you think that photo is beautiful. My dear sir, that is called a slum.

God knows what knows what kind of lives you lead in Pakistan that you think that slum is beautiful.

I think the time to civilize Pakistan is near. No more dilly dallying. Bring some sunshine into the pathetic lives of our neighbors in our west.

Here is a picture from your beautiful capital DEHLI taken in 2004. The human pulled Rickshaw must be height of civilization.

Haideri`s mom >>

#71,

a clearer picture emerges of Pakistanis.

They think:

1) Slums are beautiful.

2) Bullock carts are automobiles.

3) Human pulled Rickshaws are the height of civilization.

Poor fellows. I really feel for them. It`s time to liberate them from the clutches of misery and show them how the world has changed outside of Pakistan.

#71,

a clearer picture emerges of Pakistanis.

They think:

1) Slums are beautiful.

2) Bullock carts are automobiles.

3) Human pulled Rickshaws are the height of civilization.

Poor fellows. I really feel for them. It`s time to liberate them from the clutches of misery and show them how the world has changed outside of Pakistan.

This is how a Pakistani `car` looks like >>

Re: # 76

Dude, this is the only highway you guys got.And, your capital`s main thouroughfare which looks like an avenue in one of our second tier cities.Click on this link for the Mumbai-pune expressway and this is only one of the many.

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=164136&page=18&pp=20

Cayene, you must be referring to these roads. Enjoy







Enjoy

Re: # 78

I feel sorry for you man.This is typical pak grandstand.When cornered , b8tch and moan.

Marchi!

still on fire?

Get a life dude! you got nothing!

750 Million poor. 70% of the country lives in villages. Main mode of transportation: animal driven carts. Beggers roam the streets of every city. ten beggers per car. ...
I mean bud your whole life is ruined in that country...
One bathroom per chaal and still no running water. Ugh!

Re: # 81

Last week most of the cows in old Delhi metro areas were shipped out.The first pic. is a street scene in old Delhi.We`re a democracy and sometimes the people carry things too far.Yet, the local govt. has to weigh citizen`s rights against social responsibility.So, the courts gave permission to cart the cows out and it was done.There was no opposition form the metro dwellers.They knew they were doing something illegal by keeping the cows in metro areas , till they could get away with it.Same with the Mumbai slum saga.The matter is now in the court.Once the courts give the ok, no social activist nor squatter can stop it.The last one is a rural pic.Ever been to Switzerland.Herds of cows will cross the street in their rural areas.Everyone waits patiently and then moves on.

This is the Mumbai i know........link

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=159501

Indian moms on the road

`` when Maharashtra used to be one of the best-governed states in India. ``

It used to true until the mid-1980s

`` This year, Maharashtra is up for grabs as the worst-governed state. Vilasrao and gang seem to be well on the home stretch, without trying too hard. His vice-captain, R.R. Patil, is making sure of that. ``

It is hard to beat Bihar

`` In December last year, the Govt. took action to transform Mumbai into Shanghai. About three lakh people had their meagre homes destroyed, and were told to ‘go back where you came from.’ As bulldozers demolished around 70,000 slum dwellings, the city Corporation requested that the names of the newly homeless be struck off the electoral rolls. ``

We can argue about the pros and cons of the govt measure. Don`t you think the government enforced property rights ?

`` Then came the Bar Girls’ saga. Reacting to the case of a young man who had murdered his grandmother for money to lavish on a bar dancer, R.R. Patil announced that all the dance bars in the state would be shut down, throwing 75,000 bar dancers and innumerable other people – waiters, cooks, cleaners, etc., out of work. The Govt. did make some noises about rehabilitating the girls and providing them with alternate employment, but when educated people don’t have jobs, what can the Govt. do for these semi-literate girls? One of the bar dancers declared unequivocally on TV that they would have no option but to turn to prostitution if the bars were closed down. So much for moral policing! ``

I want to know what happens to the money spent on bar girls. It is going to be spent somewhere. What happens to the bar girls when they get old ? Does the author care for their plight ?

`` 1) Massive hikes in water charges. The new rates will reflect ‘full recovery of cost of irrigation management, administration, operation and maintenance,’ and ‘partial recovery of capital investment.’ ``

Clean Water is not free resource. Unless people pay the market value for the water it will not be utilized properly.

`` 3) Farmers with more than two children will have to pay one and half times the new rates.``
Somebody has to enforce population control.


`` 5) Breaking these laws will invite six months imprisonment and a fine of ten times the annual water charges. ``

Any bias against enforcement of laws !!!

`` Seen against the backdrop of last year’s drought and the consequent suicides by farmers in some regions of Maharashtra, this Bill is truly monstrous. For farmers who are already deep in debt, unable to pay even the old charges, the provisions of this Bill are a death-knell. Agriculture, the poor farmer’s only source of survival, will become totally unviable. Small holdings will be gobbled up by rich landowners, and thousands, maybe lakhs of people, will be rendered landless. And no prizes for guessing where many of them will end up in their quest to earn a living. ``

What makes you think small farms are viable long term in WTO era ?

`` I refuse to believe that these possibilities would not have struck Vilasrao and gang. And if The question is, will the burgeoning numbers of the poor, continue to agree to remain invisible, as all good poor people should? Maybe Vilasrao will enlighten us in due course. ``

One one hand you complain about the increasing number of poor people. On the other hand the software and call center industries complain about the lack of cheap labor. Are we missing something ?

cayenne #37

`` Unchecked migration to Mumbai must end.I admire the people of Chennai, who through their language restrictions have checked the population growth and migration, or kept it within limits.There is equitable power distribution and rarely any power cuts in chennai metro.The world`s largest nuclear power reactor is nearing completion in TN.I was there a couple of weeks back for three days and not a single power cut anywhere in the city.Saves us mahrashtrians right for accepting hindi as our national language.Our interests should lie with the people of the konkan and deccan regions.We are one of them. ``

The TNEB is relatively well run compared to most other electricity boards.

I do not think Chennai has any restrictions on migration. There is a large Telugu minority.

Rich/middle class North Indians would prefer to live eleswhere because people in Chennai do not speak Hindi and Chennai is socially conservative compared to Mumbai/Delhi. For poor North Indians Chennai is farther than Delhi/Mumbai and it is hard to survive without knowledge of English/Tamil.

#82 by bbabu on May 12, 2005 6:35pm PT
1) Massive hikes in water charges. The new rates will reflect ‘full recovery of cost of irrigation management, administration, operation and maintenance,’ and ‘partial recovery of capital investment.’ ``

Clean Water is not free resource. Unless people pay the market value for the water it will not be utilized properly.

---

I agree wholeheartedly.People in the West have uninterrupted water supply, `cause they pay through their a**eholes for it.I want to see this author`s face when she sees an American monthly water bill for a single family house.And, they pay for sewage, for heating(gas or oil), for yard maintenance AND taxes.Or, monthly maintenance if the dwelling is a co-op apartment.It`s a wonder India is where it is , despite freeloaders and those who live off them, like activists and do-goodniks.

Re: # 86

Avenger, you can dream on. It is not a fenced highway and your Gao matas can cross it left and right. Pay attention to the pics I posted the highway is fenced.

Haideri...Indian roads are way better than puki roads. See this.The Pune-Mumbai express highway >>



< img src = ``http://www.amitkulkarni.info/pics/expressway/expressway-photographs/expressway_malavi_bridge_2.JPG``>

HP aka Hijra Paki .....concentration of poverty in India is lot lower than in Pakistan. India has the higher per capita , higher literacy and better human development indices than Pakistan.

those expressway pics are amazing.. no hyundai-santros (or any other cars, except for the lonely TRAX milk-wagon) that indian roads are claimed to be full of. whats wrong with this picture?

Re# 87

Take a look at the ``civilized and rich`` country`s laundry (It is located in Bombay)

Haideri,

I can just see the jealousy brimming over in your posts.

Are there no laundry facilities in Pakistan? Civilized and Rich country like India can afford to have many.

Rep # 91
Over one billion living on a small piece of land, you call this living? Go all the way down in the posts and see who started the pissing match.

#92 by haideri on May 13, 2005 10:25am PT
HP..I`ve seen dhobi ghats in pakistan.They`re smaller and dirtier.What`s so wrong about this picture?.These people are plying a trade they have been doing for centuries.P**s off.Some people swear by the dhobi, but there are large sections of the population that use washing machines.So??.And, India is the seventh largest nation in the world.Again, p**s off.

Re: # 102

Oh!!.Now you`re trying to backtrack and pretend to be nice.Typical pak manouvering.Nice try.You and your puny little country can take a hike.You cannot deny that little boys are molested and sold for sex on the streets of Lahore and Karachi.Ask me and i`ll back it up by pasting a link.I don`t like to wash your dirty in linen in public, unlike your classless self. Isn`t it time you went to bed, `little` one, from the little country on our western flanks.Good night.

Re: # 99

Netizen,

What you just said in few lines makes much more sense than what ``cayenne`` has been spewing for last few hours. I am not a ``Mullah`` Muslim and what Mohammad did was absolutely wrong. This practice is still alive in some parts of rural India and Pakistan.

Re: # 96

``According to some research, child prostitution is socially acceptable in some sections of Indian society through the practice of Devdasi. Young girls are given to the `gods` and they become a religious prostitute. ``

Thanks Haideri for pointing out the decadence in indian society. We have a lot of work to do. Its poverty which is a significant factor which has to be confronted. But its easy said then done.

`` was trying to draw your attention to the ``civilized`` practice of Devdasi. ``

There cannot be any justification for this kind of system. There are laws against it. But in a county like india laws can be broken with bribe/influence/muscle power. I hope you also do not condone Mohammad marriage to little girl, Ayesha with some nonsensical excuse. We need to be rational.

Also, you can point to the AIDS problem that is growing in India.